PES 2011 Discussion thread

[CalcioCalabrese]

Is Rob your apprentice Jimmy?

LOL nice one. The enthusiasm is even rubbing off on LTFC who used to find all the faults with the game hehehe

LTFC - the R2 button that you use for shooting. Is that the manual modifier? I have remapped by buttons so that R2 is sprint. L1 is player change. L2 is special control and I think R1 is my manual modifier now.

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

Is Rob your apprentice Jimmy?

He is my Sensi with those type of posts mate, I couldnt write them any better. He calls it bang on the money for me.

 

[zlac]

LTFC - the R2 button that you use for shooting. Is that the manual modifier? I have remapped by buttons so that R2 is sprint. L1 is player change. L2 is special control and I think R1 is my manual modifier now.

It should be your L2 button, special control.

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

After beating Inter I qualified for the knockout stage of the CL- I loved the celebrations after that match indicating you have qualified even before you play your final group match.

My final group game against Cluj ended 2-1 to Olympiacos. We went behind early, but two goals in 5 minutes left the Greek fans very happy indeed. I also fielded my second string to give some of the fringe players a little taster, and also a chance for them to shine, which they did.

In the knockouts I drew Spurs. We won the first game at home quite comfortably, 3-1. My defence was superb, with only a Van Der Vaart's 30 yard stunning freekick giving Spurs hope. The return fixture saw Spurs give me a much tougher game. Gomes was on fire (on a Red), as Olympiacos struggled to secure that cushion goal. Defoe then raced clear to make it 1-0 to Spurs on 35 minutes. Panic started to set in. On 58 minutes, a carbon copy of the first saw Defoe make it 2-0 on the night, 3-3 on aggregate, but with Spurs now leading with the away goal. Spurs then immediately dropped to all-out defence. I actually saw the attacking bar reduced to 2 bars. Panic now had set in. I switched to a 4-3-3 formation, as I was doing this I noticed Spurs had gone 5-4-1. Ouch.

I really started to believe I was never going to score, but a quick turn in the box confused the Spurs defence, and a rash challenge resulted in a penalty to me on 81 minutes. Riera slotted it into the bottom corner. Phew. I then switched back to 4-4-2 as Spurs went 4-2-4. We caught them on the counter and leveled the score on the night after a sublime finish from Pantelic. The game ended 2-2, Olympiacos were through to the Quarters.......

The draw was then made, oh yes, we drew Barcelona.....

TBC......

 

[dannyfc2]

Hah I really want to play you Jimmy. I reckon I'd probably choke and resort to hoofball & lunging into your players, souring your opinion of me forever.

 

[Suuuuupertalk]

LOL nice one. The enthusiasm is even rubbing off on LTFC who used to find all the faults with the game hehehe

LTFC - the R2 button that you use for shooting. Is that the manual modifier? I have remapped by buttons so that R2 is sprint. L1 is player change. L2 is special control and I think R1 is my manual modifier now.

Yeah it should be L2 in your case, (R2 in the default control scheme). It's the slow dribble button that pretty much needs to be used with every action you perform, it's that important.

I've not noticed that the manual button (L2 on default button mapping) really does anything other than manual passing. Has anyone found any uses for L1 or L2 when dribbling? As for Rob's tip about using super cancel, it's something I've never tried, so I'll test that out tonight. Cheers Rob! Just to clarify, you super cancel as you're about to recieve a pass?

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

Hah I really want to play you Jimmy. I reckon I'd probably choke and resort to hoofball & lunging into your players, souring your opinion of me forever.

I'd love nothing more than to have an extended session on PES with yourself and Rob bud. If I hadnt sold my Xbox 360 a few months back, I would have definately bought PES 2011 for it just to play you both. No question. Shame. It was just gathering dust though, never played on it for about 8 months, so I felt it might as well go.

 

[xPJRx]

Yeah it should be L2 in your case, (R2 in the default control scheme). It's the slow dribble button that pretty much needs to be used with every action you perform, it's that important.

I've not noticed that the manual button (L2 on default button mapping) really does anything other than manual passing. Has anyone found any uses for L1 or L2 when dribbling? As for Rob's tip about using super cancel, it's something I've never tried, so I'll test that out tonight. Cheers Rob! Just to clarify, you super cancel as you're about to recieve a pass?

Dont dismiss L2 so quickly, ive said before, L2 is also very useful, its labelled as the 'close control' button whilst dribbling, allows tighter turns and also if you use it with air balls i find you can bring the ball down much much tightly and keep it closer to you, also whilst dribbling, pressing L2 as u go past a defender can initiate your player to rapidly stick a foot out and guide the ball past defenders or make a lunge to control a ball that is getting away from you.
I use L2 just as much as R2 in my game and not just for manual passing.

 

[Rob92]

He is my Sensi with those type of posts mate, I couldnt write them any better. He calls it bang on the money for me.

Haha cheers pal!

I think I talk a better game than I play though, my win percentage in MLO hovers just above the 50% mark (although I draw quite a lot of games) and some of my play at times makes me cringe in it's lack of quality or creativity
I'd love to have a few games against you and other like-minded folk, shame I chose the 360, PEEL seems to exist for that exact reason.

Just to add to my previous post - another factor in the depth of the gameplay is the importance of planning ahead... There's no point passing/running forward and gaining yards, if you're only going to end up in a 1 against 3+ situation with your striker with no support. I'm quite happy to let people do this against me, they're not going to score .

As for Rob's tip about using super cancel, it's something I've never tried, so I'll test that out tonight. Cheers Rob! Just to clarify, you super cancel as you're about to recieve a pass?

Well super cancel basically allows you to move your player around in situations where the game would "lock" them in or make them stand still, if that makes sense.

Using super cancel just before the ball arrives allows you to take the ball in your stride rather than stopping, trapping and turning. Depending on the speed/direction/height of the ball relative to your player, you can perform many different types of touches.
It's difficult to explain in words, I think it's one of those things that needs some experimentation, and will come naturally with time.

Hope it works for you!

 

[zeemeister]

Didn't realise Rob was on Xbox. I sent a PSN request mate.

 

[Suuuuupertalk]

Cheers Rob and xPJRx!

Might have to try these tips another time, I seem to be suffering a bit from PES-itis tonight, not much is coming off. Not sure why that happens, sometimes you score goals like you're a world beater, then suddenly even simple passes become difficult. I'm too inconsistent!

 

[tc811]

Cheers Rob and xPJRx!

Might have to try these tips another time, I seem to be suffering a bit from PES-itis tonight, not much is coming off. Not sure why that happens, sometimes you score goals like you're a world beater, then suddenly even simple passes become difficult. I'm too inconsistent!

It's not just you, this game is programmed to screw with your mind.

 

[Suuuuupertalk]

Well I went back to basics, put the game onto Regular difficulty so that I could have a bit of space to try and learn new parts of the game that I'd never tried, such as the R2 dribbling, R2 shooting etc, and it suddenly played like a dream. However, I do win most games now, so I upped the difficulty tonight to Professional and unfortunately all of the new skills, techniques that I'd learnt seem to do absolutely nothing against the AI on any higher difficulties.

What could I be doing wrong? I thought one of the key elements to the game was player balance, how many touches you take, and body position. This worked like a charm on Regular, taking tiny movements of the stick, using R2 when appropriate, seemed to buy yourself a little time on the ball, take more touches, and enable a whole variety of opportunities. In short, it was great. However I'm finding on Professional level that the AI simply runs into me with several players at once, and runs me off the ball.

I had been learning that you don't get anywhere in this game by using sprint a lot, but taking smaller movements on the ball simply allows the AI to catch you up in seconds and nudge you off the ball. Similarly, I'm finding that R2 dribbling doesn't have any effect - the AI just blocks the path of the ball whichever direction you take, and again, nudges me off the ball, kind of like this;

YouTube - 220411 0843


Now you could say 'turn away from the player' but I was travelling towards goal, with the intention of setting myself up for a shot, and the defender was behind me from the start, so I should have been able to fend him off. But the point really is that travelling with slower movements of the stick, which worked brilliantly on Regular in allowing you to transfer the ball from foot to foot, does nothing on Pro other than allow the AI time to sprint after you and literally run though your player. It happened time and time again tonight

Now I'm not having a go at the game, just finding it a little confusing how the game can open up so many possibilities with so many techniques to controlling everything from player movement to control of shots and passes, yet then ramp up the AI's aggression to such an extent that it makes most of it seemingly redundant. I've found the problem on Professional level or above is that the AI so aggressively hunts you down that you are physically no match for it, so when they close you down you have no option other that to quickly pass the ball. This is meaning that whereas I could keep realistic possession on Regular, and work the ball around, change the pace of my dribbling, and probe for an opening in front of goal, the game on Professional seems to be a relentless counter attack fest where you have no option other than to quickly pass the ball forwards just to keep the AI at bay.

So for the example of that video, where am I going wrong? Bear in mind that I was running midway in the AI's half, with no options left or right, but tried slow dribbling to keep the ball under control - which, on Regular, would allow your player to keep a decent body position and be able to mostly fend off the defender. Not so on Professional, he just rampaged into me and took the ball off me whether I liked it or not. Shielding seems almost non-existent on the higher difficulties.

Just kinda feels like all the stuff I've learnt and enjoyed on Regular seems to be ineffective against the AI on higher difficulties, and doesn't play as realistic a game. Yet, of course, Regular is simply too easy, not because the AI defends badly as such, but because it doesn't really attack you. I'm finding that neither does the AI on Pro, it just ramps up the aggression, and seems to nullify all of the dribbling options you have when on the ball.

How do people manage to dribble, or move forwards with the ball at slower, more deliberate speeds, and not get shoved off the ball?

 

[dannyfc2]

For what it's worth, I consider myself a good dribbler, but I find it a right old struggle maintaining possession close to the AI. In my opinion it's always been that way on PES, probably because the predictability of AI would have you dancing rings around them otherwise.

Online, with minimal lag you should be able to beat defenders quite easily once you've mastered the art of R2. It's all about interia and momentum.

One of the easiest ways to do someone while running alongside is to release every button and tap R2, so your player kills the ball and faces the defender side on. Then, in the second the defender comes to a stop, you shift the ball away from him with R1 and an analog direction, leaving him dead as he's left flat footed.

It's hard to explain a lot of the techniques since after a while you don't really register exactly what buttons you're pressing. I tend to tap R2 a lot while moving forward so the player sort of stutters, slightly threatening to change direction without actually doing so.

It all comes down to anticipating and waiting from them to commit.

 

[Northzzz]

I knew from the still exactly what would happen in that video. Seriously it's got to the point where that little stumble animation makes me mad.

Obviously in real football a player would sense the presence of the player behind him and shield the position of the ball with his body whilst maintaining a dribble toward to goal, there's no way he would be pushed in the back like that from a defender. The defender wouldn't touch him or get that tight to him for fear of tripping him, he'd try to go round if he's fast enough and even then he'd have to make a perfectly timed challenge for the ball with the player in front constantly pushing the ball forward towards goal. Plus who runs DIRECTLY behind somebody like that.

Maybe i can't express it perfectly but to imagine yourself in the position that Podolski is in with full control of the ball and the defender behind him then it's so unlikely that a similar event would happen in an actual game. I know you mentioned it was different on regular than professional but even on multiplayer it is the way it is in the video.

Judging from that video, Podolski just doesn't look comfortable even when not being challenged. Konami need to do something where it looks like players are actually in control of the damn ball, i don't understand why it looks as if players struggle so much with ball control as it is at the moment. Perhaps it's an animation issue but at times it's kind of just like he's running forward and the ball happens to hit his feet rather than him moving them specifically in a position to dribble the ball. Only when he uses his side foot to move it slightly does it appear that way in the video.

 

[Suuuuupertalk]

Yeah it's becoming annoying to be honest, everything the game seems to promote goes out of the window with the higher difficulties. I just finished another game, and it felt back to the old problems I had before. Dominated possession, nothing creative worked against a brick wall AI and then I got done over by a last minute dodgy break away goal. Just like the good old days

Seriously there must be some way of being able to pull off dribbles and keep possession reasonably confortably when playing weaker opposition? I was Germany vs Bosnia & Herz, previous to that Germany vs Switzerland, and you'd think they were the best defensive teams in the world the way the AI's been carrying on.

Perfect example is the step over. On Regular, you can approach a defender travelling at a slow pace, do a couple of step overs and break into a sprint once it's finished. It sometimes wrong foots the defender and you sail past them if using a decent player at dribbling. Sometimes it works beautifully, sometimes it doesn't work at all. It works brilliantly, but isn't a 100% way to success.

On Pro, I tried the same thing, and 100% of the time the AI defender stands there like a brick wall as you do a step over then he puts his foot in and takes the ball irrespective of whatever you're currently doing with your player. There doesn't seem to be any sense of wrong footing the defender whatsoever, he ignores what you do and runs at the ball like a train, and nothing gets in his way.

Another example is this;

YouTube - 220411 0847

Ozil actually manages to trick the defender and drags the ball back, leaving the opponent on his arse. Nice. Now, Ozil has some space to dribble into, and weigh up his options. However, the AI defender manages to get back up, sprint over, catch up, then run into his back yet again, before forcing him to stumble off the ball, and the AI wins it back with the very same player who I'd just left on his backside. Is there any way to keep hold of the ball and fend off the AI without having to break up the attack and turn backwards? Seems to be a choice of pass, pass, pass in quick succession, or lose all forward momentum and turn away from goal when you'd already beaten a defender. Not only that, but whereas I begin taking tiny touches of the ball which previously on Regular bought me more time to do something, you can actually see me needing to break into a full on sprint just to try and avoid the onrushing defender from pounding into the back of me. Then of course comes the double team press, where a second player comes in and they gang up on you.

I'm totally baffled how the game can be so good, yet most of the good stuff seems to be eliminated with the higher difficulties.

 

[Rodelero]

One of the big issues I find with holding possession, whether I'm online or off, or playing with a friend locally, is the fact that there is a large speed penalty for the player who has the ball, just like FIFA. While on PES you can get past players, they will catch you regardless of who they are and who you are after a few strides.

It means, basically, that whatever you do, if they pressure you, you HAVE to pass every few seconds because you simply can't move away from them. The more I delve into PES the more I find it having some of the same exact problems FIFA does, speed penalty being the first and foremost in my mind.

 

[_anderson]

It's a bit strange reading this specially since most people complain the AI is too easy to get past and creates no chances at all during all game.

 

[sincover]

Yeah it's becoming annoying to be honest, everything the game seems to promote goes out of the window with the higher difficulties. I just finished another game, and it felt back to the old problems I had before. Dominated possession, nothing creative worked against a brick wall AI and then I got done over by a last minute dodgy break away goal. Just like the good old days

You've encountered the paradigm of AI in sports games. Higher difficulties don't result in smarter play by the AI. Instead, they are given unfair advantage in order to feel like a challenge. Playing this game on Top Player just feels dumb. CPU players become ultra-idealized versions of Maradonna and Bergkamp.

If you have the PS3 version I'd suggest getting Goalgerd's option file and trying Normal difficulty with that. If you had the PC version i'd say to try Yair and Jenkey's patches. They've managed to fix some of the animation and AI problems.

 

[Suuuuupertalk]

I've been thinking of trying Goalgerd's option file, might give it a go. I tried some games on Top Player and oddly found them to be more forgiving when you have the ball. Very strange. If anything, Professional seems to ramp up the AI pressure and challenges but sits them back in their own half. At least Top Player doesn't set out ultra defensive formations, so you have a little space with which to work in their half.

Anderson, the AI does barely create any chances all game. And I can still win games on Professional, it's just that the more creative, and exciting ways of playing, seem to be next to useless on this difficulty. Sure, there are ways of playing the game to win only, but where's the fun in that. I want to play realistic, exciting football in PES. I don't want to have Ribery on the ball, but decide to pass inside because I know he can't take on a full back due to he defender being some superhuman robot magnetically attracted to the ball.

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

The bottom-line LT is that you have a long way to go yet before you gain the experience to play effectively against Top Player. I have no issues with dribbling, passing, or creating time and space against the hardest difficulty level. Bearing in mind I play with Olympiacos/Chievo/Senegal against the likes of Inter/Madrid/Brazil on Top Player shows it's more than possible. It certainly isnt something your going to be able to master with the limited play-time you have in the bank to date.

Sprint is also your worst enemy unless used in very short bursts when the relevant space is there. Your better off letting the ball do the work, and if the option isn't on, go back and start again. You have to play the situation and not let the situation play you.

R2 and all the dribbling skills work very well against Top Player, it just requires a different level of competence. I really hope that doesnt come across as sounding condescending, that isnt my intention, but it is the bottom-line. It took me a good four months of solid play to be able to compete at that level with those lesser teams. So you have a long way to go yet, but you are on the right track.

Once in possession of the ball, try using R2 and the opposite direction to the way your facing to change direction. It confuses the AI on all levels, and really is gold-dust in this regard. I'll post a little video of it's effectiveness in tight areas with a goal I scored the other night.

YouTube - R2 turn and shot

 

[ccshopland]

Agree with most that's been said here. Goalgerd's file, if I'm not mistaken was gold dust when you had possession, but the problem was the option file was too responsive for the game, if that makes sense. I was getting silly scores like 5-4, brilliant going forward, some stunning moves could be put together. But trying to keep a clean sheet became impossible as everyone was just too responsive for the game engine.

I'm stuck in this very situation. PES2011 out of the box, brilliant, but too easy on Top Player. PES2011 with option files looks stunning with the kits etc, but the game breaks and there's plenty of game breaking through ball problems from the CPU. You also get these sluggish non responsive games which basically just spill into an all out shit fest. Then you have a good game, then you have two more shit fests. Then I go back into the cycle of uninstalling everything, playing the out of the box game, loving it, then finding top player too easy again - repeat, repeat!

If you read some of my other posts I've been obsessed this last month with finding the right game, I then went to PES6XBOX, then bought a PS2 just to play PES5 and then PES 6, that was after I bought every PES for next gen just to see how they all compare. I'm loving PES6 PS2 at the moment, perfect balance between attack and defence, obviously no 'how is this game going to play' issues, and generally a consistent, responsive joy, with perhaps a little too much emphasis on pace, but I don't mind that.

But coming back to PES2011, KONAMI really must sort out the AI, it's true. like so many on here say, there's winning for winning's sake, and there's winning (or losing) playing your brand of football. With the updates, option files etc all on, on top player, it is possible to win, but boy is it not the way football should be played. When playing Chelsea for example, who I think have high pressure on Top Player, it's basically just a hot potatoe, I could have Arnold Shwarzenegger shielding the ball and Torres would just waltzed through him like a little girl. That's what people are complaining about.

AI difficulty should be more about making space harder to come by, intelligent pressing when needed etc etc. Many variables should be exactly the same whether you're in beginner mode or top player. For example, Messi shielding the ball from say Kyriakos (sp), should always result in Messi maintaining possession, or a foul is given. You should't have Messi being able to do it in the first three difficulty levels, and then not being able to do it at the higher ones, it makes no sense at all. The stamina thing really pisses me off too on top player. If I'm playing Chelsea as say Liverpool then I know that the game sets them up as aggressive, pressing everything. But I should also know that if I maintain possession make them chase the ball a bit, and see off the storm, then they should tire a little?!? Not a chance. So there's no trade off between tactics in this situation. What Chelsea do most of the time against me is play a high line, high pressure and the game is so condensed, take into consideration that the responsiveness of passing is lot with option files introduced and what you have is a nightmare midfield shit fest, which ultimately the opposition will just wear you down through your stamina being drained.

The speed thing has to go, with defenders catching strikers easily, I can understand why they did it but it has to be eradicated. The whole CPU defensive thing needs to be ripped up. How many defenders go towards Bale and tackle him? None? Unless they have 2 or 3 defenders on him. This is where the game lets itself down again. If it's one on one defenders will back off, dropping deeper until there's support from other defenders. If a defender does make a challenge with forward momentum, and Bale does get round him, that's it by the time said defender stops his forward tackle thrust, turns, and starts to chase Bale is five to six yards clear and no stopping him.

Stuff like this really irritates me. The game has tried to go into great lengths tactically, but there needs to be more.

Every game should be a trade off, there shouldn't be a one way fits the victory. If you want to play fast, Premier League style football, then you can, but there will be a resulting stamina drain, and there'll be chances at either end (see Spurs-Arsenal), if you want to play a slow defensive game (ala some Bundesliga games), then that too should be possible. Through balls are way too accurate and way too powerful to accurately defend for ninety minutes in the game.

The Developers NEED TO GET THIS for this years installments, that increasing difficulty shouldn't just be cheap tricks by the CPU.

BUT, I also think we the consumer, especially with PES, need to seriously ask ourselves what WE WANT from the game. Every year we complain about this and that, but do we REALLY WANT REALISM. One of my main gripes is that if we want realism, then the football is way too easy to play in PES. I can play like Barce with Liverpool, well that shouldn't be. Man Utd don't play like Barce, they rely on a combination of defensive passing to create space in midfield, long balls up to the strikers, crosses from wide and counter attack. But I can play like Barce using United. Passing therefore I think needs to be more difficult, but individually it should be easier to keep hold of the ball. What I'm trying to say is that Konami need to free up the individual side of the game in respect to chance creation. I hate Rooney, but he should be a little dynamo, hitting long pin point balls here and there. When Ronaldo gets the ball for all you Barce-Real freaks out there, the defender should be shitting himself and backing off escorting him into a no danger space or buying time where others can assist in marking. Same with Messi. Berbatov, his languid slow and tight control of the football, technically brilliant should never get the ball off him. Gerrard, work horse running her there and everywhere. Tim Cahill, late runs into the box converting headers. Andy Carroll, should be a target for every Liverpool long ball, should win 80 per cent of headers to set moves going...etc etc, all this from player individuality. In football, I think the universal stat is if you don't score within say 5 passes you won't score. Goals are scored from mistakes, people under pressure, people tired, set pieces etc etc. Passing therefore at the top level isn't just for pretty's sake, it is designed to create space, so that people get dragged from their positions, to free up space for others. That's why pressing irresponsibly should be punished severely both from the players perspective and the CPU.

Lot of points, just a little rant off my chest!

 

[Suuuuupertalk]

Jimmy, just out of interest, do you use the Goalgerd option file, or the game 'out of the box' so to speak?

 

[Jimmy G-Force]

I'm not sure which option file I'm using to be honest bud. I think it's the WENB one. Either way, it's only kits and teams. The stats havent been touched at all, neither has the gameplay.

If you ever want to hook up online for a few games, drop me PSN request. I'm away on holiday for a week as of Tuesday, but anytime after that I'd be happy to play and have a look at your game and see what you know.

 

[henrys hand]

Agree with most that's been said here. Goalgerd's file, if I'm not mistaken was gold dust when you had possession, but the problem was the option file was too responsive for the game, if that makes sense. I was getting silly scores like 5-4, brilliant going forward, some stunning moves could be put together. But trying to keep a clean sheet became impossible as everyone was just too responsive for the game engine.

I'm stuck in this very situation. PES2011 out of the box, brilliant, but too easy on Top Player. PES2011 with option files looks stunning with the kits etc, but the game breaks and there's plenty of game breaking through ball problems from the CPU. You also get these sluggish non responsive games which basically just spill into an all out shit fest. Then you have a good game, then you have two more shit fests. Then I go back into the cycle of uninstalling everything, playing the out of the box game, loving it, then finding top player too easy again - repeat, repeat!

If you read some of my other posts I've been obsessed this last month with finding the right game, I then went to PES6XBOX, then bought a PS2 just to play PES5 and then PES 6, that was after I bought every PES for next gen just to see how they all compare. I'm loving PES6 PS2 at the moment, perfect balance between attack and defence, obviously no 'how is this game going to play' issues, and generally a consistent, responsive joy, with perhaps a little too much emphasis on pace, but I don't mind that.

But coming back to PES2011, KONAMI really must sort out the AI, it's true. like so many on here say, there's winning for winning's sake, and there's winning (or losing) playing your brand of football. With the updates, option files etc all on, on top player, it is possible to win, but boy is it not the way football should be played. When playing Chelsea for example, who I think have high pressure on Top Player, it's basically just a hot potatoe, I could have Arnold Shwarzenegger shielding the ball and Torres would just waltzed through him like a little girl. That's what people are complaining about.

AI difficulty should be more about making space harder to come by, intelligent pressing when needed etc etc. Many variables should be exactly the same whether you're in beginner mode or top player. For example, Messi shielding the ball from say Kyriakos (sp), should always result in Messi maintaining possession, or a foul is given. You should't have Messi being able to do it in the first three difficulty levels, and then not being able to do it at the higher ones, it makes no sense at all. The stamina thing really pisses me off too on top player. If I'm playing Chelsea as say Liverpool then I know that the game sets them up as aggressive, pressing everything. But I should also know that if I maintain possession make them chase the ball a bit, and see off the storm, then they should tire a little?!? Not a chance. So there's no trade off between tactics in this situation. What Chelsea do most of the time against me is play a high line, high pressure and the game is so condensed, take into consideration that the responsiveness of passing is lot with option files introduced and what you have is a nightmare midfield shit fest, which ultimately the opposition will just wear you down through your stamina being drained.

The speed thing has to go, with defenders catching strikers easily, I can understand why they did it but it has to be eradicated. The whole CPU defensive thing needs to be ripped up. How many defenders go towards Bale and tackle him? None? Unless they have 2 or 3 defenders on him. This is where the game lets itself down again. If it's one on one defenders will back off, dropping deeper until there's support from other defenders. If a defender does make a challenge with forward momentum, and Bale does get round him, that's it by the time said defender stops his forward tackle thrust, turns, and starts to chase Bale is five to six yards clear and no stopping him.

Stuff like this really irritates me. The game has tried to go into great lengths tactically, but there needs to be more.

Every game should be a trade off, there shouldn't be a one way fits the victory. If you want to play fast, Premier League style football, then you can, but there will be a resulting stamina drain, and there'll be chances at either end (see Spurs-Arsenal), if you want to play a slow defensive game (ala some Bundesliga games), then that too should be possible. Through balls are way too accurate and way too powerful to accurately defend for ninety minutes in the game.

The Developers NEED TO GET THIS for this years installments, that increasing difficulty shouldn't just be cheap tricks by the CPU.

BUT, I also think we the consumer, especially with PES, need to seriously ask ourselves what WE WANT from the game. Every year we complain about this and that, but do we REALLY WANT REALISM. One of my main gripes is that if we want realism, then the football is way too easy to play in PES. I can play like Barce with Liverpool, well that shouldn't be. Man Utd don't play like Barce, they rely on a combination of defensive passing to create space in midfield, long balls up to the strikers, crosses from wide and counter attack. But I can play like Barce using United. Passing therefore I think needs to be more difficult, but individually it should be easier to keep hold of the ball. What I'm trying to say is that Konami need to free up the individual side of the game in respect to chance creation. I hate Rooney, but he should be a little dynamo, hitting long pin point balls here and there. When Ronaldo gets the ball for all you Barce-Real freaks out there, the defender should be shitting himself and backing off escorting him into a no danger space or buying time where others can assist in marking. Same with Messi. Berbatov, his languid slow and tight control of the football, technically brilliant should never get the ball off him. Gerrard, work horse running her there and everywhere. Tim Cahill, late runs into the box converting headers. Andy Carroll, should be a target for every Liverpool long ball, should win 80 per cent of headers to set moves going...etc etc, all this from player individuality. In football, I think the universal stat is if you don't score within say 5 passes you won't score. Goals are scored from mistakes, people under pressure, people tired, set pieces etc etc. Passing therefore at the top level isn't just for pretty's sake, it is designed to create space, so that people get dragged from their positions, to free up space for others. That's why pressing irresponsibly should be punished severely both from the players perspective and the CPU.

Lot of points, just a little rant off my chest!

I agree with all of this.

 

[dannyfc2]

BUT, I also think we the consumer, especially with PES, need to seriously ask ourselves what WE WANT from the game. Every year we complain about this and that, but do we REALLY WANT REALISM. One of my main gripes is that if we want realism, then the football is way too easy to play in PES. I can play like Barce with Liverpool, well that shouldn't be. Man Utd don't play like Barce, they rely on a combination of defensive passing to create space in midfield, long balls up to the strikers, crosses from wide and counter attack. But I can play like Barce using United. Passing therefore I think needs to be more difficult, but individually it should be easier to keep hold of the ball. What I'm trying to say is that Konami need to free up the individual side of the game in respect to chance creation. I hate Rooney, but he should be a little dynamo, hitting long pin point balls here and there. When Ronaldo gets the ball for all you Barce-Real freaks out there, the defender should be shitting himself and backing off escorting him into a no danger space or buying time where others can assist in marking. Same with Messi. Berbatov, his languid slow and tight control of the football, technically brilliant should never get the ball off him. Gerrard, work horse running her there and everywhere. Tim Cahill, late runs into the box converting headers. Andy Carroll, should be a target for every Liverpool long ball, should win 80 per cent of headers to set moves going...etc etc, all this from player individuality. In football, I think the universal stat is if you don't score within say 5 passes you won't score. Goals are scored from mistakes, people under pressure, people tired, set pieces etc etc. Passing therefore at the top level isn't just for pretty's sake, it is designed to create space, so that people get dragged from their positions, to free up space for others. That's why pressing irresponsibly should be punished severely both from the players perspective and the CPU.

I really like this paragraph. (and the whole post, but this especially)

S'like what I was saying in another thread about Targetmen being ineffective. The game promotes intricate passing football, which is nice, but not at all realistic.

It all comes down to the defensive implementation, like has already mentioned. If you come into the back of someone it should either be blocked with the man in possession shielding, or given a foul. Sliding tackles should be a lot more susceptible to going array, very rarely do you see at top level CB go to ground unless he's near the touchline.


I would also like to see more inaccurate passes. At the moment passes tends to be severely underhit when you miss-time them, but there should be more variation in inaccuracy in regards to direction.

 

[kobayashi]

Agree with most that's been said here. Goalgerd's file, if I'm not mistaken was gold dust when you had possession, but the problem was the option file was too responsive for the game, if that makes sense. I was getting silly scores like 5-4, brilliant going forward, some stunning moves could be put together. But trying to keep a clean sheet became impossible as everyone was just too responsive for the game engine.

I'm stuck in this very situation. PES2011 out of the box, brilliant, but too easy on Top Player. PES2011 with option files looks stunning with the kits etc, but the game breaks and there's plenty of game breaking through ball problems from the CPU. You also get these sluggish non responsive games which basically just spill into an all out shit fest. Then you have a good game, then you have two more shit fests. Then I go back into the cycle of uninstalling everything, playing the out of the box game, loving it, then finding top player too easy again - repeat, repeat!

If you read some of my other posts I've been obsessed this last month with finding the right game, I then went to PES6XBOX, then bought a PS2 just to play PES5 and then PES 6, that was after I bought every PES for next gen just to see how they all compare. I'm loving PES6 PS2 at the moment, perfect balance between attack and defence, obviously no 'how is this game going to play' issues, and generally a consistent, responsive joy, with perhaps a little too much emphasis on pace, but I don't mind that.

But coming back to PES2011, KONAMI really must sort out the AI, it's true. like so many on here say, there's winning for winning's sake, and there's winning (or losing) playing your brand of football. With the updates, option files etc all on, on top player, it is possible to win, but boy is it not the way football should be played. When playing Chelsea for example, who I think have high pressure on Top Player, it's basically just a hot potatoe, I could have Arnold Shwarzenegger shielding the ball and Torres would just waltzed through him like a little girl. That's what people are complaining about.

AI difficulty should be more about making space harder to come by, intelligent pressing when needed etc etc. Many variables should be exactly the same whether you're in beginner mode or top player. For example, Messi shielding the ball from say Kyriakos (sp), should always result in Messi maintaining possession, or a foul is given. You should't have Messi being able to do it in the first three difficulty levels, and then not being able to do it at the higher ones, it makes no sense at all. The stamina thing really pisses me off too on top player. If I'm playing Chelsea as say Liverpool then I know that the game sets them up as aggressive, pressing everything. But I should also know that if I maintain possession make them chase the ball a bit, and see off the storm, then they should tire a little?!? Not a chance. So there's no trade off between tactics in this situation. What Chelsea do most of the time against me is play a high line, high pressure and the game is so condensed, take into consideration that the responsiveness of passing is lot with option files introduced and what you have is a nightmare midfield shit fest, which ultimately the opposition will just wear you down through your stamina being drained.

The speed thing has to go, with defenders catching strikers easily, I can understand why they did it but it has to be eradicated. The whole CPU defensive thing needs to be ripped up. How many defenders go towards Bale and tackle him? None? Unless they have 2 or 3 defenders on him. This is where the game lets itself down again. If it's one on one defenders will back off, dropping deeper until there's support from other defenders. If a defender does make a challenge with forward momentum, and Bale does get round him, that's it by the time said defender stops his forward tackle thrust, turns, and starts to chase Bale is five to six yards clear and no stopping him.

Stuff like this really irritates me. The game has tried to go into great lengths tactically, but there needs to be more.

Every game should be a trade off, there shouldn't be a one way fits the victory. If you want to play fast, Premier League style football, then you can, but there will be a resulting stamina drain, and there'll be chances at either end (see Spurs-Arsenal), if you want to play a slow defensive game (ala some Bundesliga games), then that too should be possible. Through balls are way too accurate and way too powerful to accurately defend for ninety minutes in the game.

The Developers NEED TO GET THIS for this years installments, that increasing difficulty shouldn't just be cheap tricks by the CPU.

BUT, I also think we the consumer, especially with PES, need to seriously ask ourselves what WE WANT from the game. Every year we complain about this and that, but do we REALLY WANT REALISM. One of my main gripes is that if we want realism, then the football is way too easy to play in PES. I can play like Barce with Liverpool, well that shouldn't be. Man Utd don't play like Barce, they rely on a combination of defensive passing to create space in midfield, long balls up to the strikers, crosses from wide and counter attack. But I can play like Barce using United. Passing therefore I think needs to be more difficult, but individually it should be easier to keep hold of the ball. What I'm trying to say is that Konami need to free up the individual side of the game in respect to chance creation. I hate Rooney, but he should be a little dynamo, hitting long pin point balls here and there. When Ronaldo gets the ball for all you Barce-Real freaks out there, the defender should be shitting himself and backing off escorting him into a no danger space or buying time where others can assist in marking. Same with Messi. Berbatov, his languid slow and tight control of the football, technically brilliant should never get the ball off him. Gerrard, work horse running her there and everywhere. Tim Cahill, late runs into the box converting headers. Andy Carroll, should be a target for every Liverpool long ball, should win 80 per cent of headers to set moves going...etc etc, all this from player individuality. In football, I think the universal stat is if you don't score within say 5 passes you won't score. Goals are scored from mistakes, people under pressure, people tired, set pieces etc etc. Passing therefore at the top level isn't just for pretty's sake, it is designed to create space, so that people get dragged from their positions, to free up space for others. That's why pressing irresponsibly should be punished severely both from the players perspective and the CPU.

Lot of points, just a little rant off my chest!

You play on 10 minutes don't you? 10 minutes is shit! You can't realsim in a 10 minute game, not enough time!

Play on 15 or 20, gets the bets out of the game, passing is slower, through balls less effective.

Seen people have issue, then bump up the minutes which solved the through ball abuse/passing being too fast etc..

Well I'd say 30 mins is the best, but bit long for ML etc..

Also use the tactics thread here since Konami DON'T every teams tactics realistically. It's possible in the game just need to be setup. The game isn't set up by default to be at it's most realistic.

BTW the Bundersliga is not slow and defensive. It's well madness! Pretty much every team plays a high line and games at times end 6-2, 6-3, 4-3! It's the highest scoring league in europe i think!

 

[tc811]

Yeah Dortmund are hardly a slow side these days.

 

[sincover]

How many defenders does it take to stop Joe Cole?

 

[ccshopland]

You play on 10 minutes don't you? 10 minutes is shit! You can't realsim in a 10 minute game, not enough time!

Play on 15 or 20, gets the bets out of the game, passing is slower, through balls less effective.

Seen people have issue, then bump up the minutes which solved the through ball abuse/passing being too fast etc..

Well I'd say 30 mins is the best, but bit long for ML etc..

Also use the tactics thread here since Konami DON'T every teams tactics realistically. It's possible in the game just need to be setup. The game isn't set up by default to be at it's most realistic.

BTW the Bundersliga is not slow and defensive. It's well madness! Pretty much every team plays a high line and games at times end 6-2, 6-3, 4-3! It's the highest scoring league in europe i think!

No, I play mainly on ten minute halves. I admire your passion and your defence of PES, in parts I really like it, but it doesn't stop what I have experienced and the short comings of the game. I could play on one minute halves, or a hundred minute halves, the fundamentals of my argument, I believe, remain the same. I'm not really up with the German league etc, Bundesliga used to be nauseating a few years ago, it's obviously perked up lol! My point was that you should be able to play different styles, but have a trade off in tactics. I don't think employing a few tactics here and there will change the core principles of the game, so a lot of my little points remain.

Just as a side note, I played 14 consecutive games on PES6 today on PS2, it's been a long, long, long time since I did that with a game. It has so many things done right that PES2011 is doing wrong. Most game are 0-0, 1-0, 1-1 affairs, when I score it is a real buzz as goals are so hard to come by. And changing the time of the halves won't change the fact that responsiveness is sometimes god-awful. I had a match the other day where if I had played it for half an hour I would have been swinging from the gallows, it was THAT BAD! Turgid, players turning like trucks, a midfield scrap fest, balls bouncing off here there and everywhere, all with a patched game. You just can't know how the game will play. The best PES2011 is out of the box, but it's too easy.