PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

[Jamezinho]

In response to LTFC:

It's clear Seabass is looking to expand on the tactical side of PES, something which we should all be pleased to hear. The AI needs work and that seems to be the focus this year. The last couple of years have seen the tactical side of PES massively improved - with tactics sliders and more ways to customise your playing style - but the AI has not been good enough to take full advantage of this.

Hearing Seabass talk about more intelligent and supportive player runs on the one hand, and tighter defences on the other was music to my ears. The two should go hand-in-hand and if implemented correctly should eliminate any imbalances.

PES should be a tactical game of chess. The player who gets his tactics right should more often than not be the winner, not the player who is best with the control pad.

 

[CalcioCalabrese]

In response to LTFC:

PES should be a tactical game of chess. The player who gets his tactics right should more often than not be the winner, not the player who is best with the control pad.

I hope that's not entirely true. In theory you can be beaten at the moment by someone with a totally unrealistic formation. That's a tactical win rather than a control pad win.

I don't want to be beaten by a tactic or formation that works and is exploited. I want to be able to challenge and adjust based on the AI and how well I use it in conjunction with my skills on the controller on a game by game situation.

 

[Suuuuupertalk]

In response to LTFC:

It's clear Seabass is looking to expand on the tactical side of PES, something which we should all be pleased to hear. The AI needs work and that seems to be the focus this year. The last couple of years have seen the tactical side of PES massively improved - with tactics sliders and more ways to customise your playing style - but the AI has not been good enough to take full advantage of this.

Hearing Seabass talk about more intelligent and supportive player runs on the one hand, and tighter defences on the other was music to my ears. The two should go hand-in-hand and if implemented correctly should eliminate any imbalances.

PES should be a tactical game of chess. The player who gets his tactics right should more often than not be the winner, not the player who is best with the control pad.

Totally agree in principle, and it should be explored, but I'm being a tad cynical and am worried it won't be implemented properly. If it's not 100% correct, it could lead to some very frustrating mix-ups. But yeah, it is nice to see Konami thinking about this kind of stuff.

That argument no longer applies. Players aren't snapped to any grid and you can feel the inertia alright. This in PES 2011. The momentum problem may have been fixed, but we don't really have enough info about it to know.

There is a bit of momentum but I disagree about the players not feeling 'snapped' to a grid. It still happens a lot, especially with arial balls. Defenders in particular feel like they are running on some kind of grid on occasions.

 

[theCRO]

I hope that's not entirely true. In theory you can be beaten at the moment by someone with a totally unrealistic formation. That's a tactical win rather than a control pad win.

I don't want to be beaten by a tactic or formation that works and is exploited. I want to be able to challenge and adjust based on the AI and how well I use it in conjunction with my skills on the controller on a game by game situation.

I think both should play a part, and both already do play a part.

I've had online grudge matches against guys that wallpoped me 3-0 in the first game, both similar level, but they kept on getting free in dangerous situations. One guy kept feeding the winger and holding up play with Drogba while setting his pressure to 20 it seemed.

So I put the backline high, set offside trap on, switched to 4-4-2 with Krasic and Pepe at either side and dropped Del Piero deeper and played men closer togther in midfield with a DM man marking on Drogba.

This confined him, took out his wingers, forced him into bad decisions because of the offsides, Drogba was constantly hassled when on the ball from both sides (CB and DM) and Juve won 3 and drew 1 after the initial defeat.

I'm sure similar scenarios will be abundant in pes2012, which is great.

 

[Wendetta]

i hate those idiots who select night games on line.

lighting is utter crap at nite, it almost feel like playing a 2 dimensional game.

work on the lighting konami. thanks.

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

Really ? I much prefer night and only select night. It's much better for me on the big screen. I guess I'm one of those idiots.

 

[Wendetta]

lol

de gustibus

i personally think nite games are uttecrap.

 

[YoungGun_UK]

This doesn't make any sense to me.
So all you have to do for win matches is keep possession?

Take last season' Inter for example. They were considered a defensive team, so if they had this "mental fatigue", they would not be able do beat Barcelona right?

My point is, you play possession football because it works for you, because you know how to score playing that way.

Not just holding possession for the fun of it but actually keeping the ball and more importantly in the final 3rd and constantly make the defenders make clearances/last ditch challenges.

The Inter game is a great example, they lost 1-0 on the night (and it would have been 2-0 if it wasn't for an referee error) but that was the tactic they adopted which still resulted in a loss but just not a very heavy one.

 

[lucagian]

Why do you put a capital letter at the start of every word?

Just like to.. is it harming you?

 

[Enlil]

Regarding the lightning. I think it's really life like. Night is very poor, but i can't understand people actually saying the graphics look ugly. I think it looks really good.

The lightning has changed as we all can see in the interview with seabass, so night games will be awesome too.

The only thing i have noticed is that night games aren't that smooth to play. I am on ps3 and night games just don't feel right.

 

[romagnoli]

Lighting. Not lightning. Common mistake, but the latter one is what you get during thunderstorms.

 

[DuduBR9]

I hope they make 1-2s way harder, as well as the through pass.

If the Ai attack runs are improved, i hope 1-2s to be unecessary and hard to perform most of the time, because it must depend on team work and play mentality.

Currently i've been seeing people doing this a lot: pass the ball back whilst holding l1 (or lb), making the one who passed the ball run forward, and then press imidiately a thorugh pass to him back, and there's a clear chance to score. That's pathetic.

Three things contribute to make it too easy:
- ball physics are a bit too fast for these two quick passes.
- defenders can't follow the speed of the play and are unable to anticipate themselves.
- through pass is ridiculously easy (yep, this is not new to anyone lol)

Although, I do think that the 10 mins match is easier to make this through passes as klash usually says, but the lack of quick reactions from defenders to interpret these dangers situations and aticipate themselves to try something annoys me a lot.

One thing that I hate in pes 2011 is the fact that the one who will receive the pass always has a much better reaction time than any player of the other team, even if these latter is closer to the ball. I also hate when a player make a blind pass and the one who will receive the ball imidiately reacts all the fucking time, even in circunstances that irl he wouldn't notice that te ball carrier meant to pass to him. This whole thing i've said here cotributes a lot for noob passing and unrealistic fast plays.

From what i'v seen on the pes 2012 video, the ball physics has changed a lot and passing speed looks more realistic and variable. This with the new manual cursor alone could "fix" many of these problems.

Jesus, all I want is a game that make players who do this kind of stuff look silly, but currentley it's abit too easy and the stupid ai defence can't aticipate properly.

Who else agrees with me ?

I hope you guys get what i mean here as i cosider this to be an important aspect that is lackng in pes 2011, and if they fix it, pes 2012 may be amazing. Here's where i think we9 is miles better.

ps: i think pes 2011 is a great game, actually the best footy game yet, so don't take me wrong here, it's a massive improment compared to the previous one, but in many aspects it feels like it is not polished enough.

 

[theCRO]

daytime games in a small stadium with NO SHADOWS on the pitch are the best IMO, either that or night. The shadows can screw up your timing and ruin a game.

 

[theCRO]

I hope they make 1-2s way harder, as well as the through pass.

If the Ai attack runs are improved, i hope 1-2s to be unecessary and hard to perform most of the time, because it must depend on team work and play metality.

Currently i've been seeing people doing this a lot: pass the ball back whilst holding l1 (or lb), making the one who passed the ball run forward, and then press imidiately a thorugh pass to him back, and there's a clear chance to score. That's pathetic.

Three things contribute to make it too easy:
- ball physics are a bit too fast for these two quick passes.
- defenders can't follow the speed of the play and are unable to anticipate themselves.
- through pass is ridiculously easy (yep, this is not new to anyone lol)

Although, I do think that the 10 mins match is easier to make this through passes as klash usually says, but the lack of quick reactions from defenders to interpret these dangers situations and aticipate themselves to try something annoys me a lot.

One thing that I hate in pes 2011 is the fact that the one who will receive the pass always has a much better reaction time than any player of the other team, even if these latter is closer to the ball. I also hate when a player make a blind pass and the one who will receive the ball imidiately reacts all the fucking time, even in circunstances that irl he wouldn't notice that te ball carrier meant to pass to him. This whole thing i've said here cotributes a lot for noob passing and unrealistic fast plays.

From what i'v seen on the pes 2012 video, the ball physics has changed a lot and passing speed looks more realistic and variable. This with the new manual cursor alone could "fix" many of these problems.

Jesus, all I want is a game that make players who do this kind of stuff look silly, but currentley it's abit too easy and the stupid ai defence can't aticipate properly.

Who else agrees with me ?

I hope you guys get what i mean here as i cosider this to be an important aspect that is lackng in pes 2011, and if they fix it, pes 2012 may be amazing. Here's where i think we9 is miles better.

ps: i think pes 2011 is a great game, actually the best footy game yet, so don't take me wrong here, it's a massive improment compared to the previous one, but in many aspects it feels like it is not polished enough.

I fully agree with you mate. Playing with lesser teams does significantly improve those easy through balls in pes2011 though, try to play Pana vs. Lecce against one of those exploiters and he won't be able to do jack shyt.

Ask Jimmy, we play with small teams and it becomes a game of chess, really picking our passes and building space.

ps. dudu više nije isti igrač, nažalost.

 

[DuduBR9]

I fully agree with you mate. Playing with lesser teams does significantly improve those easy through balls in pes2011 though, try to play Pana vs. Lecce against one of those exploiters and he won't be able to do jack shyt.

Ask Jimmy, we play with small teams and it becomes a game of chess, really picking our passes and building space.

ps. dudu više nije isti igrač, nažalost.

Thanks for the quick response mate.

Too bad i have the american version, i bought it because of the brazilian commentary (i'fm from Brazil), but i've been thinking about getting the eroupean version this years ust to play you guys from this forum.

btw, have you ever noticed how often people do this kind of play (pass back with 1-2 button held, then through pass back) ? Annoying

But playing with average teams against decent players surely is a much better experiance. Too bad i didnt have this oportunity yet.

 

[dannyfc2]

I hope they make 1-2s way harder, as well as the through pass.

If the Ai attack runs are improved, i hope 1-2s to be unecessary and hard to perform most of the time, because it must depend on team work and play mentality.

Currently i've been seeing people doing this a lot: pass the ball back whilst holding l1 (or lb), making the one who passed the ball run forward, and then press imidiately a thorugh pass to him back, and there's a clear chance to score. That's pathetic.

Well the marking/run-tracking implentation in demostration video indicates it should be more difficult to pull off.

Completely agree tho, the '1-2' has been a cheap move since the first WE game I played. The defenders are just too static, and if player switch isn't accurate there's not enough time to reposition them manually. It almost happens in slow motion it's so predictable, but sometimes you can do nothing but watch the ball trickle into the path of the striker's very obvious forward run.

What makes it worse is it's effective in real life and thus you can't really quantify it as a 'cheap move'. It's only the really obvious, blatant 1-2s that should be cut out easily. I'll openly admit I use the L1+Pass and R2+Pass a lot just to compensate for the lack of attacking movement.

 

[CalcioCalabrese]

1-2's are harder to defend if you're someone who likes to jump into tackles or have overly high pressure settings. I have come up against guys who can intercept my passes (via 1-2's or short quick passing) by virtue of them reading my play. So it can be done if you back off a little...albeit, I take those points made above as valid, regarding that slowness in reaction times.

I hope it doesn't turn into FIFA where they're like magicians forcing cards on you. I get the pass/shot blocked before I've even switched on the console...

 

[dannyfc2]

If you already have control of a CB back to begin with then yeah, absolutely no problem at all to deal with. It's when the opponent breaks and frantically smashing L1 is so unbearable slow at selecting the optimum defender that they're a problem, since under AI control they just do not track or read runs what so ever.


Or whats even more frustrating is anticipating the pass, moving the player into the right path yet the ball still manages to glide past. IRL the defender would stick out a leg, but in PES there's a lot smaller range for the ball to 'connect'.

 

[CalcioCalabrese]

yeah - the player switching causes a lot of irritation. i found with FIFA's fully manual switching that 90% of the time it would change to the right player for me. hopefully works well in PES 2012.

and fingers crossed the ball physics finally have some tweaks. if a free kick or cross can curl, why can't they program it into a placed shot or pile driver?!! and a bit of dip wouldn't hurt anyone either

 

[Primepeace]

come on konami bring it on i can't wait

 

[zeemeister]

Fatigue is massive and seriously needs to be rectified. If a player runs flat out for 60 minutes he should be stretchered off.

 

[Lons]

I hate shadow on day time in one side on the pitch. It's looks terrible and ugly. The best pitch is without shadow like KONAMI STADIUM on the day .

 

[Lami]

Fatigue is massive and seriously needs to be rectified. If a player runs flat out for 60 minutes he should be stretchered off.

Totally agree Zee. Also, I hate it when the CPU pressures my defence non-stop. There must be some sort of short distance power sprinting stamina that depletes quickly, which of course should be separate to the other usual stamina bar. I thought they were going to implement this for 2011 but not sure what happened there.

 

[dannyfc2]

^^^That's definitely been in previous football games, I remember sprinting that after a sustained would slow down to a jog speed until you released R1, where the bar would slowly fill up again.

Could be an early PES, or possibly an early FIFA?

 

[theCRO]

that was NBA Live

 

[Suuuuupertalk]

Totally agree Zee. Also, I hate it when the CPU pressures my defence non-stop. There must be some sort of short distance power sprinting stamina that depletes quickly, which of course should be separate to the other usual stamina bar. I thought they were going to implement this for 2011 but not sure what happened there.

I agree with both you and Zee. Fatigue is huge, and would add a far more tactical element to your play. Do you choose to go flat out early on, hoping to build a lead, but risk inviting pressure later on in the game as the opposition have much higher stamina etc.....

I've said for a long time elsewhere that there should be a secondary stamina bar for sprinting. There should be an overall stamina bar, which goes down through the course of a match with basic player movement and diminishing concentration levels, but also a secondary sprint bar which is very short lived and impacts massively on the overall stamina guage. It should ideally run out after about 40 yards of a flat out sprint, meaning defenders and attackers cannot just charge around non-stop - as the sprint bar runs out, they'll simply stop sprinting, and it then slowly recharges at a low level than when you started. And when it's used at all, it diminishes your overall stamina bar even further. When the sprint bar runs out and you carry on sprinting, it would then radically reduce your overall stamina bar. This will make players choose when to sprint for a ball, when both attacking and defending, and when to conserve energy.

I think this is basically the FIFA stamina guage, but the key difference compared to FIFA is that it should actually do something radical when it reaches zero (FIFA's of course does nothing at all, and lets you carry on sprinting around). Hammering your player's stamina could have a great impact, from not just physical strength and speed, but all stats effectively would drastically reduce to simulate mental tiredness. Hammer Fabregas, or Xavi to the point of exhaustion, then prepare to see their passing stats go down the toilet. As they get mentally and physically tired, so their passing goes all over the place. Do the same for a centre back, prepare to see them caught out of position or mis-time tackles. Hammer the likes of Iniesta, then prepare to see his dribbling and control diminish, and make next to no forward runs at any speed because he's tired. In short, over using sprint both in single player and online should reduce even the best players to useless wrecks, which would make the likes of Messi more akin to the absolute worst ML default players on purple arrows.

As we all know, real football is as much about conserving energy and knowing when to 'burst' into space, which is why the top players in the world are so good at it. I reckon such a simple change on the fatigue system would radically enhance this, as well as bringing a whole new dimension to tactical substitutions. In game modes such as ML too, buying players for their stamina and mental toughness attributes would be more of a factor too. Signing that lightning fast dribbling attacker might not look like the obvious option if you can see before buying him that a few sprints down the wing will see him a devastated wreck unable to get to the ball, but then you'd have the option to buy him as an impact sub, or just use him very sparingly when sprinting.

In many ways I think the new PES is set up to use this system, the concept of slow, tiny movements, taking more touches of the ball rather than powering past players, and playing at a more realistic speed without sprinting is there. All it needs is an extra something, maybe like some of us have suggested, to make that step to becoming a proper simulation of a physical sport.

In short, I think it would be a great idea

 

[sincover]

If you look carefully, the AI in PE2011 doesn't really sprint for long periods of time. They very precisely (with robotic accuracy) use the exact amount of sprint necessary to get into position. I don't even think fatigue really has any effect on the AI; passes made in the 91st minute are as accurate as passes made in the 1st, if anything they seem to have more energy in the latter stages of the game (especially if behind).

 

[pjft]

While we're at it, I used to think that the fatigue was heavily influenced by our usage of R1. While it probably is, I started noticing while playing BAL that it's sort of mathematical when the stamina gauge over your player turns red, match after match.

At the moment, in my case, it's around 68 mins. Sometimes it's a bit earlier, say 63 mins, but it's not before that - and I've been trying to abuse R1 very much, just for the sake of the experiment.

I'm not sure if the 63 mins vs 68 mins in my case is related to the usage of R1, or to the initial fatigue - and arrow - your player has. I do believe that it's related to my Stamina stat, no doubt about it.

Anyone else has the same experience?

Regards,

Paulo Tavares

 

[Northzzz]

GTA 1 had a stamina bar allowing merely for short bursts and no flat out running, if a game that old can do it then PES can surely implement it

 

[Northzzz]

I think this is basically the FIFA stamina guage, but the key difference compared to FIFA is that it should actually do something radical when it reaches zero (FIFA's of course does nothing at all, and lets you carry on sprinting around). Hammering your player's stamina could have a great impact, from not just physical strength and speed, but all stats effectively would drastically reduce to simulate mental tiredness. Hammer Fabregas, or Xavi to the point of exhaustion, then prepare to see their passing stats go down the toilet. As they get mentally and physically tired, so their passing goes all over the place. Do the same for a centre back, prepare to see them caught out of position or mis-time tackles. Hammer the likes of Iniesta, then prepare to see his dribbling and control diminish, and make next to no forward runs at any speed because he's tired. In short, over using sprint both in single player and online should reduce even the best players to useless wrecks, which would make the likes of Messi more akin to the absolute worst ML default players on purple arrows.

As we all know, real football is as much about conserving energy and knowing when to 'burst' into space, which is why the top players in the world are so good at it. I reckon such a simple change on the fatigue system would radically enhance this, as well as bringing a whole new dimension to tactical substitutions. In game modes such as ML too, buying players for their stamina and mental toughness attributes would be more of a factor too. Signing that lightning fast dribbling attacker might not look like the obvious option if you can see before buying him that a few sprints down the wing will see him a devastated wreck unable to get to the ball, but then you'd have the option to buy him as an impact sub, or just use him very sparingly when sprinting.

Great post. It's not feasible to suggest that players can't run anymore when they run out of stamina, they should be able to but as you say things like awareness, passing ability, shooting ability perhaps and other technical attributes should diminish. A lot of players, when fully tired, run on pure adrenaline and this would further introduce a greater need for a player to have a determination attribute so when they get tired they still have a desire to at least run in short bursts. Imagine a player like Rooney still going all out when tired, but a player like Berbatov not really doing so.

You are onto something when you mentioned player's intelligent runs diminishing when tired, this should really happen. I'm happy to see the new concept PES is going for with intelligent runs but these shouldn't happen as much in the 30th minute as the 80th because players simply don't do it as much in real life, unless see below.

Hypothetically speaking adding something else into the equation with the determination or mental toughess attribute would be a team being more prone to going all out if behind and in need of the goal much more so than the team in the lead. It would require a balanced amount of tweaking as to not make teams losing overpowered but in real life if a team is merely one goal behind they tend to go all out to get a goal (see Arsenal v Villa on Sunday). We would then see a real difference between teams based on circumstances other than just technical ability. If a team is 4-0 down then unless a lot of their players have good determination attributes they would be dejected and probably for the most part wouldn't 'push' and 'sprint' constantly if it was late in the game. It'd make matches more tactical other than, well it's okay if you score 3/4 because i can just score 3/4 also. That's something that annoys me a lot about Fifa because it happens all the time. Defending would be a great priority because of the consequences that happen if you concede a lot of goals.

Plus imagine players getting cramp when fully depleted of energy if they had low fitness attributes. It'd bring a great deal of realism to matches that extend beyond 90 minutes. This whole concept that you spoke of would also give a greater need for tactical decisions such as timely substitutions. Substitutions rarely felt like they had enough impact in PES 2011.