FIFA/FC vs PES/eFootball

klashman69 said:
Konami have already started doing full body scans with Neymar which gives a hint there will be a very big upgrade to the game next year graphically and in gameplay.
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Graphically, yes - but you can't say a body scan means the gameplay will be better.

The PES engine hasn't changed at its core for a long while, now. The same CPU cheats (or "attribute implementations" if you want to be more technical/mature, I guess) are the same things that I was outraged about ten years ago (when I was younger and more easily outraged).

The basics could conceivably be considered to be better than FIFA's, and I absolutely agree that the basics need to be solid for you to make anything worth playing when it comes to a sports game/simulation. But I don't think FIFA's basics are bad any longer. Personal opinion though, of course. But the fact is that EA created an engine for FIFA 10 that was incredibly advanced compared to PES at the time (the ball was truly separate for the first time, the "rails" disappeared, and I remember playing that demo and thinking "this is the most exciting development in gaming that I've ever experienced"). Yes, it's starting to feel dated now that we're on next-gen consoles, but that's nothing compared to the age of the code at Pro Evo's core.

I personally don't think they'll ever make a game engine that will be anywhere near as advanced as FIFA's. My one hope is that with them cancelling all other console projects, they might dedicate a lot more resources to PES now. Fingers crossed.

But, let's be realistic. Even if they suddenly have TWICE the budget to spend on PES, they're not going to spend that on making the game much different. This year's game is closer to the old-school games than any other from the last five years. Even the motto tells you which direction they're going in - "love the past".

Every game they make from now on, if we're being realistic here, is going to be AT BEST a (very) good-looking version of PES 6. Which is great, if you don't want any more advancement than that. It's been nearly TEN YEARS since PES 6 was released (scary) - I expect more than that. For those of a certain age (and I'm pretty sure we're the only people buying PES any more, except for the few who have been swayed by the reviews), it's retro, and it's fun, but it's not advancing the series. It's replaying it. In HD. Without dog heads.

fernadez said:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?key=0AlBFJD_JRtbadC0yek4yUmdPci05dlZ0WldXRFJSa3c&usp=sharing

These are the ones I used before from Krabstar over at Operation Sports. They are really good. There's lots of variation between the teams to promote different styles of play.
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Excellent, thanks!
 
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scholes1 said:
I admire your positivity Klash, genuinely.

Like i said, i don't think it needs a new engine but it needs a lot of fixing.
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From what ive seen my friend next year all Konami have to do and worry about for gameplay is get the responsivness back to the level of PES 2011 - PES 2013.

That is the promised land. Many of the issues you spoke about will be sorted with the increased level of responsivness. Keepers especially regarding the vertial axis diving.

This last cycle has been about getting to know the new engine and getting used to the new functions, animations and physics. They where too ambitious with 2014 and it failed to produce what their end goal was so they have focused the last two years making the base they have playable.

With PES 2016 the first gameplay video i knew the game would have the same reduced responsivness and since playing the demo and full game i knew to take the game for what it is.

The frustrating thing for me obviously now is PES 2016 dosent offically even start till October 29th. Right now its a game based on myclub, copa libertadoers etc.. and online ranked matches.
 
klashman69 said:
From what ive seen my friend next year all Konami have to do and worry about for gameplay is get the responsivness back to the level of PES 2011 - PES 2013.

That is the promised land. Many of the issues you spoke about will be sorted with the increased level of responsivness. Keepers especially regarding the vertial axis diving.

This last cycle has been about getting to know the new engine and getting used to the new functions, animations and physics. They where too ambitious with 2014 and it failed to produce what their end goal was so they have focused the last two years making the base they have playable.

With PES 2016 the first gameplay video i knew the game would have the same reduced responsivness and since playing the demo and full game i knew to take the game for what it is.

The frustrating thing for me obviously now is PES 2016 dosent offically even start till October 29th. Right now its a game based on myclub, copa libertadoers etc.. and online ranked matches.
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Hmm, as per my previous post I have to disagree. These things aren't caused by response issues, they're fundamentally broken imo and require an overhaul of how the game works.

My personal opinion, and it is only that, is they're terrified to innovate/make sweeping changes. EA made their move at the perfect time. Not only because of the console transition but they got lucky with konami releasing the abomination that was 2008. They were afforded time to iron out bugs (and there were a lot) because PES was still a PS2 game. Konami don't have that luxury. They haven't had it because the game hasn't been up to par, and they won't want to risk losing anyone they brought back with 206. They're stuck between a rock and a hard place imo. Making sweeping changes to ball physics and their interaction with the rest of the game with have a huge impact and undoubtedly bring bugs. I for one would welcome it and I'd be much more accepting of issues if they did this.
 
There are so many PES flaws which are not related to responsiveness (unless you're using that in a VERY broad manner). I think PES 2016 is actually very responsive in a lot of respects - certainly the dribbling and the passing for the most part. In a number of cases though it's being used as a facet of player individuality, which is fine in principle but it's being overdone. It doesn't tally with what you'd expect in real life. Like a lot of the 'scripting' issues people see, it feels like some dice have rolled in the background and your player has decided not to shoot/pass until a defender has made it in front of you.
 
Chris Davies said:
Graphically, yes - but you can't say a body scan means the gameplay will be better.

The PES engine hasn't changed at its core for a long while, now. The same CPU cheats (or "attribute implementations" if you want to be more technical/mature, I guess) are the same things that I was outraged about ten years ago (when I was younger and more easily outraged).
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It has changed a lot. The style and philosophy is similar but the game started again from scratch with PES 2014 on a whole new engine. So in truth and you can see since the number of stats have been reduced the game has lost some of its depth.

What i said regarding body scans is a show of intent to evolve the game further in the future to allow new elements.

The basics could conceivably be considered to be better than FIFA's, and I absolutely agree that the basics need to be solid for you to make anything worth playing when it comes to a sports game/simulation. But I don't think FIFA's basics are bad any longer. Personal opinion though, of course. But the fact is that EA created an engine for FIFA 10 that was incredibly advanced compared to PES at the time (the ball was truly separate for the first time, the "rails" disappeared, and I remember playing that demo and thinking "this is the most exciting development in gaming that I've ever experienced"). Yes, it's starting to feel dated now that we're on next-gen consoles, but that's nothing compared to the age of the code at Pro Evo's core.
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Again, it all comes down to responsivness. Konami created a base in 2014 which focused very, very heavily on physics and realsitic animations all happening seamlessley. Graphically its a joke for me the game still looks easily better than PES 2016 on the PS4. Problem was the gameplay elements where all based on slow realsitic animations only and the game was a really horrid battle to play. This has been sorted in 2015/2016 but the carried over issue comes from this base has not been created to facilitate responsive movement which was available in PES 2011/13.

So they spent 3 years creating a concept for how a football game should play. Then another 3 years building the physics and animations up focusing heavily on all the things they couldnt do for PES 2011-13.

Konami build the game in 3 year cycles btw PES 2008-10 PES 2011-13 PES 2014-16. All the games within those cycles where similar.

I personally don't think they'll ever make a game engine that will be anywhere near as advanced as FIFA's. My one hope is that with them cancelling all other console projects, they might dedicate a lot more resources to PES now. Fingers crossed.
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They already have which is what i have been explaining. Konami have not embraced the new PS4 level of technology yet. They are still using PS3 level tech in this cycle, when you consider they have already doing certian things like collisions better than what EA still havent got right since 2011 so that shows there is much more to come.

Dont believe me look at the PC specs for both games this year. One game runs at 2GB ram recommended, the other at 8GB ram so FIFA have already for 2 years embraced the new PS4 tech.

Both will develop more next year regardless though.

But, let's be realistic. Even if they suddenly have TWICE the budget to spend on PES, they're not going to spend that on making the game much different. This year's game is closer to the old-school games than any other from the last five years. Even the motto tells you which direction they're going in - "love the past".
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Play the 2015 rosters! :LOL:

Every game they make from now on, if we're being realistic here, is going to be AT BEST a (very) good-looking version of PES 6. Which is great, if you don't want any more advancement than that. It's been nearly TEN YEARS since PES 6 was released (scary) - I expect more than that. For those of a certain age (and I'm pretty sure we're the only people buying PES any more, except for the few who have been swayed by the reviews), it's retro, and it's fun, but it's not advancing the series. It's replaying it. In HD. Without dog heads.
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:LOL: If you think Konami are only capable of doing a HD PES6 then 8ts clear you havent played much of PES 2011-13. To cut it short in the same way FIFA 10 was revolutionary because it was free and not on rails with the 360 movement. PES 2011 was a revolution tactically.

It was the first football game where the AI ran on its own tactics settings primarily as methods to build and attack rather than what happened before and still happens in FIFA 16 where the AI runs on a generic method to attack with the custom tactics being applied in a exterior way which is very low in priority in regards to the AI decision making. Its low because its been left exactly the same for coming on 7 years now and the priority is slow methodical passing for EVERY team which shows how little EA care about tactics and shows this base EA use is old.

Why i cant stand playing fifa is with the tactics which i love in PES. on FIFA you find one method to beat the AI and you know you can win most matches using the same tactics which you really dont have to think much to do. When the AI is doing the same thing match after match then if you find one method to beat the AI it will work for every team. Docks in his Watford career mode conceaded the least amount of goals in the premier league and had more issues vs Leicster than the did vs the big teams Chelsea, City etc.. every single team was doing the same thing, Hes 1-0 up yet the CPU are just passing the ball around themselves trying to start the perfect attack rather than get an equalizer. PES on the other hand and this year is no different, at times i must look at and think about how to counter how the CPU will play and i know i MUST change my strategy to counter the CPU. Some people complain about cheating despite being completley unaware that the CPU has a tactical advantage over then and dont look to change things.
 
romagnoli said:
There are so many PES flaws which are not related to responsiveness (unless you're using that in a VERY broad manner). I think PES 2016 is actually very responsive in a lot of respects - certainly the dribbling and the passing for the most part. In a number of cases though it's being used as a facet of player individuality, which is fine in principle but it's being overdone. It doesn't tally with what you'd expect in real life. Like a lot of the 'scripting' issues people see, it feels like some dice have rolled in the background and your player has decided not to shoot/pass until a defender has made it in front of you.
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Yes im using this in a very broad manner in regards to how the game is setup and programmed. You see it in the spriting.

I said this a million times. from PES 2011-13 You just tap, lightly tap the sprint and he makes a 'quick step'. From PES 2014-16 despite this years game flowing well you literally have to hold sprint to get him moving. Try it out and see.

I'll do a compilation of things PES 2013 does which PES 2016 cant do specifically reated to dribbling, shooting and tackles. PES 2013 was famous for 50/50 tackles, natural dribbling based on stats and the most varied shooting mechanic ever. PES 2016 is the precise total opposite. One great example i have saved is a sunderland player against me was dribbling at me. lost the ball and not even a full secound after losing it slide tackled my player stretching for the ball and got a yellow.

Responsivness is everything to football games.

Take that metaphor and you can see my point. Low level of responsivness affects every single aspect of the game. Not just that this is very reminiscent of FIFA 07-08 which also had very low response levels. Again like i said it shows Konami have spent the last 3 years getting to know this new fox engine.
 
peter110 said:
All talk of which is better there is nothing stopping you from getting both.
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Yes, and a lot of guys are getting both. This is just a discussion on different aspects of both games and I don't get it why you are irritated by that. I for myself find it very interesting, but if you don't, just don't read it, nobody is forcing you. ;)
 
I like and dislike aspects in both games.

I planned getting both but wasn´t sure as I feared that it´s hard to get used to the game you play when you played the other game before.

Fortunately that´s not a big problem.

Been playing FIFA 16 UT a lot the last days and I´m friggin enjoying it!
The matches are well balanced and I have much fewer moments of frustration than I had years before in footy online gaming.
The matches are tight, exciting, forcing when you know any mistake could punish you and I win some, lose some and have draws.
The balance is great this year.

Needed something fresh and continued my ML with Real Valladoid on PES 2016.
I enjoyed it as well (manual passing, manual shooting).

In the couple of matches I played I was even fouled by the CPU (he got a yellow card) and the shot variation on manual is a lot better.
And also so rewarding.

I really admire the player models and animations there.
At the same time I just wish there was as much life on the pitch like it is on FIFA.

But still, PES is defo a good game, no doubt.
I just wish they would caress its potential the way it deserves.
 
I traded FIFA16 in. I will absolutely go back to it at some point so far as a guy like me with the gaming time (lack thereof) PES just scratches the itch far better for me. Having to make compromises I ain't exactly overjoyed about (manual passing) but in doing so it offers a far more realistic but most of all enjoyable experience currently.

Just realised the other day PES2016 has driven pass in it too, when playing with manual passing - L1 + double tap circle = driven pass.
 
Whoever mentioned PES always ended up in 4-0, 5-0 scoreline must be over-exaggerating. Yes it could happen, but on pretty rare occasion. Especially if you happen to play as a big team against a much smaller team. I've encountered fair amount of tight matches that always ended up by only 1 goal margin and with both team having minimal clear cut chances created on Super Star difficulty. These matches weren't on full manual and manual shooting, in fact I left everything on default including game speed.

CPU also scored different kind of goals. It is true mostly they went for the corner, however this comes with a big IF. They only goes for the corner IF they are afforded ample space and time. It is also the most logical things to do in real-life as well. Player always being taught to find the corner since they were in the academy. So the key here is closing down the space quicker or utilize the man marking system.

This time I truly think there should be barely criticisms of the on-the pitch aspect of both games, because frankly this year there are really two solid football games for the first time in many years. I thought much of the criticisms on both camps are merely just a result of fanboyism or overly-critical.
 
losslesscompression said:
Whoever mentioned PES always ended up in 4-0, 5-0 scoreline must be over-exaggerating. Yes it could happen, but on pretty rare occasion. Especially if you happen to play as a big team against a much smaller team. I've encountered fair amount of tight matches that always ended up by only 1 goal margin and with both team having minimal clear cut chances created on Super Star difficulty.
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Bullshit, sorry.

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Every game is a thriller. Which becomes boring, and predictable. (August I played with auto controls, September with manual, all on Superstar.)

Now with FIFA I have the opposite problem - it's all 0-0s and 1-0s on Legendary (and silly first-time-pass ultra-precise victories for the CPU on World Class), but to say big scorelines in PES are "rare" is absolutely not true. In my experience (and the experience of friends).
 
Was down my mates earlier and played some FIFA16.

My mate is a total FIFA fan. Is buying PES tomorrow.
 
FIFA is just FIFA for years now...boring, with paperthin player and team ID and PES become dogshit because such things as fouls, decent shooting, decent keepers working passing assitance levels are not present in it...in a football game. And i cant believe PES 2017 will be any better. It still will be this fuckup pherhaps with fixed passing assitance level and fouls. But shooting will be this overpowered because it looks like became the kids game too just like the arcady FIFA. And everyone who wants simulation of some sort can screw himself with manual controls in both titles.


sad. but atm there is a market gap for a rather football simulator again
 
I've been swaying from one to the other since release. PES does some things superb like the player models, cameras and such but it is lacking in fundamentals , next to no fouls, slow motion keepers, AI always looking for the bottom corner . These failings in PES FIFA gets spot on.

To sum it up simply in my opinion the difference is simple. Regardless if you agree with FIFAs interpretation of football the game was released finished whereas PES was rushed and incomplete , let's face it the accurate squads are still not out and the issues I raise above where present in 2015 too
 
Jimi_Zuko said:
only way il swap over and play fifa, if they fix the tactics and redo those horrendous player models, thats the minimum for me.
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Tactics is the only thing that's missing for me (and come on, to only be missing one element - important or not - is a fucking great achievement). But, it's enough to get repetitive quickly and make me play PES on occasion.

But, I play PES and within literally the first five minutes I'm cursing that my defensive line won't stay back, and that the CPU makes my players stop in the middle of a sprint in order to win the ball (or direct my first touch at least 100% further than a normal first touch and literally fall PERFECTLY to an opposition player), and then...

...I quit both games and play Football Manager instead.

(And then, when I lose, I know it's fair, realistic, and I haven't been cheated, so I can go to bed and have a big cry.)
 
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Chris Davies said:
Tactics is the only thing that's missing for me (and come on, to only be missing one element - important or not - is a fucking great achievement). But, it's enough to get repetitive quickly and make me play PES on occasion.

But, I play PES and within literally the first five minutes I'm cursing that my defensive line won't stay back, and that the CPU makes my players stop in the middle of a sprint in order to win the ball (or direct my first touch at least 100% further than a normal first touch and literally fall PERFECTLY to an opposition player), and then...

...I quit both games and play Football Manager instead.

(And then, when I lose, I know it's fair, realistic, and I haven't been cheated, so I can go to bed and have a big cry.)
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I understand your frustration Chris, after this long both games still struggling in basic areas.
 
Midway through the 4th season of my career mode and loving every minute of it, found a great balance with ini tweaks and slider settings, win lose or draw I'm really enjoying the matches.
 
Placebo said:
Midway through the 4th season of my career mode and loving every minute of it, found a great balance with ini tweaks and slider settings, win lose or draw I'm really enjoying the matches.
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Care to share the slider settings? I feel like once I change anything by more than 10 points, teams all start playing in a much more similar way...
 
Not sure it'll help though because of certain PC modifications I use:

World Class (despite using the ini switch CPUAI_USE_DIFFICULTY=0 the difficulty controls certain team things such as how much uber pressing and tikitaka they do)






 
Gotta revise my last statement about PES.
Playing on full manual feels a lot better to me, but not even that keeps me playing it anymore.
So many things feel so outdated and limited even I see a lot of positives in this game.
But the negatives stay highlighted unfortunately.

Even there are things that I dislike in FIFA, I can have so much fun with it.

Actually I don´t find the player models that bad like last year, even there is still a lot of room for improvement, specially on player faces.

About the player ID which many people seem to miss in FIFA:
The more I play it, the more I feel it.
When I play with Lennon, I feel his agility and speed. But he lacks of power and shooting skills and that´s what I notice when he gets separated by the ball easily and when taking a shot on the goal with him.
Then there is Gerrard. He´s slow and not that agile but his strength, passing and shooting skills are very noticable in this game.
Same about defenders and keepers.
Managed to afford Cahill, Kompany and Rojo who do a much better job than Lescott, Taylor or whoever I got there.
Also Hart has done a lot of great saves compared to Mccarthy.

To me, ID is there. Even on a negative side.
Had a CDM named Coquelin. In terms of team chemistry he suited very good to my team but he was a total fuck up.
On his 1st match he was responsible for an own goal and in almost every match after that, he always fucked up. Got separated from the ball too easy, slipped...etc.
That´s why I got rid of him.

Even that´s a disadvantage I like the fact that this can happen as it does in real life as well.

I had the same problem with Walcott and Defoe.

EDIT:
I was talking about FUT mainly.
Never thought that I´m gonna enjoy it, as I hated it last year.

But this year it´s not all about pace no more and it´s a very good replacement to the MLO (specially from PES 2011 which I loved the most).
Never got warm with myclub.
 
gameplay like gameplay Ea and konami never will do very good realistic gameplay. It`s to hard for them and just deal it.

pes got many problems.
- corners
- free kicks
- penalties
- even u can`t add defenders to join attack ONLY on corners... than where is those deepnes of tactics...? U can`t choose how your playes will stand on corners... free kicks etc...
- black screens reloading when ball is out , no fluid of match.
-

- in fifa goalkeepers looks natural in pes like slow mo robots. Nothing near the real life.
- almost disable midfield balls going from defence to attack.Is sick. When u play possesion game u ahve on start worse posiotion to win.
- Unnatural pressing in full 90 minutes and stamina.... who cares? even injury player still play good and u can score using him.

is lack in too many places to said that pes 16 is good football game... is bad as fifa. Just in other places

Pes got graphic like games who has 15 years old. Menu, master league, all tables, tactics, presentation,scoreboards, crowd, stadiums all looks not even bad more like very very ugly.



It`s only a scrach of mouintan, and i don`t tell than fifa is better. Both games are crap and don`t have too many similars with real football. It`s possible to do good game playable with real football expirience, but those two just can`t do this.

If 2k will do football game many ppl will say bye bye to Ea and konami with no regreat.
 
I've always been a PES fan. However this year I bought both games. I just sold my copy of PES. For me I couldnt really get past the gamebreaking gameplay (fouls, goalkeepers, ai shots, ai cheating, etc). This game has potential, 40% of the time it plays incredible, however 60% of the time for me its just not fun and broken.

This year I found fifa to be a bit more enjoyable (a far from perfect game). But at least I am having fun with it....
 
I play Winning Eleven 2014 on PS3. Yesterday I downloaded FIFA 16 demo on PS4. Can't compare the animations. FIFA are robots, it's ridiculous. There are games on PS2 with better animations.
 
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