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Manchester United Thread

amineken22 said:
A very good article from the times about United since the Glazers took over:
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Nice. For me just highlights - if not for the Glazers we'd likely still be at the very top, as we could have spent like Madrid and City. Depressing that's what it comes down to though.

Hats off to the f*cking leeches, they did very well out of the arrangement.
 
beachryan said:
So no Carrick for rest of season. Fascinating how one player is so crucial - we basically win almsot every game with him playing, and lose when he's not.

Not good for Palace.

Squeaky bum time as always. We never make it easy.

At least Carrick's importance is acknowledged by LVG. Better than Fergie managed for 6 years. Who knows, maybe this off season we'll sign a central midfielder!!!
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Sneijder to the rescue next season? :BOP:

Very happy about the DePay signing btw. The expectations placed on him by the media and fans alike though seem a bit over the top but he appears to have a CR7 like level of confidence and determination so hopefully that will help him deliver. At least the early signing solves an issue LVG highlighted before : he ll have him available for all of pre season to get into the swing of things.
 
I know we weren't good today but fkin hell can we catch a break with injuries? (Shaw and Rooney today). And please get rid of Evans for a proper defender in the summer. Yes I know it was his first game back since the suspension but the amount of errors he makes every single time is infuriating. /rant over

Happy with the 3 pts.. But it was ugly.
 
How many points has Fellaini won Utd this season? I get the impression its quiet a few, curious if that is actually the case.
 
Grinding out away wins is always good, but that penalty was a scandal wasn't it? It was a shame because I think Palace are a brave side and they didn't deserve to lose. On the contrary, they could have won it if it wasn't for that brilliant save by De Gea, that was outstanding.
 
Rentboy said:
Grinding out away wins is always good, but that penalty was a scandal wasn't it? It was a shame because I think Palace are a brave side and they didn't deserve to lose. On the contrary, they could have won it if it wasn't for that brilliant save by De Gea, that was outstanding.
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I agree Palace didn't deserve to lose but I fail to see what was scandalous about that penalty call. It's one of those the ref can go either way type calls but it clearly hit his arm, and in the replay it is quite obvious to me it is done intentionally.
Eye of the beholder I guess.

And Tiktik: good question. It does seem like he bailed us out a few times this season.
 
Thought it was definitely a pen. The angle from behidn is most conclusive, his whole arm shakes as hit his bicep? Didn't see the 'scandal' at all - other than anytime a pen is awarded to us it's 'questionable' and a 'talking point'.

Top 4 secured. Top of the injury league. Limping to this finish.

Odd season.
 
Just hope now we dont get a dodgy draw in qualifying. Can't do another season without europe.
 
Yeah but I'd like to think with CL secure the gateway for the signings we need to make should mean were a different proposition for teams next year.

heres hoping anyway. 4th was the lowest level of acceptance this season and we've hit that 'just'. must challenge on all fronts next year, no excuses.
 
Still think the squad needs a substantial amount of work, unfortunately. I'd like to say that buying established, expensive talent isn't necessary, but no team in Europe has managed to get to the very top level without serious spending. If we want to 'compete' with Madrid, Barca, Bayern etc I can't see any way aside from buying elite players like they do. Which is sad, but that's what football is.

So with that caveat, muppetry o'clock! We will definitely sign:

A RB - Seems to be Clyne who I'm not sold on, and would prefer a more 'potential' player from outside England. Clyne is okay, but would he get into any of the top 4? Not sure.

A DMF/Carrick - This needs sorting, and has done since Scholes retired. Blind has shown he's not up to it and while I'm sure he'll improve over time, this needs rectifying 5 years ago. I'd love to see Kondogbia, and Monaco owe us a favor after we paid for that Falcao imposter all season. That type of player though.

A striker - Imagine if 18 months ago you'd have Falcao, Rooney and RVP vying for one spot and be able to say they're all not good enough? Thus is football. RVP and Falcao are done for me, but I'd keep Robin if he's willing to accept more of a bench role and take a pay cut. The biggest barrier to us being good at this whole football thing is having a striker with good movement and energy imo, and some ability to hold the ball up. Would negate the need for Fellaini, and enable us to have 3 ball playing footballers on the pitch doing that passing thing.

Think that's what we need. Lots of outgoings too, am sure that Nani, Hernandez, Rafael, Cleverley, Evans and maybe Di Maria will be off this summer.

Perhaps my criticism of LVG is a bit overstated given the number of players he's moved on and the ridiculous injuries we've had all year. Still, jobs just getting started. No excuses about preseason or not having 'his' players next year. I expect some good football!
 
Your post raises some interesting insights, beachryan. I don't entirely agree with it, and of course we could debate what "serious spending" means nowadays.
But if you look at Bayern, they got to that succession of CL finals (2010, 2012 and 2013) with players who came through their youth ranks, such as Lahm, Thomas Müller, Schweinsteiger, Toni Kroos, etc. And there were some players who joined at a very young age who really developed at Bayern, such as Alaba, who was not known at all before.
They blended these bits of "homemade" talent with the likes of Ribery and Robben to create a powerful squad.

Now the more pressing problem is about the immediacy and/or short-termism. In Germany they could afford to let those players blossom into what they are now, maybe because of the superiority of Bayern in Bundesliga, since less competition meant the whole thing was less menacing for their CL status.

Barcelona as well, to an extent, was able to let their homemade talents blossom together with big names, not only because they got some world beaters in there (Messi, Iniesta, Xavi) and other pretty good ones (Pique, Pedro, Busquets); but because they are one of 2 giants in that country and they will never have their position threatened.
Hell, I've been around long enough to have seen Xavi and Schweinsteiger as youngsters.

In England though, there's more pressure for short-term results especially with Chelsea and Man City doing what they did. I think the problem you mentioned (not being able to compete without serious spending) is more of a problem in England. And partly, yes, because of the times we live in. It's getting worse and worse when we see Gareth Bale and Neymar going for fees between 85 and 100m euros.

Of course Barcelona and Bayern for example spent lots of money in the last 15 years, but they maintained the culture of homegrown players somehow, combined with that. In England, this is not working. Your post kind of highlights that. The current crop of youngsters there (Januzaj, Jones, McNair, Blackett, Wilson) probably wouldn't cut it in the Premiership nowadays.

I have no idea how Arsene Wenger could retain top 4 during the lean years of paying stadium debt while tied to long-term contracts that were dwarfed next to the other big clubs.

Not to take anything away from Alex Ferguson (why would I at this point?) I really don't think he would have done today what he did in the 90s. Giggs, Beckham, Scholes, Yorke and Co. were very special players but I don't know if they would have come through your ranks the same way if it were today, in a league that's flooded with players at their peak earning up to 300k a week.

I think this problem is more of an issue in England really. I think European teams like Bayern could reach the very top in a reasonable way, without breaking the bank so to speak.

PS: not to harp on too long on that penalty thing, but I had the impression that Scott Dann hit it with his shoulder (intentionally, yes). It was very awkward how he opened up his arm while doing so, which led the ref to make the call on "gut feeling" as it's been said.
But in the bigger picture, I think that decision stems from the small club/big club dynamics that play a part in such debatable decisions. Mind you that I'm not saying this to wind up Man United fans. Let's take United out of the equation and leave Palace on the spotlight: I think the ref might have still given the penalty in favour of another team because it was against Crystal Palace. It is so much easier to make such a big call against Palace than it is against, say, Chelsea.
When Cahil handled the ball inside his area at the Emirates, the ref had a clear view. Why didn't he call it? Why have some goodwill for some clubs, and not for others. The double standards that really piss me off.

I've grown to take a liking for Palace since a mate took me to Selhurst Park once when they were still in the Championship. It breaks my heart to watch the soft penalties given against them (the Hazard dive in particular). I'm just glad they're safe. But if the contrary happened, I don't think the refs would have given those penalties to them against big clubs.
 
@ Rentboy - I'll skip the penalty incident as I disagree on that one, but don't think it's worth discussing. Since Fergie left we've only had 5 penalties I believe in 2 seasons, so I'm totally with you on him having an influence back when we were a big club. ;)

To the 'how to be successful' post - you're definitely on to something with stability and risk taking. As you noted, basically Bayern are guaranteed to finish in the top 2 in Germany so can take a risk on certain players (Alaba is a great example) but it's also worth noting they've purchased very good players from the number 2 team consistently - which is the whole weaken your enemy while you strengthen philosphy. Also, Neuer, Lewandowski, Robben, Ribery, Alcantara, Martinez etc are crucial to the team and all bought in as 'star' signings.

Barca had a bit of a 'class of 92' thing going but that is faded now imo. They've bought Neymar, Suarez and Rakitic in the passed 2 seasons, and tbh that's going to make any team pretty unbelievable.

That leaves Chelsea, PSG, City and Madrid - all of whom have been able to basically buy 'peak' players at huge expense. Juve is the outlier, but again, have no domestic competition so can develop a bit. But they've done really well in the CL finally this year.

Anyway, in England it's fascinating - the two teams with the fewest 'homegrown' players to feature this season are Chelsea and City. And lo and behold, they'll finish top 2. I found it hilarious how much praise Jose was getting from pundits on Sunday when he gave a start to Loftus-Cheek. That's like praising an alcoholic for going a day without a beer!

I just fear the only 'answer' to winning the premier league is to spend and spend big. United have the highest wage bill in the league this year - though I doubt that'll happen next year when we lose a bunch of players and Falcao - and even that didn't manage. City needs a healthy amount of investment, and Chelsea basically didn't have injuries to derail them this year - can't rely on that.

Arsenal are in a weird place. Every season they have a period of being the best team in the country, but never manage to do it for 38 matches. There are moments when they play the best football, but typically over winter they have a crap period. I'd love to think they can win the league with their squad - and their first XI on its day is amazing - but I'm not sure. And where does Wenger take them from here?

Final point on rambling things - strikers are going to be in hot demand this summer. Chelsea need a Costa backup/partner. United desperately need a young starter. Liverpool need one even more. City need an Aguero backup too.

And there isn't really a 'top' choice out there that I see.
 
I only brought all of this up when I reflected upon your statement about "no team in Europe..." which really applies to England more than anywhere else.

Your mention of the 2nd team in Germany (Dortmund) brings us to another great example of how to run things in a football club. They won the Bundesliga 2 consecutive years (one of them being a double) and got to the 2013 CL final. Had they won that, we would have no doubt an example of a team that got to the very top by doing everything in touch with reality and in a sensible way.

But unfortunately, the way Bayern tapped their best talent eventually took its toll. Maybe losing Lewandowski was even worse than Goetze, because their performance this season was shocking. With no CL footie and no Klopp next season, we don't know where they go from here.
But while it lasted, it was fascinating to watch and sort of gave us some hope.

While Chelsea has one of the best youth setups and won stuff at U21 (or U19) level, everyone asks themselves what's the point. Well, I don't live in England anymore to see the reaction pundits had to Mourinho using one youngster for the first time at this stage, but I'm sure they loved it. They love everything he does, don't they? I don't know how he does it really but he gets away with anything.

Finally, you may be right about the striker thing and I think there will be a bidding war for Lyonnais' Lacazette. Benteke hitting such a form at the end of this season will be a hot commodity too. So will QPR's Charlie Austin, although I predict a mid-table team getting him, such as Villa replacing Benteke. Still, I think it takes some doing to score 19 goals for a team like QPR, playing alongside Zamora :LOL:

Some other strikers will move from the top dogs. I thought Chelsea were fine with Drog and especially Remy as backups to Costa. And City just signed Wilfred Bony who barelly played yet. Still I wouldn't be surprised if they got into all the madness for strikers so the likes of Dzeko and Remy might become available.

Of all the teams in the top 4, I think United indeed needs strikers the most especially if you insist in playing Rooney as a CMF. RVP is crocked and you knew he had maybe 2 seasons in him when he signed, and Falcao won't stay.
BTW, is Depay an out-and-out striker?
 
I think Utd could do with a pacey striker to play just ahead of Rooney but Arsenal need a top striker. Period. Seems Cavani is most likely to be on the move of all the notable strikers in europe. Lacazette too.

I don't think we need another striker even tho we've offered Dzeko/Jovetic for Pogba. An AM who can add cover there eg. Bale/Sterling/Firmino, would be better. If we do sign another I'd imagine it'd be a young cheap player like Ings, not a big money striker.
 
Godotelli said:
I think Utd could do with a pacey striker to play just ahead of Rooney but Arsenal need a top striker. Period. Seems Cavani is most likely to be on the move of all the notable strikers in europe. Lacazette too.

I don't think we need another striker even tho we've offered Dzeko/Jovetic for Pogba. An AM who can add cover there eg. Bale/Sterling/Firmino, would be better. If we do sign another I'd imagine it'd be a young cheap player like Ings, not a big money striker.
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But you lot are a bit rubbish anytime Sergio is hurt - and he does seem to miss at least 10 matches a season doesn't he?

Having both Bony and Dzeko feels redundant, and neither can do what Aguero does.

Other risk is that Madrid start sniffing around Aguero, but think they'll go for De Gea + AN Other this summer, unless they offload Bale for a huge loss.
 
I think Aguero might be over his injuries. He hasn't had a muscle injury for over a year now. His knee injury could have happened to anyone
(touch wood anyway :PRAY:)
I think signing another top striker would be a waste because thankfully it seems Pellegrini has finally cottoned on that the way forward is 433. CM and AM is much more pressing

Mansour gave Madrid 300m so hopefully a 'AguerNO!' agreement was part of that!
 
beachryan said:
Still think the squad needs a substantial amount of work, unfortunately. I'd like to say that buying established, expensive talent isn't necessary, but no team in Europe has managed to get to the very top level without serious spending. If we want to 'compete' with Madrid, Barca, Bayern etc I can't see any way aside from buying elite players like they do. Which is sad, but that's what football is.

So with that caveat, muppetry o'clock! We will definitely sign:

A RB - Seems to be Clyne who I'm not sold on, and would prefer a more 'potential' player from outside England. Clyne is okay, but would he get into any of the top 4? Not sure.

A DMF/Carrick - This needs sorting, and has done since Scholes retired. Blind has shown he's not up to it and while I'm sure he'll improve over time, this needs rectifying 5 years ago. I'd love to see Kondogbia, and Monaco owe us a favor after we paid for that Falcao imposter all season. That type of player though.

A striker - Imagine if 18 months ago you'd have Falcao, Rooney and RVP vying for one spot and be able to say they're all not good enough? Thus is football. RVP and Falcao are done for me, but I'd keep Robin if he's willing to accept more of a bench role and take a pay cut. The biggest barrier to us being good at this whole football thing is having a striker with good movement and energy imo, and some ability to hold the ball up. Would negate the need for Fellaini, and enable us to have 3 ball playing footballers on the pitch doing that passing thing.

Think that's what we need. Lots of outgoings too, am sure that Nani, Hernandez, Rafael, Cleverley, Evans and maybe Di Maria will be off this summer.

Perhaps my criticism of LVG is a bit overstated given the number of players he's moved on and the ridiculous injuries we've had all year. Still, jobs just getting started. No excuses about preseason or not having 'his' players next year. I expect some good football!
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I agree with you on not being sure about Clyne. Yes, he was very good against us for Palace a few years ago, but on recent England duty he was bad. Couldn't place a decent short pass at all.
I wonder if Janko will get a go during pre season, although I think he's converted to a winger? Maybe Janmaat from Newcastle - can't see him costing much esp if they go down.

Blind looked really good in the holding role when he first joined, but dropped off a bit when teams starting marking him a bit more. It'd be good to see him back to that level next season. Otherwise, Pirlo is out of contract, let's have him for a year or 2 (I know he's older than Carrick, but play along)- Our central midfield can't get any slower anyway!

I'm still in the Falcao fan club, and imo our wingers let him down big time. It's no use running into space when any of the wingers are trying to beat their man more than once, instead of putting in an early cross. The one time Young did it on Saturday led to Fellaini's goal.
If he and/or RVP go, we definitely need a bit of pace up front - can we nick Aubameyang before Liverpool's rumoured interest again please?(and he's able to cover a few positions to help with the "philosophy")

Think our biggest priority is to make sure we have decent footballing centre halves (and one's who aren't fragile!). Smalling & Rojo aren't bad with distribution, Jones could definitely improve, & Evans is a big no-no...

What would be your ideal line up next season?
 
Perfect world? If injuries weren't a thing? Probably

---------------DDG-----------------
--A RB--Jones---Smalling----Shaw---
-------------Carrick---------------
--------Hererra---Di Maria---------
---Mata--------------------Depay---
--------------Rooney---------------

But, that's a lot of hope on form and fitness. I wonder if Di Maria's form of last season was the exception - never rated him before that as much more than a divey, tricky winger with little end product. Hard to see how he turns things around.

Realistically, Jones, Carrick and Shaw would be injured in training, so all of sudden we're screwed. I'd love Kondogbia and, as you said, a pacey striker though I've always found Aubameyang seriously underwhelming. Don't know the answer tbh, but I'm sure LVG has something planned.
 
That sides just too unbalanced, more chance of Rooney playing where Di Maria is and a new CF.

Di Maria will be played as a winger, remember we had so few games this year which meant as a squad we could barely use, was the same team. the wingers will be rotated next year I'd assume with Di Maria, Depay, Young and if we sell Nani or loan Januzaj then we'd be short in that department I'd say he'd get a fair amount of game time and form will dictate who starts more often.
 
As an aside, our U21 just beat City 4-0, which means we can still win the U21 league (above the much written about Chelsea and City teams).

More impressively, almost 18,000 fans showed up for an U21 match! That's awesome stuff.
 
Mourinho could learn a thing or 2 about bus parking from your U21 manager

And Utd should walk that league, I don't think Chelsea or City have been using quite so many senior players in their U21 team as Utd.
 
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Godotelli said:
Mourinho could learn a thing or 2 about bus parking from your U21 manager

And Utd should walk that league, I don't think Chelsea or City have been using quite so many senior players in their U21 team as Utd.
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We won 4-0. Bus parking?

Valdes is the only senior player who has featured more than 3 times for the U21s this season.

Unless you mean players like Blackett, Wilson, McNair and Janujaz who have played for the first team. But they'll all still 'youth' players imo.
 
Yep, watched the game, weird scoreline really. City dominated but found it difficult to break through

Worth noting that our U21 side is full of 17/18 yr olds. Utd's is full of 20/21 yr olds (and 1 22 yr old).
Average age of the teams tonight was 20 to 18. It started to show in the last 15 mins or so
 
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Should be an interesting summer, things starting to shape up. Big Ed is waving it around as he is wont to do.

In a perfect world, this is what I would like to happen:
- PSG do another sensible transfer like David Luiz, and we recoup most/all of the fee we paid for Di Maria, who can be happy again
- We use that dosh to free poor Gareth Bale from the horrors of Madrid, thus improving not only our forward line, but our karma too
- We let this Falcao impostor return to whatever he was doing before last year
- We keep big Dave, for one more year, by offering not only weekly bags of cash but also an equal number of Mata hugs
- We sign a defender who can play more than 3 matches in a row without breaking
- We're able to sell Hernandez, Evans, Henriquez, Rafael, Lindegaard, Lingard for actual currency
- We buy something resembling an actual RB
- We buy something resembling an actual DMF. I vote Kondogbia. A man can dream.

That would leave us:
GK: Valdes, De Gea, Johnstone (who is awesome btw)
RB: Someone, Valencia
CB: Rojo, Smalling, Jones, Hummels(?), McNair/Thorpe
LB: Shaw, Blackett
CMF: Carrick (for 10 matches a year), Kondogbia, Herrera, Fellaini, Perreira, Rothwell
AMF: Mata, Fellaini, Janujaz
Wings: Memphis, Bale, Nani
CF: Rooney, RVP, Wilson

So a potential 1st XI of:
-----------------Dave------------------
--a RB----Smalling---Hummels---Shaw----
--------------Kondogbia---------------
---------Herrera------Mata------------
-----Bale-------------------Memphis---
----------------Rooney----------------

Now we're talking.

/and thus endeth the muppetry.
 
Man utd planning to buy Kane for 45 million. I wonder when they are going to stop spending money.
 
How much game time is Javi Martinez getting at Bayern these days? Rarely seen him figure lately. Would be an ideal signing.
 
Mehtab said:
Man utd planning to buy Kane for 45 million. I wonder when they are going to stop spending money.
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Wait, whoa, hang on. Is that a Chelsea fan talking about money?

We could buy Kane, Bale AND Ronaldo and still not have spent as much as Abramovich has since he took over.

Sigh.

Anyway, Kane: DO NOT WANT YET. I think he's going to be a one season wonder. That must be his agent, no one at United is that stupid. He's not that marketable, he's completely unproven over a 6 month spell and having watched him 40 odd times this season I still have no idea what he is genuinely 'great' at. Not all that fast, no great touch, finishing is hit or miss, not great at holding it up. He's reasonable at everything which is awesome for a player at his age, but I wouldn't risk a fee of any kind until he's had one more year.
 
beachryan said:
Wait, whoa, hang on. Is that a Chelsea fan talking about money?

We could buy Kane, Bale AND Ronaldo and still not have spent as much as Abramovich has since he took over.

Sigh.

Anyway, Kane: DO NOT WANT YET. I think he's going to be a one season wonder. That must be his agent, no one at United is that stupid. He's not that marketable, he's completely unproven over a 6 month spell and having watched him 40 odd times this season I still have no idea what he is genuinely 'great' at. Not all that fast, no great touch, finishing is hit or miss, not great at holding it up. He's reasonable at everything which is awesome for a player at his age, but I wouldn't risk a fee of any kind until he's had one more year.
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Talking about Chelsea, we had spent few and earned more than United did this 2 years. :)
 
Yea, I wouldn't sign Kane for that kind of money. Too big a risk when he could turn into another Darren Bent.
It's not as if the price would be higher if he had another good season anyway.
 
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