PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

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romagnoli said:
The Club Boss mode seems like it'd be too threadbare to be entertaining to me. I can't see that the aspects of being a chairman would be interesting enough to warrant extended play.

However I take issue with this 'I buy a game to play it, not watch it' mindset. Of course the main reason you buy PES is to play the football on the pitch - so on the surface the argument is watertight. But it's a closed minded way of looking at alternative modes.

If Club Boss was genuinely entertaining without you playing a part in the actual matches then I'd play it. If coach mode has enough depth and intrigue for me to want to go through more than one season watching the AI play according to my instructions, and the AI plays well so I'm not tearing my hair out at defenders running in a straight line into trouble, then I will play solely as the guy on the touchline.

It's the job of the game/mode to offer enough to entertain me. If it wants to take playing the actual football out of my hands then I'm open to that - I'm particularly interested in the idea of coach mode with all this new AI. After all, the point is that not playing the football is in itself part of playing the mode in question. It'd be like complaining that you're not doing the fighting in Shogun Total War.

People also say 'if I want to be a manager and not play then I'll just play FM', but that misses the point too. I wouldn't be playing coach mode in PES to replace FM. I'd be playing it because I really enjoy the tactical side of PES and want to be able to carry on experiencing it, learning about it and trying new things with it, when I want to take a break from actually playing. As it happens I do feel that PES's tactical setup and use of the formation screen is more intuitive than FM's dozens of individual sliders and archaic formation grid. But that's by the by. The main thing I ask is that it has depth, has character and is gratifying from a football perspective. Denying myself that just because FM exists would be foolish.

Note that this post isn't all levelled at you LTFC - you've said you're intrigued by Club Boss for a start. I just think there are certain thought processes that seem to be widely agreed on, that seem closed-minded to me.
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It's one thing to be close-minded toward new ideas but it's perfectly valid to be wary of a company - any company - moving too far away from its core product. In PES's case its core product is on the pitch gameplay and seeing Konami put resources into a mode that subtracts its core experience is a little frustrating when there a lot of improvements to ML that have been in demand for many years, like being able to change clubs or an option for more realistic league structures.

I'm all for new ideas and new modes as long as they incorporate the core experience, the reason I buy the game in the first place. Otherwise it's too easy to fall into the trap of Konami spreading itself too thin rather than making its core experience the best it can be. There's a very good reason why PES and FIFA are separate from football management games: because providing the experiences of both in one package, and to do it well, is impractical.

Maybe Konami will do Club Boss in a fun and entertaining way, but I still think most ML fans would've liked to see Konami evolve ML in other ways before adding something like this.
 
_anderson said:
What does "gloomy" mean by the way?
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_anderson said:
Well wasn't looking into the actual meaning of the word but what he means when using that word regarding the pics, it's a strange word to choose lol.
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To be fair, you asked what does it mean.

In the context of these screenshots, gloomy would mean they are dark, dull, not very bright/vibrant.
 
Jamezinho said:
To be fair, you asked what does it mean.

In the context of these screenshots, gloomy would mean they are dark, dull, not very bright/vibrant.
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Ah true. Should've asked"what "he meant" instead of what "it means". English ain't my main language. :P

So yeah, like I said, some of them look dark because of the lighting conflict related to the fact they were taken off a tv screen.
 
mfmaxpower said:
It's one thing to be close-minded toward new ideas but it's perfectly valid to be wary of a company - any company - moving too far away from its core product. In PES's case its core product is on the pitch gameplay and seeing Konami put resources into a mode that subtracts its core experience is a little frustrating when there a lot of improvements to ML that have been in demand for many years, like being able to change clubs or an option for more realistic league structures.

I'm all for new ideas and new modes as long as they incorporate the core experience, the reason I buy the game in the first place. Otherwise it's too easy to fall into the trap of Konami spreading itself too thin rather than making its core experience the best it can be. There's a very good reason why PES and FIFA are separate from football management games: because providing the experiences of both in one package, and to do it well, is impractical.

Maybe Konami will do Club Boss in a fun and entertaining way, but I still think most ML fans would've liked to see Konami evolve ML in other ways before adding something like this.
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I agree that Club Boss isn't the way I'd have expected Konami to have gone, though the fact that it's unlockable rather than a core part of the game should go some way to allaying fears of too much work being put into the game. I'll be surprised if there's a lot of depth to it, but then Konami are surprisingly mobile in terms of making significant changes to existing systems - presumably because their menus and off-pitch setups are self-owned and carry a lot less baggage. I'd imagine it's an off-shoot of other changes Konami have made to the game - it seems very unlikely that they'd give us the means of hiring and firing managers or controlling finances and not equipping the CPU with the same abilities.


The changes Konami have made to the management experience over the past few years are extremely deep and enjoyable to play with in and of themselves. It is now part of the core experience, rather than a peripheral aside that you can take or leave. That's why I'm so keen to play coach mode in 2012, and why I think it has something legitimate to offer in and of itself, without lazy and unambitious references to FM as a reason not to think it is worth a good go.

It won't have universal appeal at all, but so much of what would make it fascinating to a minority crosses the boundary between standing on the touchline and actually playing. So even if you never play coach mode, you won't have lost out in any way due to misspent resources. I'd wager the same is mostly true of Club Boss, save for the additional interface that'd bring.

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If there was evidence that Konami haven't being putting an absolute shitload of effort into improving the football experience offline and/or online, or listening to fan feedback, then I would have said the points you raise are valid concerns. But it doesn't seem like that's the case at all. They might not be exclusively covering fan feedback, but that's the nature of having an auteur at the helm who has his own vision to push as well. And that's what ensures that the game breaks new ground and adds things most fans wouldn't think of, as well as reinstating old fan favourites and implementing more current fan requests. Club Boss is hardly the poster boy for that, sure, but it would be facetious not to recognise that Konami have been making huge progress by innovating as well as listening to us.
 
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romagnoli said:
The Club Boss mode seems like it'd be too threadbare to be entertaining to me. I can't see that the aspects of being a chairman would be interesting enough to warrant extended play.

However I take issue with this 'I buy a game to play it, not watch it' mindset. Of course the main reason you buy PES is to play the football on the pitch - so on the surface the argument is watertight. But it's a closed minded way of looking at alternative modes.

If Club Boss was genuinely entertaining without you playing a part in the actual matches then I'd play it. If coach mode has enough depth and intrigue for me to want to go through more than one season watching the AI play according to my instructions, and the AI plays well so I'm not tearing my hair out at defenders running in a straight line into trouble, then I will play solely as the guy on the touchline.

It's the job of the game/mode to offer enough to entertain me. If it wants to take playing the actual football out of my hands then I'm open to that - I'm particularly interested in the idea of coach mode with all this new AI. After all, the point is that not playing the football is in itself part of playing the mode in question. It'd be like complaining that you're not doing the fighting in Shogun Total War.

People also say 'if I want to be a manager and not play then I'll just play FM', but that misses the point too. I wouldn't be playing coach mode in PES to replace FM. I'd be playing it because I really enjoy the tactical side of PES and want to be able to carry on experiencing it, learning about it and trying new things with it, when I want to take a break from actually playing. As it happens I do feel that PES's tactical setup and use of the formation screen is more intuitive than FM's dozens of individual sliders and archaic formation grid. But that's by the by. The main thing I ask is that it has depth, has character and is gratifying from a football perspective. Denying myself that just because FM exists would be foolish.

Note that this post isn't all levelled at you LTFC - you've said you're intrigued by Club Boss for a start. I just think there are certain thought processes that seem to be widely agreed on, that seem closed-minded to me.
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I suppose my post was taking the mindset that the mode will be threadbare to be honest. If the game progressed past playing and managing, then offers a full, rich experience as club owner then fantastic. I just don't think that the game will have the capacity to include a great football title and club management sim at the same time. That's not a criticism of Konami, if that's what's being attempted then they've got balls for trying it. I'm just skeptical that the game will be able to include all the relevant aspects of club ownership and turn it into it's own game once the playing side is over with. Hopefully I'm wrong on that, I don't see why Konami would attempt such a game mode without offering the player a decent amount of things to do once you took over a club as owner. Hopefully they have properly thought it through.
 
He probably used Google translate. A ganso is a geese. He was probably asking to see Ganso's face. But just in case, here is a geese.

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