FIFA/FC vs PES/eFootball

[klashman69]

Exactly and ive had to stop posting in there and on wenb because i just get into arguments.

I absolutely dont mind what game people like but more often than not, pes fans arguments are baseless or in direct conflict with what was said a couple of years ago, like you say.

I always hear "pes has more depth" without any evidence to substantiate the claim. There are teams styles but once you know the attle and change your play style, you win. Thats not depth.

Again, you may prefer the pes style or core game play and that used to be what kept me coming back over fifa. The dribbling too, always used to be far better but EA have absolutely nailed dribbling in the past two games. Not needing skills, wrong footing players, quick flicks of the stick etc are all very well implemented. These were things pes were praised for in the past but seem to be ignored by pes fans playing fifa.

Another thing is the high horse pes fans used to be on (me included) about having to learn the game. Suddenly, that doesnt apply to fifa and "i played for an hour and it was the same old rubbish" is acceptable.

Sorry to end up ranting but i just think this attitude is holding the series back. Also, its not all pes fans but there is a large majority. I saw a post on wenb about players standing off and after watching MNF deciding it was realistic. Except kolarov ran 40yds uncontested. I posted a goal last year where di maria beat 3 people before scoring and was told it just showed how untealistic fifa is because one of the opposing modfielders didnt come accross to shut me down...in the last min.

The debate in here has been pleasantly mature and surprisingly tolerable.

Well sometimes, you get people like me who explain my findings but people just dont read it anyway

I always explain what i see in depth and to be honest now i just post videos since its easier.

 

[Bravez]

Well sometimes, you get people like me who explain my findings but people just dont read it anyway

I always explain what i see in depth and to be honest now i just post videos since its easier.

You do always provide reasoning klash. I may not agree with you but thats irrelevant and it stops debates becoming arguments.

 

[Banksy]

For me Fifa was always all fur coat and no knickers yet in the main last gen it had the superior physics and animation..problem was the gameplay was too one dimensional and although you could play a good game with a seasoned player it still felt shallow..

Fifa 14 was when I started taking ea seriously and although it had a lot of the previous generations weaknesses ie floaty inertia it gave a good glimpse at what could potentially be..fifa16 had cracking dribbling mechanics and varied shooting but a promising demo flip flopped between fan service and gimping of defence in favour of razor sharp quick turning forwards.

Fifa16 is the promise and if you actually get good at both pes16 and fifa16 there's not actually a huge fundamental difference between how both games fundamentally work it's just Fifa Imo does it so much more realistically and throws a whole lot more tech that is fine tuned almost within a inch of its
Life.

There both great games and any new adopter has come into the footballing side of footie gaming at a golden time..

Pes was always the smaller team,lower budget title and that's never changed..what has is Eas delivery and they've learnt from a lot of past mistakes..

I think for where pes is in comparison to Fifa interns of konamis understanding of modern tech it's in a pretty good place..

Problem is it still feels like there trying to get a square peg to go through a round whole.

I just don't think history will be as kind too pes16 as it will fifa16.

 

[klashman69]

I love discussion man.

I knew this as soon as i saw each trailer and it was confirmed when i saw the first gameplay videos that neither game will come close to for me what is the best gameplay for football games and thats PES 2013 on PC.

In this current development Cycle between PES 2014-2015-2016. PES just lacks the responsiveness compared to PES 2013, people have spoken about keeping your balance is too easy on PES 2016 to get shots off, this is because there isn't the responsiveness or sensitivity that was before to create that variable which was a feature of the previous 2011-2013 development cycle.

This is best seen with Sprinting which is correctly and for me best when mapped to the R1 button. In PES 2013, carried over from 2011/2012 is the ability to just tap or even lightly tap the R1 button and he makes a quick step. As we all know human beings take quick steps to form a running motion, so the ideology works here to map the 'dash' button to R1, so tapping it is a quick step, taping it repeatedly is to sprint as fast as possible which was the method used .

This is best shown here at 4:40 onwards with a run from Agbonlahor
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LuQQ4m-hDoU

PES 2014-2016 cant do this. You HAVE to hold the sprint button or nothing.

This is just one element of many i can sit for hours and talk about to why i said FIFA needs a fresh start on a new engine, to be honest what is best for EA is to just totally revamp the game, much like PES 2010 to 2011. Take everything out and rebuilt it so it fits together in a harmony FIFA many moons ago when it first arrived with its new engine on the Xbox360 (FIFA 07 9 years ago) switched the sprinting to right bumper in a long term plan to make sprinting more 'gradual' and less about just mindlessly holding sprint but using it like a pedal to change pace. Issue is over the year since, despite finally bringing in analog sprint, the whole sprinting mechanism is like you controlling a hover-board or ice hockey player, even the sprinting animations look really strange and off.

This is one thing I hated the most from the FIFA 16 demo and i'm seeing this watching Dock's manager mode, the AI has about 3 very common methods of creating chances when they enter your half!

- 1 Tiki taka across to find a space to shoot from 18 yards at 45 degrees

- 2 These next two show the issues with the spiriting programming. One of them is when the Ai gets the ball to a designated wide player near the touchline and he just smashes the ball ahead of him dead straight once or twice in a linear full speed sprint to get a cross from the byline.

-3 This is very slightly different to 2 but the Ai do an early cross after the first knock on.

Its terrible because it really don't matter the player, it he is listed as a wide player, slow or fast he will do this.

As someone who played FIFA during the really bad years along with PES and TIF, this shows after all these years the terrible programming is still rife in FIFA gameplay. This is what i was used to 10-15 years ago the AI having 4-5 common methods of scoring. This happened before because EA are a horrible, hard nosed company who hire and fire without care for the individual and probably happens now because some people who start programming certain elements never get to finish and the whole thing needs writing again or things are left in new people find it hard to change what was set before. Sad thing is Konami as a company aren't much better but at least have allowed most of the PES team to stay together.

PES 2016 is certainly not the perfect game i have been wanting, but my mentality is very different. Its like PES 2013 is so good for me, i could play that game for another 10 years, much like people have PES 5 and 6. So i see a good amount of things i like in 2016 and enjoy that for what it is. I've been hammering on FIFA and EA big time since FIFA 10, despite this is still played it against mates a lot from 10-12 and played a shitload of FIFA 14.

For me PES is at a big junction. What it tried to do for PES 2014 should now be possible for 2017 with now 3 games experience on the new engine and this development cycle needs to be based on the PS4 console. They aren't fooling me or anyone even on the PS4 console PES 2016 is STILL a PS3 technology level game. Its hilarious from Konami despite having more animations than the PC version the PC gameplay is still almost the same as the PS4. There is nothing next gen about PES 2016 or mindblowing. Where big things are possible though is if next year PES 2017 has its responsiveness as the same level of PES 2013 with all this new physics and animation to back it up which PES 2013 never had.

I've been very cynical of FIFA 16 since i feel the programming just is not good enough to execute a balanced simulation it was aiming for, i feel as if its another PES 2014 situation where you have developers being very ambitious and aiming for something which might work in theory but to execute it is a different thing entirely. What Matt10 has done again is interesting with the sliders and i will give them a try and some point when i'm not completely broke. Either way FIFA night now is like Katie Price or enter another ageing glamour model who has had way too much plastic surgery and despite going for a more sophisticated look which is fresh and interesting, the old scars still show and they are better off in the future just hiring someone new altogether.

After this long post i think my own wonder is the people who are really happy with FIFA 16, do you feel as if this game can be built upon in its current start and how in terms of core programming? I feel as if we are to see improvements in individuality for FIFA and teams playing differently without having to spend days experimenting with sliders, i'm convinced it needs a fresh start for this to happen.

 

[Banksy]

Bottom line klashman to experience the best of both games you need to be playing another human of a similar level Next to you on the couch..

Tinkering with the sliders or tactics with either game is never going to give you that however well the cpu ai is programmed..

I'm surprised in fairness klashman that somewhat that bases his principles on deep thought is so quick to proclaim pes13 on the pc as the promised land and both just released games as garbage.

Have a doobie bro..takes some deep drags and really analyse pes16 and Fifa16(I think your be pleasantly surprised)..

Honestly bro i honestly think your not opening your mind.

 

[klashman69]

Bottom line klashman to experience the best of both games you need to be playing another human of a similar level Next to you on the couch..

Tinkering with the sliders or tactics with either game is never going to give you that however well the cpu ai is programmed..

I'm surprised in fairness klashman that somewhat that bases his principles on deep thought is so quick to proclaim pes13 on the pc as the promised land and both just released games as garbage.

Have a doobie bro..takes some deep drags and really analyse pes16 and Fifa16(I think your be pleasantly surprised)..

Honestly bro i honestly think your not opening your mind.

Yes. its the only way to play fifa well is against a human. Thats how i played FIFA 11 12 and 14.

To summarise. PES 2013 is the most unforgiving game where there so many aspects to master compared to the newer titles since. The responsivness gives more variables in terms of shooting, dribbling and defending than newer titles.

Theres lots of videos on my youtube. Feel free to critique and give your opinion on them.

 

[angus]

This is one thing I hated the most from the FIFA 16 demo and i'm seeing this watching Dock's manager mode, the AI has about 3 very common methods of creating chances when they enter your half!

Still 3x better than PES 2015/2016... every CPU shot and goal into the low corner, lol.

 

[klashman69]

Still 3x better than PES 2015/2016... every CPU shot and goal into the low corner, lol.

A lot of goals happen like that yes and it needs a patch because its too much. Anytime the CPU gets some solid momentum, and you give them space, BAM! Low shot into the corner

Yet despite still you still get a variety and the CPU scoring different types of headers, volleys, chips and high shots even with this low shot issue.

Finally with the tactics i finished with the premier league, the CPU builds up in unique and different ways based on player individuality and players on the team even if it results in a low shot goal.

So if you look at what i said before, on PES the CPU builds up the play in unique ways based on player individuality and the team tactics settings, so despite even if again the CPU keep scoring that low shot goal, how they get there is varied compared to in FIFA where no matter what team you use or try the AI create the same carbon copy attacks.

So you have one game with varied matches but lots of annoying low shot goals and another game where the same carbon copy slow paced match happens over, and over, and over again where the Ai at times seem more bothered about possession than actually attacking and working the space.

 

[fernadez]

A lot of goals happen like that yes and it needs a patch because its too much. Anytime the CPU gets some solid momentum, and you give them space, BAM! Low shot into the corner

Yet despite still you still get a variety and the CPU scoring different types of headers, volleys, chips and high shots even with this low shot issue.

Finally with the tactics i finished with the premier league, the CPU builds up in unique and different ways based on player individuality and players on the team even if it results in a low shot goal.

So if you look at what i said before, on PES the CPU builds up the play in unique ways based on player individuality and the team tactics settings, so despite even if again the CPU keep scoring that low shot goal, how they get there is varied compared to in FIFA where no matter what team you use or try the AI create the same carbon copy attacks.

So you have one game with varied matches but lots of annoying low shot goals and another game where the same carbon copy slow paced match happens over, and over, and over again where the Ai at times seem more bothered about possession than actually attacking and working the space.

That's not true though, previously it was but not this year. How many games of Fifa have you played this year to come to that conclusion?

 

[MadbaLL]

i quit pes 2016, the same way i quit 2015, 2014... last good pes was pes 2013.

now only games that are worth playing and that i personaly play are pes 6 and fifa 14/15/16 (in my case 14 and 15).

all four of them are way, way much better than pes 2014, 2015, 2016...

 

[klashman69]

That's not true though, previously it was but not this year. How many games of Fifa have you played this year to come to that conclusion?

It is. i played enough on the demo to see this and i watch Docks manager mode and im seeing the AI do the same attacks all the time. Hes spoken about what i saw and disliked in the demo where the AI seem to prioritize keeping the ball over actually expoilting the space you leave.

I watched some of the clips from a few of the members here but some of them with the sliders on proffesional the game looks very uncompetitive. Way too much space all over. I like the unforgiving nature you get with PES AI.

I prefer to just watch FIFA played at full throttle by someone like Docks so you can enjoy the presentation and atmosphere.

 

[romagnoli]

Probably why plenty of people are moving to Legendary now. They've got to grips with the gameplay, or the sliders have made the game easier, and now they need the game to be more competitive. It's worked for me. Still some issues around team individuality which people are still experimenting with, but certainly I'm seeing pretty different styles of play over the course of a few games. I know I've faced some seriously incisive teams or those with particular players forcing the game, as well as those who keep ball conservatively and try to play for a draw.

 

[angus]

A lot of goals happen like that yes and it needs a patch because its too much.

Thank you for that. I appreciate honesty when it comes to talking about these games and their issues, and both games have issues.

Yet despite still you still get a variety and the CPU scoring different types of headers, volleys, chips and high shots even with this low shot issue.

CPU shot/goal variety in PES, when compared to FIFA, must honestly be considered non-existent, regardless of the fact that in PES you MIGHT see the occasional shot/goal other than towards the bottom corners. It's very easy to see and experience this: Play 2-3 games of PES and take note of CPU shots and goal variety. Then fire up a game of FIFA, and the first thing you notice -- it's shocking the difference -- is the significant increase in CPU shot/goal variety and realism. It's like watching women's football, and then switching to watching men's football, the difference is truly that extreme. The women score with soft bouncing shots and tap-ins inside the box, the men score with acrobatic headers and rockets from distance. And that's another thing as well: distance shots by the CPU in PES are non-existent.

Finally with the tactics i finished with the premier league, the CPU builds up in unique and different ways based on player individuality and players on the team even if it results in a low shot goal.

This is the one area PES beats FIFA and by a long mile, tactics effectiveness, yes.

 

[hitmanuk]

PES did look good to start off and I admit i slagged FIFA off, but there is no comparison now. FIFA is light years ahead in gameplay..dribbling, ball physics, AI variation, fouls and contact and then the presentation package..It is quite simply the best football game I have probably ever played in 30 years of playing football games.

PES is just stale, its almost impossible to tolerate for me now..hopefully the incoming patch will solve some of the issues but probably not all of them..i think there is a huge underlying issue with the engine that is causing some or all of the problems.

 

[mfmaxpower]

Thank you for that. I appreciate honesty when it comes to talking about these games and their issues, and both games have issues.

CPU shot/goal variety in PES, when compared to FIFA, must honestly be considered non-existent, regardless of the fact that in PES you MIGHT see the occasional shot/goal other than towards the bottom corners. It's very easy to see and experience this: Play 2-3 games of PES and take note of CPU shots and goal variety. Then fire up a game of FIFA, and the first thing you notice -- it's shocking the difference -- is the significant increase in CPU shot/goal variety and realism. It's like watching women's football, and then switching to watching men's football, the difference is truly that extreme. The women score with soft bouncing shots and tap-ins inside the box, the men score with acrobatic headers and rockets from distance. And that's another thing as well: distance shots by the CPU in PES are non-existent.

This is the one area PES beats FIFA and by a long mile, tactics effectiveness, yes.

PES did look good to start off and I admit i slagged FIFA off, but there is no comparison now. FIFA is light years ahead in gameplay..dribbling, ball physics, AI variation, fouls and contact and then the presentation package..It is quite simply the best football game I have probably ever played in 30 years of playing football games.

PES is just stale, its almost impossible to tolerate for me now..hopefully the incoming patch will solve some of the issues but probably not all of them..i think there is a huge underlying issue with the engine that is causing some or all of the problems.

Couldn't agree more with both posts.

Regarding tactical variety, PES for me certainly wins in the midfield and buildup to the final third. PES's defensive AI isn't great however, plus FIFA has so much more variety in the final third. Ideally you'd have a combination of both, but I"ll take the variety and challenge, and satisfaction that comes with it, of scoring goals in FIFA any day, even if I love the variety of buildup play in PES.

And regarding PES starting off great - it feels to me a bit like Konami made a game this year to win press reviews and entice casual fans. It's fun and sensational, but lacks depth, fundamentals, and (at least without playing manual settings) a balanced level of challenge.

 

[Jimi_Zuko]

i agree and disagree with the above posts.

Where i do agree on, PES is broken on default, konami have been fucking lazy and that does piss me off alot, espeically with defensive AI, default team tactics, player abilites as well as a few other small niggles, which i hope most of those are rectified in the coming patch, if not i will let them know about it.
what i disgree on is when certain areas are fixed, which can be fixed by editing teams and players, its the best football game iv ever played by a mile, but thats my opinion,
Areas which can be rectified most issues people are having with the game are stated below.

Long range shots from AI can rectified by going into edit mode for the opposing side and ENABLING LONG RANGER in abilities, what that obviously does is, allows the AI to take more long range shots with that player,
also by ENABLING EARLY CROSSER again allows the that player to perform more crosses, alot of these arent enabled in players/teams, which is why its frustrating to play after while, also to rectify fouls, if you ENABLE THE DESTROYER, that particular player will tackle alot more and create fouls and also if you ENABLE TRACK BACK, the AI player pressures you alot more, again its not 100% perfect but hits the spot for me, so if you can be fakt doing all that it plays a very impressive game, once again not good enough from konami, cos alot of people dont have the time to edit to make the game better especially when your paying full price, next year there should be a thread to warn customers what to expect from pes 17/fifa 17 or future titles before purchasing, cos these areas of concern have been there for quite a while and stronger voice needs to be heard so these companys can take us more seriously.
(only way to appreciate pes at its best is to play full manual passing and shooting, other wise playing with any assists is broken in my opinion.)

 

[Chris Davies]

Really good posts over the last few days, agree with all of it really, on both sides.

I keep going back to PES and trying to like it, but not because of the gameplay - because there's certain features I wish were in FIFA. It amazes me that I'm doing that really, considering that a few years ago, that's EXACTLY what I was doing but the other way around (playing PES for the gameplay, and continuing to keep trying FIFA because of certain features I wished were in PES).

As has been said above, PES with assisted controls is pretty broken (which also renders the entirety of the online game modes broken - that's a pretty big write-off). I'd love semi controls, but I'm not a fan of full-manual and never will be because I'd rather have SOME control, but then SOME limitation due to the player (more than manual enforces).

(Hopefully the upcoming patch fixes the - currently broken - pass assistance levels.)

I love the "team spirit" element of the Master League - for me, the biggest development Konami have made with PES in the last five years or so, and is quite literally the single thing that gives me some hope they don't want to make arcade gameplay forever, is that whole system of "team style" having to match up to "player style" to work efficiently.

I was in love with it when it was a part of MyClub last year, and I'm more in love with it now that it applies to the Master League. It's a huge feature, as far as I'm concerned.

But the game, for me, needs an entirely new engine. The game is full of invisible walls and ropes pulling you away from dangerous positions, and always has been. In comparison to FIFA, and I think your average gamer would agree, it feels antiquated and "broken" (I put that in quotes because if you played this year's game in 2010, it wouldn't feel broken, but now consoles have the power to truly free up the ball and make the physics much more true-to-life, some of the weird moments and CPU cheats are blatant).

I started a Become A Legend game, and with that camera angle (I think it's called "vertical") and a game speed of -1, you see some of the worst bits of PES. I'd line up in-front of an opposition player and press the "pressure" button, only to be "sucked" away to the side of the player (dragged off by an invisible rope) and/or hit a boundary I couldn't penetrate (the invisible wall).

There were also shots I was hitting that were clearly delayed so that a defender had time to get his body in the way, and a shot that went a few inches past the goalkeeper's hand but deflected off another invisible wall and out for a corner anyway.

You can see where the attributes won't let you do certain things, and that's fair enough (I want them to matter), but the PES way of implementing them seems to be using methods that had to be used during the 1990s and 2000s because the CPU power didn't exist to do it any other way.

Speaking of tactics (which I agree are better in PES)...

Whilst playing Become A Legend, I watched my own defenders literally walking along the six-yard box with an opposition player storming into the box unmarked, no urgency displayed whatsoever. I saw my defensive midfielder - and I only noticed this because I was substituted and watched the game play out from the "tactical view" - sit in a massive hole in the middle of his own half and do nothing, no marking of players, no moving back to help out defensively, no moving forward to receive a pass and make a counter-attack. I don't know whether that was the difficulty level (superstar, or whatever it's called nowadays) trying to fuck me over, or whether it was rubbish AI, but he didn't join the play at any point in the second half.

At the end of each game on 15 minute matches, there were a measly 3 shots each, for both teams, 3 games in a row, and ~90% passing accuracy for both teams. In one game, the opposition has 73% possession at half time, and these were all matches against same-league opposition (Championship teams)!

I remember a PES review from years ago that said "to see how good the game is, watch the AI play the AI - you will see how deep it is, and even learn new things, whereas in FIFA you see the exact opposite". Which, at the time, was a fair point. But as of a few years ago, watching the AI play the AI in PES (which is esentially BAL)... You see the above. Even with longer half-lengths.

All of this isn't to say that FIFA is perfect - the passing accuracy problem exists in FIFA too (and yeah I know there's manual, but again, that shouldn't be the only way to fix the problem) - but for me, playing PES almost feels like playing a clockwork game (in terms of the players).

 

[Lons]

Pes need new engine? Are you kidding? Fifa need more new engine than Pes in this moment. Animations and in particular collision system is much better in Pes. Quality Fifa animations looks the same since FIFA 09 on PS3. Only graphics looks better in FIFA. Konami created better collision system in 2 years than Fifa since 2012.

 

[Chris Davies]

We must agree to disagree then, mate - the game is so similar to the old games (and with the same programmed-in limitations) that the mobile version of the game looks like it uses the exact same gameplay engine as the PS4/Xbox One game (and in-fact, it's something Konami mention in the game's description).

I don't agree that FIFA's graphics are better (I love the PES graphics), and I don't agree that FIFA's gameplay is worse (I think it's literally twice as advanced, including the collision engine that even leads to injuries in the "correct" body parts now), so we disagree on just about everything.

 

[Bravez]

We must agree to disagree then, mate - the game is so similar to the old games (and with the same programmed-in limitations) that the mobile version of the game looks like it uses the exact same gameplay engine as the PS4/Xbox One game (and in-fact, it's something Konami mention in the game's description).

I don't agree that FIFA's graphics are better (I love the PES graphics), and I don't agree that FIFA's gameplay is worse (I think it's literally twice as advanced, including the collision engine that even leads to injuries in the "correct" body parts now), so we disagree on just about everything.

I think we have very, very similar tastes on the two games. I've been playing the PES demo again because my free FIFA copy is taking an age to arrive haha.

I genuinely find it baffling how anyone can say PES' engine doesn't need updating. I don't know if new is needed as I remember someone in the modding community saying the first fox game was mostly new, but it certainly needs serious work.

Again to be clear, that doesn't mean people can't enjoy it in its current state (I can't for the record) but there are so many signs it's struggling. The main (and biggest for me) is this whole on rails and determined outcomes. When switching from manual/semi on fifa, i constantly feel like i'm fighting with the cpu on PES. I feel like it's assuming what i want to do and doing its best to make that happen.

Super cancel is a necessity when it should only be a last resort and first time passes are a lottery. The game always assumed the player my first time pass is meant for, sometimes it get's there, sometimes it's under hit 30yds, sometimes it's over hit 30yds. Same with defending these passes, in the first instance, the defender runs to where it thinks the ball will end up, not where it can cut it out quickest or taking into account the attacker's movement. tbh, it shouldn't be deciding anything, i should be running where i think is best and not needing super cancel.

When you do manage to avoid the 'rails', more often than not the game has a fit. All sorts of odd outcomes and buggy moments.

The keepers and how they're absolutely tied into ball physics are another sign. There is definitely a reason they've been bad so long and I refuse to believe it's because konami don't want to fix them. The issues are deep rooted and will have a huge impact overall i think. Keepers STILL dive on a vertical axis. Hard to explain but it's why their top corner saves are always so unnatural looking. This has been the same since PES3 and it cannot be a design choice.

There are some other things too but these are my main points. The way FIA captures the organic nature of football in the huge number of seemingly random outcomes to situations is a joy. I don't mean patterns of play here, just tackles, dribbling, shots, saves etc. You feel with all of these aspects that the outcomes could be anything and I don't feel that at all in PES2016. I actually like the PES tackling better as a mechanic but as a whole, it still feels very basic, like there are 5 outcomes essentially. All look and feel the same.

 

[angus]

what i disgree on is when certain areas are fixed, which can be fixed by editing teams and players

Long range shots from AI can rectified by going into edit mode for the opposing side and ENABLING LONG RANGER in abilities, what that obviously does is, allows the AI to take more long range shots with that player,
also by ENABLING EARLY CROSSER again allows the that player to perform more crosses

It's a problem when suggestions like this are presented as if they do something useful -- naturally, check the relevant player skills, and voilà. But they don't work like that or, rather, they're practically useless as far offering an actual fix for the issue. The core game engine in PES is broken, or too old, or something. The coding is a mess from years of Konami duct taping it together, and now player ratings and skills are, for all intents and purposes, useless and meaningless.

I tested PES 2016 for many hours, just like I tested PES 2015. The same issues with 2015 are in 2016: the CPU will not take long shots and will not cross the ball, even when those player skills are checked. Sure, ONCE IN A WHILE a CPU player might take a "longer than usual" shot from the edge of 18 yard box. That might happen every 2-3 games.

Contrast that with FIFA 16: I raised shot power and long shot ratings, which activates the long shooter specialty. Now my CPU teams take a dozen or more long shots a game, many from 30-40 yards out, it's WAY TOO MUCH! And the quality difference in those long shots: in FIFA, balls are FLYING left, right and over the crossbar. IN PES, the few longish shots you'll see are all from 15-20 yards out, are weak half-efforts that never travel more than 2-3 feet off the turf, and even bounce before they reach the GK. This is the essential difference between the two games, between rating and player skill effectiveness in FIFA vs PES.

FYI, after hours of PES ratings and tactics testing, I did kinda figure out a way to get the CPU to (once in a while) take up to 2-3 "longish" shots a game. Remove CPU player passing skills, assign a 4-4-1-1 formation to the CPU, and set CPU attack tactics to defensive. This creates the setup where the CPU is programmed to shoot rather than pass, and with only 1-2 passing options on the attack instead of 3, 4 or 5. The CPU then will be much more inclined to simply shoot the ball from wherever. Assigning the one timer skill also helps with longish shots, the CPU will perform more one-time shots rather than pass the ball off in those attack situations.

 

[Chris Davies]

When you do manage to avoid the 'rails', more often than not the game has a fit. All sorts of odd outcomes and buggy moments.

The keepers and how they're absolutely tied into ball physics are another sign. There is definitely a reason they've been bad so long and I refuse to believe it's because konami don't want to fix them. The issues are deep rooted and will have a huge impact overall i think. Keepers STILL dive on a vertical axis. Hard to explain but it's why their top corner saves are always so unnatural looking. This has been the same since PES3 and it cannot be a design choice.

That's exactly it, for me. There are so many design choices from the days of much simpler architecture.

There was a call for Seabass's head, like his departure would herald the start of a new era (I was one of the people who believed that). But here we are. It's the product of a company that's been struggling for a while now. The evidence of the old code and the old pre-programmed limits is there, as you say.

It's a problem when suggestions like this are presented as if they do something useful -- naturally, check the relevant player skills, and voilà. But they don't work like that or, rather, they're practically useless as far offering an actual fix for the issue. The core game engine in PES is broken, or too old, or something. The coding is a mess from years of Konami duct taping it together, and now player ratings and skills are, for all intents and purposes, useless and meaningless.

Spot on. What frustrates me is that, obviously, I understand why we all want to make PES better and fix the flaws, but setting "early crosser" (or whatever the tweak you're making requires) for every single player renders that particular ability useless. It's there for a good reason, so by applying it to everyone, you're missing out on individuality. Suddenly, every player is set to cross early, shoot early and whatever else you like, and you might see more of those things, but you're breaking the (broken) game.*

It frustrates me no end, this idea of "with the right attributes, PES becomes perfect". The players have the right attributes now**, the engine just can't cope with them.

*I think people feel this way about FIFA's sliders, but with those you can make incremental changes for a greater good rather than "every team should cross at the earliest opportunity" (though admittedly, the sliders affect team styles negatively when you get them wrong).

**Excluding the occasional Championship player who has a bizarre set of attributes, obviously!

 

[romagnoli]

There are aspects of FIFA which feel phoned in, rather than the result of a labour of love. I'm not talking about major pieces of work like CM or online, but little things that would just take a couple more days work each, and happen to be in PES (though not having passing inaccuracy is a far bigger mistake, no doubt).


Things like short corners - why does the taker just stand there in an offside position? They should either be running behind the receiver of the short corner (if they'd have taken an inswinger) or the receiver should be the one behind the passer (if it's an outswinger).

I'm on legacy defending, because tactical defending is way too passive when compared to real life football, and doesn't allow for the sort of pressing game that's been commonplace for years now. (I feel like FIFA tried to fix problems with pressing, but did it in a way which isn't true to the sport, and has produced its own problems.)

But, because it's taking a backseat to tactical defending, it's not had enough attention to be well balanced. It's still a case of charging at the attacker, with little option to time your tackle (which tactical gives you but loses an effective second press). PES definitely wins here, with the double tap of X or square to perform a standing tackle or perform a triple press.

There are also things like the dummy free kicks (there's a clear gap between player A stepping over and player B starting the run-up which kills any surprise) and CPU short corners / FKs (a player is running 40 yards to the taker? He's guaranteed to get the ball).

Too many teams seem to have default tactics sliders which are just around the 40-60 mark. If these sliders were out of 10, most teams would have everything set to 5, with the odd 4 or 6 dotted about.


The most annoying thing I'm finding so far, the biggest oversight is that I simply have no idea how to see what formation or playing style the opposition will use. I simply don't understand it.

 

[Bravez]

There are aspects of FIFA which feel phoned in, rather than the result of a labour of love. I'm not talking about major pieces of work like CM or online, but little things that would just take a couple more days work each, and happen to be in PES (though not having passing inaccuracy is a far bigger mistake, no doubt).


Things like short corners - why does the taker just stand there in an offside position? They should either be running behind the receiver of the short corner (if they'd have taken an inswinger) or the receiver should be the one behind the passer (if it's an outswinger).

I'm on legacy defending, because tactical defending is way too passive when compared to real life football, and doesn't allow for the sort of pressing game that's been commonplace for years now. (I feel like FIFA tried to fix problems with pressing, but did it in a way which isn't true to the sport, and has produced its own problems.)

But, because it's taking a backseat to tactical defending, it's not had enough attention to be well balanced. It's still a case of charging at the attacker, with little option to time your tackle (which tactical gives you but loses an effective second press). PES definitely wins here, with the double tap of X or square to perform a standing tackle or perform a triple press.

There are also things like the dummy free kicks (there's a clear gap between player A stepping over and player B starting the run-up which kills any surprise) and CPU short corners / FKs (a player is running 40 yards to the taker? He's guaranteed to get the ball).

Too many teams seem to have default tactics sliders which are just around the 40-60 mark. If these sliders were out of 10, most teams would have everything set to 5, with the odd 4 or 6 dotted about.


The most annoying thing I'm finding so far, the biggest oversight is that I simply have no idea how to see what formation or playing style the opposition will use. I simply don't understand it.

Agree with all of this, too. Actually, possibly with the exception of the formations. I don't know how to check but I like adjusting my team based on how the game is panning out. Am i being overrun in midfield, do i need more width to find space etc. It's still a fault that it's not there tbf but doesn't bother me.

 

[Chris Davies]

Too many teams seem to have default tactics sliders which are just around the 40-60 mark. If these sliders were out of 10, most teams would have everything set to 5, with the odd 4 or 6 dotted about.

I know it's been mentioned before, but wouldn't it be great if someone came up with 10, or even 20, sets of "team sheets" and a spreadsheet of which team sheet to apply to which team?

I know the ones that are in the game are based on their community "scouts", if you like (the community guys who contribute information about their team), so... I wonder how accurate it would be to just accentuate the number for each slider?

So say Birmingham play possession football and their researcher has set their pass length to 40/100 (because he's been told to or EA have overwritten it so as not to highlight what they perceive as problems with the engine). That's -10 (taking 50 as the central point of 0). So if you double that and change it to 30/100 (or maybe even triple it and change it to 20/100), would that be accurate?

If we could come up with some sort of formula, it'd make a hell of a difference without having to mess with every player's individual attributes.

I'd be willing to do that individually for every team in the league I play in (so that they're much more varied), and then just apply those 10-20 team sheets to all the other teams.

Maybe we'll have to debate the easiest (and most accurate) way to put such a list together. I'd love to play in a League Two with teams that play like they're in League Two.

 

[mfmaxpower]

Agree with all of this, too. Actually, possibly with the exception of the formations. I don't know how to check but I like adjusting my team based on how the game is panning out. Am i being overrun in midfield, do i need more width to find space etc. It's still a fault that it's not there tbf but doesn't bother me.

I think his point is that you don't know what your up against pre-match, so tactical planning is essentially eliminated from the game.

They used to have some of this, at least in MM, but they removed it for some god-awful reason. Now the only way to even know anything about your opposition is to check their formations and lineup during the match, which is just lame.

I've gotten into the habit, at least when I care enough, to keep my laptop handy and scout my opponents on SoFIFA prior to matches.

 

[klashman69]

PES needs a new engine Chris?

I said time and time again the issue is RESPONSIVNESS. There arent any engine problems restricting you. Its the lack of response time in conjuction to the movement.

Thats why i was speaking about Pes 2013. The responsivness is toned down in the last 3 PES games since because they moved to a brand new engine.

This is because PES 2016 is still only utilizing the power of the PS3 on all consoles. The PS4 version is just a glossed PS3 game. I said 100 million times. look at the pc version and the specs for the gameplay. Says everything you need on Konami creating a base to use for 3 years with 2014 which was about maximising the most out of the PS3.

Id be worried if i was EA to see what they can do when they actually start to use the PS4 power next year as the 3 year cycle has ended with 2016. Konami have already started doing full body scans with Neymar which gives a hint there will be a very big upgrade to the game next year graphically and in gameplay.

What interests me is scholes and what chris say. It seems as if they want to play PES in a way they enjoy but the responsivness just wont let it happen.

 

[Placebo]

I know it's been mentioned before, but wouldn't it be great if someone came up with 10, or even 20, sets of "team sheets" and a spreadsheet of which team sheet to apply to which team?

When custom tactics first came in there were a couple of really good websites that shared them for most teams, unfortunately for some reason that really died off

Doing a bit of a google just now came across this one that's new to me: https://fifatactics.net/ but I can't find any of the older ones that had a team by team breakdown

 

[mfmaxpower]

I'm on legacy defending, because tactical defending is way too passive when compared to real life football, and doesn't allow for the sort of pressing game that's been commonplace for years now. (I feel like FIFA tried to fix problems with pressing, but did it in a way which isn't true to the sport, and has produced its own problems.)

But, because it's taking a backseat to tactical defending, it's not had enough attention to be well balanced. It's still a case of charging at the attacker, with little option to time your tackle (which tactical gives you but loses an effective second press). PES definitely wins here, with the double tap of X or square to perform a standing tackle or perform a triple press.

I don't want to come off as defending Tactical defending, but have you experimented much with using a combination of custom tactics, different formations, and the "team pressing" d-pad quick tactic?

'Cause I've gotten to the point now that I've been able to manipulate the three to apply pressure quite successfully at times and, especially against lesser opposition, I create a decent amount of turnovers in the CPU's side of the pitch. (I suck however at capitalizing on those turnovers!)

I agree - I much prefer PES's approach to defending. But I just can't help but feel like Legacy defending is such a dumbed down system, that relies more on the AI's ability to tackle for you rather than your own skill. Maybe I just haven't given it enough of a chance?

 

[Bravez]

PES needs a new engine?

I said time and time again the issue is RESPONSIVNESS. There arent any engine problems restricting you. Its the lack of response time in conjuction to the movement.

Thats why i was speaking about Pes 2013. The responsivness is toned down in the last 3 PES games since because they moved to a brand new engine.

This is because PES 2016 is still only utilizing the power of the PS3 on all consoles. The PS4 version is just a glossed PS3 game. I said 100 million times. look at the pc version and the specs for the gameplay. Says everything you need on Konami creating a base to use for 3 years with 2014 which was about maximising the most out of the PS3.

Id be worried if i was EA to see what they can do when they actually start to use the PS4 power next year as the 3 year cycle has ended with 2016. Konami have already started doing full body scans with Neymar which gives a hint there will be a very big upgrade to the game next year graphically and in gameplay.

I admire your positivity Klash, genuinely.

Like i said, i don't think it needs a new engine but it needs a lot of fixing.