PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

klashman69 said:
So, to summarize. Stamina needs a overhaul. Pressure needs to be tactical, and used only by the individuals with high stamina off the ball. It needs to be used tactically so you can't have your cake and eat it by playing with the ball quickly and mad pressuring when using it, you need to balance your tactics so you don't tire your players out. If you want to do a Barca and keep loads of possession then pressure. you need to really think about if your good enough to pull it off and if it's worth it or not. This will definatly make people think twice about putting together dream teams!
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100% agree
 
And how are they going to implement this? if C ronaldo is the fastest player in the world then how would this be translated into a game without losing the balance between defending and attacking? With the current flaws and bugs i actually liked the rubber banding, it sometimes was exaggerated. but it was needed to achieve a little bit of balance
 
Cristiano isn't that fast. pretty sure Aaron Lennon, Walcott and Gabby are faster than him for starters, not even mentioning Luton Shelton... On the ball i think he's the fastest though.

I think I'll be ok if they drop the rubber banding. Only I'd say Cristiano, Ribery and Robben would be an issue. Your basically going to have to defend deep against these guys.

You should be able to catchup and keep pace with Messi, although he'll just walk by you with pure skill :|

Players like Gabby, Walcott etc.. will be very fast just in a straight line but will suck when turning at speed.
 
I said "if". my point is that it will take years to implement a system that can replicate real life. in ps2 we had momentum so people can't really use the ps2 day's as being better.
 
Talking about different speed of players, PES 6 (i still have it on my comp) replicates it better than 2011 system of an attacker vs defender.

I guess, instead of introducing rubber banding in the past, it would be better if Konami worked on making more options in defending tactics/strategy and its system.

So far, from the official zonal defense/man marking vids of pes 2012 and the leaked videos, i am glad they seems to do something about defense ai and dropping rubber banding.
 
Thespeedster84 said:
Talking about different speed of players, PES 6 (i still has it on my comp) replicates it better than 2011 system of an attacker vs defender.

I guess, instead of introducing rubber banding in the past, it would be better if Konami worked on making more options in defending tactics/strategy and its system.

So far, from the official zonal defense/man marking vids and the leaked videos, i am glad they do something about defense ai and dropping rubber banding it seems
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what is this "rubber banding" you are talking about?
 
Couldn't agree more Klashman regarding pressure and stamina, made a thread about this on pes gaming I feel it would make a massive difference to an already superb game.

I also hope manual cursor switch is back to its best this year, on another note hope konami dont change manual passing as its perfect in pes 2011 despite the odd input delay. I'm assuming having no pass suppourt will be the same as manual pass in pes 2011 with the LT modifier, looking forward to trying it out.

Consistent refs are also crucial, you need refs that can pick up niggly fouls to see the best of PES's defensive system.
 
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Pere Ubu said:
It is an appropriate use of the word "cancer" in the sense that it's a common figure of speech, but I agree, it's not a word I like to see very often in any context.

The thing with the pressure... Konami spend all this time working on stuff for "one-on-one situations" - there ARE no one-on-one situations in PES2011, only four-on-one. I remember before the patch, you did get one-on-ones offline, where you and the defender could stand still facing each other - you'd do a stepover and slip away, looked great and was brilliant fun. Unfortunately, because the way it was coded was fairly primitive (the CPU defence stood off you when you weren't running) it led to the "green zone bug". So of course, Konami patched it in a hurry and their only solution was to bring in massed 100mph pressure in the opposition half. Didn't quite ruin the game, especially as AI pressure was perhaps a bit loose before that, but it made it much more frustrating and less realistic.

Online it's obviously much worse (even in PEEL a lot of people defend like that) because it's easy and there's no punishment. Personally I hate doing it - I have compactness set to wide and pressing low, spread my defence out and track players individually - but I'm not rewarded for that by the game, quite the opposite. If I just held down X and square all the time and didn't even look at the screen, I'm sure my players would do a better job of snuffing out attacks. If you just do that all the time, and when you win the ball back immediately hit a long through ball, play a one-two with the receiving player and then another through ball in on goal, you'll win far more games than you lose. PES gives you all this amazing freedom to do great stuff on the ball, then leaves in nooby tactics which totally snuff that out and hand the advantage to anyone who's prepared to play cheaply (even on Top Player). So - surprise surprise, almost everyone does. The fact that they've brought in all this new one-on-one stuff, but there hasn't been a word about pressure or stamina changes, makes me wonder if Konami even realise this is a problem. If nothing's changed with the pressing situation, the stuff they announced so proudly in yesterday's video may as well not be there.

Anyway, the point is, I'm not sure that just tweaking the stamina system would fix this. Because if you look closely you'll see that pressing is not affected by low stamina. Even when the team are all exhausted, they can still sprint-press until the final whistle... what's affected is stuff like ball control. So as the game goes on and the players get tired (with the team who've played at walking pace just as tired as the team who've sprint-pressed for 90 minutes), the pressure noobs actually find their advantage increased, because the man with the ball being pressed by 4 robots will find it harder and harder to escape the press.

The only way to change this is to alter second (and third, and fourth, and fifth) player pressure so that only two or at the very most three players respond to it. At the moment you hold down square and before the man on the ball has time to turn his body, there are four men standing round him in a circle, leaving him absolutely no options. What you want is for two men to press him, maybe with a third standing off, so a skilful player can turn or pass his way out through the gap. You also need teammates to run into the space left by those pressing defenders, to receive the ball (at the moment the gaps left by mass-pressing don't mean a thing because your teammates are too dumb to exploit them - often you'll be surrounded by defenders and your nearest teammate is 20 yards away, being marked). Then you need a proper stamina system which means that in the last 25 minutes of the game the pressing team are completely shattered, press much less strongly, and run more slowly than the team who've spent the game dominating possession, making it far more likely that they'll ship goals. You also need a ref who understands that running into a player's back without touching the ball, so he stumbles and allows you to take possession, is a FUCKING FOUL.

We're supposed to be getting the second of these things in PES2012, there's a small chance we'll get the third and fourth. Will we get the first? I doubt it, but you never know. Point is, Konami need to look at this seriously and not just plaster on a quick fix... if indeed they're aware that it's a problem in the first place.
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awesome post!!!
 
Did i mention that like Pere brilliantly said, players momentum, inertia and general movement should've very slow and lethargic when on a red. Depending on the tenacity again should determine how quickly their movement regresses to this level.

I think like on FIFA 09 PC, one the gauge completely goes out, players should be fucking useless unless they have 90 or above for tenacity :)
 
gerd said:
Thanks Lami...but now you are confusing me again.
I guess that shopto dat is for the UK???
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Yea mate shopto is a UK store. The official release date for UK is 14th, but for some reason shopto has it on 7th.
 
Glad to see the mature responce to the delayed release date un uk on this forum.
When i first moved to the states we had to wait until Feb, March for an identicle release of the uk version every year it was ridiculous especially as they would release the superior 2nd japanese version a month later
 
I don't have a twitter account but if anyone does then they should post a link to Pere's post to John Murphy, that post was absolutely bang on. Couldn't agree more.
 
dmxdex2020 said:
Catch up bug.
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Used in racing games to a more obvious effect.

Sure way to test it is Barcelona vs the worst team in the game (dunno which team in pro evo would be statistically the "worst"?)

If anyone saw the Brisbane Roar vs Central Coast Mariners A-League Grand Final 2011 (albeit two more even teams): 0-2 down in extra time to come back 2-2 and win on penalties...

Maybe God was having some fun with Football catch up in that Grand Final...? he he ;-) (CalcioCalabrese user may be the only one on this site that will get this reference)
 
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embraceuk1 said:
Glad to see the mature responce to the delayed release date un uk on this forum.
When i first moved to the states we had to wait until Feb, March for an identicle release of the uk version every year it was ridiculous especially as they would release the superior 2nd japanese version a month later
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yeah me too
 
The ai on pes 11 is nothing short of shocking. Its an ai for 5 year olds.

They dont pass good enough, they just run into you and let you take the ball, they defend like a pub team.

Konami need to sort it out.
 
Pere Ubu said:
It is an appropriate use of the word "cancer" in the sense that it's a common figure of speech, but I agree, it's not a word I like to see very often in any context.

The thing with the pressure... Konami spend all this time working on stuff for "one-on-one situations" - there ARE no one-on-one situations in PES2011, only four-on-one. I remember before the patch, you did get one-on-ones offline, where you and the defender could stand still facing each other - you'd do a stepover and slip away, looked great and was brilliant fun. Unfortunately, because the way it was coded was fairly primitive (the CPU defence stood off you when you weren't running) it led to the "green zone bug". So of course, Konami patched it in a hurry and their only solution was to bring in massed 100mph pressure in the opposition half. Didn't quite ruin the game, especially as AI pressure was perhaps a bit loose before that, but it made it much more frustrating and less realistic.

Online it's obviously much worse (even in PEEL a lot of people defend like that) because it's easy and there's no punishment. Personally I hate doing it - I have compactness set to wide and pressing low, spread my defence out and track players individually - but I'm not rewarded for that by the game, quite the opposite. If I just held down X and square all the time and didn't even look at the screen, I'm sure my players would do a better job of snuffing out attacks. If you just do that all the time, and when you win the ball back immediately hit a long through ball, play a one-two with the receiving player and then another through ball in on goal, you'll win far more games than you lose. PES gives you all this amazing freedom to do great stuff on the ball, then leaves in nooby tactics which totally snuff that out and hand the advantage to anyone who's prepared to play cheaply (even on Top Player). So - surprise surprise, almost everyone does. The fact that they've brought in all this new one-on-one stuff, but there hasn't been a word about pressure or stamina changes, makes me wonder if Konami even realise this is a problem. If nothing's changed with the pressing situation, the stuff they announced so proudly in yesterday's video may as well not be there.

Anyway, the point is, I'm not sure that just tweaking the stamina system would fix this. Because if you look closely you'll see that pressing is not affected by low stamina. Even when the team are all exhausted, they can still sprint-press until the final whistle... what's affected is stuff like ball control. So as the game goes on and the players get tired (with the team who've played at walking pace just as tired as the team who've sprint-pressed for 90 minutes), the pressure noobs actually find their advantage increased, because the man with the ball being pressed by 4 robots will find it harder and harder to escape the press.

The only way to change this is to alter second (and third, and fourth, and fifth) player pressure so that only two or at the very most three players respond to it. At the moment you hold down square and before the man on the ball has time to turn his body, there are four men standing round him in a circle, leaving him absolutely no options. What you want is for two men to press him, maybe with a third standing off, so a skilful player can turn or pass his way out through the gap. You also need teammates to run into the space left by those pressing defenders, to receive the ball (at the moment the gaps left by mass-pressing don't mean a thing because your teammates are too dumb to exploit them - often you'll be surrounded by defenders and your nearest teammate is 20 yards away, being marked). Then you need a proper stamina system which means that in the last 25 minutes of the game the pressing team are completely shattered, press much less strongly, and run more slowly than the team who've spent the game dominating possession, making it far more likely that they'll ship goals. You also need a ref who understands that running into a player's back without touching the ball, so he stumbles and allows you to take possession, is a FUCKING FOUL.

We're supposed to be getting the second of these things in PES2012, there's a small chance we'll get the third and fourth. Will we get the first? I doubt it, but you never know. Point is, Konami need to look at this seriously and not just plaster on a quick fix... if indeed they're aware that it's a problem in the first place.
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I am trying to think back to PES5 and I dont think that holding down secondary pressure sent a swarm of players after the man on the ball, I dont know why they have done this.
PES5 was perfect in the way that it worked pressure, I can remember keeping the CPU pinned back in their half while they retained possession but if I pulled a player to far away from his postion I would get punished for leaving the gap. Very realistic and it was enjoyable to defend like this, it also slowed my opponents attacks down and was far less conducive to the style of play I consistantly see online, where it seems to be about getting from one box to the other with as little passing as possible.
In PES5 I am pretty sure that the secondary player sent to hound the guy on the ball was determined by the grey boxes that define the areas in which he can play, when the man on the ball enters that area he will be closed down by that player. I can remember realising this and setting my ML team up accordingly so that I could effectively apply pressure to the whole pitch.
I would have 2012 revert back to this system and also if Konami are not going to implement a stamina system that is based on the amount of work done by the player, atleast go back to the PES5 stamina system where if they had low stamina sprinting for long distances was not possible.


Also Klashman I see no evidence of momentum in the player off the ball. I was playing MLO earlier and the guy had Dodo following when I was on the ball, I stopped and he instantly stopped along with me.
 
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well the problem with high pressure was non-existant in pastgen PES (4/5/6) because every player had super quick responsiveness, and when I was under pressure with my defender I could move around with the ball, do circles, make R2 turn (face goal turn) which was really quick, even with weak defender I could easily move around and go past pressure/doubleteaming.

So first thing was responsiveness, second was different netcode. Nextgen PES uses netcode introduced in Xbox 360 version of PES2008, which is rubbish in comparison to that pastgen one, which was either player1 hosting whole match, or each player is host for 1half, now netcode is like full p2p, but it doesn't work as it should (FIFA nailed it because online experience is pretty much as smooth as offline). So players are late in responses which helps with getting the ball with high pressure.

BTW jap devs are generally struggling making good netcode. Namco - Tekken/Soul Calibur - super laggy, Sony - GT5 is a joke online ; Konami - you know the story, MGS4 was a laughing stock with lagfest and patches which have transfers like 4kb/s for everyone , good luck with patching the game, PES was hit or miss too ; the only developer who's got it right is Capcom - but that;s because they hired a guy who made netcode for Kaillera snes/neogeo/etc emulator (you can play Winning Eleven 2002 through emulator lagfree thanks to that guy) - they got it spot on since then

Judging from videos from E3 code, player turns (180 turn, doing circles, R2 turn) are still too clunky, circles with the ball look like turning with a car so I expect online to look the same as in PES 2011 - high pressure abuse, same broken stamina system, with slow responses due to netcode/slow turning, I am not holding my breath for online to be somehow better.

Online beta would answer some questions I guess :)
 
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only1ronaldo said:
well the problem with high pressure was non-existant in pastgen PES (4/5/6) because every player had super quick responsiveness, and when I was under pressure with my defender I could move around with the ball, do circles, make R2 turn (face goal turn) which was really quick, even with weak defender I could easily move around and go past pressure/doubleteaming.

So first thing was responsiveness, second was different netcode. Nextgen PES uses netcode introduced in Xbox 360 version of PES2008, which is rubbish in comparison to that pastgen one, which was either player1 hosting whole match, or each player is host for 1half, now netcode is like full p2p, but it doesn't work as it should (FIFA nailed it because online experience is pretty much as smooth as offline). So players are late in responses which helps with getting the ball with high pressure.

BTW jap devs are generally struggling making good netcode. Namco - Tekken/Soul Calibur - super laggy, Sony - GT5 is a joke online ; Konami - you know the story, MGS4 was a laughing stock with lagfest and patches which have transfers like 4kb/s for everyone , good luck with patching the game, PES was hit or miss too ; the only developer who's got it right is Capcom - but that;s because they hired a guy who made netcode for Kaillera snes/neogeo/etc emulator (you can play Winning Eleven 2002 through emulator lagfree thanks to that guy) - they got it spot on since then

Judging from videos from E3 code, player turns (180 turn, doing circles, R2 turn) are still too clunky, circles with the ball look like turning with a car so I expect online to look the same as in PES 2011 - high pressure abuse, same broken stamina system, with slow responses due to netcode/slow turning, I am not holding my breath for online to be somehow better.

Online beta would answer some questions I guess :)
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it's funny because many people on here fear the opposite, they fear the players will have no sense of inertia and will be too quick in turns
 
dmxdex2020 said:
The ai on pes 11 is nothing short of shocking. Its an ai for 5 year olds.

They dont pass good enough, they just run into you and let you take the ball, they defend like a pub team.

Konami need to sort it out.
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I agree. Even on top player they defend in numbers rather than intelligence which is adequate but still rubbish. They are just so shocking at attacking though. Their movement is sub-par and i can't count how many 1 v 1s the cpu misses even on top player with good players. It's borderline strange. Player individuality is so unnoticable when it comes to the cpu teams.

What is strange is that a lot of people say that the cpu plays better on Professional. I think it is true that they do but it's just professional is far too easy.
 
About AI, it seems it improved a lot in pes 2012, we can just hope till we will have the chance to play it

just a little o.t. wow, i didn't know there was a pes 6 defence clan on wenb
 
Northzzz said:
Their movement is sub-par and i can't count how many 1 v 1s the cpu misses even on top player with good players. It's borderline strange.
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Yeah, weird that. Noticed it in my brief stint before entering MLO. I was still getting to grips with defending at the time, so the CPU had plenty of chances but they kept squandering again and again. Making the AI more clinical on Top Player must be the easiest way to code a high difficulty, so it's odd how wasteful they are.
 
Ameppe said:
it's funny because many people on here fear the opposite, they fear the players will have no sense of inertia and will be too quick in turns
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yeah I know - too quick is "arcadish" but hey - PES4 and 6 was like that and there were no complainers

reality check is needed here - if you want to combat current issues which are ie. high pressure and rigid moves with the ball you need to quicken those turns (R2 turn, diagonal turns etc), or it will be same old story again - rubbish netcode and poor Konami servers to add to that/slow reaction in defence = PES 2011 says hi

I don't want online mode to be unplayable again because that's the mode I would play whole year if it works. And to make it work they would have to go back to old netcode or do something with responsiveness online which is mainly player turns with the ball. If it has to be arcadish to make it work - I'm all for it. "Sim mode" doesn't work currently and probably never will.

if you're offline player then you want realistic stuff and you won't care that online sucks being as it is, where you can't shake off pressure online because when you turn with the ball it's so slow that you are losing the ball most of the time, you have to pass when attacked (and that's what high pressure abusers want), you can't do nothing else - or you will lose the ball - and online matches...I wouldn't call it football game lol. Fixes are needed
 
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pepper63 said:
For me the biggest "cancer" of ALL football games online is the pressure..Hey can we not use words like "cancer" to describe what is wrong with a game? Get a bloody grip.
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Sorry my friend, this word is used here in Brazil (but not very often) to describe something that is very bad. I didn't mean to be offinsive to anyone.

BTW, i've been playing much better now, i'm getting to my best form step by step, but i'm just too unlucky. Most of my matchs i've been playing better than my opponentes, much more ball posseision and control of the game, but it's not rewarding me a win lol...
 
Pere Ubu said:
It is an appropriate use of the word "cancer" in the sense that it's a common figure of speech, but I agree, it's not a word I like to see very often in any context.

The thing with the pressure... Konami spend all this time working on stuff for "one-on-one situations" - there ARE no one-on-one situations in PES2011, only four-on-one. I remember before the patch, you did get one-on-ones offline, where you and the defender could stand still facing each other - you'd do a stepover and slip away, looked great and was brilliant fun. Unfortunately, because the way it was coded was fairly primitive (the CPU defence stood off you when you weren't running) it led to the "green zone bug". So of course, Konami patched it in a hurry and their only solution was to bring in massed 100mph pressure in the opposition half. Didn't quite ruin the game, especially as AI pressure was perhaps a bit loose before that, but it made it much more frustrating and less realistic.

Online it's obviously much worse (even in PEEL a lot of people defend like that) because it's easy and there's no punishment. Personally I hate doing it - I have compactness set to wide and pressing low, spread my defence out and track players individually - but I'm not rewarded for that by the game, quite the opposite. If I just held down X and square all the time and didn't even look at the screen, I'm sure my players would do a better job of snuffing out attacks. If you just do that all the time, and when you win the ball back immediately hit a long through ball, play a one-two with the receiving player and then another through ball in on goal, you'll win far more games than you lose. PES gives you all this amazing freedom to do great stuff on the ball, then leaves in nooby tactics which totally snuff that out and hand the advantage to anyone who's prepared to play cheaply (even on Top Player). So - surprise surprise, almost everyone does. The fact that they've brought in all this new one-on-one stuff, but there hasn't been a word about pressure or stamina changes, makes me wonder if Konami even realise this is a problem. If nothing's changed with the pressing situation, the stuff they announced so proudly in yesterday's video may as well not be there.

Anyway, the point is, I'm not sure that just tweaking the stamina system would fix this. Because if you look closely you'll see that pressing is not affected by low stamina. Even when the team are all exhausted, they can still sprint-press until the final whistle... what's affected is stuff like ball control. So as the game goes on and the players get tired (with the team who've played at walking pace just as tired as the team who've sprint-pressed for 90 minutes), the pressure noobs actually find their advantage increased, because the man with the ball being pressed by 4 robots will find it harder and harder to escape the press.

The only way to change this is to alter second (and third, and fourth, and fifth) player pressure so that only two or at the very most three players respond to it. At the moment you hold down square and before the man on the ball has time to turn his body, there are four men standing round him in a circle, leaving him absolutely no options. What you want is for two men to press him, maybe with a third standing off, so a skilful player can turn or pass his way out through the gap. You also need teammates to run into the space left by those pressing defenders, to receive the ball (at the moment the gaps left by mass-pressing don't mean a thing because your teammates are too dumb to exploit them - often you'll be surrounded by defenders and your nearest teammate is 20 yards away, being marked). Then you need a proper stamina system which means that in the last 25 minutes of the game the pressing team are completely shattered, press much less strongly, and run more slowly than the team who've spent the game dominating possession, making it far more likely that they'll ship goals. You also need a ref who understands that running into a player's back without touching the ball, so he stumbles and allows you to take possession, is a FUCKING FOUL.

We're supposed to be getting the second of these things in PES2012, there's a small chance we'll get the third and fourth. Will we get the first? I doubt it, but you never know. Point is, Konami need to look at this seriously and not just plaster on a quick fix... if indeed they're aware that it's a problem in the first place.
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Wow.. exaclty my feelings mate. You've just described me on the game.

I couldnt have said bette3r. Konami need to read this now. Different defending styles need to have their pro's and con's, same goes for attacking.

Btw I again want to apologize to everyone for saying that word. I didn't expected that reaction.
 
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