Let's FIFA 11/12/13: Making the perfect football game.

I'd like it if EA made diving headers possible. I've played 300 games with my VP and I have 0 diving headers. In 20 or so of those games all I was doing was trying to set them up.

I don't want some super VP, I just want to give the guy some agility to have some fun dribbling around. Why agility is tied to diving headers I don't know. But doing diving headers seems impossible.

Fix that.
 
@ Gab,

I think a more intuative option would be to hold forward or backwards while charging the power bar to determine height. They had it in games years ago and it worked fine.
 
TikTikTikTikTik said:
@ Gab,

I think a more intuative option would be to hold forward or backwards while charging the power bar to determine height. They had it in games years ago and it worked fine.
Click to expand...

Yeah maybe. Problem is when you don't charge, only press quickly, it's too easy for the game to think he should move the player around if you press back to quickly. I have had this happen to me sometimes in their NHL game where you aim like this. Even if it happens rarely it's still annoying.

Kind of like currently in FIFA when you run towards the ball to do a header back where you came from, it's really hard because you have to time the flick of the stick perfectly. Otherwise you head it in the direction you're running, or the player stops going towards the ball if you flicked to early.

Anyone here that has played Football Kingdom (with a fresh memory) that think their system isn't working well?
 
Gab_ said:
Yeah maybe. Problem is when you don't charge, only press quickly, it's too easy for the game to think he should move the player around if you press back to quickly. I have had this happen to me sometimes in their NHL game where you aim like this. Even if it happens rarely it's still annoying.
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This.

I've thought about whether pressing back would be a good idea - I think the answer is "not with only one stick". The dream would be being able to use a twin stick+shoulder buttons system and press down+left/right to shoot high or up+left/right to shoot low etc. I don't think that's really feasible though.

Would be great if there were more football games still trying this sort of thing though, even if they were arcadey but trying new ideas. A lot of good gameplay ideas came from football titles that have died away. Pure Football is a godawful waste in this respect.
 
Yeah it could be akward, depends on the length of animation.

Thinking about the shooting again;
Maybe they should "remove" the power = height setting and just make it height. A player will try to shoot as hard and accurate as possible most of the time anyway with the modifyer being used with other shots (side of the foot (finesse), chip and maybe incorporate the "drive" shot (I can't remember what it's called but you have 3 shot types during a freekick/penalty (normal, finesse and driven) as a modifyer to have extra power but reduced accuracy.

I think the problem at the moment is people associating the bar to power and then getting mixed up with the height. You could argue that it's already the case as it is, but maybe a tweak by EA can make a 1/3 shot be just as powerfull with less height.

So between 0 and 25% it's a low shot/25%-50% is a mid level shot/50%-75% is a high shot and anything above is higher then the goal (but would be needed for a 30-40yard effort (or any shot that needs dip because of the distance)). Power is controlled by the modifyers, something already present but maybe not clearly enough defined from the "powerbar".

So finesse is a sidefoot effort with height being determined by how long you load (same as now) = more accuracy but less power, no modifyer = normal power and accuracy, drive = more power less accuracy, chips would also become decent again with the possiblity to only dink the goalie instead of the rugby shot that it is now.
Height is always determined by the length of the powerbar, which now becomes a heightbar. All shots are manipulated by stats, speed of playermovement and pressure.

Isn't this inline with the control system but with a few tweaks to give far more control and defined shot types to gamers? I would also think it would add to the tactical part of the game, knowing a player has crap accuracy but good power means its worth a try to have a driven shot as you might get lucky (Mascherano) or a player like Beni Noon who has no shot power (or atleast never uses it, or shoots general) but has high accuracy would mean a finesse effort is more worth while.
 
Uuh, skip the above. Just realised that you would have two different systems when considering the passing aswell which does work based on power.

So.....

You would end up with a range for the optimum for power in the power bar (offcourse hidden as with passing+). Say the 50% it is now with less than 50% power giving more accuracy and more than 50% power less accuracy. And have a low shot and high shot modifyer with the situation/ placement/stats of the player determining which type of shot it is (sidefoot, normal, etc). I would change the "finesse" shot to "high" range and use the "driven" modifyer for the low shot.

Principle is the same I guess, which is having height and power being determined by different controls.
 
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I hear there's some kind of new 'driven/bouncing lob' in FIFA 11. Not sure how it works, but in the meantime this is what I'd like to see with Lob passes.

I think there should be two types of lob pass. One would be activated as normal (holding Circle, or whatever button you have in your control scheme) and the other would be selected by holding the finesse button with it (e.g. Circle + RB) like a sidefoot shot.

Type A: A pacey, driven lob pass. Flatter trajectory (rarely goes much above head height, depending on the context), greater velocity, no backspin.

Type B: A lofted, backspin lob pass. Arched trajectory, less velocity, lots of backspin.

So you'd have a choice to make about the right type of pass for the right scenario.

Maybe you want to drop the ball softly into space for someone to run onto from deep, in which case you might want a lofted pass that arrives more slowly and has backspin to stop it skipping away off the turf. I'm thinking of Xavi's half-volley assist to Bojan Krkic away at Sevilla, which was floated deftly over the defenders and the bounce held up for Bojan to get there before the keeper.

YouTube - Xavi Pass v Sevilla

Or perhaps you want to switch the ball across the field to a target on the opposite wing, in which case you might fire it in with more urgency before the defence can react; however, it had better be right on the money in terms of accuracy, because if it bounces either side it's just going to skip past your teammate. Just like Huddlestone's pass would not have held up for Bale, had it been six inches to the right.

YouTube - Tom Huddlestone long pass vs Shaktar (2nd leg)

It would also change how you deliver a long ball to a target man. If you are a defender or a goalkeeper looking to find teammate John Carew in the opposition half, you have the option of either a firm pass into his chest to be held up, or you could float one high up in the air for him to go and win with his head.

Since Crossing is basically a lob pass done in the 'crossing zone', this same approach could be taken with crosses. A Type A would be a ball driven across the penalty area at around head height, for a smaller striker darting onto the end of it; Type B would be used for floating one up in the air, for a bigger forward to attack or for someone arriving late at the far post. Again you'd be tailoring your cross for the right situation.

For all I know this might be how it already is in FIFA11 - I hope so.
 
The bouncing lob is much like that, though the distance it covers isn't as far as that!

It only retains the height if you really give it some welly - with less power it won't take off like that and will instead bounce along the ground on the way to the recipient. It's R1 for the bouncing lob modifier.

There isn't a specific control for heavy backspin - there's L2 for higher trajectories but not specifically just for floatier balls that hold up when they bounce, I don't think. Have you used that at all? It can end up being scooped by players with the flair trait, but it does increase the height subtly for other players too. I don't think it's what you're after though.

There was some interesting stuff about new types of pass in the EG article from June 9 but I thought it was all context sensitive.
 
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RB on crosses do high backspin crosses, doesn't it work the same when not crossing? What does RB + Lob button do when you don't use it for a cross?
 
What are your control settings Gab? Are they standard or custom? I'll check the RB crossing out but I thought it was LT for XBoxers.

RB will be bouncing lob.
 
romagnoli said:
What are your control settings Gab? Are they standard or custom? I'll check the RB crossing out but I thought it was LT for XBoxers.

RB will be bouncing lob.
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I'm using the PES control scheme (NA). RB and cross button makes it high and "slow", same on corners and freekicks too I think. Unless I'm mixing up this with PES, but I'm pretty sure it works like this.
 
I may have missed this, but are free kicks getting reworked for FIFA 11? I was pleased with the introduction of quick free kicks in FIFA 10, but more must be done.

Specifically, my problem with free kicks given in the defensive half of the field is that it can be quite difficult to play a short pass to a wide open defender. On free kicks near the goal area, there is an option to play a tapped ball to restart... just implementing this for the entire field would be a huge improvement over the current system.

Many times winning a free kick can leave you very exposed to a quick counter attack... this is something I'd like addressed, as it is very annoying.
 
Gab_ said:
RB on crosses do high backspin crosses, doesn't it work the same when not crossing? What does RB + Lob button do when you don't use it for a cross?
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Strangely enough, I've never tried this. Will have a fiddle tomorrow.
 
I didn't see a noticeable difference with RB. I know LT/L2 gives you what Gab is referring to, which is why I thought there might be a custom control issue.

Third opinions needed!
 
I couldn't see any difference with either RB or LT. Maybe I'm blind or it's something different with Alternate controls on 360. LB+Cross is an early cross, if that helps at all.

I noticed that the Lofted Through Ball has a ton of backspin on it, which maybe already fills the Xavi assist type of pass on second thought. I still think a floatier lob and a driven lob is/would be a good contrast to have, nontheless.
 
romagnoli said:
What are your control settings Gab? Are they standard or custom? I'll check the RB crossing out but I thought it was LT for XBoxers.

RB will be bouncing lob.
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O_o

I didn't think that either RB or LT did anything on crossing.

The cross modifiers are LB, which is an early cross, and multiple taps for a normal (1x), drilled (2x), grounded (3x). If LT has any effect it will be like with shooting in that because it changes the way the player is moving to the slow run the player is more composed.
 
It does make long passes float higher. I'm not that sure if it does the same for crossing tbh though.
 
Yeah sorry guys, just tested it and it doesn't work as I thought it did... not even in PES. On freekicks and corners it is holding back for higher cross.

You SHOULD be able to do it though ;)

On another note, nothing new but I tried out FIFA 08 and looked at the skilled dribbling (LT/RT) in that version and it is pretty similar to what was introduced as a completely new feature in FIFA 10. It doesn't work nearly as good but still.
 
The history of it is that L2+R2 was a sidestep in 08, which EA then
slightly bewilderingly removed from 09. People complained that it was gone, so EA put it back in and upgraded it to skilled dribble.
 
You know what - this game feels really good when in control of the ball. It's what keeps seducing me back again, just when I think that its flaws have irritated me once too often. It just feels too good to bring the ball down, slow-dribble turn, and manual a pass out to the fullback. Although I'm not much of a flashy tricks person, I also think that the way you can combine such a variety of ball skills is a triumph of animation. Shooting could do with some work, but passing and dribbling is generally a pleasure.

We've talked about defending before, secondary pressing etc. The other things that I think FIFA needs to make improvements on is the team-wide stuff.

For starters, team shape. Formation, organisation, positioning... if the World Cup hasn't been a demonstration of rigid organisation, I don't know what would be. In contrast, watch any game of FIFA and it would be a challenge to guess even how many players are in midfield, never mind what formation they should be in. It starts with the defensive line, so hopefully the devs pull through on that one with FIFA11 like they have claimed, but I hope they don't forget the importance of shape to the rest of the team.

The other thing is ebb and flow... by which I don't mean momentum in the stats-boosting/reducing sense, I mean in the intended tempo of the team in possession. It bugs me that it feels like the AI wants to do everything at top speed all of the time. It veritably trips over itself in its rush to do something with the ball. It is too reactionary; blundering headlong toward opponents until it is about to collide and then reacts, rather than intelligently spotting and exploiting space beforehand.

Like any football match pulses, the team in possession should not attack with the same tempo all of the time. Nor do individual players always move at run speed on/off the ball. I don't feel like FIFA does a good job of this at all, contributing to the overall frantic feel of the game. It's not that players can sprint unrealistically quickly (they can't), or that the pitch is too small (it isn't), or that physicality is too dominant (arguable)... it's that defenders and attackers spend 90% of the time moving directly towards each other at run speed.

In FIFA, individual players move and behave much the same whether they have an opponent three yards away, as they do if left all alone in a 30 yard radius of space. In reality, the frenzy of Carlos Tevez desperately trying to wriggle between two defenders into the penalty area, is such a different demeanour to when Cannavaro is waiting patiently with the ball, without pressure, for one of his midfielders to come and collect. I'm not talking about animations, but about decisions, direction and rapidity of movement, intent, and appropriate movement of teammates.

Basically, behaving accordingly to the situation, rather than one template. Knowing when a counter-attack opportunity is on and responding to that, and equally knowing when the time is right to build play slowly from the back (and knowing this as a team, not just the one guy on the ball). Reacting with more haste to protect the ball when closed down, but behaving more relaxed when in acres of space. Those sorts of things.

Bit of a brain dump there.
 
YouTube - FIFA 11 - NEW - ENHANCED AI (HD)

Vid about the CPU AI. It covers changes to make the CPU play possession football and a more player specific risk zone when challenged.

I think that, certainly for 1v1, you should find a lot of that ebb and flow coming from the error and the power bars, as well of course as the improved defensive AI and reduced likelihood of getting a shot away from range. It introduces much more of a peak and trough in the actual speed the ball moves around the pitch. Importantly, that reduced game speed and improved defensive ability also makes things much more about moving the pieces around the board to create that opening - so more of a tactical ebb and flow too.
 
romagnoli said:
I didn't see a noticeable difference with RB. I know LT/L2 gives you what Gab is referring to, which is why I thought there might be a custom control issue.

Third opinions needed!
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L2 is early cross, use this when you are no closer than about 30 yards, RB/R1 is controlled cross. Which when used from a balanced standing position will give a more "straight" cross.

Try it, get just in the box near the by line and hit an R1/RB cross to the far corner of the box.
 
It probably is, I'm sure Aaron or gary said it was L1 as well but for the life of me L1 doesn't work for me. Hmmmm
 
Interesting. Default controls I seem to remember you saying? L2 seems to override the crossing for me (and for some of the posters earlier in the thread). I pressed L2 and tried to cross to the penalty spot; the ball ended up being passed way, way further back.
 
Talking of AI,

How about Dynamic Team AI. Not sure if it's bene mentioned before. For example you are playing the cpu with Bayern and for the first 15min. your attack is mostly directed through Robben. Every 15min (or whatever time schedule) the cpu reviews the ingame stats/movements (which they have with the passes, shots, dribbles, etc) and adjusts the team tactics/formation accordingly. So after 15min you would get a more compact defensive around Robben, maybe doubling the markers when he gets the ball. After 10min you realise and start to switch play to Ribery and after 10min the AI starts to realise and adds extra defense to that side and giving more space back to Robben.

I guess it's a next step to what PES are doing with the custom tactics being placed in timezone's to how your team plays depending on the score. Something FIFA should have aswell imo. What I'm suggesting is another layer deeper that they should be able to keep the system how it is and with small adjustments make the player adjust his pattern of play "on-the-fly".

Would need to be balanced so you can't just switch play every 10min and have loads of space but it's something worthwhile to create different flows to matches and make the AI feel more alive as they are now actively reacting to what you do instead of just going through the motions, which it now feels like.

Also they should change the whole defense/attack mentality imo, it just feels a bit lame with it having little effect imo, players move a few meters. Maybe link it to 4 or 5 custom formations linked to custom tactics.

So ultra defensive could be a 4-5-1 formation with everyone guarding the area (ala Inter) and one striker trying to get on the end of balls.
Defensive could be a 4-2-3-1 formation set to counter attack
Attack could be 4-1-3-2 based on possesion football
Ultra attack could be 3-3-4 based on wingplay.

Instead of fixed settings the mentality is linked to a combination of tactics and formations that you set yourself.
 
Tik, that has to be the ultimate aim for the AI to read the game and adjust, maybe with the top clubs on a 15 min time slot and able to chop and change with lesser clubs with longer slots and less able to...
 
But that shouldn't be too hard should it? It's not an especially "clever" system imo. Maybe that's my total lack of AI knowledge, but it would seem not much more then a calculation and risk/chance assesment module linked to play patterns. With the custom tactics and formations together with the manmarking/pressure/etc options and behind-the-scenes stats you would think it would be something they could build on what's already in the game.

Must of been in my mind, but I always felt in the ps2 PES days that if I continually used a certain winger or play pattern the AI would "Step Up" and actively block those patterns. Could also have been me just drawing their team over to one side more and more and then switching play, but it seemed more subtle.
 
I love the idea of dynamic Team AI. I also like the idea of better CPU managers (i.e. bigger clubs) being able to respond more rapidly, very nice.

I think you can boil it down to three responses that the CPU should be able to switch during a match:
Attacking Urgency
Defensive Urgency
Dangermen

Attacking urgency would be the CPU's tendency towards forward runs instead of cautious support play. When trailing, the CPU could give more of its players (such as fullbacks) the freedom to push up and assist the attack and try to force a way back into the game. When defending a lead it would be the opposite.

Defensive urgency would be the CPU's approach to pressing and tackling. When trailing, press higher and tackle with more urgency. When defending a lead, be more compact and don't commit to unnecessary tackles high up the pitch.

Responding to Dangermen would be like TikTikTikTikTik suggested - the ability to double-up (go more aggressive) on an individual player, the opposition's dangerman, if the Human player is heavily favouring one particular route of attack.

In fact, you could combine attacking and defensive urgency into one Urgency setting, since the two probably directly correlate. And then you probably end up with the five-level Mentality setting that they already have... what does Mentality actually do, anyway? Does anyone know specifically what its impact is? Why does this stuff get hidden and never explained? It sounds to me like, once more, they're on roughly the right track but without having bothered to make it work well or bothered to communicate it to the gamer.
 
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