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FIFA/FC vs PES/eFootball

P34SEMM said:
Matt has a new set of slider tweaks out and ill try them tonight. Hopefully he will eventually get to a point where the game is playable.
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As I said in the FIFA thread Sliders are all well and good for "Offline" Game Modes BUT they don't do a thing to Online which is where I spend a good percentage of my time with any Game these days.
 
My feelings on both games currently:

- FIFA dresses itself up as some epic novel (promises of great depth in gameplay and engaging career mode) but is in fact a sticker book (FUT)

- PES looks like a throwaway comic book, but is in fact a brilliant graphic novel
 
chiefrocka4real said:
Then variety in physics. What physics? I only can speak about FIFA 16 as I haven´t played 17 enough, but I doubt it´s so different, but the variety of ball physics in FIFA 16 has blown me away for one year.
It created situations after months and uncountable hours of gaming, which I haven´t seen before.
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That's what I was saying (unless I'm misunderstanding you)! :) There's an improvement in this area in PES this year, but it's blown away by what FIFA does. Even though the ball has fits of behaving erratically (which I never felt with 16), there's an unpredictability that is always present. That creates passes that feel less on-rails and moments that feel more organic. That for me is one of the biggest things that's still missing from PES, and it leads to a feeling of "this isn't a next-gen game" for me. Even though I prefer the game...

I disagree on pass error though. FIFA has an assisted passing system that includes pass error, in an attempt to stop every pass looking the same (just like the physics) and stop always-perfect passing, even though it's assisted. That should be applauded, not disregarded - if they're going to include an assisted passing setting, then why not try to keep the essence of the idea (allowing you to hit the passes the real player could make), whilst still including organic elements, and not making it too robotic.

(My preference is that "assisted" was removed and that the only choice for passing was "semi" or "manual", but with that not being the case, I'm happy all their systems include pass error - for purposes of variation and realism.)

I've just played a couple of PES games on my lunch hour, on PA0, as Hull against Liverpool and then West Ham. Maybe 80% of my passes were what I expected and 20% were just terrible. The AI opposition, however - and I lowered the difficulty to Professional - had perfect passing, perfect shooting, perfect everything. I absolutely do not accept that PA0 is the answer to everything - at least, not while the AI plays like it's using PA3. If it didn't, I might agree.
 
Yeah makes sense Chris.

Chris Davies said:
I've just played a couple of PES games on my lunch hour, on PA0, as Hull against Liverpool and then West Ham. Maybe 80% of my passes were what I expected and 20% were just terrible. The AI opposition, however - and I lowered the difficulty to Professional - had perfect passing, perfect shooting, perfect everything. I absolutely do not accept that PA0 is the answer to everything - at least, not while the AI plays like it's using PA3. If it didn't, I might agree.
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The difference between us probably is then that I pay more attention to my playing style instead of the AI´s.
At least when it comes to passing.
Or let me say it in a different way: The variation in the attacks of the AI is covering their pass accuracy for me.
If the AI would have the same goals (low shot corner crap like last year) then yeah, it would bug me, but the goal variation from the AI and the variation in attacks is enough for me, to enjoy manual passing.
I can´t stand it pressing the X button while holding the stick slightly to the direction of the player and every pass rolls directly to his feet and he doesn´t even have to take a step to receive it.
That totally puts me off.
That´s where FIFA looks better to me on assisted passing because there you see the receiving players are sometimes taking a sidestep or front step to get the ball.
PES was good on that earlier but since 2015 they are coming up with that laser guided passes and only PH0 makes me enjoy it.
 
An example of what my games are generally like when using PA0 in ML at Superstar difficulty. Stats taken from a game I played last night:

Possession 55/45 in favour of me

68% pass completion from me, 71% from the AI

32 interceptions by me, and 28 by the AI

7 crosses for me, 7 for the AI

4 shots on target: 1 by me and 3 by the AI. I had three shots the entire game.

The rule not the exception I am finding. I am using basic shooting too and I absolutely feel like the AI plays a similar game when I go to manual passing. That game in which I took those stats from was one of the most engaging games of football I have ever played in 35 years football videogaming.
 
curdstar said:
The rule not the exception I am finding. I am using basic shooting too and I absolutely feel like the AI plays a similar game when I go to manual passing. That game in which I took those stats from was one of the most engaging games of football I have ever played in 35 years football videogaming.
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That´s what I feel too and what I have read a few times here from other users.
 
chiefrocka4real said:
That´s what I feel too and what I have read a few times here from other users.
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I have went back to PA1/Top Player for my ML just now, as my Benevento team are rock bottom of the league :LOL:

But it is good knowing that there is a fantastic we increase in challenge, which doesn't feel like a war of attrition or unrealistc, waiting there for me.
 
curdstar said:
An example of what my games are generally like when using PA0 in ML at Superstar difficulty. Stats taken from a game I played last night:

Possession 55/45 in favour of me

68% pass completion from me, 71% from the AI
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My experience with Hull (team spirit 60) - though only from two games - was possession 62%/38% and 89%/73% pass completion in the AI's favour (these figures are from the Liverpool game, against West Ham they were largely the same). This was on Professional, too (although I was glad to see Liverpool beat me, whereas on Top Player and PA1 I was drawing against Man Utd and Arsenal, which felt weird).

I'll keep trying tonight, although I'm scared to put it on Superstar...
 
Chris Davies said:
My experience with Hull (team spirit 60) - though only from two games - was possession 62%/38% and 89%/73% pass completion in the AI's favour (these figures are from the Liverpool game, against West Ham they were largely the same). This was on Professional, too (although I was glad to see Liverpool beat me, whereas on Top Player and PA1 I was drawing against Man Utd and Arsenal, which felt weird).

I'll keep trying tonight, although I'm scared to put it on Superstar...
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It must be said I am generally with you on the assisted/manual debate; regards theory at the very least. The perfect football game will be one which truly gets the balance right on a default level of assistance.

Superstar ML with manual passing is brutal but very rewarding and the games can play out magnificently. I'm paying way more attention to player skills and their preferred Attack and Defence style when considering my starting eleven. There is tons of depth in there and does reward... but it equally can frustrate when the your best laid plans are swept aside.

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Both games seem to have, in my opinion, this weird (mostly pleasing) shift by the AI's playing style depending on settings chosen. Could be placebo, but it is just so prevalent whenever I play and change settings.

Top Player, PA1 and Advanced shooting used in comps feels good. As if the AI is showing some respect for you picking the Advanced Shooting option, so it doesn't try to go direct on but can offer you just a wee bit more time when shooting.

Superstar with Advanced Shooting and the COM seems to again play a more varied and measured game - once again as if it is identifying that you are not trying to steamroller it with fully assisted controls.

Superstar/Top Player with Manual Passing and Basic Shooting and the COM plays quite fairly, but makes getting a shot off a tad more difficult, making you work for your opening with a basic shooting set-up.

In FIFA, I was initially playing with Semi Assisted passing on World Class and slow speed and the AI was dull, dull, dull, dull and way too forgiving. Moved it to Assisted and Nomal speed and the game was too fast and the AI was ping-ponging it. Moved it to slow speed with assisted and the AI was far more energetic and deliberate in its play.

Still want either of these games to have an unlockable difficulty, like a new game+. Used to love playing to unlock that in PES in the old days. Wouldn't start an ML until that difficulty was unlocked. Maybe a tad old fashioned these days, but it made you play.
 
curdstar said:
I have went back to PA1/Top Player for my ML just now, as my Benevento team are rock bottom of the league :LOL:

But it is good knowing that there is a fantastic we increase in challenge, which doesn't feel like a war of attrition or unrealistc, waiting there for me.
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I went from full manual back to PH0 and basic shooting as the AI kept slashing me in the myclub challenges.
And even now I´m struggling to beat them :P
 
Chris Davies said:
My experience with Hull (team spirit 60) - though only from two games - was possession 62%/38% and 89%/73% pass completion in the AI's favour (these figures are from the Liverpool game, against West Ham they were largely the same). This was on Professional, too (although I was glad to see Liverpool beat me, whereas on Top Player and PA1 I was drawing against Man Utd and Arsenal, which felt weird).

I'll keep trying tonight, although I'm scared to put it on Superstar...
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PES 2017 is at it's best in superstar, give it a try.

My OCD doesn't let me play on anything other than hardest difficulty!
 
Re Ball physics - I think Matt made a good point about Fifa - the ball needs to be a bit bigger. Pes ball is perfect size.
Played FIFA for 2 hours last night using slider set 2 and enjoyed it. There is good game there but if it weren't for the people testing sliders I'd have sold it on day one.
No game should have to have this much testing and adjusting.
 
Been playing PES 2017 on MY own PS4...playing myclub (which I enjoy to some extent, but actually wishing back MLO) against CPU mostly until I installed an OF to play ML.
Enjoying the gameplay still, just wish there were more slots to save replays (10 is quite low), but well...you got share option.
Also like I said in the other thread: full manual against full manual users online is the best online experiences I ever had.
Can´t say that about FIFA as I never tried full manual there...maybe I should.

At times my kids come at me asking "Dad, come on FIFA! I´ll smash you!" and then I´m up for a game which I enjoy a lot either. Like I said a few posts before it´s all in my head to know "Now it´s FIFA...not PES" and it´s fine that way.
I enjoy the positives from that gameplay and can overlook the negatives and well....I have fun playing it.

Then coming back to PES it´s the same thing vice versa. Enjoying what I like there, being able to overlook the stuff that I don´t like.
I actually love it being able to switch.

Of course there are things in one game which I wish to be in the other game and vice versa, but well, what can you do?

I´m helping my son to build a fut team and am trading cards for him to earn some coins via the web app in my office :P which I enjoy too. To me that system is very well done (except for that extra chemistry cards to boost up player stats) and it´s such a great addition to be able to work on your team when you´re not in the game actually.
I wish PES had that. My feelings about myclub are mixed but all in all I don´t find it a very good invention.

Of course it´s up to everyone else what someone prefers and that´s all good.
I just can´t take that bashing-one-game for something serious.
Those two footy games are kind of like graphic cards to me...NVIDIA and AMD.
Sometimes I use this and sometimes I use that...it´s good being able to choose.
 
gabe.paul.logan said:
For me is Sliders is the best thing in the past years since u cant adjust PES and its flaws. You can do that with FIFA at least.
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This is the problem. I have no idea why only few can see it....

The focus should be on why they're constantly being allowed to release a flawed game. Sliders are nothing but a cop-out, whether you use them or not. People that use them are admitting it makes the game playable, without tweaks its unplayable!

Exactly, so why arent people protesting en masse?

As consistent yearly paying consumers (I hate that term) most of us are being a soft touch regards this issue. The developers are getting far too much of an easy ride.

If VW kept releasing a flawed car, there would be outrage and call backs. If Adidas kept releasing a flawed trainer, people would be getting refunded. Whats the difference? Because its digital?

No excuse.
 
craney91 said:
People that use them are admitting it makes the game playable, without tweaks its unplayable!

Exactly, so why arent people protesting en masse?
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Because literally 90%+ of the people who buy it A) don't even know sliders exist, B) don't play offline, and C) aren't analysing the quality of the game, they're just buying it for the 16/17 data and starting over on Ultimate Team. They buy the game like they'd buy a new bulb - it's just a required payment every now and then, and if it switches on, it's doing its job.

You wonder why people aren't protesting "en masse" - there isn't a "masse" that are complaining. There's us. EA don't care about us.

Get this. FIFA 17 officially sold the most copies of any FIFA on launch day (and no doubt during launch week).

That's not because everyone was blown away by the demo (though I'm sure some were). It's just because everyone has to have FIFA. Nobody's mates (outside of this forum) play PES any more, and if you're a bloke with a console and you follow football, you'll buy a football game.

(The fact that it's bundled with consoles helps, too - something a suspected Konami representative complained to MCV about last year.)

Bearing all of this in mind... We are incredibly lucky to have sliders, because we aren't EA's target audience any more, and without them, I wouldn't be able to enjoy the game end-of-story.

As it is, I can get something out of the player career mode.

The fact that sliders exist has no impact on the gameplay of the final product. It's just a relatively simple feature, and nothing would change without it.
 
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Sliders in PES would be nice but they are not needed nearly as much as what FIFA needs them..in the FIFAs that i really enjoyed 16 included i spent months finding the right sliders. I think PES 14,15 and 16 desperately needed them but 17 nowhere near as much..Also to remember is that tactics in PES work properly and a lot of FIFA slider adjustments was because tactics didnt work so i was using them to try and force players to sit where i wanted them
 
I just don't see any logical reason for sliders not to be included in any sports game. Nobody but the hardcore ever realise they're there, nobody is forced to use them, and they do not affect the quality of the "vanilla" gameplay (no developer has ever used their inclusion as an excuse for anything). The scaremongering is bizarre.

Sliders are just a UI screen that lets you change INI file settings, "ballspeed=50" or whatever. They're such a non-feature to most, devs never even mention them.

As much as I love PES this year, sliders could potentially even improve that. (But my suspicion is that some of FIFA's values don't exist in PES, such as "pass error" - because passes are intercepted, never really misplaced.)
 
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hitmanuk said:
Sliders in PES would be nice but they are not needed nearly as much as what FIFA needs them..in the FIFAs that i really enjoyed 16 included i spent months finding the right sliders. I think PES 14,15 and 16 desperately needed them but 17 nowhere near as much..Also to remember is that tactics in PES work properly and a lot of FIFA slider adjustments was because tactics didnt work so i was using them to try and force players to sit where i wanted them
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Didn´t you say that manual settings on PES were kind of your sliders?
(If no then sry, I must have mixed it up with someone else).

PA 0 and manual shooting is my PES sliders. Without them the game would be unplayable for me and I´d be playing FIFA 17 all the way.

I don´t understand that permanent questioning about FIFA´s sliders. They´re in and it´s a good thing.
 
Have to say that this is the first year I am more than happy to play both FIFA (pc) and PES (PS4). The things that both games gets right are fantastic and while there are things I would change about both, they dont stop me wanting to play.

Fifa does need the slider changes though, I didnt like the demo at all. I wish Konami would go down the slider route. You can never have to many options in any game.
 
chiefrocka4real said:
I don´t understand that permanent questioning about FIFA´s sliders. They´re in and it´s a good thing.
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When I was teaching, my colleagues spent weeks arguing about recess duty: discussing who should be supervising outside at recess, how many times a week, what to do if people weren't able to make it to their supervision duty... Me, I just went out every day on my own, never missed a recess, and enjoyed playing football and hockey and talking with the kids. Some people prefer to talk about whether sliders should be in the game, others just go into Settings and move them around.
 
angus said:
Some people prefer to talk about whether sliders should be in the game, others just go into Settings and move them around.
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Chris Davies said:
Because literally 90%+ of the people who buy it A) don't even know sliders exist, B) don't play offline, and C) aren't analysing the quality of the game, they're just buying it for the 16/17 data and starting over on Ultimate Team. They buy the game like they'd buy a new bulb - it's just a required payment every now and then, and if it switches on, it's doing its job.

You wonder why people aren't protesting "en masse" - there isn't a "masse" that are complaining. There's us. EA don't care about us.

Get this. FIFA 17 officially sold the most copies of any FIFA on launch day (and no doubt during launch week).

That's not because everyone was blown away by the demo (though I'm sure some were). It's just because everyone has to have FIFA. Nobody's mates (outside of this forum) play PES any more, and if you're a bloke with a console and you follow football, you'll buy a football game.

(The fact that it's bundled with consoles helps, too - something a suspected Konami representative complained to MCV about last year.)

Bearing all of this in mind... We are incredibly lucky to have sliders, because we aren't EA's target audience any more, and without them, I wouldn't be able to enjoy the game end-of-story.

As it is, I can get something out of the player career mode.

The fact that sliders exist has no impact on the gameplay of the final product. It's just a relatively simple feature, and nothing would change without it.
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The games only going to be as good as its foundations. If you build a house out of sand on a beach, its going to fall down sooner or later. These sliders are like a cover for that house of sand, with people trying to divert the waves away from the house, but still, sooner or later that sandy house is coming down no matter how much you try to cover and protect it. Why? Because it is sand.

My point is if you use sliders FINE. But the core game, the foundations, need to be better or else sliders wont actually fix core issues. They'll tweak things around those issues, but those issues are still there.

NBA 2K has sliders. Always has as far as I can remember. But the foundations are fundamentally steady, sturdy. The sliders are there to cater to your own personal experience on the game if you want to tweak. Of course all games have niggles and issues, no game is void. But at least in some games they are toned or tuned down a bit.

For someone to say this game out the box is unplayable is a worrying statement.

They might aswell give us the creased up shirt for free and let the community iron it.
 
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