FIFA 12 Discussion Thread

What really has me concerned, and correct me if I've missed something, is that I have yet to see or hear anything regarding improved AI logic at the team level. This new vision feature sounds nifty but what's really needed in FIFA is a more advanced understanding of space and movement, from off-the-ball player runs to defensive line coordination.

I'm skeptical when it comes to PES's implementation on the current gen systems, but I love what Konami is saying about their efforts to improve AI. And you compare EA's efforts - focusing on one aspect, vision - and Konami's - focusing on more general player movement logic - and it really shines a poor light on EA's understanding not only of football in general but what their game needs so that it's a better representation of the sport.

I'm sorry but watching this producer video, I didn't know whether to laugh or cry. If this was one part of a series on improved AI, then it'd be great. But to be all that we are hearing regarding the nuts and bolts of the logic running gameplay? Really depressing.

When I become emperor of the world, my first edict will be to give all of EA's resources to Seabass.
 
To be fair Max, you have to assume that the AI is being worked on and that movement of the team has been changed or else the AI wouldn't understand the collisions, the vision or new tackling system.

What I am hoping to see is now when a player is being "contained" that the other team mates look to support by dropping closer or making an angle.

One thing that does make me laugh is "their poor understanding of football" [sic]. I think its fair to say that they have a very deep understanding of football they just struggle to execute the football we/you/I want. That is very different to not understanding football.
 
@ Max,

They already have great team AI! They ticked that box in 09 with custom tactics!

@ Glen,

In the same way they understand football and have in their biggest PR moment (for 11 E3 video) Liverpool winning the premierleague with blue ribbons! I know it's a small and petty example, but the game reeks of these types of lazyness or lack of understanding. And when you look at how the AI actually works you can't help but think...They don't get it! They are amazing technicians but that's how they think they need to solve everything.
 
The whole 'understanding of football' argument boils down to one thing - the game that is eventually released. As far as I'm concerned, pretty much everything that FIFA excels at is something that doesn't require a significant understanding of football to achieve. There are countless dev studios out there who could pull off things like 360 dribbling, incredibly fluid animations, the trick stick, right stick knock-ons, 11 v 11 online gameplay.

Conversely it takes an understanding of football to pull off the AI-centric aspects of P+, or to get Pro Passing right, or first touch, or even just to get the defensive AI right. The vast majority of things that FIFA gets wrong, are in areas where knowledge of the subject matter are important.

So I think that, when Rutter comes out with utter bollocks like "we're very satisfied that we have created the definitive simulation of football", people like TikTik have every right to say 'well you obviously don't understand football then'. They're making their own bed (Pro Bedmaker +), so why shouldn't they lie in it?
 
http://fifa4fans.de/de/fifa-11/magazin/report/959-fifa-12-pr-event-in-der-allianz-arena

On Thursday, the 7th July 2011 EA Sports presents the first PC version of FIFA 12 on a PR event in the Allianz Arena in Munich. Lead Producer David Rutter also presented new features of the new game - such as the completely revamped career mode.

FIFA 4 Fans is also invited to participate at the PR event in the Allianz Arena.

So we will have the opportunity to play for the first time the new PC version of FIFA 12 - and thus detect whether the PC and console versions of FIFA 12 have actually the same features.

In addition, we are also able to talk with David Rutter - it is interesting but also the extent to which FIFA 12 has evolved since the FIFA 12 Hands-On event on the PlayStation 3 and Xbox 360.

Stay tuned for detailed reports, impressions and experiences game - now here at FIFA 4 Fans!



* Update *
As is customary at such events, is there is also at this event again a news block, since it is at the event to an international tour. The news block is Monday, 11 From July. The information about FIFA 12, we can therefore provide you until Monday. Over the first impressions of the event, we then report on Thursday evening.
 
Ray said:
http://fifa4fans.de/de/fifa-11/magazin/report/959-fifa-12-pr-event-in-der-allianz-arena

On Thursday, the 7th July 2011 EA Sports presents the first PC version of FIFA 12 on a PR event in the Allianz Arena in Munich. Lead Producer David Rutter also presented new features of the new game - such as the completely revamped career mode.
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So the question is, is that "completely revamped" over fifa11 on consoles or "completely revamped" over Fifa11 on PC which used manager mode from Fifa10 consoles which was bugged, broken and fundamentally flawed in every aspect and those same bugs followed onto the Fifa11 PC version despite Ian Jarvis' blatant lies that they fixed all the bugs from the Fifa10 MM bug list that we all contributed to.
 
romagnoli said:
The whole 'understanding of football' argument boils down to one thing - the game that is eventually released. As far as I'm concerned, pretty much everything that FIFA excels at is something that doesn't require a significant understanding of football to achieve. There are countless dev studios out there who could pull off things like 360 dribbling, incredibly fluid animations, the trick stick, right stick knock-ons, 11 v 11 online gameplay.

Conversely it takes an understanding of football to pull off the AI-centric aspects of P+, or to get Pro Passing right, or first touch, or even just to get the defensive AI right. The vast majority of things that FIFA gets wrong, are in areas where knowledge of the subject matter are important.

So I think that, when Rutter comes out with utter bollocks like "we're very satisfied that we have created the definitive simulation of football", people like TikTik have every right to say 'well you obviously don't understand football then'. They're making their own bed (Pro Bedmaker +), so why shouldn't they lie in it?
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Perfect post.
 
romagnoli said:
The whole 'understanding of football' argument boils down to one thing - the game that is eventually released. As far as I'm concerned, pretty much everything that FIFA excels at is something that doesn't require a significant understanding of football to achieve. There are countless dev studios out there who could pull off things like 360 dribbling, incredibly fluid animations, the trick stick, right stick knock-ons, 11 v 11 online gameplay.

Conversely it takes an understanding of football to pull off the AI-centric aspects of P+, or to get Pro Passing right, or first touch, or even just to get the defensive AI right. The vast majority of things that FIFA gets wrong, are in areas where knowledge of the subject matter are important.

So I think that, when Rutter comes out with utter bollocks like "we're very satisfied that we have created the definitive simulation of football", people like TikTik have every right to say 'well you obviously don't understand football then'. They're making their own bed (Pro Bedmaker +), so why shouldn't they lie in it?
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Agree with Jimmy, excellent post that succinctly sums up the situation.
 
romagnoli said:
The whole 'understanding of football' argument boils down to one thing - the game that is eventually released. As far as I'm concerned, pretty much everything that FIFA excels at is something that doesn't require a significant understanding of football to achieve. There are countless dev studios out there who could pull off things like 360 dribbling, incredibly fluid animations, the trick stick, right stick knock-ons, 11 v 11 online gameplay.

Conversely it takes an understanding of football to pull off the AI-centric aspects of P+, or to get Pro Passing right, or first touch, or even just to get the defensive AI right. The vast majority of things that FIFA gets wrong, are in areas where knowledge of the subject matter are important.

So I think that, when Rutter comes out with utter bollocks like "we're very satisfied that we have created the definitive simulation of football", people like TikTik have every right to say 'well you obviously don't understand football then'. They're making their own bed (Pro Bedmaker +), so why shouldn't they lie in it?
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ProPost+. Funny that a few days ago I said Rutter had no idea what he was talking about when saying they made the "definitive simulation of football" on a PES FORUM "someone" told me I was crazy lol. And when Jon Murphy said he thinks PES 2012 will "smash the competition" in terms of gameplay in a CVG interview, some took it as really offensive lol.
 
EA shouldn't be allowed to pile out the definitive football crap without the media laughing at it. Problem is, what we get instead is the media jizzing all over how brilliant they are. That's a huge part of the issue. EA think they are producing the definitive football simulation because they constantly get told that they are by all the damned reviews and previews. A reality pill would really help right now.

I'm here for the longhaul.
 
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romagnoli said:
The whole 'understanding of football' argument boils down to one thing - the game that is eventually released. As far as I'm concerned, pretty much everything that FIFA excels at is something that doesn't require a significant understanding of football to achieve. There are countless dev studios out there who could pull off things like 360 dribbling, incredibly fluid animations, the trick stick, right stick knock-ons, 11 v 11 online gameplay.

Conversely it takes an understanding of football to pull off the AI-centric aspects of P+, or to get Pro Passing right, or first touch, or even just to get the defensive AI right. The vast majority of things that FIFA gets wrong, are in areas where knowledge of the subject matter are important.

So I think that, when Rutter comes out with utter bollocks like "we're very satisfied that we have created the definitive simulation of football", people like TikTik have every right to say 'well you obviously don't understand football then'. They're making their own bed (Pro Bedmaker +), so why shouldn't they lie in it?
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Nailed it. I made a post similar to this last night but deleted it (couldn't be arsed to edit it properly).

EA seem to think they're the dogs b's at the moment when they're game AI has fallen so far behind PES's that the next game will likely see PES actually gain a lot of recognition by the press this time around. The AI in FIFA is literally braindead. They don't do anything with a sense of purpose. it's just 21 headless chickens and the player you control.

Sadly if you went to tell EA that they'd tell you to show them a vid. When you show them a vid they ignore it. For instance i can't believe how bad manager mode is for a major sports title. Check out the prematch build-up for instance in NBA2k11 or EA's own Madden 2012. It smashes any efforts made by EA Canada even though FIFA sell's on par with those other titles worldwide. It's a bad joke. I'm VERY disappointed that AI isn't a Major bulletpoint for EA this time. It really should be.

Our only salvation could be a decent manager mode... please?
 
The press won't even give PES a look in. They've already declared Fifa as the 'simulation' from the E3 build they played :YAWN:
 
StuartCulli said:
The press won't even give PES a look in. They've already declared Fifa as the 'simulation' from the E3 build they played :YAWN:
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For me, that's good news for PES, it think it's better off being the number 2 game in the media. they won't dub the game down as much for casuals and the hardcore will be able to add input to the game more. I don't think PES needs to worry about much, maybe marketing and releasing a guide though.

Its saying a lot when my brother who's been completely off football games and ALL since 2007 pretty much is now addicted to PES 2011. PES isn't reaching as many people as it should be.

As with FIFA, i just don't know, i really don't. At the moment i just hope it's fun at least! How long can FIFA live on this hype for?
 
StuartCulli said:
YouTube - FIFA 11 - My Bronze Team Don't Mess About

Three goals from the exact same 'zone'. This game is fantastically shit.
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How about Routledge scoring from the finesse zone with his weaker foot perfectly?

YouTube - FIFA 11 - I Get Owned, Then I Own - Episode 1

I say it's scripted this goal because not just Routledge is scoring a goal with his weaker foot which requires a large amount of precision and something you would really only see players attempt with their stronger foot unless they are a ambidexter. But the Keeper again!!! It's like he's being told to run back and act confused when the ball goes past him. You never see him save it or get a hand to those!

Or the scripted ball physics goal (Pato from 50 yards)? I mean that goal was exactly like Matt Taylors wonderstrike against everton! But for me the ball just seems to follow and invisible string and go it. it's like the game recognized the keeper was off his line and triggered A scripted a goal because of the circumstances.

This fits in with when Rutter says he watches football, then he see's something then he goes 'OH MY GOD!" WE NEED TO PUT THIS IN THE GAME!

Thing is Rutter, i don't like scripted goals and sweetspots because it gets repetitive and i don't enjoy repetitiveness along with many others, i like games to stay fresh. This is why game balance is crucial to provide more fresh gameplay to keep the game alive and most importantly fun, realistic simulation or arcade.
 
I have to say that the last few posts have been amazingly accurate and seeing EA continuously tout FIFA as the definitive simulation is worrying.
Impact engine looks pretty good in any case, but I wish they focused more on AI.
 
kobayashi said:
How about Routledge scoring from the finesse zone with his weaker foot perfectly?

YouTube - FIFA 11 - I Get Owned, Then I Own - Episode 1

I say it's scripted this goal because not just Routledge is scoring a goal with his weaker foot which requires a large amount of precision and something you would really only see players attempt with their stronger foot unless they are a ambidexter. But the Keeper again!!! It's like he's being told to run back and act confused when the ball goes past him. You never see him save it or get a hand to those!

Or the scripted ball physics goal (Pato from 50 yards)? I mean that goal was exactly like Matt Taylors wonderstrike against everton! But for me the ball just seems to follow and invisible string and go it. it's like the game recognized the keeper was off his line and triggered A scripted a goal because of the circumstances.

This fits in with when Rutter says he watches football, then he see's something then he goes 'OH MY GOD!" WE NEED TO PUT THIS IN THE GAME!

Thing is Rutter, i don't like scripted goals and sweetspots because it gets repetitive and i don't enjoy repetitiveness along with many others, i like games to stay fresh. This is why game balance is crucial to provide more fresh gameplay to keep the game alive and most importantly fun, realistic simulation or arcade.
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OMG, look at the Pato goal
so ugly i can't express my feeling in words. So unrealistic ball phisycs and shot
and some say Pes is arcade :SHOCK:
 
kobayashi said:
How about Routledge scoring from the finesse zone with his weaker foot perfectly?

YouTube - FIFA 11 - I Get Owned, Then I Own - Episode 1

I say it's scripted this goal because not just Routledge is scoring a goal with his weaker foot which requires a large amount of precision and something you would really only see players attempt with their stronger foot unless they are a ambidexter. But the Keeper again!!! It's like he's being told to run back and act confused when the ball goes past him. You never see him save it or get a hand to those!

Or the scripted ball physics goal (Pato from 50 yards)? I mean that goal was exactly like Matt Taylors wonderstrike against everton! But for me the ball just seems to follow and invisible string and go it. it's like the game recognized the keeper was off his line and triggered A scripted a goal because of the circumstances.

This fits in with when Rutter says he watches football, then he see's something then he goes 'OH MY GOD!" WE NEED TO PUT THIS IN THE GAME!

Thing is Rutter, i don't like scripted goals and sweetspots because it gets repetitive and i don't enjoy repetitiveness along with many others, i like games to stay fresh. This is why game balance is crucial to provide more fresh gameplay to keep the game alive and most importantly fun, realistic simulation or arcade.
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Wow nice hit with Pato haha. I agree though about the ball on a string comment. At first the dip on the ball looks really nice on FIFA 11 but then it feels like the ball is being un-naturally sucked in towards the goal.

The balance is not quite right on FIFA sadly. I like the game but I do wish you could play against the CPU and beat players or find space as if you played against a human. The AI is just too rigid. It doesn't have to be purely biased towards the offensive side of things but there's something in the movement of players that is not quite sitting right.

For some reason I prefer the way PES shooting feels like it has some weight behind it, even though that too doesn't give you the absolute feeling that the ball is acting independently.
 
Those willing to stump up for a FIFA 12 pre-order will net themselves some complimentary Ultimate Team packs, EA has announced.

Commit to the PS3 or Xbox 360 version of FIFA 12: Ultimate Edition through GAME or Gamestation and you'll receive 24 FIFA 12 Ultimate Team Gold packs (four per month for six months) for use in this year's edition of Ultimate Team.

If you instead plump for FIFA 12: Special Edition from any other UK retailer you'll get 18 FIFA 12 Ultimate Team Gold packs (three per month for six months).

FIFA 12 launches on 30th September, with FIFA 12 Ultimate Team following in October.
 
jaygrim said:
Those willing to stump up for a FIFA 12 pre-order will net themselves some complimentary Ultimate Team packs, EA has announced.

Commit to the PS3 or Xbox 360 version of FIFA 12: Ultimate Edition through GAME or Gamestation and you'll receive 24 FIFA 12 Ultimate Team Gold packs (four per month for six months) for use in this year's edition of Ultimate Team.

If you instead plump for FIFA 12: Special Edition from any other UK retailer you'll get 18 FIFA 12 Ultimate Team Gold packs (three per month for six months).

FIFA 12 launches on 30th September, with FIFA 12 Ultimate Team following in October.
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Hmmm on origin PC Version ultimate edition 2 gold packs per month for six month.
 
allewet said:
oh my

YouTube - FIFA Interactive World Cup | Final Game
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Indeed this summarizes almost everything thats wrong in this game. There's not much depth to it is there?

Sure, those two guys were probably nervous, and they only played to win, not to play football, but all of us here look at that and think that we've played players of their skill and beaten them countless times online.

I'm going to compare this game to a totally different one, but it goes to show how much depth and skill it takes to play (and master) each one: Street Fighter.

Yes, I know, totally diferent. But when you watch a Final of a big Street Fighter tournament, you can quickly see that those two guys could beat you 100 out of 100 matches easily. And not because they use glitches or bugs in the game, but because they are that much better than you at the game.

In FIFA, I've never really played against someone that really impressed me with their "skill", mainly because the game doesn't require much of it in order to win.

You see most players doing the same things over and over and over again, and they eventually work. In Street Fighter, if you try some sort of exploit twice against a top player, he will punish you. In FIFA, I don't have the tools to punish "spammers", the game doesn't allow me to do it. And it pisses me off.
 
As far as the PC version is concerned, does the statement that the game will be identical across the 3 platforms mean that we'll also be getting last year's Pro Passing, Personality+, 360 fight for possession, Become a keeper, new menus etc ?
For the more experience FIFA players, how much (%) will those along with the new fancy "features" improve upon the FIFA 10 that FIFA 11 for PCs basically was?
 
What really worried me about that final vid was that it looked exactly like how the AI play against me. Kick off and full on attack within 2 passes. No possesion or clever movement, just full on running towards the opposition goal and / or crosses from out wide.

So really, EA are doing a great job having the AI represent the way humans play FIFA......It's just a shame they are spamming every glitch to win at all costs. And as long as they are the core consumer there is little hope for the rest of us imo. Again, here's hoping PES have added a large amount of transition animations as I'll be off to PES come september/october!
 
The average, 'casual' Fifa player would never want to play any differently though. If EA made the CPU AI incredibly realistic & they played keep ball, these people aren't going to adapt their game in order to beat the CPU; they're just going to play the same way they have for 4 years.
 
Kostaz said:
As far as the PC version is concerned, does the statement that the game will be identical across the 3 platforms mean that we'll also be getting last year's Pro Passing, Personality+, 360 fight for possession, Become a keeper, new menus etc ?
For the more experience FIFA players, how much (%) will those along with the new fancy "features" improve upon the FIFA 10 that FIFA 11 for PCs basically was?
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FIFA 12 PC will be identical to FIFA 12 Consoles.

http://www.ea.com/uk/football/news/fifa12-pc-02
 
StuartCulli said:
The average, 'casual' Fifa player would never want to play any differently though. If EA made the CPU AI incredibly realistic & they played keep ball, these people aren't going to adapt their game in order to beat the CPU; they're just going to play the same way they have for 4 years.
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They've created a catch22 by dismissing the importance of key football basics* in the earlier games. Players will spam the game as that works, and now because of the succes EA have had they can't really adress the issues (if they are even able to) without upsetting a large group of gamers.

A football game, imo, should be a cross between chess and streetfighter....a carefull game of prodding your opponents defensive and attacking positioning and when finding a weaklink hit them with speed, skill and fast reactions. That would be great imo if playing online, to have a cerebral challenge and then when possible trying to beat them with physical skill aswell (timing&control).

*We don't actually know if they dismissed the basics, it's probably going according to their plan and the timing of it all, with the fall of PES, has just worked amazingly well for EA.
 
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