PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

YoungGun_UK said:
Hope they make sure some of United's younger players are rated accordingly, the likes of Hernandez, Cleverley, Welbeck, Smalling and Jones, in reality their going to play a big part so hopefully they can be used in the game also.
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Agreed.

This has always been a big problem with PES, younger players or players not at the top teams being rated crap...

Just look at Andy Carroll, Jack Wilshere, Javier Hernandez, Charlie Adam, Matt Jarvis, Sergio Busquets and many others in PES 2011, criminally underrated.

Then you have the overrated has-beens... Ronaldo (Brazil), Roberto Carlos, Robert Pires, Luis Garcia (ex-Liverpool), Michael Owen, Robbie Keane, Thierry Henry etc.

They really do need to sort out their attributes.
 
Adboard at the madrid vs barca match
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Northzzz said:
Always thought the second point too. Young players are debatable because i'd hate to see them become overrated and it probably is a fine line. There are some young players (i won't mention them) who i think are just promising at current and wouldn't want to see the hype inflate their attributes beyond a reasonable reflection. Overall i honestly think PES doesn't do a terrible job at representing younger player attributes but there are some issues there and as you mentioned rightly they have underrated players like Jarvis, Hernandez, Carroll and Adam.

I still find some ratings for certain older players ridonkulous on the game as the ones that you mentioned.
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i think the young players are rated lower because of the ML growth curves,if you made someone like hernandez say over 85(probably right) at 23 then 2 or 3 seasons into the ML his overall rating would probably be over 100 which would unbalance the game,ive found with my edited pes2011 file that has stats more accurate for young players by the 3rd and 4th seasons i was playing against players like carroll,wilshire,hazard,lukaku,alvarez and eriksen had stats in the mid 90s. its fine having their stats corrected for 1vs1,cup,league and online games but with ML it gets abit messy after a few seasons
 
goalgerd said:
i think the young players are rated lower because of the ML growth curves,if you made someone like hernandez say over 85(probably right) at 23 then 2 or 3 seasons into the ML his overall rating would probably be over 100 which would unbalance the game,ive found with my edited pes2011 file that has stats more accurate for young players by the 3rd and 4th seasons i was playing against players like carroll,wilshire,hazard,lukaku,alvarez and eriksen had stats in the mid 90s. its fine having their stats corrected for 1vs1,cup,league and online games but with ML it gets abit messy after a few seasons
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Good point
 
it just not adequate football
when its couter attack play all game long
no real football
i kno its partley the games fault (pes2011)
most here i think would appreicate
more planning,build-up play in future games

this is concerning ONLINE PLAY
 
The main problem is that in real football you have to play without the ball for at least half the game (roughly speaking). On video games, people want the ball non stop so they will pressure you until they win it back impatiently and then try and score as quickly as possible. It's about ticking boxes for them, not waiting patiently to win the ball or create a chance.

Another problem is also the result of over pressuring - it creates a lot of space thus enabling a team to go forward forward forward with more ease than in real life. Look at FIFA gameplay video's. Guys are running in with a full head of steam towards the ball carrier - if you pass around or dribble around them, there's a lot of space to run into. You're not going to pass it backwards or sideways to create space since the opposition has done the hard work for you.

If more people played a contain style and only tackled when the situation was right, the team with the ball would have to be more patient in their build up, or face turning the ball over quickly.

Personally I think the effectiveness of the secondary press button and agression sliders in football games is having a bad impact on gameplay in two ways:
1) allowing people to pressure without regard to how that amount of running around would fatigue their players in real life. You have to be more selective in real games and you don't lunge in for tackles as much as people do in football games; and
2) the excessive pressure discourages/forces the other team from knocking the ball around with patience. So they only end up going forwards - either because they don't want to lose the ball in their defence from some forward who has better tackling than Nesta or because the pressure has created so much space, that it's a sin not to exploit the open pitch.
 
goalgerd said:
i think the young players are rated lower because of the ML growth curves,if you made someone like hernandez say over 85(probably right) at 23 then 2 or 3 seasons into the ML his overall rating would probably be over 100 which would unbalance the game,ive found with my edited pes2011 file that has stats more accurate for young players by the 3rd and 4th seasons i was playing against players like carroll,wilshire,hazard,lukaku,alvarez and eriksen had stats in the mid 90s. its fine having their stats corrected for 1vs1,cup,league and online games but with ML it gets abit messy after a few seasons
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Great post! I bought Neymar for 11 millions in ML with 73 as rating, now after 3 years he is 91 :) Santon and Traore are 95!!:BRMM:

Anyway im waiting for Master League mostly, for multiplayer i go to friends house where he has 4 gamepads and we play FIFA 10.. Its more fun, but its not that real. I like to have proper football manager/player experience on my own with PES. I even bought xbox360 gamepad for my pc and sold my 24'' LCD and bought 32'' LED tv :) Its going to be crazy PES 2012 ML bash!

I think most people just want to have polished fun together be it online or on the same couch multiplayer. PES out of the box especially on consoles isnt what most football fans players want, Fifa is complete package but with more arcade approach, its very hard for me to say to my friends: hey guys lets switch to play PES!! Friends didnt like PES2010 or PES2011 out of the box, Fifa 11 was crap so we skipped it too.

We play FIFA 10 once a week about 10 games, they dont want to hassle with options files, they want beautiful picture, Impact engine, flowing animations...it all sells for those who arent hardcore football lovers! We all do agree though - PES6 is the king of gameplay, it feels good to hear that even from my FIFA loyal friends :SMUG:


Now when it comes to play football everyday - PES is the king, master league, player modifications, yair gameplay,jenkey tools, juce kitserver.. list goes on!! Thats a football simulation not just playing footie for fun with friends once a week.

I think FIFA is better casual console football.
 
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My ML data is a mess of players rated over 100. Because I've won a lot of games and cups nearly all of my team are 95 to 100 rated. Even Nile Ranger who I hardly ever use is 102! Though despite being 102 and his stats being all high 90's... he hardly feels like a superstar on the pitch when I do use him.

It means that I'm always receiving bid for my players in the 70+ million range and some of them I've only played once or twice. I currently have 602 million in the bank and that's mostly from selling players I never used. I've resorted to releasing players to avoid ending up with silly money now.
 
Can't say I've experienced that in ML to be honest, player growth seems fine after 3 seasons. Certain players develop to high amounts, but I certainly don't have a whole team of 100 rated players. Maybe they can end up being 100 after a whole load more seasons, it's not something that would bother me as I tend to play ML until everything's been won before leaving the mode to do something else.

But I don't think there's too much to fix for PES2012 in this regard, maybe better research into those who will become famous for ML would be good like others have said. I haven't for example noticed Wilshere becoming the player he is even now in PES. It is disappointing to find a player in MLwho is an exciting prospect and the game hasn't picked up on that.

As for those faces pics, they look stunning. Can't understand when people say FIFA looks better. These screenshots look on a par with the rendered 'screenshots' EA keep posting for their game.
 
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Radiation said:
My ML data is a mess of players rated over 100. Because I've won a lot of games and cups nearly all of my team are 95 to 100 rated. Even Nile Ranger who I hardly ever use is 102! Though despite being 102 and his stats being all high 90's... he hardly feels like a superstar on the pitch when I do use him.

It means that I'm always receiving bid for my players in the 70+ million range and some of them I've only played once or twice. I currently have 602 million in the bank and that's mostly from selling players I never used. I've resorted to releasing players to avoid ending up with silly money now.
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The problem isn't that you should rate Youngster's lower its the fact ML's growth system is terrible. everyone seems to improve and facets of their game which shouldn't do.

Hernandez for example if rated say 82 (which means he has reasonably good stats) the facets of his game which will improve will probably be positioning with experience, maybe strength, his first touch and passing may improve slightly and he'll improve his finishing a little (which should be very good from the off). getting quicker or other facets probably shouldn't improve rather than how it is now with everything about the player getting better.
 
I agree that speed and acceleration are facets of a player's game that don't improve as such, especially over a length of time. If anything they degrade over time. It would be more realistic if PES did their training so that your player would essentially start off with virtually their highest potential speed and acceleration stats their body can muster. That would be their maximum limit they can reach. And this limit would be reached, then maintained, by good physical coaching, but be a constant battle to maintain, as in real sport. Aspects such as poor/neglectful coaching, fatigue, injury and age would hamper a player's potential to reach their maximum attributes in that category.

For example, Walcott might theoretically have a maximum speed and acceleration of, say, 93, and that's the most his body can ever muster. With age, this would of course degrade, but fatigue, injury, poor coaching could reduce this 'potential' attribute at any point in his career. This would leave the door open for some cool gameplay elements like players returning from injury over a period of matches literally would need to gain match fitness. Injury degrates his speed from 93 down to, say, 80-85, and a small period of matches would be needed to pull this back up to 93. Same goes for fatigue. Something like this would require you to coax players back into the game, and stats could drop depending on the length of time out. A long term injury might need a series of games, and a short term shift in coaching to concentrate on their physical attributes, again much like in real sport, whereas a player missing for one week might only have speed/acceleration stats that didn't have time to degrade too much.

Other aspects of player development are fine though, I see no reason why a top coach wouldn't be able to improve any player's first touch, accuracy, all technical elements of their game that don't necessarily rely on their physcial ability. Look at Teddy Sheringham, for years he was a 'decent' player with the likes of Millwall, Forest, then later in his career he seemed to make a sudden jump in technical ability, positioning, lots of aspects that didn't require raw speed and power that he simply never had.

In short, physical attributes shouldn't really be upgradeable, and should be a constant battle to maintain. Players in their youth should really be quicker off the mark than players in their late 20's. But similarly, players should be able to develop most technical aspects of their game within their own 'potential' parameters. Some players in PES will just never progress past a certain level, others, like Wilshere for example, should be able to get better and better in technique, skill, positioning etc.

Speaking of degrating stats, I might be imagining it but I'm pretty sure PES on PS2 had this feature of sorts? Didn't players who were out for long periods of time suffer a reduction in their abilities until they got fit and retrained? Also, I really hope longer injuries occur in ML with PES2012. I've played two seasons in my current ML and the longest injury for one of my players has been two weeks.
 
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It's not entirely true that players start at their fastest, otherwise all 100m sprinters would be 18, or they'd never break their PBs after 20. It may peak around the early 20s or so but it'd be unrealistic to have it fading away after 24 without intense physical training. People can gain a couple of mph just through working on their technique.

Also physical stats like strength should start off low and spike around 19-21. It's not generally the done thing to put young players on intensive weight training until they're fully grown, otherwise it can cost top speed and agility. Stamina does need to go up in the early 20s too - managers are generally far more protective of youngsters against burning out, and tend to have lighter training regimes.

I agree it's silly to have players start at 70 pace and end up in the 80s. Just being a pedant as usual!
 
I guess it comes down the individual. You're right, certain players do reach a peak in their early 20's, and can keep their speed for a fair while, but others can start out at 'top' speed so to speak, suffer injuries, or just age, and they lose it. Michael Owen is a good example. I'm pretty sure Walcott too will some day begin to lose his speed and acceleration, probably through an injury, and then his main attributes will leave him pretty limited as a player. But I think these two are good examples of players who probably started out at their quickest when teenagers. Depends on how differing individual's bodies age and progress I suppose.

Even in their early 20's though I think it's a constant physical battle to keep at the peak of their physical fitness, or else they can lose that vital half a yard of acceleration, and it's something I'd personally like to see in future PES titles. I'm not holding out too much expectation for this happening though! That kind of detail is probably more likely to appear in Football Manager games though, in more stat-heavy games that suck up even a PC's processing power let alone a games console!
 
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I think injuries are a separate concern. If Owen didn't have these injuries he wouldn't have lost so much speed. He would be slower by now, sure - but it's not an example that specifically shows how you lose pace with age. He'd be fastertgan he is now, no question.
 
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