FIFA/FC vs PES/eFootball

[Bravez]

Been struggling with FIFA recently. Professional too easy and WC/Leg to infuriating, even with sliders.

Bought PES at £18 and taking it for what it is...basically a PSN game. It's pretty fun but as has been mentioned a million times, keepers are terrible.

the most annoying thing for me is the passing which is broken on both 1 bar and manual imo. manual the players struggle to react a lot and still the cpu takes over at times and changes direction. 1 bar is basically 5 bar.

That (and the usual grievances) aside, it's feels nice to play. Open spaces, time to play the ball about but not TOO easy to break teams down. You also feel closer to the oppo to make challenges which i find really annoying in FIFA. I always feel like their players have far too much space, no matter how high pressing is, yet they're always on top of my ball carrier. FIFA did it pretty well this year on lower levels although you still often feel rushed on the ball.

The linear difficulty is impossible to get over though. It's either too easy or ping pong/pressure which is so infuriating to play against.

Final thing which is always such a joy when moving back to PES is 1 on 1s against the cpu. I LOVE sitting the keeper down and dinking it over or going round them. It feels awful in FIFA,keepers never commit and it's too tough to round them.


Obviously this is a short comparison as most of the stuff has been said but that's just a couple of things that really stand out after playing FIFA since release and PEs for the last month.

 

[geeeeee]

Try the default game even without the day one patch. The cpu with poor team plays good passes in his own half but then it's more difficult for the cpu when he crosses the middle line. At least that is my experience. And yes legacy defending maybe that's why.

I'm even playing it with the newest patch on ps4 and I'm finding that they don't play like Tottenham (sorry Barcelona )

I played QPR v Reading today and we just attacked throughout but it was 0-0 until about the 76th minute then we got a penalty, scored, and then the flood gates opened and we won 3-0.

What was good is that I noticed Taylor a defender for Reading was slightly injured and it was him that gave away the second penalty to us. Whether his injury had anything to do with it I don't know but I used my imagination when I watched the replay and saw him lunge slowly for the ball but took the player. There was 8 fouls by the CPU in that game. More than I have had in all the time I've played PES2016 so far

I did a crunching tackle that was not a foul but it brought their player down, the ref didn't give the free kick and the crowd were booing (we were away). I enjoyed that moment

Also, I did notice what may be a bug... I am managing Wales in between managing QPR and posting on the forum. I played 2 friendly internationals and then I noticed that my QPR game had been simmed. The international dates were something like 8th and 11th and the QPR game was 10th. Had anybody else experienced that? My only bug so far.

 

[geeeeee]

Been struggling with FIFA recently. Professional too easy and WC/Leg to infuriating, even with sliders.

Bought PES at £18 and taking it for what it is...basically a PSN game. It's pretty fun but as has been mentioned a million times, keepers are terrible.

the most annoying thing for me is the passing which is broken on both 1 bar and manual imo. manual the players struggle to react a lot and still the cpu takes over at times and changes direction. 1 bar is basically 5 bar.

That (and the usual grievances) aside, it's feels nice to play. Open spaces, time to play the ball about but not TOO easy to break teams down. You also feel closer to the oppo to make challenges which i find really annoying in FIFA. I always feel like their players have far too much space, no matter how high pressing is, yet they're always on top of my ball carrier. FIFA did it pretty well this year on lower levels although you still often feel rushed on the ball.

The linear difficulty is impossible to get over though. It's either too easy or ping pong/pressure which is so infuriating to play against.

Final thing which is always such a joy when moving back to PES is 1 on 1s against the cpu. I LOVE sitting the keeper down and dinking it over or going round them. It feels awful in FIFA,keepers never commit and it's too tough to round them.


Obviously this is a short comparison as most of the stuff has been said but that's just a couple of things that really stand out after playing FIFA since release and PEs for the last month.

I was finding FIFA a bit hard on World Class. So I adjusted the sliders a little in my favour. Gave me slightly better first touch and passing, reduced their keeper slightly. So now my setting is something like "Professional.5" plays very well now.

 

[Bravez]

I was finding FIFA a bit hard on World Class. So I adjusted the sliders a little in my favour. Gave me slightly better first touch and passing, reduced their keeper slightly. So now my setting is something like "Professional.5" plays very well now.

That's not going to stop the CPU always being 3 yards away from you and ping ponging though. Even if their ping pongs are going astray, it's joyless because it's so one dimensional. If the nailed that the game would be untouchable.

It's still, imo, streets ahead of PES but I'm enjoying my break playing PES at the moment. It's got a nostalgic, almost remastered kinda feel to it.

 

[Chris Davies]

That's not going to stop the CPU always being 3 yards away from you and ping ponging though. Even if their ping pongs are going astray, it's joyless because it's so one dimensional. If the nailed that the game would be untouchable.

I totally agree with this - the problem with the sliders is that it patches over problems without fixing them*.

If I lower CPU acceleration, pass accuracy, first touch etc... It gives the CPU less of an advantage, but it doesn't change their patterns of play. So with adjusted sliders, I'll go from e.g. being beat 3-0 by Burnley (as a full-strength Liverpool side at home) because of how well their instant first-time passes and tiki-taka work, to beating them 1-0 because suddenly when they try to tiki-taka, I'm faster than them and I can intercept the ball, and/or their accuracy is so impaired they just kick the ball out every 10-20 passes.

They don't suddenly decide to play long balls, or try different things. They just keep playing the same football that should be beyond them against a full-strength Premier League side.

In FIFA, the difficulty levels are rubbish. On World Class or Legendary, Burnley don't play to their strengths, they play to the game's weaknesses. But on Professional, they're stupid (dallying on the ball and making really bad decisions).

*Not that I disagree with the game having sliders - my opinion is the total opposite to that - but there's no slider that can fix the difficulty level implementation, and/or CPU intelligence.

 

[fmicablues7]

I repeat, try default game, i played against derby county wich chelsea in career mode, and they were trying long balls, not everytime, but often. And i'm not agree with you about ping pong passing from the cpu, that's not my experience most of the time. As for the cpu having too much space, i use legacy defending, it's easier to pressure the cpu even in their own half, though i agree it's difficult to play high pressure in this game.

 

[geeeeee]

What has really helped me to enjoy this game is to just accept it for what it is. I personally don't notice tikka takka footy with smaller teams. I've seen them hit long balls or pass back and play slowly. Hit first time crosses into the box or dribble in and shoot. Maybe it's my style of play, maybe cos I'm in the championship.

Sorry guys if you see it differently.

 

[ramgamer]

That's not going to stop the CPU always being 3

It's still, imo, streets ahead of PES but I'm enjoying my break playing PES at the moment. It's got a nostalgic, almost remastered kinda feel to it.

I dont think its streets ahead of pes because pes as u said it has the better gameplay since its kinda remastered pes 5 with more freedom and animations for me the ultimate football experience to date but i admit fifa is the more rounded game

 

[hitmanuk]

I'm not sure where this tika taka term comes from and this all teams play like barcelona..it's complete nonsense..I tried athletico v Barcelona and that was precise passing , a few errors as it should be..then tried spurs against stoke and it was completely different ..lot more mistakes , Stoke crossing more etc

And PES being the ultimate football experience ..come on now , each to their own and all that but there is that much not right about it the release should of been delayed, and yes I do own it

Fundamental list for me

Competent keepers FIFA
Fouls FIFA
Shot variation FIFA
REF competence FIFA
Atmosphere FIFA
AI variation FIFA
Ball Physics FIFA
Player models PES
Camera PES

 

[ramgamer]

I'm not sure where this tika taka term comes from and this all teams play like barcelona..it's complete nonsense..I tried athletico v Barcelona and that was precise passing , a few errors as it should be..then tried spurs against stoke and it was completely different ..lot more mistakes , Stoke crossing more etc

And PES being the ultimate football experience ..come on now , each to their own and all that but there is that much not right about it the release should of been delayed, and yes I do own it

Fundamental list for me

Competent keepers FIFA
Fouls FIFA
Shot variation FIFA
REF competence FIFA
Atmosphere FIFA
AI variation FIFA
Ball Physics FIFA
Player models PES
Camera PES

i do agree with some of the list as i can see that atmosphere isn t that important for me as much as the gameplay goes, although i agree they nail the matchday atmosphere in fifa yes, the only thing that pes need to change which isnt something very hard are the keepers and the fouls, simply u have to admit when it comes to pure football gameplay on the pitch, the build up play and how players position themselves for creating an attack its simply PES hands down, the feeling of the build up play that sense of playing a sim football in midfield u cant find it anywhere, pes 2016 has its flaws but its at the core the better game when it comes to football experience, it comes from small details, from how the goal kick feels actually like a goal kick, how the ball drops from the goal kick, they nail it, u have to admit, pes 2016 is the good way forward for the next iteration hopefully konami will put their minds and focus on the flaws that i mentioned before as in fifa they dont try anything different, at least konami is trying to get us that lovely feeling of PES 5, which is to me the ultimate football experience from the ps2 days.

 

[hitmanuk]

i do agree with some of the list as i can see that atmosphere isn t that important for me as much as the gameplay goes, although i agree they nail the matchday atmosphere in fifa yes, the only thing that pes need to change which isnt something very hard are the keepers and the fouls, simply u have to admit when it comes to pure football gameplay on the pitch, the build up play and how players position themselves for creating an attack its simply PES hands down, the feeling of the build up play that sense of playing a sim football in midfield u cant find it anywhere, pes 2016 has its flaws but its at the core the better game when it comes to football experience, it comes from small details, from how the goal kick feels actually like a goal kick, how the ball drops from the goal kick, they nail it, u have to admit, pes 2016 is the good way forward for the next iteration hopefully konami will put their minds and focus on the flaws that i mentioned before as in fifa they dont try anything different, at least konami is trying to get us that lovely feeling of PES 5, which is to me the ultimate football experience from the ps2 days.

if you think its just fouls and keepers that need fixing and thats it then we want different things, AI shots are one dimensional especially on higher difficulties - pass wide, pass inside curl bottom corner.they look for that every time. im yet to see a top corner goal in open play
At times when the AI is attacking i might as well as put my controller down its that predictable.
Then we have the free kick model and penalities which are awful, keepers and animations are dreadful as discussed with limited movement and slow motion diving at times
Then there are the AI cheats which there are videos available where the player slows right down to allow the AI to intercept
And then the small minor things that kill the engagement - loads of master league night games, atmosphere, general visuals of crowds, out of date squads..not vital to game play but all add up.

I was a true lover of ISS/PES and have owned every one up until PES 2008 and since then it has been all downhill - they achieved things in PES 5/6 that they cannot replicate 10 years on for what ever reason.

 

[Jimi_Zuko]

if you think its just fouls and keepers that need fixing and thats it then we want different things, AI shots are one dimensional especially on higher difficulties - pass wide, pass inside curl bottom corner.they look for that every time. im yet to see a top corner goal in open play
At times when the AI is attacking i might as well as put my controller down its that predictable.
Then we have the free kick model and penalities which are awful, keepers and animations are dreadful as discussed with limited movement and slow motion diving at times
Then there are the AI cheats which there are videos available where the player slows right down to allow the AI to intercept
And then the small minor things that kill the engagement - loads of master league night games, atmosphere, general visuals of crowds, out of date squads..not vital to game play but all add up.

I was a true lover of ISS/PES and have owned every one up until PES 2008 and since then it has been all downhill - they achieved things in PES 5/6 that they cannot replicate 10 years on for what ever reason.

also fifa has taken over pes in the individuality area too, pes is too simplified in that area, also in pes the ball travels along the ground like its on ice, and also pes feels too smooth and doesn't flow like a real football game.

 

[creimer]

i do agree with some of the list as i can see that atmosphere isn t that important for me as much as the gameplay goes, although i agree they nail the matchday atmosphere in fifa yes, the only thing that pes need to change which isnt something very hard are the keepers and the fouls, simply u have to admit when it comes to pure football gameplay on the pitch, the build up play and how players position themselves for creating an attack its simply PES hands down, the feeling of the build up play that sense of playing a sim football in midfield u cant find it anywhere, pes 2016 has its flaws but its at the core the better game when it comes to football experience, it comes from small details, from how the goal kick feels actually like a goal kick, how the ball drops from the goal kick, they nail it, u have to admit, pes 2016 is the good way forward for the next iteration hopefully konami will put their minds and focus on the flaws that i mentioned before as in fifa they dont try anything different, at least konami is trying to get us that lovely feeling of PES 5, which is to me the ultimate football experience from the ps2 days.

True. Same feelling here.

 

[Chris Davies]

Football is an amazing game, and so open to interpretation - or at least it must be, because I totally disagree with the idea that PES 2016 involves build-up play (I usually pass to a midfielder and then run all the way to the box)!

For me it's the total opposite - FIFA involves build-up play, because the midfield is so congested that you have no other way through (I don't experience that in PES). The difference, though, is that every single game is like that in FIFA for me, even when you're playing against a bottom-tier team, whereas in fairness to PES I can actually see teams trying different things.

 

[vialli82]

hitmanuk you take every PES "flaws" to compare to FIFA, not fair neither objective at all, and some of your comparisons are discutable.

I can do the same kind of list but PES oriented if i want.
Starting with the most important part, the basis on every sports games: the physical engine... It's obvious that PES have a way better basis, after that they don't have as much algorithms added to that engine and i agree with that.

But shooting variation for example, can be added later while the basis and global feeling of cheap physical engine (like the Ignite, i can argue if you want) will stay the whole era.
Ignite seems to have reached is maximum ressources with Fifa 16 in terms of physicality, while Havok/Fox have a biggest potential of "streching" and many algorithms can be added without giving an unnatural feeling.

 

[geeeeee]

I am still not getting this every team plays the same maybe i'm just seeing past it. After all i loved PES5 and every team plays the same there.

Played three 15 min league games today and i was only going to play one game. Its the first time i have been addicted to a footy game for 10 years. Each game played differently.

Played at home to Sheff Wed we were 5th they were 6th and they hammered us 1-4. Playing different types of attacking football.

Then we played away against Charlton 10th v 7th and it was really scrappy but drew 1-1

Then had a fantastic 3-3 draw with Burnley. We were 3-1 up but thats a dodgy lead. They pulled one back and then pinned us back. What was interesting is that our right back Perch was attacking a lot and when Burnley broke it was as if they purposely broke out that side while he was out of position. A couple of times they played a long cross field ball to that side and that was where their equaliser came from.

Really enjoyed it today. So many different things happening. It is a joy to behold. If i'm honest i dont care if they keep the game play like this for the next 5 years

 

[Jimi_Zuko]

Football is an amazing game, and so open to interpretation - or at least it must be, because I totally disagree with the idea that PES 2016 involves build-up play (I usually pass to a midfielder and then run all the way to the box)!

For me it's the total opposite - FIFA involves build-up play, because the midfield is so congested that you have no other way through (I don't experience that in PES). The difference, though, is that every single game is like that in FIFA for me, even when you're playing against a bottom-tier team, whereas in fairness to PES I can actually see teams trying different things.

if pes decided to build up play in the midfield this year, i can guarantee you people will complain, which is what happened with fifa this year and why more people moved to pes, this generation of gamers dont like to play real football unfortunately.

 

[hitmanuk]

hitmanuk you take every PES "flaws" to compare to FIFA, not fair neither objective at all, and some of your comparisons are discutable.

I can do the same kind of list but PES oriented if i want.
Starting with the most important part, the basis on every sports games: the physical engine... It's obvious that PES have a way better basis, after that they don't have as much algorithms added to that engine and i agree with that.

But shooting variation for example, can be added later while the basis and global feeling of cheap physical engine (like the Ignite, i can argue if you want) will stay the whole era.
Ignite seems to have reached is maximum ressources with Fifa 16 in terms of physicality, while Havok/Fox have a biggest potential of "streching" and many algorithms can be added without giving an unnatural feeling.

well we have to agree to disagree but I do see you use the word potential. PES has had potential since 2014. It's always next year will be the one, and people are fooled by it and fooled by all these early awards. I would love to be proven wrong as a life long fan.

 

[Bravez]

hitmanuk you take every PES "flaws" to compare to FIFA, not fair neither objective at all, and some of your comparisons are discutable.

I can do the same kind of list but PES oriented if i want.
Starting with the most important part, the basis on every sports games: the physical engine... It's obvious that PES have a way better basis, after that they don't have as much algorithms added to that engine and i agree with that.

But shooting variation for example, can be added later while the basis and global feeling of cheap physical engine (like the Ignite, i can argue if you want) will stay the whole era.
Ignite seems to have reached is maximum ressources with Fifa 16 in terms of physicality, while Havok/Fox have a biggest potential of "streching" and many algorithms can be added without giving an unnatural feeling.

Of course it's fair. You're trying to compare something that doesnt exist by saying it might do!? PES physics engine may have potential (i dont have an opinion on that) but right now it's pretty crap and FIFAs is better. Its worthless saying it may catch up and surpass until it has.

 

[Chris Davies]

I am still not getting this every team plays the same maybe i'm just seeing past it. After all i loved PES5 and every team plays the same there.

Played three 15 min league games today and i was only going to play one game. Its the first time i have been addicted to a footy game for 10 years. Each game played differently.

Played at home to Sheff Wed we were 5th they were 6th and they hammered us 1-4. Playing different types of attacking football.

I wish I felt the same, that's all I can say!

Do you ever feel like you have to play a different way to succeed? That's the big thing that's missing for me!

 

[vialli82]

Not only potential: physicality and contact are more logic and better in PES, weight is more consistent: because of the basis: the Engine seems more natural, less "modded" and strechted in every area to make the visual feeling realistic (but it doesn't).

"Shooting variation" or trajectory is on PES flaws (only since PES 2015), but in both games, i've don't really like the feeling long shots, and i don't find goals satisfying neither beautiful.

In Fifa the ball physics is a bit weird in general (not only shooting).
The ball is making ricochets and takes speed like it was hit by a airplane.
It's a weird feeling i've got, like the one as i find the ball a bit too small and goes trough players.

In PES the ball is too heavy, gives a good feeling while shooting but goes too straight feels too powerful, not as much algorithms i think taken in consideration while shooting. BTW i've got no complain about passes, crosses, contacts with the player in general.

Also, i find the pitch too big in Fifa and too small in PES... That's another thing.

But to be honest, i'm not a fan (without hating them) of 2015 and 2016 versions of PES and FIFA btw, that's why i'm talking about potential for the future. I see more potential in PES with their current engine (adding some algorithms), and i really want a new Engine for Fifa, i hate Ignite in comparison to the "old" Fifa's PS360 engine.
I don't even want to discuss tactical football when i don't fell anything while i'm simply dribbling, making pass, shooting etc.

We talk, we hope, but this year and the last too, both games are ennoying in different way, it's not a really good fight to watch and argue about... Neither of them can keep me playing more than 4 months maximum.
Just two average sports games.

 

[geeeeee]

i do agree with some of the list as i can see that atmosphere isn t that important for me as much as the gameplay goes, although i agree they nail the matchday atmosphere in fifa yes, the only thing that pes need to change which isnt something very hard are the keepers and the fouls, simply u have to admit when it comes to pure football gameplay on the pitch, the build up play and how players position themselves for creating an attack its simply PES hands down, the feeling of the build up play that sense of playing a sim football in midfield u cant find it anywhere, pes 2016 has its flaws but its at the core the better game when it comes to football experience, it comes from small details, from how the goal kick feels actually like a goal kick, how the ball drops from the goal kick, they nail it, u have to admit, pes 2016 is the good way forward for the next iteration hopefully konami will put their minds and focus on the flaws that i mentioned before as in fifa they dont try anything different, at least konami is trying to get us that lovely feeling of PES 5, which is to me the ultimate football experience from the ps2 days.

When you mention the "pure football gameplay" I'm guessing that is with yair's patch installed? Because on PS4 I only get to play what Konami offers and it's definitely not "pure football gameplay"

 

[ramgamer]

When you mention the "pure football gameplay" I'm guessing that is with yair's patch installed? Because on PS4 I only get to play what Konami offers and it's definitely not "pure football gameplay"

Yeah i am sorry for that but it is actually with yairpatch installed otherwise the game is bad in vanilla state, thx to yair for keeping me playing this game until the nexf iteration hopefully for the better.

 

[geeeeee]

Yeah i am sorry for that but it is actually with yairpatch installed otherwise the game is bad in vanilla state, thx to yair for keeping me playing this game until the nexf iteration hopefully for the better.

No worries it's just a shame that I cannot get a patch like that for ps4. That's probably why our opinions differ so much.

 

[fmicablues7]

Shot variation is not fixed by this patch though. And shot variation is very important IMO.

 

[hitmanuk]

Although Yair does great work and admittedly i haven't tried his 2016 patch in the past its very much like fifa sliders, it helps certain scenarios but if there is a fundamental flaw it doesn't fix it..shot variation sounds like one of them

 

[geeeeee]

Shot variation is not fixed by this patch though. And shot variation is very important IMO.

Although Yair does great work and admittedly i haven't tried his 2016 patch in the past its very much like fifa sliders, it helps certain scenarios but if there is a fundamental flaw it doesn't fix it..shot variation sounds like one of them

Scoring goals is the aim in football so if there is no shot variation it takes away most of the fun.

Air hockey has more shot variation than PES2016
http://youtu.be/iArc6FTLISA

 

[hitmanuk]

In all seriousness I can't get my head round current pes players..not that I'm telling them what not to enjoy ..but in the past fifa has taken so much crap and rightly so..past fifas you could score a certain way every time..full backs out of position..every team playing the same etc etc ..and now pes has similar if not worse flaws whilst fifa has addressed them positively yet now the pes players just put up with them ..hardly any fouls and the refs are crap? It's ok the game flows well, keepers crap ? It's ok game flows well ..AI shooting low and bottom cornerissa 99% of times ? It's ok game flows well ..

 

[Jimi_Zuko]

In all seriousness I can't get my head round current pes players..not that I'm telling them what not to enjoy ..but in the past fifa has taken so much crap and rightly so..past fifas you could score a certain way every time..full backs out of position..every team playing the same etc etc ..and now pes has similar if not worse flaws whilst fifa has addressed them positively yet now the pes players just put up with them ..hardly any fouls and the refs are crap? It's ok the game flows well, keepers crap ? It's ok game flows well ..AI shooting low and bottom cornerissa 99% of times ? It's ok game flows well ..

been playing Fifa solid for a few days now since deciding to give it another go since I sold it in December and have to admit it's giving me the old Skool PES feeling which I haven't really felt for a long time, I love the fact that u have to earn space to have a shot on goal or create and its very satisfying when it pays off, it's not perfect but after playing for a while PES is so far behind when it comes to variation in all areas as well as individuality, still Fifa isn't perfect but there getting there as for pes they are so far behind, they need to make a huge effort for PES 17, if I see PES 17 move smooth in the coming demos that will turn me off straight away.

 

[Chris Davies]

In all seriousness I can't get my head round current pes players..not that I'm telling them what not to enjoy ..but in the past fifa has taken so much crap and rightly so..past fifas you could score a certain way every time..full backs out of position..every team playing the same etc etc ..and now pes has similar if not worse flaws whilst fifa has addressed them positively yet now the pes players just put up with them ..hardly any fouls and the refs are crap? It's ok the game flows well, keepers crap ? It's ok game flows well ..AI shooting low and bottom cornerissa 99% of times ? It's ok game flows well ..

I feel the same way, Hitman, without wanting to come across as a troll. I end up going back to it after being disappointed with something I see in FIFA (after maybe 3-4 games), but I just don't see it. The gameplay feels far too basic for me (excluding the variation in difficulty when it comes to AI opponents).

That being said, there's a guy at work who loves it, and he exclusively plays with friends, so maybe that's what it's all about. I haven't had a multiplayer session for years.

But then, THAT being said (and to go back to your point):

[...] in the past FIFA has taken so much crap [...] yet now the PES players just put up with [similar faults] [...]

I read a FIFA 16 review that listed "slow gameplay" and "build-up play" as bad things (which is a shitty enough opinion to piss me off on its own), and yet the year before, on the same site, the FIFA 15 review said something along the lines of "it's too fast and too easy". In the PES review(s), guess what. Fast-paced gameplay is listed as a positive thing.

With that in mind, I got the impression from some (but not all) reviews that PES is the "hipster" thing to play with friends (for want of a better word). As far as I'm concerned, sports game reviews should always be about how well they replicate real-life (the ones that are clearly attempting to do that, anyway), but a lot of reviewers - and bear in mind that a lot of them will have played the game for a couple of hours, knocked up a review and then never played it again - were looking at the "fun" angle, playing them in the same fashion I'd play a hockey game, for example (I have no clue about the sport but enjoy whacking a puck into a net).

When FIFA 16 released, I was having nothing but 0-0s & 1-0s, offline or online. When PES 2016 released - as I've screenshotted before - I never had a game with under 4 goals, offline or online. The result? FIFA = boring. PES = fun.

(But I'm talking about reviewers there, not the genuine guys who play the game and enjoy the depth they find in it.)