PES 2011 Discussion thread

[Jimmy G-Force]

Re: PES 2011 News & Rumours Discussion thread

I really do think it is just a tweaked PES 08 which was an insult & if it just keeps getting tweaked instead of being reworked then it'll be dead in the water. It is not so much the evolution that is the problem but that it is evolving from a lemon.

We need a new start to build on marrying the series' past glory and modern technology.

That's really just my vien bursting gripe

cheers

WOW !!

I honestly cannot believe you have just said that and kept a straight face. If you cant see the huge differences across the board maybe you should be playing a different sports game altogether.

 

[Lami]

Re: PES 2011 News & Rumours Discussion thread

A tweaked 2008 or not, all I know is 2008 was shit, imo, and 2010 is giving me enjoyment. So if PES 2010 is a tweaked version of 2008 like you say, and it plays well then kudos to Konami for turning a pile of crap into something decent.

It is your opinion of course and you are totally entitled to one. But I just cannot see what you're on about.

 

[TanMak]

Re: PES 2011 News & Rumours Discussion thread

WOW !!

I honestly cannot believe you have just said that and kept a straight face. If you cant see the huge differences across the board maybe you should be playing a different sports game altogether.

No one said there aren't any differences. PES 08 was rubbish, PES 10 is rubbish as well ... there are just different levels. At best I would class it average. Maybe you shouldn't opine so quickly

A tweaked 2008 or not, all I know is 2008 was shit, imo, and 2010 is giving me enjoyment. So if PES 2010 is a tweaked version of 2008 like you say, and it plays well then kudos to Konami for turning a pile of crap into something decent.

It is your opinion of course and you are totally entitled to one. But I just cannot see what you're on about.

Well that is the whole point ... there are those, who I believe, see it for what it is ... an unfinished, buggy game that has fundamental issues that make it unplayable. Then there are some who seem to think this game is a 'a return to form' & find it enjoyable and I cannot see what they are on about.

 

[Jamezinho]

Re: PES 2011 News & Rumours Discussion thread

We seem to agree that PES is at a poor level but just how they need to get where they need to be, from reading your posts it seems we see a fundamental issue in freedom, 360*, technological innovation/progression, passing system (semi-manual), animation,collision detection, AI, Refs, etc etc.

However, I believe it is impossible to implement all these things on the rail, rigid, turgid, angular PES modified PS2 engine at play currently. For example If it was as easy as simply tossing these features in the current engine, then there wouldn't be a fundamental difference between FIFA PC & FIFA PS3/360 as EA would simply have continued tweaking an old engine.

This is where and why I believe PES has to start from scratch and design something free, dynamic, 360* everything, variable passing and something that can have the newer technology embedded into it. The irony is that I think it's too late in the day for them to get it right this generation, if ever again.

My counter argument would be to take a look at PES on the Nintendo Wii.

It's basically the aged PS2 engine married to the motion controls of the Wii and the result is a fluid game which gives the player total freedom to pass and shoot wherever he wants. It's considered the best version of PES on current gen consoles.

If this can be done on the Wii it can be done on the PS3/360, but with analogue sticks instead of Wii remotes. Seabass and Greyhound should team up and really push the current engine.

Also, 360 degree movement doesn't demand an engine re-write, other wise Fifa10 would have needed it. Infact, I'd question whether 360 degree movement is needed at all. It adds very little to Fifa10 in my opinion, and after going back and playing Euro 08 and Fifa 09 I certainly don't miss it in those games.

 

[Leo]

Re: PES 2011 News & Rumours Discussion thread

Also, 360 degree movement doesn't demand an engine re-write, other wise Fifa10 would have needed it. Infact, I'd question whether 360 degree movement is needed at all. It adds very little to Fifa10 in my opinion, and after going back and playing Euro 08 and Fifa 09 I certainly don't miss it in those games.

Yeah, last I played soccer IRL I didn't feel the need to go in more than eight directions either...

Seriously, the FIFA engine was written for the current gen so the 360 movement with the ball was one of the things they easily could add to it as they probably had it in their thoughts when writing the engine.

Also, going in to details like what an engine can and can't do without any real info or knowledge about how kind of things work is completely uninteresting so I'd say we stop. The thing that we can say is that FIFA has continues to evolve the last 2-3 years and PES hasn't added anything major in 4-5 years, and then draw conclusions from there but going in to details without any knowledge is just sad. Stop guessing about stuff you obviously don't know anything about (neither do I on any deeper level). What has KONAMI added to gameplay that is as large as proper 360 movement in the last 5 years? I think that sums it up...

 

[TanMak]

Re: PES 2011 News & Rumours Discussion thread

My counter argument would be to take a look at PES on the Nintendo Wii.

It's basically the aged PS2 engine married to the motion controls of the Wii and the result is a fluid game which gives the player total freedom to pass and shoot wherever he wants. It's considered the best version of PES on current gen consoles.

If this can be done on the Wii it can be done on the PS3/360, but with analogue sticks instead of Wii remotes. Seabass and Greyhound should team up and really push the current engine.

Also, 360 degree movement doesn't demand an engine re-write, other wise Fifa10 would have needed it. Infact, I'd question whether 360 degree movement is needed at all. It adds very little to Fifa10 in my opinion, and after going back and playing Euro 08 and Fifa 09 I certainly don't miss it in those games.

Well, I'm not familiar with the Wii version I'll admit so I cannot comment fairly. But we obviously agree the game needs all the previously stated technology in it. I believe a new engine is the only way ALL the features discussed (not just 360* movement or direction) can be successfully intergrated. I believe there is no way you can pump all these features into an old engine without programming consequences (ie. a glitchy PES 10). Also there are a lot of differences other than just control between the PC and Console versions of FIFA - evidently from an engine design.

But the fact that you see the game's major pitfalls alone is fine by me, whichever way this is sorted is more pedantic to the progression of the conversation then actually establishing where the game needs to be as it is currently in the mire.

I believe this to be why you have hope in PES 11 being an overhaul as opposed to my believing that what needs to be done takes much longer than a year and requires a new engine & is why I'm pessimistic for PES 11. Time, as always, will tell.


-- edit --

Yeah, last I played soccer IRL I didn't feel the need to go in more than eight directions either...

Seriously, the FIFA engine was written for the current gen so the 360 movement with the ball was one of the things they easily could add to it as they probably had it in their thoughts when writing the engine.

Also, going in to details like what an engine can and can't do without any real info or knowledge about how kind of things work is completely uninteresting so I'd say we stop. The thing that we can say is that FIFA has continues to evolve the last 2-3 years and PES hasn't added anything major in 4-5 years, and then draw conclusions from there but going in to details without any knowledge is just sad. Stop guessing about stuff you obviously don't know anything about (neither do I on any deeper level). What has KONAMI added to gameplay that is as large as proper 360 movement in the last 5 years? I think that sums it up...

Very well said mate, very poignant!

 

[Dusse]

Re: PES 2011 News & Rumours Discussion thread

One huge problem Konami is likely to have is messy code due to their old engine. When EA rewrote their engine they made sure that they could pick out any part (don't like the ball physics? rip them out and put in new ones), while old code as Konamis is likely to be much harder to handle and makes some things close to impossible to redo without rewriting other parts.

IMO Konami took their engine as far as it would go with PES5 (after that it's just minor tweaks. And even the diffrence PES3-PES5 is nog huge). Therefore I think they badly need to rewrite their engine - should look at what 2K are doing with their hockey game, as it happen to be a very similar situation to the whole FIFA and PES thing. (http://www.joystiq.com/2010/03/03/nhl-2k11-skips-xbox-360-and-ps3-only-coming-to-wii/)

 

[*aLe]

Re: PES 2011 News & Rumours Discussion thread

Players with low agility and low dribble accuracy trying to turn at a direction greater than 45 degrees will do it rather slowly compared to an accomplished dribbler

Fair enough, I agree with this.
But I've seen a lot of times players dragging the ball back, moving it sideways with the side of the foot, then turning 90°. Not even players like me (I have the dribbling speed/accuracy of a sofa) do that so often..

I'm not sure what you mean by slide-shots.

I mean players that perform a sort of "sliding tackle" to hit the ball. I find that it's performed way too often, and in some of the cases it's really unnecessary.
I would welcome "sliding interceptions" or "sliding deflections" but not a player that slides to kick a ball that is in front of him, while the closer opponent is 2 metres far..

 

[Jamezinho]

Re: PES 2011 News & Rumours Discussion thread

Yeah, last I played soccer IRL I didn't feel the need to go in more than eight directions either...

Seriously, the FIFA engine was written for the current gen so the 360 movement with the ball was one of the things they easily could add to it as they probably had it in their thoughts when writing the engine.

So why did it take them four years to add it? Fifa was 8-direction up until 10, but no-one criticised it before. I didn't see people on these forums complaining that they felt restricted by it.

I want more than 8-directions in PES, of course, but would more than 32-directions actually make a noticeable difference or add anything?

Also, going in to details like what an engine can and can't do without any real info or knowledge about how kind of things work is completely uninteresting so I'd say we stop. The thing that we can say is that FIFA has continues to evolve the last 2-3 years and PES hasn't added anything major in 4-5 years, and then draw conclusions from there but going in to details without any knowledge is just sad. Stop guessing about stuff you obviously don't know anything about (neither do I on any deeper level). What has KONAMI added to gameplay that is as large as proper 360 movement in the last 5 years? I think that sums it up...

Why do people feel the need to come here and preach about what is the best football game?

It's a forum to discuss PES. Your opinion is no more valid than mine or anyone else's. If you don't like the discussions here scuttle off to the Fifa forum.

Konami has added nothing special to the game in the last five years. But PES2010 is a more fun and involving football experience than Fifa10 by far. It's buggy and broken in some areas, but I play it most days and I've not touched Fifa for weeks. When EA can inject real football feeling into it's game I'll be all over it.

 

[Niero]

Re: PES 2011 News & Rumours Discussion thread

I wonder since NONE used manual passes in PES5 which is considered as the pinnacle of footsims....Why suddenly manual is the most important thing? I honestly believe that the solution is in the middle...between individuality and manual....

 

[Leo]

Re: PES 2011 News & Rumours Discussion thread

I'm just baffled how you can even question the fact that FIFA had a new engine built for this generation of hardware whereas PES hasn't. That's a fact.

And I also hope you agree that all this talk about new engine/old engine/purple engine is pretty useless as not many people (or any) on here has any real knowledge about it in general, and certainly not in PES/FIFA in particular (how their engines are built up, etc). So talking about such things are irrelevant, but you should talk about what should be done. PES needs better animations for one, if they need a new engine or just add a random text phrase in the engine code I really don't care about. Of course from there you can take it and say that they haven't managed to do it in so many tries that a new engine is probably needed, but that really doesn't matter as long as it's fixed, right?

Noone criticised FIFA/PES for not having 360 movement? Come on, I've seen it several times over the years on all kinds of different sites. It's just one of those things that is a natural progression towards the real thing as it becomes possible to do, just like the graphics will get better and the spectators becomes more detailed and life-like.

 

[Dusse]

Re: PES 2011 News & Rumours Discussion thread

I wonder since NONE used manual passes in PES5 which is considered as the pinnacle of footsims....Why suddenly manual is the most important thing? I honestly believe that the solution is in the middle...between individuality and manual....

Becuase the manual passing in PES is shit and unusable. They should be mapped to a button an be truly 360 degrees.

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

Re: PES 2011 News & Rumours Discussion thread

Fair enough, I agree with this.
But I've seen a lot of times players dragging the ball back, moving it sideways with the side of the foot, then turning 90°. Not even players like me (I have the dribbling speed/accuracy of a sofa) do that so often..


I mean players that perform a sort of "sliding tackle" to hit the ball. I find that it's performed way too often, and in some of the cases it's really unnecessary.
I would welcome "sliding interceptions" or "sliding deflections" but not a player that slides to kick a ball that is in front of him, while the closer opponent is 2 metres far..

I totally agree with that. It's something that doesnt sit well with me either.

 

[Jamezinho]

Re: PES 2011 News & Rumours Discussion thread

I'm just baffled how you can even question the fact that FIFA had a new engine built for this generation of hardware whereas PES hasn't. That's a fact.

And I also hope you agree that all this talk about new engine/old engine/purple engine is pretty useless as not many people (or any) on here has any real knowledge about it in general, and certainly not in PES/FIFA in particular (how their engines are built up, etc). So talking about such things are irrelevant, but you should talk about what should be done. PES needs better animations for one, if they need a new engine or just add a random text phrase in the engine code I really don't care about. Of course from there you can take it and say that they haven't managed to do it in so many tries that a new engine is probably needed, but that really doesn't matter as long as it's fixed, right?

Noone criticised FIFA/PES for not having 360 movement? Come on, I've seen it several times over the years on all kinds of different sites. It's just one of those things that is a natural progression towards the real thing as it becomes possible to do, just like the graphics will get better and the spectators becomes more detailed and life-like.

I agree that talk about engines is of no real importance. It's how the game plays in the end that matters, so I don't really care if PES2011 uses the same or a new engine as long as the end product is good. There was a time when the words 'game engine' were never mentioned as it never seemed to matter until now.

PES animations aren't that bad in my opinion, it's the transition between animations that's problem. If that's fixed the game will move so much better.

Regarding 360 - I don't want to labour the point, but for me it's not a game-maker or breaker. Many Fifa fans are back playing 09 as it's considered a better game than 10, so it's not something that people can't live without once experienced. I do want more degrees of freedom, though. That is important to me.

 

[Niero]

Re: PES 2011 News & Rumours Discussion thread

Becuase the manual passing in PES is shit and unusable. They should be mapped to a button an be truly 360 degrees.

Manual is not the answer without individuality.

 

[Jamezinho]

Re: PES 2011 News & Rumours Discussion thread

I wonder since NONE used manual passes in PES5 which is considered as the pinnacle of footsims....Why suddenly manual is the most important thing? I honestly believe that the solution is in the middle...between individuality and manual....

Manual is not the answer without individuality.

I fully agree. I think Fifa's semi-manual passing/shooting combined with PES's individuality would be the dream combination.

A football game is nothing if the players on the pitch don't feel individual and unique.

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

Re: PES 2011 News & Rumours Discussion thread

I fully agree. I think Fifa's semi-manual passing/shooting combined with PES's individuality would be the dream combination.

A football game is nothing if the players on the pitch don't feel individual and unique.

Rule Number 1, right there.

 

[Dusse]

Re: PES 2011 News & Rumours Discussion thread

Manual is not the answer without individuality.

Assisted is no answer in any situation.

 

[Lami]

Re: PES 2011 News & Rumours Discussion thread

I fully agree. I think Fifa's semi-manual passing/shooting combined with PES's individuality would be the dream combination.

A football game is nothing if the players on the pitch don't feel individual and unique.

Rule Number 1, right there.

Definitely.

 

[Lons]

Re: PES 2011 News & Rumours Discussion thread

Guys all You are talking about new or old engine but you forget one important thing: "programming". I suppose that KONAMI an all Japanese market have problem with this thing. I don't believe that KONAMI is lazy and don't want make superb game, the same what they did a few years ago. This Company have clearly problems with programming in next-gen console like PS3. Maybe they needed 3 years to make next-gen graphics(Pes 2010) and 4 years to make nex-gen mechanics(Pes 2011) of the game. I hope so.....

 

[klashman69]

Re: PES 2011 News & Rumours Discussion thread

This is what makes it so frustrating, how can a legendary series like Pro Evolution Soccer turn into such shambles?
cheers

I looked into this and there are two main reasons!

1. Konami as a company simply haven't invested at ALL in any sort of new technology to support next Generation consoles, look at the list of games being released by them? the only game to feature SOME aspects that use xbox 360/PS3 technology is Metal Gear and not a lot either tbh. This seems like the main reason, if Konami like EA way back in 2005 had prepared for the next generation by giving their team brand new technology to build a game from we would have a much better PES today.

2. Too much praise for PES 6 etc.. and conflicting directions in which Konami needed to go in. PES 6 was the start of PES going downhill, it was a slight turn in the arcadey direction for the series which stupidly continued down that path for the disaster game called PES 2008, I remember people talking as if (and they still do) PES 6 was perfect when it clearly wasn’t. I remember on EA forums there were MANY new ideas being brought to the table and a clear need for a fresh approach to the series also for the next generation (back from 2005-2007) and that’s why FIFA 07 was a totally new game and why FIFA 08 was such a success for football sims.

With the next gen on the horizion back in 2005/6 Konami really should’ve been looking towards the community with fresh ideas and needed feedback into what everyone wanted from a Xbox360/Ps3 game. It’s clear they just assumed with PES6 that arcade was the way forward :fail:

Seabass said some shit about him having problems back in h last 3 years in making excuses for PES 2008 and 2009 but that’s no excuse for me, just keep releasing PES 5 with super graphics would've been better than what we got from those two games.

The best sports game I have played in terms of realism is 2K sports Top Spin 3 which was so realistic it was freaky! Only thing that spoilt the game was people online with their created players went over the top with the power attribute but apart from that it was a game pretty much 90% about skill! the presentation and the gameplay was addictive challenging and just brilliant (and i'm not even a gamer!) Compare that to PES which is about 60% about skill or fifa which is about 20%

I think back in 2005 we should of all made a campaign for 2K sports to make a football sim, I’m sure it would be much better than what EA and Konami have now.

 

[Lami]

Re: PES 2011 News & Rumours Discussion thread

Guys all You are talking about new or old engine but you forget one important thing: "programming". I suppose that KONAMI an all Japanese market have problem with this thing. I don't believe that KONAMI is lazy and don't want make superb game, the same what they did a few years ago. This Company have clearly problems with programming in next-gen console like PS3. Maybe they need 3 years to make next-gen graphics(Pes 2010) and 4 years to make nex-gen mechanics(Pes 2011) of the game. I hope so.....

Don't Konami have that Baseball game? It looks and plays good from what I recall. So why can't they do the same with PES on current-gen?

Tbh, no one knows whats going on except Konami HQ.

 

[Lons]

Re: PES 2011 News & Rumours Discussion thread

Don't Konami have that Baseball game? It looks and plays good from what I recall. So why can't they do the same with PES on current-gen?

Tbh, no one knows whats going on except Konami HQ.

Tell me why MGS 4 looks like PS2 game? They have problem with programming.

 

[klashman69]

Re: PES 2011 News & Rumours Discussion thread

As with most of Konami's post PES 6 ideas ... nice idea, poor poor execution.The animation fails outrageously I'm afraid. Yes, most defenders are less agile but that tap followed by a 45 degree turn is a joke, this only propels the arcade elements the game already suffers. John Terry is no Joe Cole on the ball but he is neither a gimp (arguable). Why they introduced such angular movement in low skilled players is bizarre, nobody in football moves like that & it's more ridiculous when you try a 90* , 180* or 360* turn.

Thats one of the reasons why i really like the game, it adds a lot of depth to game like in real life and makes many players feel really different and unique. Even when playing with teams such as Slovenia every player feels diffenet and you have to learn their strengths to get the best out of them.

I like the fact Centre backs turn like buses, Unlike on FIFA over the last two years i could run past players as if i was Lucio, Micha Richards or Vincent Kompany (ball playing centre backs which are a rare breed) The problem for me is that when moving very slowly on the ball and in transition terms there should be a LOT more freedom but in terms of running at normal pace i'm very happy with the way it is now with 'stiff' players.

Also, I don't understand how some believe the rails and lack of 360* control both on and off the ball (the feeling of being leashed gameplay wise) can simply be sorted with just an abundance of animations + collision system improvement etc. Only a new engine can cater for all the necessary overhauls required to get this series out of this rut. I just get zero ambition coming from this company & this seems to be encouraged.

Yes it can quite easily, look at the difference between FIFA 08/EURO 2008 and FIFA 09 in terms of animations and collisions.

It's huge, shame they went down such an arcadey route for everything else

Its clear PES 2010 is in the same stage as FIFA 08 in which it's VERY limited in certain aspects like you talked about and a new system is to be put in. I noticed the dive function on PES 2010 is completely useless on PES 2010 (I really do mean useless, you can't fool the ref, it's impossible) In PES 2009 there were many set functions in the game for where a dive should be performed an which some have been taken out (shirt pulling) and in which even when players stick a leg out and when the opponents slide tackles near you, diving is useless.

That indicates they have a NEW system for tackling/collisions and it's at a very basic stage at the moment. If they were still using the old PS2 glossed system then why doesn’t diving work anymore? Why has the ref gone from giving penalties at a good/normal rate even on shitty PES 2009 to barley giving them at all on PES 2010?

I am being rather optimistic since there isn’t any excuses anymore for Konami and there a clear direction in which this game must go, Seabass has admitted this himself and has indicated that this is the main thing the must work on (animations, collisions) and i await to see how they will do.

 

[klashman69]

Re: PES 2011 News & Rumours Discussion thread

Tell me why MGS 4 looks like PS2 game? They have problem with programming.

Maybe because of what i said here
http://forums.evo-web.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1886569&postcount=171

It's the 'most' PS3 looking game they have which says a lot!

 

[Batugol]

Re: PES 2011 News & Rumours Discussion thread

it's not true that nothing changes.. Even if my favourite one is PES6 PS2, I must admit that PES2010 has been a huge improvement over the 2009 one, and the 2009 one has been a fair improvement over the 2008 one.

So I'm confident.

Yes 2010 looks good but what i mean is Pes 6 still better even it's much older,since many year's they still cant beat Pes 6 even it's their own game..

 

[Jamezinho]

Re: PES 2011 News & Rumours Discussion thread

Don't Konami have that Baseball game? It looks and plays good from what I recall. So why can't they do the same with PES on current-gen?

Tbh, no one knows whats going on except Konami HQ.

Pro Baseball Spirits 6 (PS3)

YouTube - Pro Baseball Spirits 6 Trailer HD

Looks great and reputedly plays very well. At least proof that Konami have the ability to produce a proper next-gen sports game.

 

[Niero]

Re: PES 2011 News & Rumours Discussion thread

KONAMI's love for Sony was their downfall:
In November 2005 EA made FIFA06 RTWC the first NG FIFA which was beyond crap. In comparison FIFA 10 is like EA made another engine BUT THEY DIDNT.
KONAMI made PES5 PS2

October 06 EA made FIFA 07 NG
KONAMI stuck in PES6 LG

October 07 EA made FIFA 08 NG THE THIRD NG FIFA
KONAMI made PES2008 the FIRST NG PES....a joke

October 08 EA made FIFA 09 NG FOURTH FIFA on NG consoles
KONAMI is on second PES 2009

EA had 2 years headstart because it didnt care about Sony....It made TWO failiures FIFA 06 RTWC and FIFA 07....And learned. KONAMI stubbornly waited for PS3 to be released....IF KONAMI was in synch with EA PES2008 would have been PES 2006 Xbox360....PES2009 would have been PES2007 and PES 2010 would have been PES2008...By now we would be on 5th PES NG its like we would be playing PES2012....in 2009...

 

[TanMak]

Re: PES 2011 News & Rumours Discussion thread

Pro Baseball Spirits 6 (PS3)

YouTube - Pro Baseball Spirits 6 Trailer HD

Looks great and reputedly plays very well. At least proof that Konami have the ability to produce a proper next-gen sports game.

Reputedly? According to what ranking basis? Also, PES Productions makes PES just as Metal Gear Solid is made by Kojima Productions. Both are published and under Konami but completely different studios.

Remember, even PES 10 looks great in some trailers.

 

[Jamezinho]

Re: PES 2011 News & Rumours Discussion thread

Reputedly? According to what ranking basis? Also, PES Productions makes PES just as Metal Gear Solid is made by Kojima Productions. Both are published and under Konami but completely different studios.

There was an article in OPM last year about Pro Baseball Spirits:

http://winningelevenblog.com/blog/opm-pes-saved-by-pbs/

The game was well received in Japan. The point of the article was to highlight the tech-sharing potential (or lack of) at Konami.

Remember, even PES 10 looks great in some trailers.

Does it? Konami's promo material for PES2010 was fucking awful in my opinion.