PES 2011 Discussion thread

sincover said:
8Kt9k.jpg


How many defenders does it take to stop Joe Cole?
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Fairly good example of the sheer nightmare that often occurs with the defenders brains going awol. It's one thing not having a big tackle radius, it's entirely another to have a player being an inch from the ball without even reacting.
 
sincover said:
8Kt9k.jpg


How many defenders does it take to stop Joe Cole?
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i don't know how many defenders it takes to stop Joe Cole. But this situation is not unrealistic. if you watch Spanish league. Watch how some teams chase Messi and watch the replay's. you will see similar situations.

When we talk about realism. i think this is something KONAMI does very well.

I agree that defending is very poor. in allot of these situation some defenders don't put out a leg.
 
With the picture the biggest issues are the two players in front doing absolutely nothing, if Joe Cole gets a shot in they can be there to block it but their body position/animation is completely wrong if they're planning on doing that. The guy is hassling Joey Cole from the right but regardless of this JC is lining up to take a shot. I don't personally see too many players in real life being able to take a shot when being pressured like that.. Plus it should be mentioned that shooting is very contextual as we know, you say shoot and they will even if it's not possible/probable that they could will make a decent connection (here's the kicker though, they usually do make a pretty decent connection a la the volley issue outside the box).
 
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Enlil said:
i don't know how many defenders it takes to stop Joe Cole. But this situation is not unrealistic. if you watch Spanish league. Watch how some teams chase Messi and watch the replay's. you will see similar situations.

When we talk about realism. i think this is something KONAMI does very well.

I agree that defending is very poor. in allot of these situation some defenders don't put out a leg.
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I do not disagree, however not even the great Barcelona can do this across the entire length of the pitch for 90 mins (I was playing against a div 2 team by the way).

In any case, I don't mind that this happens, I was just having some fun :P



Lami said:
Was he actually able to take the shot in the end?
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His right foot hit the defender's leg on the way down and the ref called a foul against me.
 
Enlil said:
i don't know how many defenders it takes to stop Joe Cole. But this situation is not unrealistic. if you watch Spanish league. Watch how some teams chase Messi and watch the replay's. you will see similar situations.

When we talk about realism. i think this is something KONAMI does very well.

I agree that defending is very poor. in allot of these situation some defenders don't put out a leg.
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I'm afraid I don't see this as a 'Messi dribble' situation. This is four players who are all defending impossibly badly, especially the guy on the left who is pivoting like a moron. There is no doubt that the way PES works in terms of dribbling can be quite good, but at times it is just a case of your players being ridiculously thick and incapable of tackling. I often find myself feeling utterly powerless when it comes to defending in situations like that. My players disobey and pull themselves out of position. It's one thing when I want them to tackle and they miss it, it's entirely another when I can't stop them making stupid commitments.

I'd seriously pay for a tackle button.
 
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Rodelero said:
I'm afraid I don't see this as a 'Messi dribble' situation. This is four players who are all defending impossibly badly, especially the guy on the left who is pivoting like a moron. There is no doubt that the way PES works in terms of dribbling can be quite good, but at times it is just a case of your players being ridiculously thick and incapable of tackling. I often find myself feeling utterly powerless when it comes to defending in situations like that. My players disobey and pull themselves out of position. It's one thing when I want them to tackle and they miss it, it's entirely another when I can't stop them making stupid commitments.

I'd seriously pay for a tackle button.
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Again, Situation not unrealistic. Poor defending ? YES
 
I watch quite a lot of poor defending as an Arsenal fan, and I don't think this is a matter or realistic poor defending. It's a matter of poor AI and unrealistic actions. If you look at what 'poor defending' tends to be in real life, it does not include "pivoting slowly & stupidly on the spot as a player charges into the box and a player runs behind you". No player would react (or not react) like that.

Is it impossible to see a player dribbling tightly between defenders? Of course not. It happens quite a lot at the top level - but not like this - that's a total mess and I'm not sure how it's really defensible. Player's should not seem totally unaware of the ball as at least two of those players seem to be in that shot. You would never see a player doing what the one on the left is doing in real life.

The defending on PES leaves quite a lot to be desired. There is a lot of room for innovation and improvement this year.

YouTube - Lionel Messi Dribbles and Skills

Go to 1m 28s or so.

If you take this for an example, this is what tight dribbling is more liable to look like - the players don't get the ball but they aren't completely unaware that the ball exists!
 
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may i ask as a preference what speed everyone else is playing the game at, i have the game on +2, speeds lower than this makes the game alot less responsive, my second wish for pes 2012 is for seabass to get rid of this speed option.
 
sincover said:
His right foot hit the defender's leg on the way down and the ref called a foul against me.
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Hahaha

Rodelero said:
I'd seriously pay for a tackle button.
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DLC. You can have shoot, pass and cross but if you want to tackle you're going to have to pay for it.

Primepeace said:
may i ask as a preference what speed everyone else is playing the game at, i have the game on +2, speeds lower than this makes the game alot less responsive, my second wish for pes 2012 is for seabass to get rid of this speed option.
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I'll give that. It's a ridiculous speed but you actually feel in control. The speed control is a decent idea if it's worked on like Fifa's. Albeit i'd wish for it to make a noticable difference, unlike Fifa's. The way it is on PES at the moment is simply universally slowed down or sped up, kind of like somebody is pressing slow rewind or fast forward on a DVD.
 
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ccshopland said:
No, I play mainly on ten minute halves. I admire your passion and your defence of PES, in parts I really like it, but it doesn't stop what I have experienced and the short comings of the game. I could play on one minute halves, or a hundred minute halves, the fundamentals of my argument, I believe, remain the same.
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That's what I'm talking about. You know, you set it to ten minutes. The game changes depending on how many minutes you play. Pere Ubu plays on 30 minutes but gets realistic results in pretty much all his games and again with me i've had 1-0, 1-1 games on 30 minutes.

Here's an example of the difference just between 10 and 15 minutes: it's substantial:

zlac said:
More testing, Villarreal (default) vs. tweaked Barca, using new team styles.

With 10min matches, there were hardly any visible differences. They outshot me (a lot), possession was pretty much even, 1-1, I won on penalties. Again, huge gap between Alves and Pique, diagonal through ball to Cazorla. Could have scored more, but lady luck wasn't on my side. Through-balls are decently effective against Barca.

They I finally switched to 15min and ... to be honest, it felt like a different game altogether. Bit more calmed down. Everything that was effective against Barca in 10min setup simply wasn't effective any more (i.e. through ball spamming), they were more organized, didn't rush that much. Again, they outshot me, but possession was pretty much evened out. Played two games, lost both of them. 0-3 in the first match, cheesy 2nd and 3rd goal. 0-1 in second, conceded in late 80-es. Although I had been able to maintain decent possession, most of the time I was pretty much helpless, unable to do anything concrete or dangerous.

Hmmm, I'm starting to wonder whether this game really is meant to be played on 10min matches?
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It's because of the way the game made it's better on longer half's, things like first touches and passing speed. On PES defenders really aren't very agile due to stats and unless you have a very strong team with high defensive stats they often fumble. Most of the tactics aren't set up either realistically or to be solid and in general the game really isn't great on 10 mintues.

I agree with all the stuff you say but really it's almost a completely different game on 15, 20 minutes plus for example. You will be very surprised, trust me :)

PES6 ps2 is much more suited to 10 mintues because everything is instant! Instant first touch, instant turning, more rigid defending, everything is more responsive so it a better 'game' on 10 minutes but it way too much about sprinting and fake shooting past players etc.. It's not as balanced.
I'm not really up with the German league etc, Bundesliga used to be nauseating a few years ago, it's obviously perked up lol! My point was that you should be able to play different styles, but have a trade off in tactics. I don't think employing a few tactics here and there will change the core principles of the game, so a lot of my little points remain.
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Thats ok, it's a very exciting league btw. But trust me, tactics on this game dictate the game much more than on any other PES game. totally changes how the AI team plays!

You have played against Barca before on this game. With the default tactics is easy, i don't think i've been beaten but hem once, they just pass forward all the time and it's easy to beat their high line

it's because they aren't set up properly. The default tactics are based more around when Ibrahimovic was there and it's not telling Barca to conserve possession. In the tactics thread, give them this formation which was developed over discussions at JustPES give Barca this and lay against them.

http://img201.imageshack.us/img201/3358/barcelona1.png

The best i've done is get a draw against them with Madrid (in 15 minute games) They just dominate possession and mug you when you have the ball like in real life! Messi is a complete nightmare, so hard to tackle, and just moves about everywhere, Xavi just loves to turn away from you. Then there's Iniesta, Villa etc..

Now that's just Barca, there's plenty of other teams there.

Many teams especially premierleague teams are give the complete wrong and unrealistic tactics and most of them in fact are just give the exact same one! Now combine that playing with 10 minutes then you aren't getting the best out of the game. Like zlac found out :)

I'll let Konami off, they have spent so much time on making this new game and getting the engine and functions right, they are clearly a bit out of touch on how certain teams play and there's translation issues with their means to present tactics but they have given us all the tools!

Just as a side note, I played 14 consecutive games on PES6 today on PS2, it's been a long, long, long time since I did that with a game. It has so many things done right that PES2011 is doing wrong. Most game are 0-0, 1-0, 1-1 affairs, when I score it is a real buzz as goals are so hard to come by.
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I said before, but my favorite was PES5, didn't like PES 6 at all. too much about fake shots and sprinting for me, i mean like i said everything is instant, responsive so it's easier to get into and the defences are much more organized by default, it's more rigid (8 directions etc..) and compact so it's not easy like in PES 2011 on 10 mintues,

And changing the time of the halves won't change the fact that responsiveness is sometimes god-awful. I had a match the other day where if I had played it for half an hour I would have been swinging from the gallows, it was THAT BAD! Turgid, players turning like trucks, a midfield scrap fest, balls bouncing off here there and everywhere, all with a patched game. You just can't know how the game will play. The best PES2011 is out of the box, but it's too easy.
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I would suggest holding R2 as i do for most first touch, i dunno, depends who you were playing with, i mean like the who shit first touches with average premierleague teams but when i give it to a gifted player he controls instantly! I mean my main issue is player collisions and rather poor physics/jerky animations.

There are responsiveness issues, poor player switching so i dunno if it's just those tot he extreme or maybe you where expecting too much from average players. I suspect your right and the game was freaking out.

So finally i don't feel as if your wrong actually it's more i think you very much like many others here who still have 10 mintues as the basis, expect the game to play like it did on PES 6 with all the instant response and everything, and in general being good out of the box really. I'm just here to just show you, PES has moved on and changed it's ideology a bit, it's more based on individuality, tactics and with players no having instant first touches anymore longer halfs gets the best out of PES.

I have an option file i'd like you to try out.
 
Rodelero said:
I watch quite a lot of poor defending as an Arsenal fan, and I don't think this is a matter or realistic poor defending. It's a matter of poor AI and unrealistic actions. If you look at what 'poor defending' tends to be in real life, it does not include "pivoting slowly & stupidly on the spot as a player charges into the box and a player runs behind you". No player would react (or not react) like that.

Is it impossible to see a player dribbling tightly between defenders? Of course not. It happens quite a lot at the top level - but not like this - that's a total mess and I'm not sure how it's really defensible. Player's should not seem totally unaware of the ball as at least two of those players seem to be in that shot. You would never see a player doing what the one on the left is doing in real life.

The defending on PES leaves quite a lot to be desired. There is a lot of room for innovation and improvement this year.

YouTube - Lionel Messi Dribbles and Skills

Go to 1m 28s or so.

If you take this for an example, this is what tight dribbling is more liable to look like - the players don't get the ball but they aren't completely unaware that the ball exists!
Click to expand...

I see you point but i agree with Enil tbh. i mean it's probably just compactivness set to 0 or something? Or maybe leeds going super defensive. I think it's a lill harsh to really say it's unrealistic bad defending, there isn't a set way for teams to badly defend, i've seen instances of this before, like Sturridge and how he was able to easily destroy west hm who's defenders just stood and watched him!

sincover said:
His right foot hit the defender's leg on the way down and the ref called a foul against me.
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Dam player collisions, i cant believe at times how dreadful it is on PES 2011, it's shocking half the time! yet the gameplay is still so realsitic, says a lot really imo!
 
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Tbh I think defending on PES is pretty fair EXCEPT on through balls. They are absolutely unacceptable how defenders can't get a ball that passes millimeters away from them, every single time. Other than that, it's all down to the lack of animations (like old-gen PES had, players trying to tackle with their leg out for example) that makes it look poor sometimes. Other than that the A.I. does a fair job on getting the ball off a player.
 
I'd argue the AI does more than a fair job of getting the ball off a player, in fact it tilts defending way in it's favour as and when it likes.

Tonight I played a friendly, as Chelsea vs Everton. I absolutely hammered them. Won only 3-0, but had 29 shots on goal, 17 on target, to their 1. Played some awesome football, brilliant stuff. The friendly was on Professional, with all form arrows for both teams set to red.

I decided to then have another game, pressed 'rematch', and then saw as the AI was completely changed. I was totally unable to have the time to string more than two passes together, as the AI was suddenly man-marking me all over the pitch. Their defenders were clearly sprinting at a vastly superior speed than mine, by the time I'd bring the ball under control I'd have 3-4 AI players marauding over to me at full speed and be on top of me in seconds. You couldn't dribble, they were not only faster but suddenly twice as strong, and would just shove you off the ball every single time. The difference was massive, against the same team, same tactics, same everything. Oh and whereas they had a reasonably normal formation in the first match, after about 65 minutes of the second I had a look at their formation in the game plan screen and they had something you'd only expect to see in some online comedy formation. Basically, it was the keeper, then the back four, another four midfielders virtually occupying the same space as the defenders. Basically 8 defenders, a keeper, and two other players shoved up front. No midfield whatsoever. Nevertheless, try playing against it, it's impossible. You have the ball for 70% of the match, venture into their half, and be hit with a brick wall of 9 overpowered defenders almost standing on top of each other, it was that packed with defenders.

So I call bullshit on the AI defending, it decides as and when it wants to make it possible to play decent football, and otherwise decides to make the game a massive chore and overpower their defenders in physical challenges. In my first match I was able to hold up the ball, occasionally beat a man, wait for options, it was really realistic. The second match saw the ball like a hot potato, you had to instantly get rid of the ball because the same players were suddenly sprinting like madmen all over the park without any consequences to their stamina later in the game. There was plenty of auto catch up, Ashley Cole has the whole touchline to run down and oddly Tim Cahill manages to make up 10 yards in about 3 seconds, then shove him over.

Likewise, Didier Drogba, was put clean through on goal, yet managed to get physically bullied and brushed off the ball by Leighton Baines. Drogba staggered off the screen as the mighty powerhouse that is Baines ran off with the ball. So yeah, I call the defensive AI as selectively cheating to mix it up a bit. It's bullshit. One minute it's physically even, you have time to have at least some options, can sometimes dribble, the relevant big players tend to win challenges and quick players can beat players for pace - the next minute, the same AI defenders are all transformed into bionic musclemen with 100m gold medals round their necks.
 
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Northzzz said:
Hahaha



DLC. You can have shoot, pass and cross but if you want to tackle you're going to have to pay for it.



I'll give that. It's a ridiculous speed but you actually feel in control. The speed control is a decent idea if it's worked on like Fifa's. Albeit i'd wish for it to make a noticable difference, unlike Fifa's. The way it is on PES at the moment is simply universally slowed down or sped up, kind of like somebody is pressing slow rewind or fast forward on a DVD.
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I love the speed options, I'm currently using -1 which feels perfect. I think that Konami should, and hopefully will, continue down this road, but yeah put the game on +2 or something and it all speeds up out of kilter. Players move like they're extras in a Benny Hill sketch.

I think the only way to satisfy most people is to enable people to tailor stuff like speed, cameras, time of day and weather etc to their own taste. By letting people choose as much as possible about how their game is set up, the less gripes people will have.
 
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I think the reaction times of the players on -1 sucks. Sometimes it feels like i am wrestling with the controller to make them react to the damn ball that is 2 yards away.

The speed of the game when played at -1 is great (ball movement, player speed etc) it just sucks about the reaction times of players. I don't want everything instant like Fifa but sometimes the players just don't seem interested in the ball. I always thought defending suffered so much on -1 too, presumably because of the lessened reaction time and the fact that defenders sometimes don't react well at the best of times. It's because as i said before they just universally sped or decreased everything. If they want to use a speed function they should probably work on it more. As it is now i'd have the reactions of players from +1 and the speed of the gameplay from -1.
 
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"don't want everything instant like Fifa but sometimes the players just don't seem interested in the ball. I always thought defending suffered so much on -1 too, presumably because of the lessened reaction time and the fact that defenders sometimes don't react well at the best of times."

you are so right about this i have been screaming my lungs off because of this, they should actually re release 2011 and cancel 2012 for next year it's not fair that players just simply ignore the movement of the ball and play in another way, im furious about this, iv never been dissapointed as much, it's almost like 2010.
 
2010, at times, is much more responsive even.. Talking about the Blue Samurai version here as I can't really remember PES 2010.
 
Ok the shooting animations have been bugging me for a while and I've been trying to put my finger on it. I think it's the backswing, or lack of it.

Sometimes the volley's and long rangers have realistic looking animations but the close range shots can look weird (the little dinks, the 1 on 1 finishes and the placed shot). It looks like the leg moves across the players body as if they were slicing it at 90 degrees rather than having some backswing and then kicking through the line of the ball.

It takes away from the beauty of the goal, or shot you've hit because it's so noticeable and so far from real looking that I wish PES had the FIFA shooting animations.

Don't get me wrong, FIFA's turning circle is ridiculous and has nowhere near the intricacy of PES' dribbling or subtleties but please Konami, within these 1000 new animations, can you make sure players kick through the ball not across their body at right angles?

It's funny that they can make some subtle little touches look really good and some shots look good but the easiest two animations look like a wood puppet!
 
sincover said:
For those with the PC version, if you haven't already, check out Jenkey's SFX + Gameplay patch. It adds a lot of atmosphere to the game. http://forums.evo-web.co.uk/showthread.php?t=63268

I'm so glad I bought the PC version, people like Juce, Yair, Jenkey and MxSonic routinely put Konami to shame.
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Here here Sin,100% agreed, it almost feels like i am playing 2012 already, especially now the penalty camera has recently been fixed.:COOL:
 
Makes me wish I had a gaming PC!

Playing a European Championships at the moment as Germany, it's great fun. I'm finding that I'm having more time on the ball by removing all the tactics from Management Edit in the gameplan screen, no idea why. I think these override the tactics in 'team style', so getting rid of them seems to be making a difference. Also, another odd thing is that if you, say, turn with a player then let off the left stick entirely, they almost drift for a few strides due to their inertia, but it seems to make the AI stand off just a fraction longer, buys you more time on the ball. This game really controls differently to any football game I've ever played, even simple player movement seems to go against everything I've ever been told to do when playing football games, which to me is a good thing.

Anyways, just beat Greece in the first group match 1-0, hammered them with 25 efforts on goal, only to finally break through in the 90th minute, Klose scoring. Beat Bosnia 2-0 in the next match, which I dominated early on, then took the lead with Klose again, before being put under a bit of pressure. I gradually worked back into the game and caught them on the break with a Khedira header in the 90th minute to seal the match. Love the cut scenes one game from the end of the group stages to show your players celebrating qualification. Unlike FIFA this game actually recognises when you mathematically qualify and acts accordingly, which is great.

On a different note, I posted this in the ML stories thread, but thought I'd ask here; basically, I wanted to start a ML as Marseille but with the default ML players like Hamsun etc, but also in division 2. It seems like it's impossible to do this, which is bizarre. You have to edit the league structure first, which again is nonsensical why you can't just swap your team with another in division 2 (you could even do this on the PS2). Trouble is, the French league for some reason doesn't appear, presumably because of licencing. So you can't alter the league structure, and it's impossible to play ML with Marseille without starting in the top league and with Champions League qualification already in the bag it seems. Anyone know of a way around this?

Oh, and for Jimmy, sorry for not answering your invitation, yeah an online game might be good in the future, were it not for the PSN fiasco going down! :(
 
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sincover said:
For those with the PC version, if you haven't already, check out Jenkey's SFX + Gameplay patch. It adds a lot of atmosphere to the game. http://forums.evo-web.co.uk/showthread.php?t=63268

I'm so glad I bought the PC version, people like Juce, Yair, Jenkey and MxSonic routinely put Konami to shame.
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well i don't find yair's patches any use at all really. they just make the game dead easy.

the rest of them have done a great job though, especially jenkey. Although sincover you should maybe try the PS3 version because the crowd is better (the ambient noise dosen't cut out like the PC one) and the there are a lot less bugs!

I wonder if anyone can can make barca play realistic? So every time you touch one of their players they roll around 20 times and surround the ref asking for the player to be sent off.

Or you player gets a second yellow for shooting after being given offside?
 
kobayashi said:
well i don't find yair's patches any use at all really. they just make the game dead easy.

the rest of them have done a great job though, especially jenkey. Although sincover you should maybe try the PS3 version because the crowd is better (the ambient noise dosen't cut out like the PC one) and the there are a lot less bugs!

I wonder if anyone can can make barca play realistic? So every time you touch one of their players they roll around 20 times and surround the ref asking for the player to be sent off.

Or you player gets a second yellow for shooting after being given offside?
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Have you tried the recent versions? Expecially 7.0c. I agree that his earlier versions were a little too easy, but he has since restarted from scratch. It is now a lot more challenging than the default game.
 
7.0c is reintroducing the demo style gameplay right? I do remember the demo being slightly different from the retail game. IIRC the game was slower paced.
 
...or a version where Arsenal do relatively well in the league but then always fall away at the end of the season

I mean if we're going to make it realistic ;)
 
tc811 said:
7.0c is reintroducing the demo style gameplay right? I do remember the demo being slightly different from the retail game. IIRC the game was slower paced.
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7.0c takes the best things from the demo and adds it to the full game. 7.0d is straight up just the demo gameplay.


Northzzz said:
...or a version where Arsenal do relatively well in the league but then always fall away at the end of the season

I mean if we're going to make it realistic ;)
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:WORSHIP: hahaha
 
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