Topaz
Programmer/TheAwesomeGem
Thinking about getting PES 2017 over FIFA 17 this year. I don't have a lot to spend and after playing FIFA 17, I got bored with the predictability and the simplified AI.
FIFA/FC vs PES/eFootball
- Thread starter Clown Baby
- Start date
ramgamer
La Liga
- 22 July 2013
- fc barcelona
The best football game would be a tweaked or rebuilt pes 2014 and fifaNo it would be a cross between Fifa and Football Manager
rockstrongo
Retired Footballer
Wow....I don't know what PES brings to that blend, shit music?
what are you,12 years old?
It's a thread for PES and FIFA.
Is it necessary to bash PES every other post?
Youve been doing that for 10+ years now,we get it,move on ffs,were you bullied by PES as a kid?
You sound a bit obsessed.
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Placebo
Ԁlɐɔǝqo
Yep the PES infusion would definitely be from some time back when it was the king, maybe even PES 4/5 or something (when I stopped playing PES for the most part).
Yeah I started posting on here the moment I was born in 2003, it was a joke, look at the wink, don't be a silly boy
rockstrongo
Retired Footballer
Still boring mate.Yep the PES infusion would definitely be from some time back when it was the king, maybe even PES 4/5 or something (when I stopped playing PES for the most part).
Yeah I started posting on here the moment I was born in 2003, it was a joke, look at the wink, don't be a silly boy
Anyway,serous discussion then,saw that you posted on the 17 thread.
Impressions on FIFA 17?
Compared to other games in the series,and your fav game PES?
Placebo
Ԁlɐɔǝqo
TBH I don't like forming "hard" impressions from such crappy footage, best to judge yourself when you have your hands on the game, some stuff looked ok in certain videos, lighting and visuals etc, same as some stuff looked ok in the PES videos but I don't really see a point comparing it to PES as I won't buy any PES until they stop crapping on PC users
rockstrongo
Retired Footballer
Havent played on pc since pes 6 and fifa 10.TBH I don't like forming "hard" impressions from such crappy footage, best to judge yourself when you have your hands on the game, some stuff looked ok in certain videos, lighting and visuals etc, same as some stuff looked ok in the PES videos but I don't really see a point comparing it to PES as I won't buy any PES until they stop crapping on PC users
And youre right about judging it/them on crappy vids or FUT kids,still people do.
Dont think ill buy it,if its better than 16, yes,the same or more arcadey,dont see the point,rather play fifa 15-16 and pes 16 instead
Placebo
Ԁlɐɔǝqo
Oh you're definitely missing out then, especially with Fifa in the sense of how well the modding scene has come along in the last few years, Moddingway mod adds new tournaments and leagues, players, faces, everything you could want
No it would be a cross between Fifa and Football Manager
Ah You're quite right. I hadn't even thought of Football Manager, the depth of that game would certainly add something special.
On another note my enthusiasm is really lowering after reading impressions of both Fifa and Pes 2017. Fifa looks to be an arcade fest and pes still has the same issues as 2016 apparently.
I'll still be purchasing both games as I find many things are overblown and dramatic online, and besides I tend to play offline matches very differently to some people who have been posting videos of Fifa 17 for example.
They are simply playing it down the wing, sprinting and doing cheap cut backs. I don't find playing that way enjoyable, but each to their own. That's one of the main reasons I avoid online play, as the matches don't resemble real football at all.
rockstrongo
Retired Footballer
Thats the problem with getting older and lazier,don't really have a need for a strong PC,most stuff I do is done on Mac or tablet.Oh you're definitely missing out then, especially with Fifa in the sense of how well the modding scene has come along in the last few years, Moddingway mod adds new tournaments and leagues, players, faces, everything you could want
But if I had PC I'd probably go back to that gaming scene
I was playing back to back friendlies of pes 2016 and fifa 16 last night and I'm still confused about reviews that state that pes has better animations and more player individuality than fifa.
Firstly with regards to animations Fifa seems to have so many, there's also far more shot variety, pass variety etc. I remember years ago where I'd discover new animations months after playing pes, but that's not been the case.
I can also notice far more difference between players I control on fifa, I can tell if someone is stronger, more agile, can shoot harder etc. It's nowhere near as obvious in pes.
The main area where pes beats Fifa without question is tactics, I couldn't even find an option to mark a specific player in Fifa unless I'm missing something somewhere???
The other area I personally think pes is better is player responsiveness, when I press pass my player will pass. I know a lot of this comes down to the fact that Konami prioritise player input above all else. It will pretty much cut an animation to prioritise what you want to do, as opposed to Fifa where it feels like until an animation is complete the player won't respond to your inputs.
I wish EA could go back to the responsiveness from something like their WC 2010 game.
Anyway ultimately EA are much closer to a "perfect" game than Konami are. All they really need to do for me is improve player responsiveness, and increase the depth of tactics.
CPU a.i is something that both games need improvements on but unfortunately with the way gamers are so focused on online, look at how big Ultimate team is, I imagine a.i is an afterthought, afterall opponent a.i is irrelevant online, and EA have supposedly concentrated on team mate a.i this year, as your team mates looking for space is noticeable online. I'm looking forward to seeing how real adaptive a.i is on pes 2017 but I'm skeptical as I've seen no evidence of this on videos so far.
What is really weird is I go through phases, one minute I think pes is better, then I find something that annoys me and I go back to fifa and vice versa.
Firstly with regards to animations Fifa seems to have so many, there's also far more shot variety, pass variety etc. I remember years ago where I'd discover new animations months after playing pes, but that's not been the case.
I can also notice far more difference between players I control on fifa, I can tell if someone is stronger, more agile, can shoot harder etc. It's nowhere near as obvious in pes.
The main area where pes beats Fifa without question is tactics, I couldn't even find an option to mark a specific player in Fifa unless I'm missing something somewhere???
The other area I personally think pes is better is player responsiveness, when I press pass my player will pass. I know a lot of this comes down to the fact that Konami prioritise player input above all else. It will pretty much cut an animation to prioritise what you want to do, as opposed to Fifa where it feels like until an animation is complete the player won't respond to your inputs.
I wish EA could go back to the responsiveness from something like their WC 2010 game.
Anyway ultimately EA are much closer to a "perfect" game than Konami are. All they really need to do for me is improve player responsiveness, and increase the depth of tactics.
CPU a.i is something that both games need improvements on but unfortunately with the way gamers are so focused on online, look at how big Ultimate team is, I imagine a.i is an afterthought, afterall opponent a.i is irrelevant online, and EA have supposedly concentrated on team mate a.i this year, as your team mates looking for space is noticeable online. I'm looking forward to seeing how real adaptive a.i is on pes 2017 but I'm skeptical as I've seen no evidence of this on videos so far.
What is really weird is I go through phases, one minute I think pes is better, then I find something that annoys me and I go back to fifa and vice versa.
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- Staff
- #673
That's the most amount of content posted on here that I've fully agreed with for a long time, that's bang on for me.
I play both games exclusively against the CPU and can't enjoy FIFA any more, because all teams tend to play the same way and use the same patterns. You play the difficulty level more than the team. Professional difficulty is a cakewalk, but World Class and Legendary give every team perfect intelligence, in regards to decision-making and positional awareness. That perfect back four, again and again, compacting and sniffing out every pass into the area - making that League Two defence just as impossible to break down as the best team in the world...
But.
You can feel the potential in the physics engine, in the variety of passes and shots, in the "human error" that is programmed into the game (without making world class players hit terrible passes - but, it has to be said, it does make terrible players hit world-class passes).
Unfortunately, team identity, tactics, even formations... They just don't matter to EA. They don't even matter in Ultimate Team, but at least there they've implemented "team chemistry" so that you have to at least PRETEND to give a toss about how you're setting up your team.
I can't even see my AI opponent's most recently used formation / players before I play them, so clearly EA don't think you need to change your set-up in order to play more effectively against an opponent. That says it all, for me.
I play both games exclusively against the CPU and can't enjoy FIFA any more, because all teams tend to play the same way and use the same patterns. You play the difficulty level more than the team. Professional difficulty is a cakewalk, but World Class and Legendary give every team perfect intelligence, in regards to decision-making and positional awareness. That perfect back four, again and again, compacting and sniffing out every pass into the area - making that League Two defence just as impossible to break down as the best team in the world...
But.
You can feel the potential in the physics engine, in the variety of passes and shots, in the "human error" that is programmed into the game (without making world class players hit terrible passes - but, it has to be said, it does make terrible players hit world-class passes).
Unfortunately, team identity, tactics, even formations... They just don't matter to EA. They don't even matter in Ultimate Team, but at least there they've implemented "team chemistry" so that you have to at least PRETEND to give a toss about how you're setting up your team.
I can't even see my AI opponent's most recently used formation / players before I play them, so clearly EA don't think you need to change your set-up in order to play more effectively against an opponent. That says it all, for me.
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They're important points, and really kill any immersion for me.
I was shocked (well not shocked actually) that I couldn't even mark a specific player. I'm not expecting football manager level of depth but at the minute fifa for me is as wide as an ocean but as deep as a puddle in terms of tactics. Pro evo has the depth pre match, but the gameplay feels shallow to me. I honestly can't see any depth at all, there's not even any real reason to play long balls, you can just literally play ping pong from one end of the pitch to the other.
What I really want is adaptive a.i to be brilliant, something everyone talks about, something that EA take notice of. As they'll pretty much bring their own version of it in fifa 18.
I don't suppose there's been any changes to the points you mention in fifa 17, i.e being able to see opposition formation etc?
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- Staff
- #675
Well, the Master League in PES has the brilliant (but far too powerful) "team spirit" - which ITSELF is a rip-off of Ultimate Team's "team chemistry" - but it's not in FIFA this year, so... I don't think EA are paying any attention to PES at all, to be honest.
Unless PES 2017 sells a LOT more copies, and/or FIFA's Metacritic dives like a rock, I don't think they ever will again. FIFA will always sell with the licenses it has. It'll take a hell of a game for PES to win back substantial ground. But I truly hope they do.
It's the same. I've been looking out for this, and in every video I've seen that shows your formation, the opponent's half just contains your club crest. Same as it is now.
ramgamer
La Liga
- 22 July 2013
- fc barcelona
u can't say that at all, pes animations are much better than fifa 16 even fifa 17, fifa 16 players move like robots, its really a dated engine the ignite, fifa 17 could be more fluid, but in that area u absolutely cant compare the animations, because pes is miles ahead, and to add, not just the tactics pes is better, its the build up play, in pes it feels like u are playing with real players, their positioning on the field, the way the build up is made.
I hope pes does well too. I can never understand people that want a game to do badly. A monopoly in a genre would hurt us, the people buying the games.
I don't get why some people miss that point. Having lot's of good football games will only benefit us in the long run.
The positioning on the pitch is much better, pes is almost like a game of chess. The tactics actually matter and make a visible difference to each match. The visible difference tactics make is almost the same as football manager.
Teams also play differently, a "derby" in master league play much differently to a normal match.
I can also feel certain teams when they press me more, or drop deeper and absorb my attacks etc. Opponents will visibly change tactics and again I can feel the change in the game. The flow will change, the way it does in a real match.
On fifa it feels like it's team a vs team b.
But we'll have to agree to disagree on the animations. Pes is more fluid, the animations are smoother, but there's less of them.
I'm not blinded by any game though, fifa may have more animations but the game feels clunky, the way I'd describe playing fifa is as though I'm suffering from input lag.
It wasn't always the way it is with animations, pes used to have many more, and as I said earlier I'd often see different ones months after. Fifa has been the one that's surprised me with how many different animations there actually are.
But ultimately I'm doing a master league in pes 2016, which says it all. I find master league to be more involving than career mode. I care about my players, when a player isn't playing I feel the difference in the match. In Fifa my players feel disposable which doesn't make sense given the fact that I feel differences between player strength etc
Realistically I can see myself playing more of pes 2017 than Fifa 17 as I feel Konami have focused more on the offline experience than Fifa have. I keep repeating it, but if this adaptable a.i works well it will make master league brilliant. If there's then more a.i variety in goals, and more fouls then it has the potential to be the greatest pes ever.
I'm worried because videos have not shown more fouls, goal variety or adaptive a.i. But I'll find out tomorrow when I play the demo (us account)
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rockstrongo
Retired Footballer
Remenbering playing This Is Football,around -03 -04 enyoyed that a great deal,probably shit,but enjoyed the.
Especially that you could take a dive in the box and get pens every now and then.
Should be a competition out there,so i agree,people wishing one of the other dead is so thick.
It will only result in the ramaining game being glitzy and "entertaining"
More developers more games,that's how we evolve
- Staff
- #679
Totally irrelevant, but, I remember hooking up This is Football (2003 I think?) to my brother-in-law's projector, I would have been 18 at the time. Standing next to all the players during the line-ups and going "I'm taller than Michael Owen, I'm taller than Kieran Dyer" etc...
It had the FIFPro license and at the time I'd have thought it sold enough to carry on for a while, but clearly not. Such a shame, especially with the might of Sony behind it.
But they're strongly allied to PES now, and Microsoft to FIFA, so I think that's it for the forseeable when it comes to new football games...
SXFuzz
Championship
- 17 November 2001
I'm crying out for the day in which another developer takes up the mantle of creating a football game. Give me fake players and a great engine, with everything totally customisable and I'll be a happy man.
I'd be equally as happy.
Licences and presentation are great, but ultimately I care about the moment to moment gameplay on the pitch.
Considering how big football is I'm surprised there's only really 2 games on consoles. I know there was a kick off spin off released recently but that's been largely irrelevant. Hmm maybe that's why no one want's to attempt to make one as they're worried they can't compete.
Look at Konami, the way they're fighting for licences with individual teams etc shows what they think they need to do to compete, when ultimately pes fans only really care about the gameplay. PES has never been about real players and teams, I didn't care if Ronaldo (number 9) was called Renaldo, because he looked like him, and played like him.
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rockstrongo
Retired Footballer
Same here mate,probably spam some other thread with caps lock omg:s til I got banned if that happend.
Hopefully,wouldn't hold my breath though,2k could be a solution,they've competed with EA and the NHL series,and acctually made better games than EA.
Would be great who ever does it though
ramgamer
La Liga
- 22 July 2013
- fc barcelona
agree totally, i remember when in older pes, the commentator will call him: number 9, i miss those goshh
Have to say I do totally agree with what you are saying especially the last bit.
For me now it's about going with the game that annoys me the least. I was getting into PES after reading the positive posts in the ML thread. But since I have stepped up to Superstar I am getting so frustrated with it. I'm struggling to get my WF/SS to run ahead or into good positions when I have the ball. Instead my SB will be the one attacking. Maybe I'm doing something wrong but I miss the attack/ defence arrows in the formation screen.
I am hearing a lot about how teams play the same in FIFA but at the moment in PES it is constantly through ball through ball and the shots from the CPU are pretty much on target or just wide at knee height, very rarely am I seeing any wild shooting. Even my own players can shoot accurately from anywhere on the pitch regardless of stats.
Now I know FIFA teams play pretty much the same but at least the CPU has a variety of shots and passes. The other day the CPU crossed the ball in to his unmarked striker but he vollied it right across the goal and into row Z. It was fantastic because I was waiting for the net to bulge. I've had chances where the ball has hit the players shin and gone to some random place and then I've realised it was my SB but then I've had Polter, my top striker, scorer from all kinds of angles hitting the ball true most times. I just bought Galloway from Everton and he is winning tackles most of the time and playing some lovely long passes which my other LB couldn't do. There is so much individuality in FIFA.
Yes the teams do play the same but so they did in my favourite game PES5. I know they are a decade apart but as I said I'm trying to enjoy the game that annoys me the least. Which at the moment is FIFA. All I am getting at the moment in PES is scripts constantly on Superstar and players running in dogs muck.
Also, Chris, I know you mentioned many times on here that you cannot penetrate the CPU defence with a through ball. I have done it a few times using the one two passing and having a run on goal. Maybe it is my slider settings. I will save it next time to show it is possible.
That right there sums up how I feel about both games the last few years.
It used to be that I'd buy both, and focus on the one I enjoyed the most, but now it's literally as you say the one that annoys me the least, and as I switch from one to the other I find things that annoy me in both of them.
I don't see that changing in this years installments either. On paper pes 2017 looks like it will be my preferred choice, based on adaptive a.i, more fouls, and better keepers.
But we've been there before where the marketing talk ends up being smoke and mirrors.
The thing that I like the look of with Fifa 17 is that it appears to be more responsive from the videos I've seen, that could just be the faster speed games seem to be played at, but even still, to me it looks as if there's less delay in players doing things.
If im honest i dont see PES improving much although i hope it does. With FIFA all it needs is for the Custom Tactics to work for the CPU teams in CM and i will be very happy. I wouldnt mind editing every team myself, long ball, short passing, wide attacking, down the middle , that would be grrrrrreat!
Yeah as you say if teams demonstrated noticeable differences between how they played it would make a massive difference.
As it stands I gave up on the career mode, it just felt like playing team a vs team b. There was no real difference.
PES does provide a difference between the different teams, although the a.i still isn't great, and the repetition of goals scored against you, lack of fouls etc causes it's own repetition. I can't emphasise how much I hate the a.i hitting the ball low the majority of the time in pes.
A.I aside fifa provides variety in matches from the things you've said, such as shot variety, and the fact there are quite a few different fouls etc that break up the flow of a match.
As I said earlier though Fifa for me is much closer to being "the game" for me. All it really needs is focus on the a.i., and then a few more tactical options.
Career mode isn't perfect, and there are a few other niggles, but ultimately if the a.i was tweaked I'd be able to live with everything else that annoys me.
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I've not played either of the new ones but so far for me FIFA is this year's choice..I've been looking at PES stats and fouls still don't look fixed with a lot of games still at zero..I hope it gets fixed but it's been an issue for a couple of years now ..PES 16 was just dull to me , very little variation in AI shooting and similar goals from similar moves most of the time..also I got absolutely no joy from scoring ..in the old days it was an achievement..anyway fifa plays a decent game and it's really unpredictable at times ..I'll decide for sure after the demos
rockstrongo
Retired Footballer
Hope it does,cause watching Nott Forest playing sideways for 90 minutes like i just had,with a pass % of 95, im gonna shoot myself.
Tried to enjoy my CM,had a good run of 10 games before i packed it in,rather watch my dryer for 90 "minutes" than play another game.
Atm,rather take all the flaws at PES then this.
But it f they sort it,great,I'm first in line
And hope I don't come across as to bitchy/angry,just pissed at my last game.
Have had great games on FIFA aswell.
Main issue to me is still teams playing exactly the same, need to be a "team ID" or something,long ball teams goes long ball,possesion goes possesion,simple.
But I think we wish for that?
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- Staff
- #690
I'd appreciate that! Those two games on FIFA against West Brom were nightmarish, their perfect back four were impenetrable. Any pass into the area was intercepted, and any shot at the edge deflected. No one-on-ones for 180 minutes of football. Just too much.
On the subject of swapping back-and-forth between the two...
My last post in the ML thread (in my Championship save) was about my run of 5 draws and, finally, a beautiful victory. I felt like I'd turned a corner with a new, defensively-minded formation.
Next game, against Brighton (in the bottom half) I lost 3-0, all three goals coming from a move of entirely first-touch passes I couldn't get near despite playing with half the team in defence. There was no opportunity to position defenders etc. because it was all so perfectly and swiftly executed, my players were bystanders.
I had to laugh because after the third goal, Jim Beglin said (with the team-name being inserted like a robotic answering machine system): "...Brighton...are an incredible team to watch, their tiki-taka football can be matched by none". EXACTLY! IT'S BULLSHIT ISN'T IT, JIM!
I was ready to snap the controller in half, but tried another game, against another bottom-half team. I lost 3-0, all three goals coming from 35-45 yard free kicks.
What makes me even more bitter about that one is that I'll never have the opportunity to score from a free kick because the CPU never fouls...
But the thing is, my run of results is so varied compared to FIFA, so I'll keep playing. I'm incredibly angry with it, but I'll keep going. Because I'm hoping once the team spirit goes up... The bullshit will stop. (But it shouldn't happen, my team spirit shouldn't turn Brighton into Barcelona.)