PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

Well, the truth is that you must know how to defend in real life to defend properly in PES 2012.

*FIRST OF ALL, USING 'SEMI' FOR PLAYER SWTICHING IS A MUST*

I'll give you the first example:

1) One-Twos:

You are controlling Zambrotta. Hulk plays a 1-2 down your wing and Nesta is a bit too far:

..Nesta................
...........................
..........Falcao.......
..................\........
...Zambrotta..Hulk.....

There are two mistakes you can make here:

a) Use Zambrotta to mark Falcao.
In real life, Zambrotta's mission is to mark Hulk. If Falcao is unnmarked (nesta is too far), that is not his problem. Once Hulk has passed the ball and started running, Zambrotta has to chase Hulk. Otherwise he won't mark neither Hulk or Falcao, who is really Nesta's problem.

b) Switch to Nesta.
While Falcao has space, he still has Nesta ahead. If you switch to Nesta and engage him, AI Zambrotta will leave a gap for Hulk.

So, What you have do is to keep controlling Zambrotta, forget about the ball and chase Hulk. Use the 2nd player pressure button to close the gap between Nesta and Falcao.

If this helped anyone, I'll post other defensive scenarios.
 
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gergerger said:
Well, the truth is that you must know how to defend in real life to defend properly in PES 2012.

*FIRST OF ALL, USING 'SEMI' FOR PLAYER SWTICHING IS A MUST*

I'll give you the first example:

1) One-Twos:

You are controlling Zambrotta. Hulk plays a 1-2 down your wing and Nesta is a bit too far:

..Nesta................
...........................
..........Falcao.......
..................\........
...Zambrotta..Hulk.....

There are two mistakes you can make here:

a) Use Zambrotta to mark Falcao.
In real life, Zambrotta's mission is to mark Hulk. If Falcao is unnmarked (nesta is too far), that is not his problem. Once Hulk has passed the ball and started running, Zambrotta has to chase Hulk. Otherwise he won't mark neither Hulk or Falcao, who is really Nesta's problem.

b) Switch to Nesta.
While Falcao has space, he still has Nesta ahead. If you switch to Nesta and engage him, AI Zambrotta will leave a gap for Hulk.

So, What you have do is to keep controlling Zambrotta, forget about the ball and chase Hulk. Use the 2nd player pressure button to close the gap between Nesta and Falcao.

If this helped anyone, I'll post other defensive scenarios.
Click to expand...

Good post, i agree with this.


EDIT Sorry about the double post but for some reason i cant delete one.
 
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What needs sorting is as always - online play

Now I know that Konami servers suck big time, but really, there are serious pathetic issues here in PES 2011 that need fixed for PES 2012

1: the fact that that always red dot thing at the top of the screen has never budged from red for ANYONE
2: in lobbies, it takes about 1 to 2 minutes before you can see what colour connection a set up room has
3: that bloody glitch where the pricks pass back to the CMF then wait whilst their CF sprints past ur defence who are all running around like headless chickens

SORT IT !!!
 
danyjr said:
Brilliant post Alien. I'd just like to expand on the dribbling issue and say that it is not just good dribbling skills that have become a standard for the majority of players, but it is also passing, crossing, shooting and pretty much the whole individuality of players that has been watered down. I played Vidić on right wing last night, just out of curiosity, where I dribbled passed Robinho, whipped a cross with left foot which went to Berbatov for a free header. Now this is the type of thing that won't even happen in FIFA (or will it?). Don't even get me started on supper accurate shooting and ping-pong/flair passing.

I feel the mistake is on Konami's part when gathering feedback. For all the issues (and some huge ones) PES 2011 had, for me it looked like a new birth to the series because I thought PES was back to their old philosophy, what it was known for with player individuality and tactics being the core of the game. But instead of improving on what was built, they changed hell of a lot of the game, some good, some bad and some ugly, but overall I dare say, at least for me Seabass and co lost the plot this year. There's hope that the actual game is more true to PES than this first demo but I won't be putting my money on it. :(
Click to expand...


I'll be honest, I'm on the exact same wavelength as you and shorty alien. I moaned enough over the last couple of weeks to convince myself it must all be in my head since no-one else seems bothered by it. It's such a huge problem in the first demo that I really, really do hope it's been toned down come release day. I'm actually staggered that it's barely caused debate on here or WENB.

For a series that heralds individuality as a fundamental of the game, why has it took such a step backwards? Dribbling and turning is the stand-out problem, but like you said passing and shooting is much alike too.

Professional players don't turn like tanks, granted, but Gattusso shouldn't be able to fucking skip past two or three players on a whim, no chance. UGHH. :RANT:
 
First next gen demo of Pes that i dont delete after one or two games...I have played about 300 games alone and with friends in my ps3 using the new side cam only and all manual with zero pass assistance.First Pes that clicks me again after the Ps2 days,but i think some things are so wrong:

* Default zero speed is arcade fast,the right speed is somewhere between -2 and -1
* Generally good shooting but easy long goals due to keepers bugs.Some goals are absurd because of the incorrect body position when you shoot
* Headers are really bad,in animation,feeling and so static
* Absurd 180 degree passes with zero assistance and not very good players find easily the target
* Crossing in the box even with no assistance and with L2 modifier is always strong even if you tap it...You cant chip the ball in space for a player when crossing in the box
* Keepers : I dont really mind they concede ridiculous goals due to the '' i dont want to make a litle step and save the ball'' bug,but they concede goals with no style at all sometimes...and with style i mean some new descent animations.And this for me destroys some really good shots at occasionally ...because a good shot feeling depends not only from the shooter but from the keeper reaction sometimes

These are my major gripes with the first demo and i hope some of them are not in the final version,or be better.It would be a pity because i feel Pes this year found a little of his old magic
 
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no do not change the defending Konami there is nothing wrong with it.

- Individuality is lost? Bullshit.

- Players like Flamini can glide past you like Messi? Yes because you can't defend and became to accustomed to holding down R1+ X
I noticed Gattuso running rings around me when I approached defending PES2011 style or grew impatient. Lately when I play the demo and conceed I see iit as a fault on my side.

- there is no error in passing. Bullshit I've seen it and experienced it 100 times. I've noticed it is a little inconsistent when pressing lightly and the ball flying too fast but its not 100% accurate on 0 setting from my experience.
 
People need to stop constantly arguing that defending is under-powered, i strongly believe that defending in pes 2012 while difficult at times, requires you to think like football player or team when defending.

Ive been forcing the A.I. to make mistakes by simply cutting out passing lanes, crowding out targets and anticipating where the ball may be passed to and then intercepting it.

Its a learning process people, not bragging, but i beat Milan on top player with napoli 3:1 by playing an extremely contained and well thought out gameplan via a process of timing attacks during the the game and deciding when to let the AI maintain possession and force them to commit forward so I could go on a quick counter.

Take it slow and the you will find gaps to score or set up some nice plays, when defending make sure you always cover central areas and target men. Also its imperative that you adjust the formation depending on the score line and time left in the match. If you are leading with 10 minutes to go, adjust and bring back more defenders into deeper positions and sub out those that fatigued.

Good Luck in mastering the new defensive system
 
zeemeister said:
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no do not change the defending Konami there is nothing wrong with it.

- Individuality is lost? Bullshit.

- Players like Flamini can glide past you like Messi? Yes because you can't defend and became to accustomed to holding down R1+ X
I noticed Gattuso running rings around me when I approached defending PES2011 style or grew impatient. Lately when I play the demo and conceed I see iit as a fault on my side.

- there is no error in passing. Bullshit I've seen it and experienced it 100 times. I've noticed it is a little inconsistent when pressing lightly and the ball flying too fast but its not 100% accurate on 0 setting from my experience.
Click to expand...
This post is 100% correct in my opinion, because you do need to learn how to defend like you would in a real game. I play on one bar passing assistance. If a pass goes astray it is generally because i didn't aim it properly, so like defensive mistakes, it is usually my fault (as mentioned above), when the AI scores.
On a different note, three days at work to go, then come wednesday - release of the second demo. Absolutely massive, bring it on.
 
Right, for the guy who wants low socks, i want some mud to go on them socks. Some long tape and untucked shirts. Also bandage on heads and tissue jammed up nose's when the have a head clash.:P
 
zeemeister said:
No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no do not change the defending Konami there is nothing wrong with it.

- Individuality is lost? Bullshit.

- Players like Flamini can glide past you like Messi? Yes because you can't defend and became to accustomed to holding down R1+ X
I noticed Gattuso running rings around me when I approached defending PES2011 style or grew impatient. Lately when I play the demo and conceed I see iit as a fault on my side.

- there is no error in passing. Bullshit I've seen it and experienced it 100 times. I've noticed it is a little inconsistent when pressing lightly and the ball flying too fast but its not 100% accurate on 0 setting from my experience.
Click to expand...

You chaps would have an argument if I had an issue with defending, but I don't, I think the new system is sublime and one of the of the best inclusions this year....

I'm not talking about the CPU coming at me with Gauttuso. I'm talking about ME controlling him and feeling like I'm in charge of some pirouetting 19 year old wonderkid and not an aging holding midfielder. Whats the purpose of utilising the most skillful players in your squad when all of them have the technique and agility of 1970s Brazil? Sure, Messi is even more slippery than others, but he's heavily devalued when any old CB can beat his man with ease.

None of this is to do with difficulty or gameplay imbalances. It's about individuality being sacrificed for a more fluid, casual friendly game which I ain't happy about.

And of course there's passing errors, what I'm saying is it barely differs from player to players. Like you said, if I misplace a pass it's my fault, it isn't because I'm using Penarol's reserve fullback who should be more prone to mistakes than Seedorf and Boateng....
 
Whoever complained at the WENB video's that defending is bad obviously does not watch any real football. Just watch a game and see how many mistakes defenders make. Bad decisions, bad passes, bad positioning, overcommitting, sliding when they should jockey.

I don't want robots like on FIFA where they shadow your every move. Granted, I don't want to be able to beat a defender every time I go forward. Unless you're winning every game I don't think you can complain about the defenders?
 
Rodelero said:
we need to get to the stage where you feel that taking players on is more risky... but without losing the thing which 2012 gets right where 2011 failed, in the ability to punish over-pressing.

I absolutely adore the way this game punishes you for charging in.

I'm not quite happy with the difficulty of making a tackle when you don't charge in -

and making the dribbling just slightly less sharp, and hopefully making lesser players less good at dribbling.
Click to expand...

One of the points you mentioned is exactly right. Its not about charging in, even if you patiently wait and hold off to time your tackle, you are at a disadvantage as a defender because almost every player can turn on a sixpence, there is little risk/reward for the dribblers, the game is targeted towards reward-reward-reward for direct dribbling, and reduced individuality compared to previous versions.

In an attempt to punish the extreme pressure abusers they've gone too far in the other direction. I know how to defend, I'm not a simpleton. I don't charge in haphazardly and I don't abuse the pressure system. I've honed my techniques and practiced excessively with PES 2010 and 2011, but defense has been disregarded in this version. The delay function is too random and skilless.

For those that love end to end ding dong attacking play I'm sure it will feel great, but for those that have actually learned the art of defending and tactical positioning, they've hung them out to dry.

When this game goes online it'll be clearer to see. People thought the Messi/Ronaldo abusers were bad in previous versions, now they have a game that is built to favour them.
 
Defending in PES is best archieved by closing spaces and shrinking the space between your lines. It is a complete evolution from PES2011.

When you attack, you can't just bomb forward until you score. With defending it's the same thing now: you can't just chase the attacker and disposses him.

Personally, I don't use the R2+X, I tried it but I don't feel the need to use it. To me, it's all about defensive movements and intelligent player switching.

A few tips:

• Learn to foul.
Fouling is vital to interrupt the pace of the AI. When you lose shape, you have to cut play before the AI builds momentum.

• Trust the slide tackle.
There is a reason why players slide tackle in real life. Try to figure out why, and most important, when.

• Learn when to apply pressure.
You have to master the 2nd player pressure button. Keep in mind that your player will be likely to leave a gap. This wasn't too important in PES 2011, where defending was mostly physical and individual. Now, it involves mastering your team shape.

• Read the final pass before the first one.
Learn to foresee what is the intention of the AI. It is always advisable to prevent the final move rather than the first one: you have to know where to concede space, and where to deny it.

• NEVER leave a gap in the centre of your defense.
I bet you see a lot of goals where an AI player runs straight between your CB and scores. I also bet you can't score that way against the AI. This is YOUR fault. This gaps is often generated by a breach in the central are of your midfield.

• Force the AI to the sides.
When marking individually, always protect the central side of the pitch. Don't let the AI pass you through the middle. Force them to the sides.
 
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As I've said, I don't have a problem defending in previous versions, when to double up and use pressure, when to hold back, when to track runners, when to cover spaces, when to time tackles, when to use body balance to muscle players off the ball without fouling them etc.

Those tips are good for people who cannot defend, but I can defend, and regularly get results against Barca/Real online with weaker teams. But it doesn't take a genius to work out that they've given the advantage to the attackers this year. Defending really was an art form in previous games, but not judging from this demo.
 
shorty alien said:
One of the points you mentioned is exactly right. Its not about charging in, even if you patiently wait and hold off to time your tackle, you are at a disadvantage as a defender because almost every player can turn on a sixpence, there is little risk/reward for the dribblers, the game is targeted towards reward-reward-reward for direct dribbling, and reduced individuality compared to previous versions.

In an attempt to punish the extreme pressure abusers they've gone too far in the other direction. I know how to defend, I'm not a simpleton. I don't charge in haphazardly and I don't abuse the pressure system. I've honed my techniques and practiced excessively with PES 2010 and 2011, but defense has been disregarded in this version. The delay function is too random and skilless.

For those that love end to end ding dong attacking play I'm sure it will feel great, but for those that have actually learned the art of defending and tactical positioning, they've hung them out to dry.

When this game goes online it'll be clearer to see. People thought the Messi/Ronaldo abusers were bad in previous versions, now they have a game that is built to favour them.
Click to expand...

You see why I don't necessarily disagree with your summation regarding 2012, I think you're far too lenient on 2011's system which was thoroughly clumsy. My knowledge of 2010's system is minimal as I didn't have 2010. To me, 2011's was about as difficult to hold back and defend successfully as it is in 2012, but much, much easier to charge in.

Playing against friends locally on 2011 was a situation where, while it wasn't as pressure centric as FIFA 10 and 11, was still more pressure than patience. For me this is why the current system needs some intelligent tweakery rather than people going overboard with the level of criticism. The delay is an odd one too - I don't so much have a problem with the delay - it does what I expect a lot better than 2011's system which was at best inaccessible and at worst almost unworkable.

One of the things I find most jarring is, when I want to tackle my ideal intention is to consider the relative speed of the attacker and my player. I want that relative speed to be as slow as possible when my guy gets into range, thus giving my player the most time possible to make the tackle. Actually slowing down to that speed is nearly impossible because there is no slower-than-jockeying-backwards-speed, so what I tend to fall into is a sort of awkward move back, stop, move back, stop system to try and get a very slow movement pace.

I wonder if having a slower-movement-modifier, or, perhaps analogue sensitivity in the midstick area would help? (ie, if I half push to the left I go half as quickly).

The over side of the coin as you guys are saying is the dribbling. I don't have a huge amount of problem at the top end players - Robinho for example - but if we could have more differentiation as you go down in player attribute that would improve things a lot. Of course, making the defending a little easier could have quite a drastic effect on how 'easy' dribbling with players is perceived to be.

Two days before the full demo comes out - and once it does... then the real discussion should begin.
 
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Sort of off topic but I have really been able to defend better on FIFA by not controlling a particular player too often and just letting the defence do it's job and maintain it's shape. Maybe that kind of thing will help a lot on PES this year.

You have to concede some time away from the ball. Trying to win the ball back all the time and too quickly is a recipe for disaster when the opposition is good and able to punish you. Your shape goes all over the place and you can get skinned. Sometimes you only need to make one tackle, and it's near your penalty box.
 
I know, mate. It was clear alredy that you have a point of view about defending, rather than not knowing how to defend. I also think that the first demo is a little bit balanced towards the attackers.

I just played a Manchester vs CF.America, as America, and lost 0-2, but defended really well. It was a logical game to lose, and I'm satisfied it turned out like that. Had my chances when I was 0-1 down, but couldn't really worry De Gea. I commited eight fouls to interrupt United, with only one of them resulting in a direct free kick (brilliantly saved by Ochoa). Not even once did United break through the middle of my defense. They scored by a long shot and a cross.

The point is (not for you, but for anyone seeking advice): LEARN TO PLAY DIRTY. Run into AI players from behind or the sides, make collisions. It might take a while until you learn to time them right.
 
gergerger said:
Defending in PES is best archieved by closing spaces and shrinking the space between your lines. It is a complete evolution from PES2011.

When you attack, you can't just bomb forward until you score. With defending it's the same thing now: you can't just chase the attacker and disposses him.

Personally, I don't use the R2+X, I tried it but I don't feel the need to use it. To me, it's all about defensive movements and intelligent player switching.

A few tips:

• Learn to foul.
Fouling is vital to interrupt the pace of the AI. When you lose shape, you have to cut play before the AI builds momentum.

• Trust the slide tackle.
There is a reason why players slide tackle in real life. Try to figure out why, and most important, when.

• Learn when to apply pressure.
You have to master the 2nd player pressure button. Keep in mind that your player will be likely to leave a gap. This wasn't too important in PES 2011, where defending was mostly physical and individual. Now, it involves mastering your team shape.

• Read the final pass before the first one.
Learn to foresee what is the intention of the AI. It is always advisable to prevent the final move rather than the first one: you have to know where to concede space, and where to deny it.

• NEVER leave a gap in the centre of your defense.
I bet you see a lot of goals where an AI player runs straight between your CB and scores. I also bet you can't score that way against the AI. This is YOUR fault. This gaps is often generated by a breach in the central are of your midfield.

• Force the AI to the sides.
When marking individually, always protect the central side of the pitch. Don't let the AI pass you through the middle. Force them to the sides.
Click to expand...

Amen. I am very pleased with the defending system. You've articulated my feelings far better than I could have.
 
Yeah, i agree about turning while dribbling is over the top. I guess it is basically about the scaling of player dribbling related that Konami should get it right, for example, to be toned down. As Rod says "more differentiation". I play on PC, so attributes will get right after release via community patches.

I have a question for people that complains about passing being too accurate for even 1 or 0 bar. What exactly do you want to see : more error so your passes miss more frequently ? :P Kidding what i have been thinking is remember the system in PES 6,5 and below there is no power bar in passing, there is limited direction to move a player or aim the pass. IMO, the error is easily seen with different players. But in 2012, the system is getting much more of our input to adjust the error, power bar and more direction to do a pass + manual modifier. or no, we still want more error that leaves an idea for some people to say "wow, the game does not repsond well to my input". lol.

In another note when talking about accuracy of passing here i'd like to take it as in "the ball falls directly to receiving player's foot". For certain situations. Both Santos and MU has to have the ability to do the same accuracy. Why ? no, you guys tell me why not ? :COAT:

Do i see pass that falls a bit further from a player that requires a player to move manually or automatically to the ball trajectory. Of course, yes and it leaves opportunity to get intercepted or slowing down an attack and it shows the passing error in this game, no ?
 
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I really can't believe this but I've only just discovered after more play, that the game is auto-tackling, even with all the assistance settings turned off. Not auto slide tackling, normal tackling. It throws your own attempts at timing tackles off.

Has anyone else found this? Play a 1st half without trying to time your X tackles. In fact without pressing X at all. Then play the 2nd half doing the opposite.

The players are automatically sticking their legs in without me pressing X as soon as you position them around opposition players. Its very strange, and I don't know if its good or bad.

On the one hand it seems to take away the fun out of timing tackles, on the other hand it may assist you. Its baffling :/
 
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shorty alien said:
I really can't believe this but I've only just discovered after more play, that the game is auto-tackling, even with all the assistance settings turned off. Not auto slide tackling, normal tackling. It throws your own attempts at timing tackles off.

Has anyone else found this? Play a 1st half without trying to time your X tackles. In fact without pressing X at all. Then play the 2nd half doing the opposite.

The players are automatically sticking their legs in without me pressing X as soon as you position them around opposition players. Its very strange, and I don't know if its good or bad.

On the one hand it seems to take away the fun out of timing tackles, on the other hand it may assist you. Its baffling :/
Click to expand...

Have you go into assistance setting after every match as it goes to default for me in pc version.

But yeah, i see it but in very rare occasions. Let's see what 2nd demo brings and in case, it will be one or two time happen in final version. Personally, i will take it as "player's individuality" :P.

I don't know that this kind of automatic stuff will be a new concept to add other aspects of individuality to the individuality that we usually see. Remember Robinho's step over when facing defender in slow dribbling ?
 
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Yeah I did try it with making sure the assists are off. On or off it still happens! For me its not very rare, it happens all the time! I don't have to press X nine times out of ten in open play and the players do the tackling themselves. [I've seen the occasional Robinho step over as well]

Strange thing is, defending becomes a bit easier with it being automated if you just focus on the positioning and let it do its thing, with the occasional R2+X for last ditch situations.

But how much skill is involved if its automated and you're not the one who is timing the tackles most of the time? From one extreme to the other. The demo is lots of fun, but its driving me crazy in equal measure :CONFUSE:
 
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shorty alien said:
I really can't believe this but I've only just discovered after more play, that the game is auto-tackling, even with all the assistance settings turned off. Not auto slide tackling, normal tackling. It throws your own attempts at timing tackles off.

Has anyone else found this? Play a 1st half without trying to time your X tackles. In fact without pressing X at all. Then play the 2nd half doing the opposite.

The players are automatically sticking their legs in without me pressing X as soon as you position them around opposition players. Its very strange, and I don't know if its good or bad.

On the one hand it seems to take away the fun out of timing tackles, on the other hand it may assist you. Its baffling :/
Click to expand...

I have found that even with all the assistance settings off the players will still do everything that has been turned off, its not frequent though.

And after watching MOTD this weekend I think that they really need to have players knock the ball on more when dribbling, its way to tight.
 
dannyfc2 said:
You chaps would have an argument if I had an issue with defending, but I don't, I think the new system is sublime and one of the of the best inclusions this year....

I'm not talking about the CPU coming at me with Gauttuso. I'm talking about ME controlling him and feeling like I'm in charge of some pirouetting 19 year old wonderkid and not an aging holding midfielder. Whats the purpose of utilising the most skillful players in your squad when all of them have the technique and agility of 1970s Brazil? Sure, Messi is even more slippery than others, but he's heavily devalued when any old CB can beat his man with ease.

None of this is to do with difficulty or gameplay imbalances. It's about individuality being sacrificed for a more fluid, casual friendly game which I ain't happy about.

And of course there's passing errors, what I'm saying is it barely differs from player to players. Like you said, if I misplace a pass it's my fault, it isn't because I'm using Penarol's reserve fullback who should be more prone to mistakes than Seedorf and Boateng....
Click to expand...

So are you saying its too easy to to take on the opposition AI with the likes of Gattusso?
Maybe you're just awesome because I can't even do it with Messi.
I'm still not buying what you selling here. If you play with Penarol see how many passes are fluid build ups that go to every players feet and how many times the player has to track back to collect the ball that is placed a yard behind him then see how often it happens with Barcelona.
 
zeemeister said:
So are you saying its too easy to to take on the opposition AI with the likes of Gattusso?
Maybe you're just awesome because I can't even do it with Messi.
I'm still not buying what you selling here. If you play with Penarol see how many passes are fluid build ups that go to every players feet and how many times the player has to track back to collect the ball that is placed a yard behind him then see how often it happens with Barcelona.
Click to expand...

I know what you mean. On zero or 1 bar assistance I notice a few passes that go off target or behind the player. The one thing I don't feel totally comfortable with though, is sometimes the passing freedom feels like it's being overriden by the assistance and it forces it to a particular player when you held down the power longer to go somewhere else. Not often but every now and then.
 
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