PES 2011 Discussion thread

sir_poc said:
How do you mean 'something dodgy'? when you concede goals. What kind of scripting or however you want to describe it are you pointing to?

I go to fratton park to watch pompey, we let in dodgy goals all the time, but it's mainly because we are shit, and shit players do stupid stuff. In fact good players do stupid stuff to, I think in general PES has a good balance of this. I want my defenders to feel like there's a mistake in them to be honest.

Or do you mean condeeding goals due to bad game mechanics along those lines? I can literally count those goals on one hand in PES over the years (the odd crazy glitch in the game). I'm not being sarcastic, I am just wondering what am I missing here?
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Play Master league offline(top player)you won't need an explanation, the more I explain the more I look like I am bitching, I know its there and KONAMI knows it is I just hope they improve the AI for next year and don't try and dupe me again. Hopefully the game will be free of the hideous balancing acts that are included this year.
 
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I have played a season and a half of master league offline top player, maybe not as much as you, but i have a good idea.

My only real frustration with the ML this year is arrows, and how they seem to implement them away from home. That's the only balancing act I've come across. But then again I certainly haven't played it as much as I usually do, because of the fun I'm having with the MLO.
 
As far as I'm concerned the scripting Seabass us referring to relates to the outcome of the stats, not CPU cheating. There has to be a level of scripting in that regard as that's the only way to highlight the differential. That's how Ibra and Co hit the net from 35 yards plus. Statistical scripting if you will.
 
Jimmy G-Force said:
As far as I'm concerned the scripting Seabass us referring to relates to the outcome of the stats, not CPU cheating. There has to be a level of scripting in that regard as that's the only way to highlight the differential. That's how Ibra and Co hit the net from 35 yards plus. Statistical scripting if you will.
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I'm not talking about stats and the effect that has on the game, I wouldn't suggest a game is scripted off a whim or because of what you mentioned i know how the game works its been my passion since I could remember. Seabass also said he wanted "games to run like little stories" this cannot be replicated by stats alone. They are trying to replicate the drama of a match but have gone to far in my opinion.

Sir Poc as far as the arrows go I like the idea behind this in terms of home and away, unfortunately it does not work both ways and that is a fact. The cpu's form is not replicated in the same way yours is.
 
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Sorry lads, but did anybody read my post about the lee bowyer goal, it was scripted. I dont mind a joke but fuck a pantomime! i really wished i had saved the replay. Even you jimmy couldnt have explained that one away.

All i can suggest to you lot is all hail the chimp and use one of his option files, because when the stats are properly implemented this game gets better. Like its already been said i dont mind scripting at all, its the manner in which its done.
 
buzzyhead said:
Sorry lads, but did anybody read my post about the lee bowyer goal, it was scripted. I dont mind a joke but fuck a pantomime! i really wished i had saved the replay. Even you jimmy couldnt have explained that one away.

All i can suggest to you lot is all hail the chimp and use one of his option files, because when the stats are properly implemented this game gets better. Like its already been said i dont mind scripting at all, its the manner in which its done.
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I didn't see any problem with it Buzz that's why. If Bowyer was scoring those every game in the last minute then there is a problem. By the sound of it, it was a one-off. Where is the problem ? If the boot was on the other foot (pardon the pun), and Bowyer had scored that goal for you in the last minute, it wouldnt even have got a mention. It has to work both ways.

Any player on any given day can score pretty much any goal. The great players are defined by their consistentcy to do it on a regular basis, see Gerrard. Are we to expect that the CPU isn't allowed to score goals in the final minutes of games now unless it has to be deemed as scripting ?

That's nonsense, anything can happen at anytime in football. Again see Man Utds win over Bayern in that CL Final. It is what it is.

I played a mate last night who beat me 3-2 with Athletico Madrid, he scored the winner in the last minute. It was off a 35 yard shot from his CB with a first time strike off a cleared corner. 29 times out of 30 that player puts that shot in Row Z. This was his moment of glory. Did I feel cheated ? No chance, suprised, but not cheated. Take away that type of randomness away from PES and you lose the magic that is synonomous with the brand. End of story.
 
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I think the way the AI in offline mode replicates the ebb and flow of a match it great. Sure, some people will look at it as scripting because for certain periods of a game, on occasions, you can't seem to get the ball, players easily close you down and everything seems to go against you, but I took this as a massive positive in favour of the game.

A great example is where you dominate but are only leading 1-0. More often than not, the AI changes tactics and puts a more all out attack strategy, then for the last 10 minutes you're inexplicably holding on. It makes you nervous that you'll concede a late goal, and this for me is amazing because although fairly artificial, it makes games more realistic. This sort of thing happens a LOT in reality because mindset and attitude play such a massive part of football.

Likewise, I played last night against a much weaker team, but for the first 20 minutes I could hardly get the ball, they were camped in my half. Instead of complaining that something in the game is making the AI much stronger than me against all logic of the player stats involved, I rode out the period of pressure, it eased off, then I took over the game and ran out comfortable 3-0 winners. However it's this kind of fake replication of the game's ebb and flow that makes PES far more dynamic in my eyes. Everyone says FIFA plays the same game of football over and over, and it does, because this type of thing is not seen in EA's game.

As for dodge goals, I've conceded some but they've actually looked realistic (goalmouth scrambles where against all logic I couldn't get to the ball in time being one), and to be fair, I've had an equal quota of benefiting from the AI scoring bizarre own goals and conceding soft goals. So for me it does swing in roundabouts.

I think some of the more bizarre goals are more a case of dodgy coding rather than scripting, because like I said, it happens for and against. I conceded a goal last night that left me open mouthed, where an AI defender cleared the ball on the halfway line, and it bounced through to my keeper, who stood and watched the ball gently roll past him and over the line. Surely just a random mistake. But likewise, I once benefited from an AI defender randomly turning towards his own goal and blasting it, under no pressure past his keeper and into the roof of his own net.

This sort of thing has happened only once for and against, but to be honest some goals I concede, while looking dodgy, could probably have been prevented in some way. And when the AI replicates late pressure if you didn't capitalise early on, well, sometimes you'll see the game out, sometimes the AI will do something you can't do anything about. That's football. And for me this generates far more interesting games to play than any other football game I've played in recent years. FIFA, for all it's flashy gimmicks, does actually cheat on World Class or above by making the AI more physically stronger and scoring identical types of goals you can do nothing about. PES, for all it's shortcomings, doesn't leave that sour taste of being cheated that FIFA does. Sure, like I said, you can concede dodgy goals in the last minute, but it just leaves me thinking that I'd been punished for not capitalising on early dominance, just as it happens so often in real life. It's sometimes annoying to concede a soft goal when you deserved to win, but again that's football, and if this element wasn't in the game then every match would play out exactly the same.
 
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UTD-PEARSON said:
I'm not talking about stats and the effect that has on the game, I wouldn't suggest a game is scripted off a whim or because of what you mentioned i know how the game works its been my passion since I could remember. Seabass also said he wanted "games to run like little stories" this cannot be replicated by stats alone.
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It can however be replicated with the management options which I believe is where the story side comes from. Being able to set your team up to change its formation and tactics at set points in the match dependant on the score at that time. Winning, drawing or losing.

If you find yourself down 2-1 in the last 10 minutes and you knew your tactics aren't working.... you pause the game and change them so you're now doing all out attack with CB overlap to get more men up front. You notice the change immediately because you know you;ve just changed the options and now know that men will start to push up more and can play into that more.

The AI teams are doing this on the fly (without pausing) so you never really notice the change in tactics until you witness them flooding your box. By the time that happens they're usually hoofing the ball in with crosses and scoring and you're incapable of stopping it as you have to pause, change to counter/defend against that and then wait for an off the pitch moment for the tactics to kick in. Of course hoping that the AI doesn't spot this and change it's tactics to re counter you.
 
henrys hand said:
Yes, a lot of the basic stuff is very similar, but there are also major differences:

1. Animation is way more varied and fluid in reallife-game!
2. Behaviour near the offside-defense-line is way more dynamic: Players make many more runs forward and when they come into offside they return quickly and try again to go forward... In the game.. it's no comparison actually.
3. Lightning is nice and clear, in game the lightning in such a night-game is very dull and dark.
4. Atmosphere is over the top in the real game espescially after Barca started trashing Real, in game it's not only way lower but also quite a bit static, even apathic to the goals made by the teams.
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from the 4 you summed up the first 2 would be a priority for me for PES 2012 the other 2 i can live without for at least another year.
 
Jimmy G-Force said:
I didn't see any problem with it Buzz that's why. If Bowyer was scoring those every game in the last minute then there is a problem. By the sound of it, it was a one-off. Where is the problem ? If the boot was on the other foot (pardon the pun), and Bowyer had scored that goal for you in the last minute, it wouldnt even have got a mention. It has to work both ways.

Any player on any given day can score pretty much any goal. The great players are defined by their consistentcy to do it on a regular basis, see Gerrard. Are we to expect that the CPU isn't allowed to score goals in the final minutes of games now unless it has to be deemed as scripting ?

That's nonsense, anything can happen at anytime in football. Again see Man Utds win over Bayern in that CL Final. It is what it is.

I played a mate last night who beat me 3-2 with Athletico Madrid, he scored the winner in the last minute. It was off a 35 yard shot from his CB with a first time strike off a cleared corner. 29 times out of 30 that player puts that shot in Row Z. This was his moment of glory. Did I feel cheated ? No chance, suprised, but not cheated. Take away that type of randomness away from PES and you lose the magic that is synonomous with the brand. End of story.
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I agree football is unpredictable, but in my master league games the late goals were like nearly every game. And my whole point about the bowyer goal was it was physically impossible for him to score the way he did. so to even call the goal a fluke is being kind. Btw last game i played against stoke away just got trounced 4-0! and they are currently 19th in the prem. 3 of their goals were fine, but their second was a dubious penalty and even though i went right for the ball it ghosted through reina's hands :CONFUSE: i have saved the replay and will post later . for the niggles though i will still say this is the most enjoyable pes for years, because when everything clicks its class.
 
Jimmy G-Force said:
The game itself Rob rewards taking that extra controlled touch, and having a look at your options. As opposed to, first time passes continuously. That extra time creates more options as the AI move off the ball. A slower, considered pace incorporating passes back, and to the side, is what opens up so many avenues to work down. That's genius in itself. Alot of people who are acustom to a pick up and play game will find this frustrating and 'broken'. It's anything but. I dont expect everyone to get this though, as it requires a level of technical footballing astuteness to fully grasp the idiology. And for me, thats where footballers and gamers differ.
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Excellent post. This aspect of football has become so clear to me over the last few weeks.

I played a few 2v2 friendlies and was partnered with a chap who was div 1. From playing with him, I realised that he has played the game to death, but that he doesn't understand football, he obviously doesn't appreciate angles or space and just looks to through pass forward at every opportunity, probably frustrated with me for not picking a striker and running full pace at the CBs every attack.

I would deliberately pass back, forcing this guy to change his conception and play it through midfield, hold up the ball, ait for the run. Even if the run isn't for a through ball on goal, but a cheeky angled run infront of the defense, so he can then 'bounce' it off my striker (who will only have one touch, but if you have a plan of what to do with that one touch, it's magic) and in doing so completely change the script of the attack.

The diehard lobby1 players have learned to counter each other and have degregated into playing this game on a lucky chance system. 20 through balls to Messi a game, 5 will get through, 2 will be goals. Reset, repeat, ad nausium.

My partner in 2 vs. 2 was like this, never looked to pass through the middle, gave through balls to strikers who were coming back to receive, forced it forward every time, panicked in defense and crossed even when there's nobody in the box.

He tells me 'wider please'. I tell him 'intelligent football please, more passes, pass and move'.

He challanged me to a 1 on 1 to show me his style was better.

I beat him 2-0 had 10 shots to his 2 and 65% of the ball. He was Real I was Roma. He did the same thing every time, I wish there was a pass stat for number of passes, I think I outpassed him at least 2 to 1.

I think he got the picture. He is a representative of 90% of online players. Guys like Jimmy are an exception.

But it just goes to show you, Konami understands football better than most of their audience.
 
ilfenomeno said:
here's a conspiracy theory: sometimes i think that konami doesn't want it on purpose to create a good pes, flawless pes, because pes is a game which has to be sold every year, konami doesnt want to create another pes6 which is still played by many even after 4 years, so this is why year after year there are improvements but also annoying things in pes, like people say: "they make 1 step forward and 2 backwards".
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You see, I hated PES6, it was the beggining of the stagnation. It was a turn to the arcade, my mates and I played it when it come out, but we all instantly realised that PES5 was so much better.
Everything looked smoother, but the game was scripted and gave a clear advantage to the attacking team, not my idea of fun. A football game is often gritty and it's tough to score, often for the full 90 minutes, and for long stretches in most games. Even when a superteam plays a minnow, their every attack will not be dangerous.

PES5 replicated this superbly, PES6 completely forgot this golden rule.

And for the record, think PES2011 is better than PES5 even.
 
Radiation said:
It can however be replicated with the management options which I believe is where the story side comes from. Being able to set your team up to change its formation and tactics at set points in the match dependant on the score at that time. Winning, drawing or losing.

If you find yourself down 2-1 in the last 10 minutes and you knew your tactics aren't working.... you pause the game and change them so you're now doing all out attack with CB overlap to get more men up front. You notice the change immediately because you know you;ve just changed the options and now know that men will start to push up more and can play into that more.

The AI teams are doing this on the fly (without pausing) so you never really notice the change in tactics until you witness them flooding your box. By the time that happens they're usually hoofing the ball in with crosses and scoring and you're incapable of stopping it as you have to pause, change to counter/defend against that and then wait for an off the pitch moment for the tactics to kick in. Of course hoping that the AI doesn't spot this and change it's tactics to re counter you.
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What I find interesting is where the computer is drawing its game management decisions from.
In my Master league offline mode I have removed all the game management set-ups from every team in both 1st and 2nd divisions,bar, of course,my own.
Now,in theory,the computer should play for 90 minutes in exactly the same way for every team I play.Not so.Every game is different and the computer adjusts its options dependant on the score.
So what is the computer using as its base logic for Master league as it would seem completely independant of any in game set-up.
 
theCRO said:
Hm, player stats, the score, the team strength, formation, your style...lots of variables.
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Yes your probably right, but it would be interesting to know just exactly what is going on.
I have found,however,that the computer produces some very strange formations both before and during gameplay which I cannot believe are the default settings for teams.Also ,I have not experienced any of the pressure fest some people have reported since the last update.Curious1
 
kgulls said:
What I find interesting is where the computer is drawing its game management decisions from.
In my Master league offline mode I have removed all the game management set-ups from every team in both 1st and 2nd divisions,bar, of course,my own.
Now,in theory,the computer should play for 90 minutes in exactly the same way for every team I play.Not so.Every game is different and the computer adjusts its options dependant on the score.

So what is the computer using as its base logic for Master league as it would seem completely independant of any in game set-up.
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I'd assume the game is either re adding tactics and settings while in a match or just managing like the older games would when we had no 'all out attack for the last 10 minutes if losing' settings. Just using the L2 and button presses to go all out attack or overlap and increasing the attacking pressure thing in the bottom corners.
 
Jimmy G-Force said:
It's funny you know, you get alot of armchair fans who think they know football, they may well know it to watch on the screen, but when it comes to the technical side, they pretty much know jack-shit. There are certain issues with PES that are widely acknowledged, and you dont need any real technical prowess to grasp these problems. Referees and collision detection is one, the player switching issue was another, the fact L2 and manual pass can clear the ball 6 miles is another. These are actual problems. The lazy striker issue isnt, it's coded. People who play football will tell you this happens in every match ever played. That was my point. Also, you state overly assisted passing ? That's a perfect example of a lack of understanding in my opinion The idiology is that in order to highlight individualism, the worlds best players have Ai assistance in order to highlight and replicate the differential skillset between themselves and lesser technically asute players. Try playing with Senegal, and you'll notice there is very little AI assistance for alot of their players with any passes attempted over 15 yards. Try Spain, and the difference is night and day.

For the record, I dont think you 'get it'. I've never read anything on these forums that has ever led me to believe you do. But that's just my opinion. For every one footballer, there are 20 armchair fans. Hence the reason Fifa sells so well. In my brutally honest opinion.
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Fair enough. At least for once you weren't so general with your insults.

Coincidentally, I'm not sure you "get" it either - no one is disputing Konami's emphasis on individualism only that the mechanics of the game currently make some things easier than they should be relative to real world difficulty levels. It makes me wonder who is the "armchair" footballer here if you think 30-yard through passes or acrobatic volleys or linking four tricks together in one move is as easy as Konami makes it.

Ideology is one thing, and I've repeatedly and consistently supported how Konami places emphasis on the fundamentals, but you are mistaking ideology for exaggerated and unbalanced aspects of gameplay. As someone who advertises himself as a fooballing expert, I'm surprised you don't "see" these unrealistic quirks that Konami still needs to iron out of its game.

And if the defense of the (imo) overly assisted through passing is Konami holding true to its ideology, does not including a manual passing modifier completely contradict said ideology? Under your line of thinking, wouldn't it basically be a cheat button? Are player attributes no longer important when using the manual pass? Is player individualism thrown out the door as soon as I press L2? There is a difference between CPU assistance and player attributes, is there not?

Furthermore, relying on CPU assistance to express player individualism is a method that most other sports games have evolved beyond with this current gen, and Konami's continued reliance on assistance has less to do with ideology and more to do with aging components of its gameplay engine(s). Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe you've said that PES is the only game you play? If so then maybe that's why you struggle to see how far behind in some areas PES is. For example, PES's ball physics might be the worst of any sports title I've played in recent years.

In the end, when it comes down to things like through passing, it has little to do with one of us "getting it" and the other not, and all down to the level of challenge we want from the game, and certain parts of the game. There are aspects of Konami's game that are too automated for my preference, leading to the game being less challenging than I'd like. After being away from PES since 2008, I am undefeated in my first ML, playing in the D2 on Top Player. Maybe it's just me but I would prefer things to be a little tougher. I love that i have to use my head to the degree that PES makes you, unlike FIFA, but it would be nice if the game required a bit more of my own skill as well.

As for real footballers vs. armchair fans, who do you think this game is being made for? As someone who has been playing football games since the first days of Nintendo (don't think Atari had a football game!) and who has played, reffed, and coached football for almost three decades, while I don't pretend to be the video gaming version of Pele-Mourinho that you do, I think I "get" enough to "see" the difference between the game's strengths and weaknesses.

I have different opinions to others in certain areas of how I'd like football to be reproduced in a game but I really don't think these differences come down to one person "getting it" and the other not. I am neither the best footballer or gamer out there but, like most people who have voiced similar criticisms of the game, I don't think my credentials are the problem. If my experience with game, IRL and on the console, isn't enough - is there a test out there I need to pass? - then Konami's market is tiny indeed.

Now that we've got you no longer hiding behind blanket insults, maybe next on the list is to drop the elitist attitude and recognize that other people's opinions, whether they come from armchair fans or professional ballers, are just as valid as your own and as such do not deserve to be insulted and disregarded because in your high opinion they don't "get" it. If you feel that changes others suggest would harm the game, like less CPU assistance leading to less individualism, then how about just saying so rather than belittling your fellow PES fans? As I've said before, most people on here are pleased more or less with Konami's overall approach to reproducing the beautiful game (why else do you think we'd bother?), while by and large the main complaints are about technical concerns and have little to do with "getting it."
 
Oh, and I also don't think there's much of a problem with scripting either. Maybe I'm wrong but I've always attributed "scripted" goals to adjustments either I or the CPU makes. For instance, I'm sure everyone notices how drastically the CPU will change its formations at the end of a match when trailing?

I'm not saying I'm 100 percent right but I don't fully buy the scripting argument.
 
Firstly I dont hide behind anything, secondly, trust me I 'get it', thirdly, you talk pure waffle.

Shocking those by the way Buzz, no wonder you were pissed off.
 
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WARNING: much nerdy tactical talk in this post

There's been a bit of talk here lately about the cpu's tactical AI. I'm a bit of a tactical nerd when it comes to football (big fan of Jonathan Wilson's writing, ZonalMarking.net etc) and I've been meaning to write a post about this for a while. In some ways PES is brilliant at reflecting how a good tactical set-up can lead to dominance of a game - but there are some important areas in which the AI is very amateurish.

Let's think about formations. In real life (assuming the players are of roughly equal ability), certain formations will usually beat other formations. For instance, 3-5-2 will beat 4-4-2, but 4-2-3-1 will beat 3-5-2. This is because, in each case, the "winning" formation allows the team to outnumber their opponents in important areas of the pitch. In a 3-5-2 up against a 4-4-2, the central defenders outnumber the strikers (leaving a free man at the back), and obviously there are more men in midfield. This effectively leads to two free men, who can move up or back with the play to increase the advantage. So the 3-5-2 is very hard to break down in defence, and provides more options going forward. But when you play 3-5-2 against 4-2-3-1, the three-man defence is a waste of manpower because you end up with three men marking one striker (allowing the other side more time in midfield) - but it can still be overwhelmed because the three attackers behind the striker can move up together knowing there are two men behind them to mop up. To deal with the wide attackers, the side playing 3-5-2 has to bring its wing-backs back, which leaves them vulnerable to being doubled up by overlapping full backs. And so on and so on.

Aaaaaanyway. The point is, PES reflects this very well. If I'm playing a dangerous team, I'll set up in a way designed to counter them, and I can dominate the game in a very realistic way. This was unthinkable in pretty much all previous football games - you might have dominated the game, but (even in PES5) it wouldn't necessarily have been a direct reflection of your tactics. Now, with more sophisticated management options, you can make those formations work properly. You can look at the play and actually see WHY you're bossing the game.

Problem is, the AI can't counter this. It simply doesn't understand tactics beyond the level of a nine-year-old kid ("bring on two more strikers and we'll score more goals!"). For example: I'm in my second season in the French league, and while last year most of the teams played 4-3-3, this year it seems fashionable to play 4-1-4-1. Great - formations do go in and out of fashion, and it's brilliant that this happens in the game.

So, when I face a 4-1-4-1, I'll sometimes change my set up so that I have two men playing in the hole, to bamboozle their one holding midfielder. Very simple plan. So, let's say this works and I boss the possession and score just before half time. In the second half the cpu needs a goal, and somehow has to win back the midfield, so what does it do? Almost every single time it will take off the one holding midfielder and bring on another striker. Then, when it doesn't score, it'll bring off one of the four attacking midfielders for yet another striker (so there are even fewer men in midfield to drop back). I end up passing the ball casually between my two attacking midfielders, holding possession in an almost completely empty area of the pitch, and rather than being under the cosh for the last 20 minutes, I have 80% possession and I'm totally untroubled.

It's starting to frustrate me now - on Top Player, I end up cruising lots of my games just because of the AI's suicidal tactics. That's maybe OK when I'm up against some lowly French team, but it happened in the CL against Bayern Munich - as if a tactical boffin like Louis Van Gaal would play with no holding midfielders for 35 minutes in the Champions League. I'm not expecting the AI to be so amazing that it can out-think a human - nowhere near - but considering there were half-decent chess games on the ZX81 (cpu power: 1k) back in the early 80s, surely we should expect the tactical AI to have some idea of how to counter basic formations, rather than just chucking on millions of attackers and hoping for the best.

Anyway, it's a blessing and a curse. Konami have given us this wonderful freedom, but it's actually unbalanced the game because they've made it too easy to score tactical victories over the computer. Like I say, this isn't usually a huge problem, but this AI thing of playing 4-1-4-1 and then when you don't have much possession, switching to 4-0-3-3 - it's insane. Seems like such a little thing, but...
 
mfmaxpower said:
the mechanics of the game currently make some things easier than they should be relative to real world difficulty levels. It makes me wonder who is the "armchair" footballer here if you think 30-yard through passes or acrobatic volleys or linking four tricks together in one move is as easy as Konami makes it.
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I totally agree with this and it is one thing that I am starting to find very annoying. For a game that many like to call a sim it has some ridiculous moments, I seen someone online hit a 20 - 30 yard back heel pass that went exactly to the targets feet!

mfmaxpower said:
And if the defense of the (imo) overly assisted through passing is Konami holding true to its ideology, does not including a manual passing modifier completely contradict said ideology? Under your line of thinking, wouldn't it basically be a cheat button? Are player attributes no longer important when using the manual pass? Is player individualism thrown out the door as soon as I press L2? There is a difference between CPU assistance and player attributes, is there not?
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I am certain that the stats are still used when using manual passes and it ruins the system IMO. I have used manual to pass to someone 10 yards away using the appropriate amount of power, it decided to send my pass 30 odd yards to a player further up the pitch. I guess the direction of the stick was very close to the player further away and it decided to "help" me get the ball to him. Its things like this that I see quite regulary that have taken away alot of the enjoyment I used to get from the game.

mfmaxpower said:
Furthermore, relying on CPU assistance to express player individualism is a method that most other sports games have evolved beyond with this current gen, and Konami's continued reliance on assistance has less to do with ideology and more to do with aging components of its gameplay engine(s). Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe you've said that PES is the only game you play? If so then maybe that's why you struggle to see how far behind in some areas PES is. For example, PES's ball physics might be the worst of any sports title I've played in recent years.
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The only sports game I play is PES so can you please say how the other games are giving each player an individual feel without using AI assistance.
Maybe handicapping the lesser players instead of assisting the better ones would be a good system, that way to be really good at the game would take more skill than at present.

I played the game for a few hours last night after taking a long break from it and came away thinking that PES has just the one foot in this generation.
Graphically it is up to par and I like that you have alot of control over your team as a whole with the gameplan settings, although I do feel it takes away some of the flexiblilty of the old individual attack/defence settings. Everything else I feel could of been done last gen.
Its time for innovation. I dont see the need for a close control button and a sprint button, in 3rd person games the stick is sensitive to how far it is being moved and you can walk, jog or run with it alone. I would like to see this in PES as it would give a greater range of speeds and more control over your player. And now that there are 2 free buttons put them to use. How about a first touch button, the closer the press to the time the ball hits your foot the greater the control. No stick movement and a perfectly timed button press would kill the ball Berbatov style, a bad timing of the press would have the ball bounce. A small stick movement and a good press allows you to take the ball down and be on your way with the ball under close control, a poorly timed press and a small stick movement and the ball gets away from you and you need to adjust your speed to catch it. With this system you could knock the ball on better with the first touch to get it out your feet quicker than you can at the moment and with more control over the outcome.
Maybe they could use the other free button R2 for passing as it has a greater degree of sensitivity than the face buttons. This would add more precision to the passing which it needs IMO, You could also hit a longer pass quicker just by pressing it down further. Im not soo keen on having to hold down a button for ages to hit a long pass it doesnt seem realistic to me. Just a few thoughts, none given much time but I think its time to add things to the game. They did put in a nice defensive mechanic this year but then negated it with the pressure/auto tackle buttons.
 
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I picked this up again on preowned and applied the second patch. I must say ive never played a football game as long in one go on single player since pes 08 and the PES before that..It is a great game and what it lacks compared to fifa e.g fewer animations, shittier commentaty, kits it more than makes up for in areas of gameplay. No more rushing people and just alking into them for takling etc. For me the 2nd patch has made a huge difference

couple of questions

im going to apply an option file tomorrow (non modded xbox) is there any with chants or is that not possible on a non modded exbox..atmosphere is a bit drab

that saying i think pes will wipe the floor with FIFA next year at this current rate of improvement
 
Jimmy G-Force said:
Firstly I dont hide behind anything, secondly, trust me I 'get it', thirdly, you talk pure waffle.
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He hasn't talked waffle at all. PES may aim to represent a hell of a lot of aspects of football but that doesn't mean it gets them unquestionably right.

You don't half piss me off sometimes. I thought you said you loved intelligent debate and discussion - why toss around this misguided "I've been playing football for 20 years so I know what I'm talking about" BS? It's embarrassing.

As for your offside post - I thought that's what we all agreed Konami were intending to replicate. The problem was that they weren't doing a good enough job of it for the reasons we mentioned, particularly when placed in the same game as the current pressuring, passing, stamina and fullback awareness systems.
 
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I have not had a lag free game online since the patch, anyone else?
Quite honestly this is the worst online experience I have had in about 10 years of online gaming. It doesnt even feel like the same game online, its crap.

Also when I try to copy over an OF from the USB it will copy a file upto about 99% then just stop. When I pull the USB stick out it will sometimes say copy complete but mostly says an error has occurred. Does anyone know whats up? I can copy over everything else expect PES data. I have tried different OFs and all have the same problem.
 
Ern Dog said:
I have not had a lag free game online since the patch, anyone else?
Quite honestly this is the worst online experience I have had in about 10 years of online gaming. It doesnt even feel like the same game online, its crap.

Also when I try to copy over an OF from the USB it will copy a file upto about 99% then just stop. When I pull the USB stick out it will sometimes say copy complete but mostly says an error has occurred. Does anyone know whats up? I can copy over everything else expect PES data. I have tried different OFs and all have the same problem.
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Are you sure it's nothing to do with your connection at your end? I was having lag trouble a new router last month, one of my much more clever friends helped me port forward to the ps3, I've had about half a dozen max laggy games in the last month since.

Also, with the option file, I had the same problem on the ps3. It takes a while for all the files to load up on the stick if that makes sense, it was doing this to me. Then I put the stick in, loaded it up on the ps3 menu, waited around 5 mins or so, all the image previews then loaded, and it all worked fine.
 
Random online is a hit or miss. I'll have a game playing like the offline game at times, then I'll have a string of games where it's just unplayable.
 
sir_poc said:
Are you sure it's nothing to do with your connection at your end? I was having lag trouble a new router last month, one of my much more clever friends helped me port forward to the ps3, I've had about half a dozen max laggy games in the last month since.

Also, with the option file, I had the same problem on the ps3. It takes a while for all the files to load up on the stick if that makes sense, it was doing this to me. Then I put the stick in, loaded it up on the ps3 menu, waited around 5 mins or so, all the image previews then loaded, and it all worked fine.
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No it aint my connection mate, I have done all that port forwarding stuff and have no problems at all with other games. Before the patch I had some lag free games and some really laggy ones, but most had a very little amount of lag and were very playable. Now nearly all games have soo much lag that there are poor response times and I am pretty sure that things like AI & player switching are worse because of it. The way some of my team mates act sometimes is like they are reacting to something other than what is happening infront of them. Its a shame as I would really enjoy MLO if it were not for this.

Thanks for the USB tip I will give it a try.
 
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