FIFA/FC vs PES/eFootball

[Antoine]

Well, honestly, its 2018 and with all the technical advancements in football games and the power at their fingertips, no one can bring us the football title you would expect to see in this day and age.

First off, Pes, which has a lovely flow to it in the middle of the park but that is let down with shoddy attacking in the final third, keepers with restricted animations (earlier today i played three matches and scored two identikit goals, same shot, same keeper animations) limited licenses, but most of all, the most bland ai in a football game to date.

I mean c'mon, i've never seen such one dimensional a.i. We were told it was fixed but to me it plays exactly the same. How can you have a football game but no long shot efforts? Where is an a.i that will keep you challenged and on your toes without cheating? There was better a.i ten years ago!

Pes has lovely graphics, great player models and some nice lighting but its all let down by the above issues. I mean they've still got only 10 save slots ffs and a replay camera system that belongs in the dark ages.

A terrible disappointment.

Which brings me onto Fifa, which has the licences and the I have to say has the variety of play you expect from a football game, you really do get lots of spontaneous play that you would associate in football and that Pes lacks.

However...whoever designed the player models needs firing. They just don't look like athletes. They don't look like modern footballers. They have a hunched run, they have no real close control, they run with an awkward gait and their animations look out of sync.

Then you get the ball physics...ground passes act like bowling balls, theres no random bounces. Sometime i head the ball as a pass, and this is all on manual by the way, and the ball moves at 100mph! I mean ffs they had this in the previous versions so where has it gone?

And fouls? Where are they on BOTH games, Penalties are a fucking event.

Then they release about a million fucking patches, which has you constantly tweaking sliders, sliders by the way that they don't fucking describe to you and let you know what they do.

A terrible disappointment.

2019 has to be the year they ditch these games for multiplayer and start thinking about the single player crowd. Its dumbed down money making shite and it gets on my tits. Trying to turn these games into sports - well fuck me, I saw a fifa final the other week on youtube and both lads are playing on assisted controls - fucking assisted controls and they are supposed to be so called professionals at this sport game? I'd whoop them both on manual. Its a fucking joke.

Multiplayer is the worst fucking thing to hit consoles in the last few years. Theres this accepted stance that everyone naturally gravitates towards it and needs it, but i wouldn't waste my time with a bunch of people who just want to win at any cost. keep multiplayer for when you are round at your mates not for strangers giving you grief over the internet.

Both of these games have really let me down this year and I for one will definitely, DEFINITELY hold back on purchases of both titles next year.

 

[hitmanuk]

I've come to the conclusion that they are both pretty boring in different ways
Fifa has car more variation in animations etc but the ball mechanics and lack of fouls just spoil it. Put Pes ball in there and it would be brilliant
PES AI is just drab and one dimensional. Always looking and mostly succeeding when they need to win for the square pass backheel goal. Also user shooting just feels the same for most players/teams

Just results in 2 games or 30 mins then had enough

 

[koningfrikandel]

I've come to the conclusion that they are both pretty boring in different ways
Fifa has car more variation in animations etc but the ball mechanics and lack of fouls just spoil it. Put Pes ball in there and it would be brilliant
PES AI is just drab and one dimensional. Always looking and mostly succeeding when they need to win for the square pass backheel goal. Also user shooting just feels the same for most players/teams

Just results in 2 games or 30 mins then had enough

Good analysis, I concur. Either give fifa the pes ball or give pes the fifa variation or at the very least the variation that was in before all patches were in place. In hindsight they were on the right track but blew it.

 

[koningfrikandel]

also, it has been said many times but the level of cheating is just ridiculous. FIFA is more subtle at it (but it is still very much there) but PES is just so overt and non-apologetic about it that it's laughable. No matter if you're on professional , superstar or whatever the CPU WILL impose its will no matter what. I've had many occurences of my defenders straight being morphed / teleported out the way to give the CPU room to operate, my own CPU controlled players actually tackling me and fouls just mysteriously, suddenly, being "switched off" allowing to do the CPU to do whatever it wants. I'm also seeing the stumble animation (Remember PES 2011?) and a MASSIVE amounts of shots going wide on Basic shooting (remember PES 2012). It's like a who's who of past PES "bugs" - which are not bugs but conscious game design to impose an artificial sense of difficulty in a crude way - all rearing their head as well. I felt like a Buddhist putting up with this steaming pile of shit: "must remain calm, do NOT get angry at all cost".

It reminds me of the Michael Biehn interrogation scene in the first Terminator movie. "That's what he does. That's ALL he does. You can't stop him!". It's about the Terminator of course but might as well be about the almighty clairvoyant PES script.

As it is now, I see NO difference to PES18. I'm baffled as to how there are people that are experiencing something else (and more power to them of course). This PES is so different player to player, session to session even. Not good.

 

[koningfrikandel]

looking at the FIFA thread much is the same there though for different reasons. As in years past, the offline soul and playability has been removed from both games to appease to the online masses and dollars that they bring. This has been happening for years and will continue, no doubt. Just give us offline players the possibilty to roll back to earlier versions = problems solved. Of course there is no money to be made there so zero chance it will happen.

I've given up on PES yet again until perhaps a new patch is released. The scripting and removal of everything that matters is driving me nuts. New patch should be coming with the SPL update imminent (or is it?) Will try my hand at FIFA to satisfy my footy gaming need as I had an ongoing career mode there as well but not holding my breath.

 

[hitmanuk]

I really enjoyed pes after 1st patch but it's dire now. Same AI attacking styles end to end and limited shots and goals Fifa is really good against the AI with sliders but the lack of fouls really grates me. Hopefully next patch will sort it somewhat

 

[Chris Davies]

How is it FIFA has no fouls, yet players get injured (which leads to actually having to manage your squad) - yet PES has loads of fouls but no injuries? How?

I've come to the decision after hammering the two over the last week or so with friends, that I can't play FIFA any more. FIFA would be the better game by far (controlling a player feels like controlling something organic, not a robot on rails), if:

It wasn't so fast
(Altering sliders doesn't fix this "properly" because players can still ping the ball around in a frankly stupid, pinball-like manner - particularly AI players, who are psychic)

Physics (not just ball physics) were better
(The ball acceleration is bizarre, and the extreme power on 30-yard headers is absolutely laughable, but players' bodies consistently do weird things too, like a striker's leg passing through his standing leg to shoot)

CPU-team AI was much better
(The AI is just garbage - on World Class+ it's only interested in smashing the ball to the furthest forward player, every time, and then retreating to allow you to run at them - every game is like a basketball game)

PES does all of that stuff better, and playing the AI is much more enjoyable as a result. It's slower, the physics make sense, and for all FIFA's talk about teams having their own "real tactics", they don't really mean anything given how "fast and forgiving" the gameplay is.

PES's AI feels more human to play against, and I still think this is because FIFA is more "free" (movement), which just gives the AI too many variables to process and so it simplifies everything to "smash ball forward" in an attempt to provide a challenge.

But for PES gameplay to really blast FIFA out of the water, I just wish:

Ball contact (and behaviour) was less perfect/rigid
Every pass and shot is hit with perfect contact - the passing only misses its target (with default passing assist) if it's intercepted or goes out of play, and every shot is blasted. There is nothing in-between.

The same applies to saves - you'll never see a goal where the goalkeeper just fumbles a shot to the side and it bounces under him. It's pushed out to the corner flag or held onto.

No more impossible-to-stop goals from first-time-passing sessions from the AI
For as long as the game allows it (because of the above issue) I don't think the AI will stop doing it. But you can very genuinely see an unstoppable AI goal coming by how they'll suddenly put their passing into overdrive, pinging first-time passes together around the edge of the box, then into the box, first-time shot, goal.

(Some would call it scripting.)

Player attributes should mean more (to human and AI players) - where is player ID?
This is one area where I think FIFA has really started getting it right. In PES, every player you control passes with the same accuracy, and shoots with the same accuracy. I spend all my budget on wing-backs from Barcelona and Real Madrid, and they're the same as my below-average-OVR players.

When the AI controls a player, their real-world tendencies don't change how they play in the game. Fast dribbling wingers just pass/cross as soon as they can. Players rarely dribble.

...

At the end of the day, they've both got major problems - but for me playing against the AI, FIFA's AI is just horrible to play against now. The rest of the game could be brilliant, but if the AI plays like a ten-year-old... It doesn't matter.

 

[koningfrikandel]

How is it FIFA has no fouls, yet players get injured (which leads to actually having to manage your squad) - yet PES has loads of fouls but no injuries? How?

I've come to the decision after hammering the two over the last week or so with friends, that I can't play FIFA any more. FIFA would be the better game by far (controlling a player feels like controlling something organic, not a robot on rails), if:

It wasn't so fast
(Altering sliders doesn't fix this "properly" because players can still ping the ball around in a frankly stupid, pinball-like manner - particularly AI players, who are psychic)

Physics (not just ball physics) were better
(The ball acceleration is bizarre, and the extreme power on 30-yard headers is absolutely laughable, but players' bodies consistently do weird things too, like a striker's leg passing through his standing leg to shoot)

CPU-team AI was much better
(The AI is just garbage - on World Class+ it's only interested in smashing the ball to the furthest forward player, every time, and then retreating to allow you to run at them - every game is like a basketball game)

PES does all of that stuff better, and playing the AI is much more enjoyable as a result. It's slower, the physics make sense, and for all FIFA's talk about teams having their own "real tactics", they don't really mean anything given how "fast and forgiving" the gameplay is.

PES's AI feels more human to play against, and I still think this is because FIFA is more "free" (movement), which just gives the AI too many variables to process and so it simplifies everything to "smash ball forward" in an attempt to provide a challenge.

But for PES gameplay to really blast FIFA out of the water, I just wish:

Ball contact (and behaviour) was less perfect/rigid
Every pass and shot is hit with perfect contact - the passing only misses its target (with default passing assist) if it's intercepted or goes out of play, and every shot is blasted. There is nothing in-between.

The same applies to saves - you'll never see a goal where the goalkeeper just fumbles a shot to the side and it bounces under him. It's pushed out to the corner flag or held onto.

No more impossible-to-stop goals from first-time-passing sessions from the AI
For as long as the game allows it (because of the above issue) I don't think the AI will stop doing it. But you can very genuinely see an unstoppable AI goal coming by how they'll suddenly put their passing into overdrive, pinging first-time passes together around the edge of the box, then into the box, first-time shot, goal.

(Some would call it scripting.)

Player attributes should mean more (to human and AI players) - where is player ID?
This is one area where I think FIFA has really started getting it right. In PES, every player you control passes with the same accuracy, and shoots with the same accuracy. I spend all my budget on wing-backs from Barcelona and Real Madrid, and they're the same as my below-average-OVR players.

When the AI controls a player, their real-world tendencies don't change how they play in the game. Fast dribbling wingers just pass/cross as soon as they can. Players rarely dribble.

...

At the end of the day, they've both got major problems - but for me playing against the AI, FIFA's AI is just horrible to play against now. The rest of the game could be brilliant, but if the AI plays like a ten-year-old... It doesn't matter.

Very good write up Chris. I have to disagree with player individuality though in PES, in my view that is definitely present. Pre-patch it was better but it's still there. I can notice immediately whether I'm controlling Tagliafico or Abate at LB. For me the issues with this start arising when you get over a certain value with OPR. After that most everyone feels the same bar player skills. I would say 86 OPR and above roughly. Part of the reason the early seasons are usually the most enjoyable in ML.

 

[hitmanuk]

I felt the same as you but the sliders i use address most of what i disliked - PES ID is there but its so limited because of the one dimensional AI attacking patterns. You will never see the likes of Salah or whoever shoot from distance because the AI is programmed no to in 99% of circumstances. Then there is the lack of shot animations which will also affect the ID as many of the shots are the same. Fouls in PES are better than last year but still to few and next to no penalties , i have had more pens in FIFA than in PES.
And then there is the amount of space in PES which is just ridiculous and that what makes every game feel similar and end to end. FIFA can address this as much or as little as you like by knocking up/down the line length so the AI presses further up the pitch.
I liked PES after first patch but it's just stale now, every game im waiting for the AI who need to score to square pass, back heel goal. And then i turn it off.

 

[rockstrongo]

I'd say that PES 19 could be a much better game than FIFA 19.
Right now it isn't.
I'm having more fun playing FIFA 19 than Pes 19.
But having more fun doesn't equal a good game.
Both games lacks so much in how a game of football should be portrayed.

FIFA with its no fouls/no penalties/rubbish AI

Pes with it's one dimensional ai/shooting/scripting.
Right now I'm enjoying FIFA more,but when Pes clicks it's so much better than FIFA.
Sum it all up,they're both really bad,has it's glimpses of good gameplay.

I play a few other sports games,and the difference between 2k/NHL in how they represent their sport Vs Fifa/Pes is miles ahead.
I don't expect much from Pes nowadays,they always find a way to screw up what is good with their games,very frustrating!
FIFA is probably the game that makes me the most angry.
All the resources,all the licences,and they still treat it's game like this.
They don't have to create a deep and good gameplay anymore,as long as the micro transactions are making them profit.

I wonder what's worse,a company pretty much with their head in the sand,or a company being active on social platforms,listening to their costumers but don't act on it.

 

[Chris Davies]

I play a few other sports games,and the difference between 2k/NHL in how they represent their sport Vs Fifa/Pes is miles ahead.

Always said this about NHL - my frustration there is that NHL has an unbelievable array of sliders and manager mode options (you can have up to 30 scouts now and search for the exact kind of player you need)... yet none of this ports over to FIFA.

It's like EA goes "NHL = offline gamers, FIFA = online gamers", but why? They've both got Ultimate Team and microtransactions...

This is page one of eight of the sliders in NHL (they get six speed settings):

I would argue team strategies are more in-depth (and do more) too:

Just bought NHL 19 after giving up with FIFA's horrible AI and I'm loving it, got to say. Maybe just because I don't know enough about the players to critique their behaviour, but I've always loved hockey...

 

[rockstrongo]

Always said this about NHL - my frustration there is that NHL has an unbelievable array of sliders and manager mode options (you can have up to 30 scouts now and search for the exact kind of player you need)... yet none of this ports over to FIFA.

It's like EA goes "NHL = offline gamers, FIFA = online gamers", but why? They've both got Ultimate Team and microtransactions...

This is page one of eight of the sliders in NHL (they get six speed settings):

I would argue team strategies are more in-depth (and do more) too:

Just bought NHL 19 after giving up with FIFA's horrible AI and I'm loving it, got to say. Maybe just because I don't know enough about the players to critique their behaviour, but I've always loved hockey...

Are Birkenhead/Liverpool area getting a 32nd franchise?

Couldn't agree more with you Chris on NHL,especially this year with updated skating,all other NHL games feels clunky Vs 19.

It took me roughly a whole season to fine tune the sliders,I always start with gamespeed+shots equally+passing % + penalties equally,then go from there

Hope you bought it for xbox,think it's dirt cheap,mine cost me € 25 a month ago roughly.

Options are amazing here,plus they have all the stats correct for cpu teams/players,good teams being dominant in standings etc.

Yeah,they have HUT,but I think EASHL is the most popular online game mode,you controlling one player in a all human team Vs other human teams.
Upgrades are rewarded by playing not paying.
They also have 1s and 3s,were you play Vs other users on a smaller rink,and upgrades the same way
I'm very sold on this game,and I've played NHL since it first was released in --94 (on and off though)
Wish they could go back to the old "controll all teams" in franschise

I think both FIFA and PES could learn a lot from this franchise!

 

[Chris Davies]

I think both FIFA and PES could learn a lot from this franchise!

The fact is, they - well, FIFA - don't need to.

Given how astonishingly in-depth NHL is (one of the sliders is "attribute importance" for God's sake, IMAGINE that in a football game)... They clearly have the knowledge to do it - they have the damn code to do it.

So they know how to make a simulation for offline players (and how to give them the tools to tailor their experience between "painful realism" and "fun realism") - yet not for FIFA.

Because FIFA sells enough copies (and enough virtual dollars). The need for them to include this stuff in their development schedule doesn't exist (from a financial standpoint), whereas at some point, it did for NHL.

I still spend every day dreaming of quitting this job and getting a Kickstarter going, to fund a small office somewhere, a producer who shares this vision and a team of developers who can put together a realistic football game with a realistic career mode...

 

[rockstrongo]

The fact is, they - well, FIFA - don't need to.

Given how astonishingly in-depth NHL is (one of the sliders is "attribute importance" for God's sake, IMAGINE that in a football game)... They clearly have the knowledge to do it - they have the damn code to do it.

So they know how to make a simulation for offline players (and how to give them the tools to tailor their experience between "painful realism" and "fun realism") - yet not for FIFA.

Because FIFA sells enough copies (and enough virtual dollars). The need for them to include this stuff in their development schedule doesn't exist (from a financial standpoint), whereas at some point, it did for NHL.

I still spend every day dreaming of quitting this job and getting a Kickstarter going, to fund a small office somewhere, a producer who shares this vision and a team of developers who can put together a realistic football game with a realistic career mode...

And that slider "Attributes effect" going from 0-10 is probably the most important one,I have mine at 9/10 or 10/10 and the really good players shine,great slider.
And aggressiveness,also a slider needed for FIFA for sure.

I'd settle for being "visionary consultant" or "keeping the fans real up in the stands" consultant for that project.
Just wished we had more options for our games Chris,being able to make it into what we want,like you said,anything from "fun realism to ultra realistic"
I mean an option to get the game into what we want shouldn't/couldn't collide with the Myclub/FUT crowd?
They have the vanilla setup for online leagues,we have our sim setup for offline.

 

[Chris Davies]

I tweeted about the NHL sliders to the FIFA community guys (@EACoreySA and @EA_GZaro) - @EA_GZaro "liked" the tweet, but I didn't get a response.

 

[Lons]

I prefer play Fifa 19 seasons than Pes 2019 devisions. In Fifa 19 keepers has much better AI. Golies looks more realistic. Pes feels too stiff compere to Fifa. In this moment Fifa 19>Pes 2019.

 

[koningfrikandel]

both games are currently really, really bad offline, single player. after extensive play it seems there are at the moment no redeeming qualities in either game. against better judgement i gave FIFA a go and after just 2 matches on career mode it's so mind-numbingly boring with wonky ball physics and no-fouls. against even better judgement i tried PES which is definitely the more maddening of the two. IF it lets you play, IMO, FIFA does not come close on the pitch. THe feel of it all, from 40 yard scorchers to just a simple pass is unequalled. But that is a big IF and nowadays it never "lets" me play for even one match. Not one. All i get is passages of play that are good and then it goes to absolute fucking dog shit in a hurry without exception. I've never played a game that actually makes me want to punch the producer of it square in the face. Exaggerating for effect of course but you get the gist. it is such a frustrating experience.

It especially rears its head in those damned rivals matches. Who could have possibly thought this perversion of football would be a good idea?! Played a match as Ajax against PSV. I just knew it was going to be shit beforehand but gave it a go anyway (WHY do I keep doing this). Script against me from the off, i KNEW i was going to concede no matter what. Of course this happens after some time by virtue of absolute bullshit. I get 2 back in quick succession, great. Play my opponent off the pitch and keep the ball at their end by careful positioning and usage of tactics. Doesn't matter: 91st minute they get the equaliser by indescribable bullshit. Romario who is 5 foot, if that, and weighs nothing shook off Virgil van Dijk, Frenkie de Jong and Fosu-Mensah like they weren't even there. Boom unstoppable solo, of course that blasted top corner rocket, (yawn) goal. Kick off for me, players sluggish, script activated. Boom dispossessed, zack zack zoom a gazillion ice hockey passes in quick succession, top corner goal (boring). I lose 3-2. I'm not a controller thrower but I came too close for comfort let me tell ya.

I need a quality non-football game as this isn't cutting it and at the moment I have no hope of this changing for the better. Dire times for the footy gaming fan...

 

[rockstrongo]

both games are currently really, really bad offline, single player. after extensive play it seems there are at the moment no redeeming qualities in either game. against better judgement i gave FIFA a go and after just 2 matches on career mode it's so mind-numbingly boring with wonky ball physics and no-fouls. against even better judgement i tried PES which is definitely the more maddening of the two. IF it lets you play, IMO, FIFA does not come close on the pitch. THe feel of it all, from 40 yard scorchers to just a simple pass is unequalled. But that is a big IF and nowadays it never "lets" me play for even one match. Not one. All i get is passages of play that are good and then it goes to absolute fucking dog shit in a hurry without exception. I've never played a game that actually makes me want to punch the producer of it square in the face. Exaggerating for effect of course but you get the gist. it is such a frustrating experience.

It especially rears its head in those damned rivals matches. Who could have possibly thought this perversion of football would be a good idea?! Played a match as Ajax against PSV. I just knew it was going to be shit beforehand but gave it a go anyway (WHY do I keep doing this). Script against me from the off, i KNEW i was going to concede no matter what. Of course this happens after some time by virtue of absolute bullshit. I get 2 back in quick succession, great. Play my opponent off the pitch and keep the ball at their end by careful positioning and usage of tactics. Doesn't matter: 91st minute they get the equaliser by indescribable bullshit. Romario who is 5 foot, if that, and weighs nothing shook off Virgil van Dijk, Frenkie de Jong and Fosu-Mensah like they weren't even there. Boom unstoppable solo, of course that blasted top corner rocket, (yawn) goal. Kick off for me, players sluggish, script activated. Boom dispossessed, zack zack zoom a gazillion ice hockey passes in quick succession, top corner goal (boring). I lose 3-2. I'm not a controller thrower but I came too close for comfort let me tell ya.

I need a quality non-football game as this isn't cutting it and at the moment I have no hope of this changing for the better. Dire times for the footy gaming fan...

Well put mate.
I get bored out of my mind playing FIFA,Pes makes me a raging lunatic,when it plays well,I still love it,but that's 2-3/5 games roughly.
The rest of them is trying to put together two magnets with opposite polarity,thats how defending feels in that game.
If you like hockey/Basketball,then you'll have those to choose from,I'm not a PS4 player,but most people rave about MLB the show.
Or do what I usually do when Pes/FIFA fails,play the older titles

 

[koningfrikandel]

Well put mate.
I get bored out of my mind playing FIFA,Pes makes me a raging lunatic,when it plays well,I still love it,but that's 2-3/5 games roughly.
The rest of them is trying to put together two magnets with opposite polarity,thats how defending feels in that game.
If you like hockey/Basketball,then you'll have those to choose from,I'm not a PS4 player,but most people rave about MLB the show.
Or do what I usually do when Pes/FIFA fails,play the older titles

Haha I like that, "raging lunatic", that is exactly how I feel whilst playing pes. The magnets description is very fitting as well, as that is exactly how it feels. @Hels has released a dt18 file on PC that almost removes this but you can tell the game is not designed to work this way as player switching and the ball then go all over the place.

Playing older titles is a good shout, I'm on pc so could emulate quite easily. Just so disappointing that even with all the great fan made mods on pc, pes 2019 STILL is, once you get to a certain point in ML, completely unplayable.

 

[Chris Davies]

I keep switching between the two, and it's so frustrating. When I'm on the ball in FIFA I feel like "how could I play stiff, on-rails PES after this" - then the AI get the ball (on World Class or above) and they play a different sport to me.

They move the ball around like kids with no idea what "build-up" means, like the ball is on fire and they have to get rid of it as soon as they've got it (and despite this, it's too easy because of how passive they are in defence).

It looks ridiculous, it's nothing close to football. FIFA is its own eSport now, like Rocket League - and sliders help but because the foundations are so anti-simulation (and the sliders are so limited), you can't make it realistic.

So I switch to PES, and immediately from kick-off the speed of the game is as comforting as a warm blanket*. "This is what football feels like."

Then I pass to a player who just "locks up" in possession. The freedom of movement from FIFA isn't there, and I have to watch as he receives the ball and can only move in huge unwieldy turns/strides, straight into the onrushing defender.

Last night I hit a through-ball to a midfielder who was running through towards goal (he was well away from the opposition DMs), the ball was ahead of him, he touched it and then just stopped, for half a second, for no reason (there was no reason to "control" the ball, I was pushing sprint / towards the goal). At that point, I tried to get him running again but of course, he's immediately smashed by one of the opponents.

Then I hit a manual shot with a defender as a bit of space opens up and it just flies into the bottom corner from 30 yards out, and I realise it's the exact same goal I've scored in the last three games straight with different players. Because all the shots are the same.

*I have PES on PS4 for option files etc. but downloaded it on the Xbox through Game Pass the other day (because why not), and WOW is the speed different. Normal speed on PS4 is fine for me, normal speed on Xbox is way too fast. It's like +1/+2!

 

[koningfrikandel]

I keep switching between the two, and it's so frustrating. When I'm on the ball in FIFA I feel like "how could I play stiff, on-rails PES after this" - then the AI get the ball (on World Class or above) and they play a different sport to me.

They move the ball around like kids with no idea what "build-up" means, like the ball is on fire and they have to get rid of it as soon as they've got it (and despite this, it's too easy because of how passive they are in defence).

It looks ridiculous, it's nothing close to football. FIFA is its own eSport now, like Rocket League - and sliders help but because the foundations are so anti-simulation (and the sliders are so limited), you can't make it realistic.

So I switch to PES, and immediately from kick-off the speed of the game is as comforting as a warm blanket*. "This is what football feels like."

Then I pass to a player who just "locks up" in possession. The freedom of movement from FIFA isn't there, and I have to watch as he receives the ball and can only move in huge unwieldy turns/strides, straight into the onrushing defender.

Last night I hit a through-ball to a midfielder who was running through towards goal (he was well away from the opposition DMs), the ball was ahead of him, he touched it and then just stopped, for half a second, for no reason (there was no reason to "control" the ball, I was pushing sprint / towards the goal). At that point, I tried to get him running again but of course, he's immediately smashed by one of the opponents.

Then I hit a manual shot with a defender as a bit of space opens up and it just flies into the bottom corner from 30 yards out, and I realise it's the exact same goal I've scored in the last three games straight with different players. Because all the shots are the same.

*I have PES on PS4 for option files etc. but downloaded it on the Xbox through Game Pass the other day (because why not), and WOW is the speed different. Normal speed on PS4 is fine for me, normal speed on Xbox is way too fast. It's like +1/+2!

Well put Chris. I'm the same in switching constantly. Surely this is not good for the overall experience but committing to either is even harder as they are both so lacking. Maddening.

 

[rockstrongo]

Haha I like that, "raging lunatic", that is exactly how I feel whilst playing pes. The magnets description is very fitting as well, as that is exactly how it feels. @Hels has released a dt18 file on PC that almost removes this but you can tell the game is not designed to work this way as player switching and the ball then go all over the place.

Playing older titles is a good shout, I'm on pc so could emulate quite easily. Just so disappointing that even with all the great fan made mods on pc, pes 2019 STILL is, once you get to a certain point in ML, completely unplayable.

Got myself a PS2 a while back,and I also bought a PS3 a few years ago,just to be able to play older titles.
Even though I prefer my modern console,it's so rewarding playing older games,better produced,better gameplay etc.

 

[Lons]

One day i play FIFA and second day Pes. Fifa feels more freedom. No doubt. Keepers AI in Pes kill me. In FIFA keepers AI is logic. Play both games...I'm not impressed play FIFA AND PES as well. I bought new 4K UHD TV SONY XF9005 for new generation of consoles. Waiting for PS5 and new football games.

 

[Madmac79]

Save from miracles, this will be my final take on this year, I guess.

I'll start by saying that at this point I have less than 60 hours combined between both the games, and no will at all to play them.. and this should speak for itself. Every time I try to pick them up again, there is always some big flaw that sets me back.

I'm of the opinion that both games have good elements.. and both games would probably shine if developers had the right focus.

But as of now.. forget it. Among it all, I can't play a game that literally have an AI inferior and less varied than titles 10 or even more years older.. and this holds for Fifa and for Pes.

Fifa was promising but I don't know what happened after the first patches. In the beginning, I easily remember dribblers shining and the such, today it's that tiki taka direct bullshit again. And, of course, no fouls, no aggressive CPU. To think this game is all about the Premier League, with the stadiums, the accuracy and all the rest.. yet you step on the field and it's all bland and calm. Sigh.

Pes.. not better at all. There are fouls and there is aggression to some degree, at least this, but no CPU that tries to play real football either and a general feel of no-freedom Chris nailed well above. I also give it a bit of a try to the latest patch and it seems they locked the CPU keeper again.. am I wrong? Would be so idiotic.

Anyway, no physics, nor nice single features can make up for the above, to me. There are many other flaws but I can't stand a game that in first place doesn't try to emulate reality, as far as possible, of course. Why would I want to go and play a ML or a career? There is no thrill, no variety, no "let's see what happens next" feeling, at least for me.
Hope they'll be able to turn it on again in the future but if the focus doesn't switch, I'm really doubtful at this point.

 

[Chris Davies]

There are many other flaws but I can't stand a game that in first place doesn't try to emulate reality, as far as possible, of course. Why would I want to go and play a ML or a career? There is no thrill, no variety, no "let's see what happens next" feeling, at least for me.

The one plus point I'll give PES's ML (because everything else is a giant negative, from the stupid transfer system and pathetic player values, to how little there is to do outside of the matches themselves)...

When the "Team Spirit" starts going up and your players start gelling, you can see the little signs of it and it's deeper than I gave it credit for (it's not just the traditional gaming thing of "his attributes are better so he can pass better now", it's that certain players link up better, which is amazing to me).

As part of the ML, players have more than standard attributes. They have a page of their tactical familiarity (whether they prefer to play centrally or take the ball out wide, for example) and a page of personality traits. I can't find a screenshot of the former (which is more interesting) but this is what the personality stuff looks like:

Honestly? Up until a month ago I'd never really gone past the "attributes" page of a player's profile before. But it adds so much of that "what happens next" feeling you talk about, to have to retrain players to get them to play how you like to play. FIFA doesn't have anything like that (and in a test career mode game, I purposefully lost five games in a row, only for the game to award all of my players with positive form arrows)...

The downside is that A) having a low TS blatantly boosts the AI and lags your input like you're playing someone on the other side of the planet, which destroys the point of trying to create authenticity, and B) literally everything else (including the stiff gameplay) lets it down.

Playing as one of the Premier League's worst teams, I was recommended some of Real Madrid's best players by my scout on day one, all of whom are eager to join me for next-to-nothing. Why build and mould your original squad when you can just buy the best players and mould them instead.

As for FIFA...

Playing NHL 19's career mode has absolutely disgusted me, in terms of how clear and obvious it is that they give a fuck about NHL, and don't give a fuck about FIFA. NHL's career mode is unbelievably complex.

Forget the NINE PAGES of sliders (I previously thought it was eight) - including a "player attribute importance" slider (hallelujah) - and SIX game speed settings... You've got something to do all the time. Meetings with the chairman. Meetings with players. Meetings with others. You've got a "fan approval" rating, and a chairman morale rating to go alongside your overall player morale rating.

You've got a team of scouts who give you a "current ability" and "potential ability" score for the players they find (like Football Manager), along with a "how certain I am" level (low, medium, high certainty). Half of the stuff you can do I don't even understand.

There's all kinds of non-management stuff too, that I'm not keen on but I know others would love (merchandise pricing, stadium upgrades - you can make your own damn mascot).

I still think PES's "players can only play well together if they learn to play your way" features are more important, from a gameplay perspective - but all of this stuff would be great to have.

It's really gut-punching to see how lucky other sports fans are.

 

[Madmac79]

I see what you say Chris, but I was talking more about the gameplay itself. It seems to me that the feel of the matches are samey from game to game. This, always for the subpar AI.

I haven't delve deep in the TS system and I believe you if you say it's deep. Bu as you already said, it hardly makes up for monstrousities like small teams buying superstars and the such..

 

[koningfrikandel]

Chris, the affinity things work as well. Hard to explain but for instance I had Tammy Abraham at Liverpool and he "understood" the team instructions much better and was actually backtracking when he should, etcetera. Higher rated Alvaro Negredo was more potent on the ball but did not follow instructions. Later on I played AGAINST Abraham while he was in another team (Vitesse) and behaved differently. Pretty impressive but Konami does not explain or tout these features at all. Baffling.

 

[Hels]

My opinion about FIFA vs PES. FIFA has better functionality in many terms, but specially career. About player control, I am not sure, since I haven't played FIFA 19, but on FIFA 18 it was horrible. I think PES allows for much more precise movements and pace changes.

At the momment, IMO, the problem in PES is AI. AI is fucking op. They defend you as gods and never fail. Whatever dribbling you try to, be it with simple control + change of pace or be it with right stick dribbling, the AI will predict it 100% sure. They will predict passes, they will predict everything. On the other side, they will never fail a pass. Now, this makes you play, yes or yes, in automatic mode, cause there's just no way you can play on manual mode since sooner or later you will make a bad pass and AI WON'T MAKE ONE. And I am not meaning a pass without sense. That's precissely the problem that the AI has. A lot of times I see AI doing passes or shootings without sense. But when they do a pass with sense, they do it SO FUCKING PRECISSELY that you can't do a fucking thing to avoid it. The only thing where there's a little bit of spice and room here is in shooting. They will sometimes make a realistic bad shoot. Like shooting and the ball going over the goal, specially with @incas36 dt's. This man here has made a lot for the game in terms of speed, building up, etc. The problem is that whenever the COM decides to make direct play, they will make a perfect lob pass or through pass that fucks your defense, that of course won't be in it's possition. Now if this happened once or twice in a 90 minute match, or even more times, but not each 3 minutes, this would be a good point. The problem is that your defense is always out of the place, and AI defense is perfectly positioned.

I just started fucking around with traps.o values in dt18 constant_player.bin only to find that there's a couple of values that actually boost somehow the player control, but I don't have still clear which one. Now, look how flawled the game is that the COM will never do a bad control, and when I saw that after a few tweaks, COM would make bad controls indeed, I thought I had removed somewhat scripting. The truth was that I had managed to find some value that was dealing with ball control for both AI and player, but the difference was so big that it was way more noticeable at first glance in CPU, simply because 99% controls in the game by CPU are fucking perfect, doesn't mind how strong that pass is, and in the other hand, passes tend to be so fucking perfect that they will always reach their objective while your defenders stare at it.

Is just... all bad. your players are dumbass and AI players are gods on earth. And when you manage to score a goal, script kicks in and enemy players are just even better. Is not only that they press more and harder. Is just that their stats are altered and they are buffed to death and you are nerfed to death. And this is killing off-line PES. Dunno if this happens with FIFA, since FIFA doesn't even care about off-line modes, to be honest, but it does happen in PES and is destroying the game. And this even turns worse with the horrible Team Spirit feature, something that should be fiddling with your players positioning making it be unprecise, but that actually make your players have fucking 0 reaction. And I could be ok with this if you could work it around somehow, the problem is that you can't cause enemy team won't have flaws. You can't almost take advantage in any flaws cause AI playing perfect. So much perfect that when you fiddle with certain random values and they start making bad, somewhat realistic controls (not always) it seems to you that you have destroyed scripting, but is just that you broke the game, and it feels somewhat more realistic. Simply stupid. I need a good football game and I need it now. We actually need another competitor here willing to do things right. Cause PES was called to be that competitor, and had the tools, actually, but they didn't want to give us a good game, with a good AI, but instead making on-line a money maker machine very much in lane with what EA did with FIFA, and worked for them.

Now, Konami doesn't seem to see that his audience is not the same of FIFA neither they should be competing for the same audience. They should be trying to do a football simulator, they didn't try to, and honestly, I won't buy any of the 2 the next year. I gave my oportunities, and I have lost faith in football games. I'd rather buy NBA 2k that will work quite better and provide me with a much better experience. At least I won't have the feeling of being throwing my money away.

 

[Chris Davies]

I see what you say Chris, but I was talking more about the gameplay itself. It seems to me that the feel of the matches are samey from game to game. This, always for the subpar AI.

I haven't delve deep in the TS system and I believe you if you say it's deep. Bu as you already said, it hardly makes up for monstrousities like small teams buying superstars and the such..

I agree with you entirely, the gameplay is so stiff and inorganic that it renders everything else a bit pointless.

That being said, I couldn't find screenshots of what I was talking about before, so I've just taken my own:

Chris, the affinity things work as well. Hard to explain but for instance I had Tammy Abraham at Liverpool and he "understood" the team instructions much better and was actually backtracking when he should, etcetera. Higher rated Alvaro Negredo was more potent on the ball but did not follow instructions. Later on I played AGAINST Abraham while he was in another team (Vitesse) and behaved differently. Pretty impressive but Konami does not explain or tout these features at all. Baffling.

I'm only just seeing this stuff and it's pretty amazing, when you see the evidence of it working. I'd almost call it next-gen, the kind of stuff I've been waiting for from football games - yet the gameplay just isn't quite there for me, as @Madmac79 says.

Any idea what "impact" means?

 

[koningfrikandel]

I agree with you entirely, the gameplay is so stiff and inorganic that it renders everything else a bit pointless.

That being said, I couldn't find screenshots of what I was talking about before, so I've just taken my own:

I'm only just seeing this stuff and it's pretty amazing, when you see the evidence of it working. I'd almost call it next-gen, the kind of stuff I've been waiting for from football games - yet the gameplay just isn't quite there for me, as @Madmac79 says.

Any idea what "impact" means?

Dunno yet but I have noticed that if you remove a player with high impact that has lower stats for one with higher stats and lower impact that the former will perform better. However this is hard to test as there are so many variables in form, arrows, scripting and the like. However I do agree that there is some clever stuff under the hood. Which is how PES has always been, shame Konami has chosen to sweep this under the rug and just deliver a shit game. Or make the game turn to shit after it's been pretty good overall.