FIFA/FC vs PES/eFootball

[angus]

You might not care about your credibility but that's just a downright horrible analysis, and opinion.

How is it possible to have a horrible opinion? Or a wrong opinion for that matter? One can disagree with that opinion, and in reply call PES GKs more horrible, that I can understand.

 

[Chris Davies]

It was more about who the game is targeted to; not that it is a bad thing by the way, I think introducing ways to play the game that make it easier to new players is a good thing! However, for me it feels like the game is being simplified. However, this is just my opinion from my experience. Everything is subjective

It's worth bearing in mind (and again, you may know this already) that playing with that control scheme puts you at a large disadvantage.

I'm pretty sure that control scheme is there for people who have kids who want to play, and to a lesser extent the elderly members of the family. It's perfect for my dad, who's in his 70s, but he can't use it because he primarily plays online.

It's worth pointing out that there's a lot of people calling FIFA the "thinking man's football game" and a few who are scoffing at that, but he could win on FIFA 15 online 50% of the time, and he can win with that kind of ratio on PES online too. With FIFA 16, he's genuinely getting upset, because he's played 50-60 games already and won 2 (both thanks to a penalty).

He's "all there", but he plays by pushing the stick towards the goal and pressing "pass" and hoping the game gives it to someone. He doesn't think about it, or aim at a specific person. On 15 he can do that, and in the new PES he can do that, but on the new FIFA it's very, very difficult to win that way (and he hasn't yet, in open play at least).

When I do that - and there are times when I win the ball in defence and, as opposed to clearing it, I will press forward and pass and hope it goes to one of my players so I can get a counter-attack going (without thought) - it goes to one of the opposition players and I'm in real danger again, maybe 80% of the time (certainly more than 50% of the time).

That says everything to me, and it's why (as you say) people are "sensitive" to the suggestion that, even WITH fully assisted controls, FIFA 16 is the "casual game" of the two.

 

[patty_b]

The vast majority of Fifa player are complete and utter morons whose opinion I have zero interest in TBCH I just don't think that generalising about Fifa being a casual game in the forum of a demographic that does everything in its power to make it a non-casual game is really the right line to take. You prefer PES because Fifa's casual? The great thing about Fifa is it can be what you want it to be, if you're a causal youtube whoring moron skill abusing tool like KSI it can be the game you want, if you're an anal simulation demanding manual user like me you can get that (mostly), I don't feel PES has that flexibility (or desire to be that flexible).

You know what, you're right; I think I feel more of a community around PES than with FIFA. I only visit forums and what-not when I am playing the hell out of PES, but not so when I was playing FIFA. I'm not sure why that is.

It is the enjoyment aspect for me, I no longer enjoy FIFA, I tried putting that into words and they may have come across wrong, or not be felt by others. This year I am enjoying PES more, and like I said it doesn't mean that I am right and someone else is wrong, or that someone who plays both PES and FIFA is a schizophrenic

Who knows, give it a month or two and I see FIFA reduced on PSN, I might buy it and be playing it exclusively from then on as I may be getting some enjoyment out of it.

Just remember I love you all, but not more than the game of football.

 

[mfmaxpower]

How is it possible to have a horrible opinion? Or a wrong opinion for that matter? One can disagree with that opinion, and in reply call PES GKs more horrible, that I can understand.

Well I deleted that comment because I didn't want to get into it. But to answer your question, in this politically correct time we live, I guess all opinions are created equal.

But if we're being all grown-up and not worrying about baby-ing people, then c'mon, of course some opinions are downright asinine.

If I were to be of the opinion, for example, that Messi sucks at football, that would be a horrible opinion.

I believe in equality among people. Their opinions... not so much.

 

[Chris Davies]

If I were to be of the opinion, for example, that Messi sucks at football, that would be a horrible opinion.

Well if Henderson can keep up with him, and looking at the FIFA cover will tell you that he can, he can't be THAT good...

 

[angus]

Well I deleted that comment because I didn't want to get into it. But to answer your question, in this politically correct time we live, I guess all opinions are created equal.

But if we're being all grown-up and not worrying about baby-ing people, then c'mon, of course some opinions are downright asinine.

I agree with the PC comment, but in all honesty in these discussions I try to focus on my opinion of the game, rather than making comments about others opinions about the game. You can see where the latter leads, just look at a couple of the replies I've gotten in the past two pages, lol. If I wanted to be constantly hounded and yelled at for what I do and think, I would have stayed married.

 

[Placebo]

Just remember I love you all, but not more than the game of football.

 

[angus]

It is the enjoyment aspect for me, I no longer enjoy FIFA, I tried putting that into words and they may have come across wrong, or not be felt by others. This year I am enjoying PES more

I can come up with a list of a dozen things wrong or broken or just plain "ugh that's bad" with PES. My same list for FIFA would include two, maybe three things. Yet I've been playing PES all week and haven't touched FIFA. No accounting for the enjoyment factor, that's right.

 

[mfmaxpower]

I agree with the PC comment, but in all honesty in these discussions I try to focus on my opinion of the game, rather than making comments about others opinions about the game. You can see where the latter leads, just look at a couple of the replies I've gotten in the past two pages, lol. If I wanted to be constantly hounded and yelled at for what I do and think, I would have stayed married.

Yeah, there's definitely wisdom in your approach and we'd all be better off following it. One of these days I really ought to try this wisdom thing out.

 

[MUFan23]

Why aren't you guys *grabbing popcorn?

 

[curdstar]

If either developer simply had the balls to make a football game which possessed a basic enough set-up for all, with player individuality and tactical nous being key and being well implemented, this rank rotten debate about assisted v. manual could finally go away.

Both games are completely guilty of placing too much emphasis on end user tweakery and I am sick of it. If this was back in the day I would know exactly where I stand at this juncture with either game, confident about what awaits when I turn it on, knowing that I needn't worry about fannying around with assist settings/gamespeeds and alike.

Grow a pair EA/Konami.

 

[zeemeister]

I agree with the PC comment, but in all honesty in these discussions I try to focus on my opinion of the game, rather than making comments about others opinions about the game. You can see where the latter leads, just look at a couple of the replies I've gotten in the past two pages, lol. If I wanted to be constantly hounded and yelled at for what I do and think, I would have stayed married.

Yeah but I am not caring what you think I care that you blatantly lie. if you spread bullshit expect an answer

 

[superleeds1]

Alrighty folks just take it easy, its all going a bit personal.

Read this and observe please.

 

[angus]

Both games are completely guilty of placing too much emphasis on end user tweakery

Sliders are the #2 reason FIFA is even playable for me every year (global edits #1). I don't understand why anyone would be against tools to customize game play to suit the individual. That's a huge problem with PES the past couple of years especially: no sliders; and having to rely on player edits only, many of which don't work well or are entirely ineffective. I just posted another example of this with some screens on the PES PC thread.

 

[curdstar]

Sliders are the #2 reason FIFA is even playable for me every year (global edits #1). I don't understand why anyone would be against tools to customize game play to suit the individual. That's a huge problem with PES the past couple of years especially: no sliders; and having to rely on player edits only, many of which don't work well or are entirely ineffective. I just posted another example of this with some screens on the PES PC thread.

I'm not against it, just that less emphasis should be placed on the end user to fix/enhance the game. Developers should be the ones getting the controls balanced, the AI balanced and the core fundamentals balanced so as the out-the-box experience is pretty much near how everybody should want to play. I refer back to the post which you quoted that having had PES for two weeks and FIFA for a good few days I can often spend more time than I really want to be dicking about with controller options and alike, trying to get the right mix.


PES needs to explain its settings better. I have been playing with manual passing and manual shooting all this afternoon and on -1 speed. The games have been fantastic, balanced affairs against AI on Top Player. Last night I was playing with manual passing but assisted shooting and it was horrific; as if the game wanted to make the passing game a bloody chore for me because I picked the 'simple' shooting option. When I have been playing today with both set to manual, it is as if the game is allowing for matches to breathe a little more for me. It isn't any easier per say, just a tad more forgiving in the passing game as, again, it is like the AI is showing me respect for playing with those settings and as a result is playing a far more measured game itself. The game since these changes is playing like a re-imagining of PES2011's fundamentals, though it could still do with just a tiny bit more assistance.

So taking something like the above into account and IF the game is doing something, those things then I want that explained, along with how gamespeed might impact on how the game plays beyond simply being slower, because when the gamespeed is knocked down the game demands more from the player and the AI definitely plays a different game into the bargain.

 

[angus]

Developers should be the ones getting the controls balanced, the AI balanced and the core fundamentals balanced so as the out-the-box experience is pretty much near how everybody should want to play.

I always play PES 30 minute games, plays just the right pace (could be a bit slower, but...). The other day I played a 10 minute game for the first time, and the CPU sped up to cartoon levels, it was comical. One person I mentioned this to said he only plays 10 minute games and prefers the speedy game play. How do devs balance all that? What if I want to play 10 minute games but at a realistic speed? Is there such a thing as "everybody should want to play"?

 

[curdstar]

I always play PES 30 minute games, plays just the right pace (could be a bit slower, but...). The other day I played a 10 minute game for the first time, and the CPU sped up to cartoon levels, it was comical. One person I mentioned this to said he only plays 10 minute games and prefers the speedy game play. How do devs balance all that? What if I want to play 10 minute games but at a realistic speed? Is there such a thing as "everybody should want to play"?

Match duration is another thing entirely, and taking on board what you are saying the game is adapting to that player choice just fine. My point is more to do with core mechanics and gameplay design that is better crafted and explained.

In fact, you saying you play 30min games and there is a better pace to proceedings to be had could in itself be better explained then. Something so simple as to say "increasing match length will result in games playing at slower pace, with passing and shooting error increasing as a result. Player Stamina levels and condition will also have a greater impact."

 

[angus]

Match duration is another thing entirely

I don't see how, I think it's a perfect example of what I'm saying. If PES had sliders, I could play 10 minute games and slow the pace to suit my preference. Why should I be forced to play 30 minute games if I want realistic pace? It's no wonder I read posts about PES being arcade, I usually scratch my head at those posts. But apparently anyone who prefers to play 10 minute games, are all having to play PES in Roadrunner/Coyote mode. They're screaming about how bad the game is because it is in fact awful at that pace.

 

[CalcioCalabrese]

I think the more options a game introduces, the harder it is to balance. Difficulty settings, control settings for passing/shooting - match lengths etc.

Which combination is the game built on as a foundation? Which things are dumbed down or improved once you deviate from that foundation? People scream for more options but I'd prefer less settings and the game just being optimised for those fewer options.

Do we REALLY need 5 or 6 difficulty settings? How about one setting with the ability to change a slider/menu option for goalkeepers, defenders and offensive AI. That way you can target the problem area specifically. I guess FIFA allows this now through its sliders but I don't know if that many options are needed either. Doesn't hurt I guess.

 

[Placebo]

I don't know if that many options are needed either.

They absolutely are, in fact I want more, could easily come up with another 5 sliders that would be very useful to have, especially for those not playing on PC and unable to tweak things in other ways. Otherwise we're playing the football game the developers think we should be playing and that's always going to be very different to the game a lot of people playing, hell ask 5 people randomly on here (from a mix of the PES/Fifa forums) how the game should play out and you'll probably get 5 different answers!

 

[elfie]

I play a baseball game called MLB the Show. It's an amazing game.
One of the nice things is dynamic difficulty.
When you are hitting, and hitting well the cpu will throw the level up a notch. Say you start on rookie. Then there rookie + etc.
This goes upto 3 plusses, and then you go to the next level which is veteran.
However, when you're not batting well it goes down again. You can freeze it once you've reached the desired setting.
There's also a slider where you can set how fast you go a notch up.
It works really well, and slowly you get to a level which you like.

One of the great things of baseball is that you're either on offense (batting) or on defense. (you bat 9 times and take the field 9 times in a game)There are separate difficulty settings for batting and fielding.
So, i suck at batting which i put on rookie +++, fiedling is on veteran +++

Works great. Also there are separate sliders for the infielders and outfielder.
I think it's a great idea for football games as well.
I understand it might be much more difficult to implement, since offense and defense a constantly changing, but it should not be impossible.

Would be great to have different difficulty settings for offense and defense.

 

[Jamezinho]

I play a baseball game called MLB the Show. It's an amazing game.
One of the nice things is dynamic difficulty.
When you are hitting, and hitting well the cpu will throw the level up a notch. Say you start on rookie. Then there rookie + etc.
This goes upto 3 plusses, and then you go to the next level which is veteran.
However, when you're not batting well it goes down again. You can freeze it once you've reached the desired setting.
There's also a slider where you can set how fast you go a notch up.
It works really well, and slowly you get to a level which you like.

One of the great things of baseball is that you're either on offense (batting) or on defense. (you bat 9 times and take the field 9 times in a game)There are separate difficulty settings for batting and fielding.
So, i suck at batting which i put on rookie +++, fiedling is on veteran +++

Works great. Also there are separate sliders for the infielders and outfielder.
I think it's a great idea for football games as well.
I understand it might be much more difficult to implement, since offense and defense a constantly changing, but it should not be impossible.

Would be great to have different difficulty settings for offense and defense.

I'm a big fan of a PC racing sim called Raceroom Racing Experience (by the devs formerly known as Simbin). It has a nice feature called 'Adaptive AI' that works in a similar way. It constantly monitors the player's performance and tries to match the AI's pace accordingly. It takes a good few races to 'train' the AI but the end result is quite impressive.

Something similar in football games would be most welcome as I often feel the preset difficulty levels never quite work for me. I mean, in an ideal world, a level between pro and world class would work well in FIFA.

Dynamic/adaptive difficulty would undoubtedly be a complex system to implement into a football game with so many fluid systems and tactical styles at work.

 

[Chris Davies]

I'm usually quite measured in my opinions - PES does some things better than FIFA (which it does), both offer a different experience (which they do). I've bought both, and enjoy playing both (though I've been enjoying FIFA more overall). I'd defend anyone who enjoys either more than the other, because it's easy to see that PES provides something else (some would say "fun") and FIFA provides the opposite (a slower and, some would say, more frustrating approach).

But, after a quiet weekend with plenty of game-time on both, I decided to try PES online.

WOW. I mean, WOW.

It's no exaggeration to say it's the worst football game I have ever played online (those who know me will know I don't make statements like that very often), and that's including last year's game with all the lag (at least that kept scorelines sensible).

8-1, 4-4, 7-1, 8-0. The game should be called "Through-Pass 2016", it's all you ever see. Every through-ball and cross leads to a shot on target, and a shot on target is usually a goal. (There are a great deal of people saying this is down to the goalkeepers, but it's a much deeper problem than that.)

If scorelines like that are "fun", do they not become dull in their repetition?

I've compared PES 2016 to FIFA 15 (online) before, and it's very similar in my eyes (online). It's all about pace, a massive chasm where the midfield should be, players who just point in a vague forwards direction and press "pass" and the game lets them do that (no skill involved), loads of shots, stupid scorelines. But these scorelines are even worse.

It has to be said, there are a group of people (and I don't mean on Evo-Web, I mean in general) who are labelling PES as "fun" and "exciting" and "unpredictable", who labelled FIFA 15 as "too fast" and "too easy" and "stupid football".

(Those people who labelled FIFA were right - so why is this PES different? Because there's a "misunderstood genius" about those design decisions? Konami have been put on a pedestal for far too long now.)

Some of the arguments about how good PES is, for me, have become almost religious - claims about doing X or Y making the game better without any real proof. "Hey, I play on manual and the CPU AI starts playing worse too, as if they're on manual too!" How much time do you think Konami dedicate to manual passing / shooting? How many people do you think play PES on manual? It's so far below 1% that it's barely a consideration - look at how the assisted settings 1-3 are bugged (they're all the same). You think anyone notices that other than us sad bastards on a forum who test this stuff out? Not a chance.

Notice how they never talk about improvements to manual passing or shooting in PR materials? There's a reason.

There is no special manual AI programming. That would take up time that the developers could be using on the game that 99% of people play.

If you play badly on assisted controls, the game plays badly too, because it rubber-bands to ensure you don't feel too dominated or too in-control, depending on the teams used. It's not some special "manual AI" kicking in. Konami don't care about you - they care about the FIFA players they're trying to entice over with MyClub because there's more of them than there are serious PES players (and you know what, maybe some of the kids who loved the scorelines etc. of FIFA 15 WILL switch - and I hope they do, because it'll make the FIFA experience a little bit cleaner as a result).

There's almost this belief that the game is designed to be "secretly" great. "Well of course it's rubbish if you don't play on manual." So that makes it alright, does it? That it's crap for 99% of players but amazing for you and 10 forum members? You think Konami's programmers talk about how to make the game better for the manual players because they're the real football fans?

Search the PES thread for "placebo" (not the forum member). "If I play at home, the game seems faster - is this placebo?" "If I change my home stadium, the game seems faster - is this placebo?" "If I play without kits applied, the game is more intelligent - is this placebo?" "If I play with manual shooting, the game is faster - is this placebo?" I mean, you're lucky if people actually consider it might be placebo (the "edited kits make the game more stupid" argument was considered fact by the guy who came up with that one). There's a desperation to believe.

Some of the stuff is one step away from "you have to believe in it or you won't see it", seriously.

I'm hoping for huge online changes in the October patch (and small offline ones), or, honestly, this will go down as one of the most disappointing PES games ever, for me. Even though there are clear improvements in the fluidity, the rest of the experience hasn't been tuned to properly cope with that. The reviews are scandalous given the lack of truth about A) the squads being a year out of date, and B) the online games being atrocious. The game is nowhere near "the best football experience", and as for "the king is back", give it a rest now.

I'm keeping this post in this thread as I don't want to ruffle any feathers in the PES threads, or fill them full of negativity, and most of the points have already been made. This is a genuine opinion and not trolling in any way. I'm just totally shocked at the game online and some of the reactions from the community to an underwhelming product, in many ways.

 

[Kije]

Boah, great and brave statement Chris!

 

[curdstar]

I'm usually quite measured in my opinions - PES does some things better than FIFA (which it does), both offer a different experience (which they do). I've bought both, and enjoy playing both (though I've been enjoying FIFA more overall). I'd defend anyone who enjoys either more than the other, because it's easy to see that PES provides something else (some would say "fun") and FIFA provides the opposite (a slower and, some would say, more frustrating approach).

But, after a quiet weekend with plenty of game-time on both, I decided to try PES online.

WOW. I mean, WOW.

It's no exaggeration to say it's the worst football game I have ever played online (those who know me will know I don't make statements like that very often), and that's including last year's game with all the lag (at least that kept scorelines sensible).

8-1, 4-4, 7-1, 8-0. The game should be called "Through-Pass 2016", it's all you ever see. Every through-ball and cross leads to a shot on target, and a shot on target is usually a goal. (There are a great deal of people saying this is down to the goalkeepers, but it's a much deeper problem than that.)

If scorelines like that are "fun", do they not become dull in their repetition?

I've compared PES 2016 to FIFA 15 (online) before, and it's very similar in my eyes (online). It's all about pace, a massive chasm where the midfield should be, players who just point in a vague forwards direction and press "pass" and the game lets them do that (no skill involved), loads of shots, stupid scorelines. But these scorelines are even worse.

It has to be said, there are a group of people (and I don't mean on Evo-Web, I mean in general) who are labelling PES as "fun" and "exciting" and "unpredictable", who labelled FIFA 15 as "too fast" and "too easy" and "stupid football".

(Those people who labelled FIFA were right - so why is this PES different? Because there's a "misunderstood genius" about those design decisions? Konami have been put on a pedestal for far too long now.)

Some of the arguments about how good PES is, for me, have become almost religious - claims about doing X or Y making the game better without any real proof. "Hey, I play on manual and the CPU AI starts playing worse too, as if they're on manual too!" How much time do you think Konami dedicate to manual passing / shooting? How many people do you think play PES on manual? It's so far below 1% that it's barely a consideration - look at how the assisted settings 1-3 are bugged (they're all the same). You think anyone notices that other than us sad bastards on a forum who test this stuff out? Not a chance.

Notice how they never talk about improvements to manual passing or shooting in PR materials? There's a reason.

There is no special manual AI programming. That would take up time that the developers could be using on the game that 99% of people play.

If you play badly on assisted controls, the game plays badly too, because it rubber-bands to ensure you don't feel too dominated or too in-control, depending on the teams used. It's not some special "manual AI" kicking in. Konami don't care about you - they care about the FIFA players they're trying to entice over with MyClub because there's more of them than there are serious PES players (and you know what, maybe some of the kids who loved the scorelines etc. of FIFA 15 WILL switch - and I hope they do, because it'll make the FIFA experience a little bit cleaner as a result).

There's almost this belief that the game is designed to be "secretly" great. "Well of course it's rubbish if you don't play on manual." So that makes it alright, does it? That it's crap for 99% of players but amazing for you and 10 forum members? You think Konami's programmers talk about how to make the game better for the manual players because they're the real football fans?

Search the PES thread for "placebo" (not the forum member). "If I play at home, the game seems faster - is this placebo?" "If I change my home stadium, the game seems faster - is this placebo?" "If I play without kits applied, the game is more intelligent - is this placebo?" "If I play with manual shooting, the game is faster - is this placebo?" I mean, you're lucky if people actually consider it might be placebo (the "edited kits make the game more stupid" argument was considered fact by the guy who came up with that one). There's a desperation to believe.

Some of the stuff is one step away from "you have to believe in it or you won't see it", seriously.

I'm hoping for huge online changes in the October patch (and small offline ones), or, honestly, this will go down as one of the most disappointing PES games ever, for me. Even though there are clear improvements in the fluidity, the rest of the experience hasn't been tuned to properly cope with that. The reviews are scandalous given the lack of truth about A) the squads being a year out of date, and B) the online games being atrocious. The game is nowhere near "the best football experience", and as for "the king is back", give it a rest now.

I'm keeping this post in this thread as I don't want to ruffle any feathers in the PES threads, or fill them full of negativity, and most of the points have already been made. This is a genuine opinion and not trolling in any way. I'm just totally shocked at the game online and some of the reactions from the community to an underwhelming product, in many ways.

Can't speak to the online comments regards both games (thank fuck!) but trust me, a read over the FIFA16 discussion threads here and elsewhere more than highlights that it has a dreaded case of the "top secret special game" too. Absolutely no doubt it. At all.

 

[curdstar]

In all seriousness, finding a secret sauce with both offerings is fine and all. But spending hours having to try find it from near-on the moment you put the disc in? Fuck that.

Both games devout fans will give each developer of their chosen product a pass upon discovering "special secret game" but for fucks sake, just make it special from the off. Make it something that immediately feels balanced and only through further play over the course of a few months should user tinkering really be worth any time, and then it is because you want to make either game just a tad more testing. It should be as close to and as fun as REAL SIMULATION(tm) out the fucking gate.

 

[Bravez]

I'm usually quite measured in my opinions - PES does some things better than FIFA (which it does), both offer a different experience (which they do). I've bought both, and enjoy playing both (though I've been enjoying FIFA more overall). I'd defend anyone who enjoys either more than the other, because it's easy to see that PES provides something else (some would say "fun") and FIFA provides the opposite (a slower and, some would say, more frustrating approach).

But, after a quiet weekend with plenty of game-time on both, I decided to try PES online.

WOW. I mean, WOW.

It's no exaggeration to say it's the worst football game I have ever played online (those who know me will know I don't make statements like that very often), and that's including last year's game with all the lag (at least that kept scorelines sensible).

8-1, 4-4, 7-1, 8-0. The game should be called "Through-Pass 2016", it's all you ever see. Every through-ball and cross leads to a shot on target, and a shot on target is usually a goal. (There are a great deal of people saying this is down to the goalkeepers, but it's a much deeper problem than that.)

If scorelines like that are "fun", do they not become dull in their repetition?

I've compared PES 2016 to FIFA 15 (online) before, and it's very similar in my eyes (online). It's all about pace, a massive chasm where the midfield should be, players who just point in a vague forwards direction and press "pass" and the game lets them do that (no skill involved), loads of shots, stupid scorelines. But these scorelines are even worse.

It has to be said, there are a group of people (and I don't mean on Evo-Web, I mean in general) who are labelling PES as "fun" and "exciting" and "unpredictable", who labelled FIFA 15 as "too fast" and "too easy" and "stupid football".

(Those people who labelled FIFA were right - so why is this PES different? Because there's a "misunderstood genius" about those design decisions? Konami have been put on a pedestal for far too long now.)

Some of the arguments about how good PES is, for me, have become almost religious - claims about doing X or Y making the game better without any real proof. "Hey, I play on manual and the CPU AI starts playing worse too, as if they're on manual too!" How much time do you think Konami dedicate to manual passing / shooting? How many people do you think play PES on manual? It's so far below 1% that it's barely a consideration - look at how the assisted settings 1-3 are bugged (they're all the same). You think anyone notices that other than us sad bastards on a forum who test this stuff out? Not a chance.

Notice how they never talk about improvements to manual passing or shooting in PR materials? There's a reason.

There is no special manual AI programming. That would take up time that the developers could be using on the game that 99% of people play.

If you play badly on assisted controls, the game plays badly too, because it rubber-bands to ensure you don't feel too dominated or too in-control, depending on the teams used. It's not some special "manual AI" kicking in. Konami don't care about you - they care about the FIFA players they're trying to entice over with MyClub because there's more of them than there are serious PES players (and you know what, maybe some of the kids who loved the scorelines etc. of FIFA 15 WILL switch - and I hope they do, because it'll make the FIFA experience a little bit cleaner as a result).

There's almost this belief that the game is designed to be "secretly" great. "Well of course it's rubbish if you don't play on manual." So that makes it alright, does it? That it's crap for 99% of players but amazing for you and 10 forum members? You think Konami's programmers talk about how to make the game better for the manual players because they're the real football fans?

Search the PES thread for "placebo" (not the forum member). "If I play at home, the game seems faster - is this placebo?" "If I change my home stadium, the game seems faster - is this placebo?" "If I play without kits applied, the game is more intelligent - is this placebo?" "If I play with manual shooting, the game is faster - is this placebo?" I mean, you're lucky if people actually consider it might be placebo (the "edited kits make the game more stupid" argument was considered fact by the guy who came up with that one). There's a desperation to believe.

Some of the stuff is one step away from "you have to believe in it or you won't see it", seriously.

I'm hoping for huge online changes in the October patch (and small offline ones), or, honestly, this will go down as one of the most disappointing PES games ever, for me. Even though there are clear improvements in the fluidity, the rest of the experience hasn't been tuned to properly cope with that. The reviews are scandalous given the lack of truth about A) the squads being a year out of date, and B) the online games being atrocious. The game is nowhere near "the best football experience", and as for "the king is back", give it a rest now.

I'm keeping this post in this thread as I don't want to ruffle any feathers in the PES threads, or fill them full of negativity, and most of the points have already been made. This is a genuine opinion and not trolling in any way. I'm just totally shocked at the game online and some of the reactions from the community to an underwhelming product, in many ways.

Incredible post.

I think i said previously about pes fans attitudes (and i used to be one of them). Theyre so often driven by the fact they want pes to be great and i think the whole manual thing is a prime example. For years, the manual stick was use to beat fifa, no individuality with manual, assisted all the way. Now you can only enjoy it if you play manual.

Dont get me wrong, fifa ha similar fans but frankly, im not bothered about them. I want pes to return to greatness and jt wont with the apologists constantly trying to prove the game is brilliant. Thats not to say you cant enjoy it in its current state, but dont hide from the flaws.

 

[romagnoli]

I've read so, so many arguments in favour of PES in that thread which are the absolute polar opposite of what the same people were saying when such features were only in FIFA.

 

[Chris Davies]

In all seriousness, finding a secret sauce with both offerings is fine and all. But spending hours having to try find it from near-on the moment you put the disc in? Fuck that.

I agree in principle, but, for example... Everyone has a different opinion about whether FIFA is too slow, too fast, too "boring", not "boring" (i.e. realistic) enough. You can produce a great game of football, as recognised by half the people, which the other half think is abysmal - and for me, that's exactly what has happened this year with PES. There's a lot of people who think its fluid, exciting and with hidden depth. There's as many people who think it's a generic mess.

I don't think PES is bad this year out of bias, I buy it every year because I'm just waiting for it to be brilliant again. But all those people who think it's great could never convince me, because it just isn't, to me. It's not what I want it to be.

How do you deal with that as a developer? Make the game you want to make, and include sliders that let people make the game they want to make. It's the perfect solution, and it's the only solution really.

You could make a game that used all footballers' fucking DNA, recreating them and their play-style perfectly, and the game would be too boring for thousands of people who just want "a game like they used to be". That's absolutely not what I want - and if you don't like FIFA this year, I can be pretty sure what you want isn't what I want, either.

There's a lot of people saying the demo is very different to the full game. I'd love to see some proof of this, because I've played them back-to-back and not felt any difference whatsoever. It happens every year as soon as a patch is released - "OH GOD THEY'VE RUINED IT AGAIN" - but people find it very hard to extract and separate the novelty factor from the everyday factor.

You play the FIFA demo, you're wowed by it because it's shiny and new and has a limited amount of time/teams, so you're really excited to try the full game. You try the full game, and because it's not FURTHER shiny and new and exciting (but just the same as the demo), it doesn't incite further excitement, and this brings about the feeling that "the demo was better".

Both games devout fans will give each developer of their chosen product a pass upon discovering "special secret game" but for fucks sake, just make it special from the off.

I'm not stupid enough to think that I'm not slightly biased by the fact that I love a lot of what FIFA does (and has tried to achieve since FIFA 10 when they were explicit about their determination to beat Pro Evo at it's own game), but the thing is - I hated what they did with 15, and I buy both games every year, so I feel like, much like a football fan buying a ticket and booing the team, I'm in a position to be annoyed if I'm not happy with what I'm seeing.

Again, I'd like to see some video evidence that the FIFA demo is different to the full game, other than trapping being a bit faster. That's where I find the FIFA community is a bit different from the PES community - now this may well be bias, I'll admit to that, but I do feel like we provide a lot more analysis of what sliders do, and videos of what little touches make the game great, than the PES community, who talk of their magic version of the game where they get fouls but don't follow it up with anything (other than "it's because I play the game properly").

We all want PES to be great - there's a generation that do, anyway, including reviewers, which is (I believe) why the review scores of PES are generally always high - but that alone doesn't make it so. There's so much more to FIFA's gameplay than PES's, it's frankly staggering - and, again, that alone doesn't make it a better game, because if the basics are crap, then everything else is too.

But they definitely aren't. To me, anyway...

I want pes to return to greatness and jt wont with the apologists constantly trying to prove the game is brilliant. Thats not to say you cant enjoy it in its current state, but dont hide from the flaws.

That is exactly why there's a lot of people, myself included, who explode at some of the empty praise PES gets (and some of the "magic gameplay enhancing switches" that people come up with which mean Konami make a great game that you have to find for yourself, because THAT MAKES TOTAL SENSE).

We want it to be great - without competition, neither game will improve, at the end of the day games are business, and PES was a big part of my youth that I'll always want to be the champion of the two, because it was always about individuality and realism in a time where FIFA was arcade-as-fuck and had the depth of a plastic bag.

Yet this year, there's a lot of people who have said "PES was always an arcade game" when reviewing, or discussing, the game. WHAT?! No it wasn't!!

 

[Bravez]

I've read so, so many arguments in favour of PES in that thread which are the absolute polar opposite of what the same people were saying when such features were only in FIFA.

Exactly and ive had to stop posting in there and on wenb because i just get into arguments.

I absolutely dont mind what game people like but more often than not, pes fans arguments are baseless or in direct conflict with what was said a couple of years ago, like you say.

I always hear "pes has more depth" without any evidence to substantiate the claim. There are teams styles but once you know the attle and change your play style, you win. Thats not depth.

Again, you may prefer the pes style or core game play and that used to be what kept me coming back over fifa. The dribbling too, always used to be far better but EA have absolutely nailed dribbling in the past two games. Not needing skills, wrong footing players, quick flicks of the stick etc are all very well implemented. These were things pes were praised for in the past but seem to be ignored by pes fans playing fifa.

Another thing is the high horse pes fans used to be on (me included) about having to learn the game. Suddenly, that doesnt apply to fifa and "i played for an hour and it was the same old rubbish" is acceptable.

Sorry to end up ranting but i just think this attitude is holding the series back. Also, its not all pes fans but there is a large majority. I saw a post on wenb about players standing off and after watching MNF deciding it was realistic. Except kolarov ran 40yds uncontested. I posted a goal last year where di maria beat 3 people before scoring and was told it just showed how untealistic fifa is because one of the opposing modfielders didnt come accross to shut me down...in the last min.

The debate in here has been pleasantly mature and surprisingly tolerable.