FIFA 12 Discussion Thread

[Lami]

It is really hard to convince this crowd. I give up and leave indefinitely. Just FYI, the crowd on Evo-Web are just as bad as the ones on FIFA forum, same biased attitude and trash talking, the only difference is that the crowd is older and more mature, although 'mature' is kind of an overstatement.

Don't get me wrong, I have finally been liking PES more than FIFA this year but I can't blind myself into not seeing the PES's numerous problems. You hear no one talking about PES's ping-pong passing. It is a game breaking issue especially when we're talking about a football simulation. Try to play online against a glory hunter and see how he will make you chase a ball for 90 minutes. You know there is something wrong with the passing system when you find out that the most efficient way to play as Wolves is possession football! Not to mention shooting is in a pretty bad state as well, or at least their matched animations don't look right. Through balls are far too easy to pull off, goalkeepers are very bad (both animations and shot blocking), and the switching system is so broken that even people on this forum have been outspoken about it. AI, player awareness and collision detection (or lack thereof) are other major issues.

Oh an so much individuality when in PES 2012's trailer Ashley Cole takes a free kick with his right foot*!

*- FIFA's is much shittier in that respect, but that don't make PES's good

What the hell? Really hard to convince this crowd? Why are you even on a mission to convince anyone in the first place? How about agreeing to disagreeing? How about accepting people's different tastes?

I also don't get all the defensiveness over a video game for gods sake. It is a video game everyone. Yes you'll get into debates if you're trying to explain something to people with opposing tastes, but why get all defensive and personal is beyond me.

Everyone. If you debate and argue, don't get defensive. Try and get your point across without being rude and offensive. If things aren't happening? Agree to disagree. At the end of the day, enjoy the game you think gives you satisfaction. That is all that matters.

Enjoy life. Take it easy.

And now, back on topic..

 

[glen]

Rob.... I think you miss read the overall situation somewhat....

They are tasked with making a game that sells well and plays well for most.

Everything beyond that is a courtesy. Because quite frankly flaws and all...it's apparently liked by a lot of people. So with some context it puts in to perspective our thoughts for the game and what they need to achieve with the game. Once you reconcile the fact that's there is a middle ground the more you can help guide the changes. Just pointing out rather subjective flaws is not going to move the game forward just look at rod and Rom to understand that.

Also appreciate that what you think regardless of 'consensus' is not a truth especially on a topic as subjective as football.

 

[romagnoli]

Witton = nerf

Oh hi there. I'm Neil Eardley.

You might know me from teams such as Oldham Athletic and Blackpool. But this is Career Mode, so I've moved across Lancashire to Blackburn Rovers in the transfer window. They like collecting average fullbacks, so I fit in well with my 74 OVR.

Today I was at Villa Park. In the second half I fielded this giant seventy-yard up-and-under from their goalkeeper...

YouTube - FIFA11 - Neil 'Ferenc' Eardley

See the way I killed that ball with one touch, as it dropped out of the sky over my shoulder, while I was running? Bergkamp-esque, right? Well, my Ball Control attribute is only 74.

See how I turn ninety degrees on a dime (my Agility attribute is 68 ), then, without even looking (my Vision attribute is 73), I instantly ping a fifty yard half-volley perfectly onto Morten's chest (my Long Pass attribute is 68 ).

Did I mention that I'm right-footed with a weak-foot ability of 3 out of 5? I did all of this with my swinger.

This Personality+ thing is great, it makes me play like Puskas.

Love and kisses,
Neil.

The ability of players to control the ball too often equates to much of the above, with the occasional heavier touch if the animation allows it. It isn't a remotely consistent or balanced system. It's fun to be able to make Bebe take down a crossfield thump with graceful ease, maybe trapping the ball slightly (but not meaningfully) further away from you than Berbatov. But does it feel like a less technical player needs to worry about bringing the ball down before trying to move in a direction? Does it feel like, if you try and take a directed, purposeful first touch on such a pass, that a Bebe is more likely to flunk his touch and let the ball run / overhit the knock-on / not get the direction right? Because I don't see it and I'm not sure anyone else can honestly say they do. Not to the extent that you would be less likely to try the same thump again.

 

[Rob92]

 

[glen]

But the ambiguity comes with the fact that even I can take a first class world level first touch or trap.

There is a consistancy issue but then again until you get to the lower rung a player is always going to try and take a good first touch or trap. So you get to this grey area where your artificially nerf a player to create poor touches, because the pass system is so consistent. There is very limited scope of awareness (just look at pro passing) for any sort of context.

I also don't want to make a bread and butter pass and 5 games in a row a player artificially makes a meal of it. I really don't think with the pace and gameplay of FIFA you can get that granularity with the game.

Time will tell but I'm skeptical.

 

[glen]

As a side note I think it's fucking ace to ridicule a new member who just believes something different. Rightly or wrongly cause ya know its just cool.

 

[kobayashi]

It is really hard to convince this crowd. I give up and leave indefinitely. Just FYI, the crowd on Evo-Web are just as bad as the ones on FIFA forum, same biased attitude and trash talking, the only difference is that the crowd is older and more mature, although 'mature' is kind of an overstatement.

Don't get me wrong, I have finally been liking PES more than FIFA this year but I can't blind myself into not seeing the PES's numerous problems. You hear no one talking about PES's ping-pong passing. It is a game breaking issue especially when we're talking about a football simulation. Try to play online against a glory hunter and see how he will make you chase a ball for 90 minutes. You know there is something wrong with the passing system when you find out that the most efficient way to play as Wolves is possession football!

You do know that happens in online ranked because of the regular AI? Makes passing easier, the game is faster. Defenders complete idiots and all sorts of dub downs. There's more to the game than online ranked or MLO even!

Shame you didn't play many games using top player or professional mate.

Just saying best to judge a game on the whole perspective and try to find the route of the problems and any why you believe on their and the others say different.

 

[glen]

Opinion is opinion koby. Again right or wrong its there for debate not judgement.

 

[Rob92]

The way a game works isn't subjective though - it is how it is.

Whether you like/enjoy it or not is an opinion.

 

[glen]

Oh rob bless you. Yes it is subjective. It is how it is but we all have our own experiences with it. Hence the term 'subjective' there is mechanical and some logic issues as well but you really can't describe or talk about MY gameplay issues. There is some overlap in opinion but for example I have no issues with the defensive ai bar responsiveness for headers. Minor positional stuff but the catch up logic balances the game play.

Now you can watch 1 second flaws in time or focus on 15 mins of the game you (YOU) play.

So one inappropriate trap, one too perfect a pass is well annoying but it's easily forgotten. There are much far deeper gameplay issues over the course of a match than trapping or first touch. But we are skipping the point of welcoming new members and new ideas.....

 

[romagnoli]

But the ambiguity comes with the fact that even I can take a first class world level first touch or trap.

But in real life you wouldn't expect the trap to come off so you wouldn't be in a position to then instantly complete a subsequent pass, shot, or second touch. If by some statistical fluke you managed to successfully bring a difficult ball (by international standards) perfectly under control, you would surprise yourself as much as everyone around you. Just having that uncertainty of thought resulting from the uncertainty of the outcome of the control attempt is what affects the type of touch you might try to make in the first place. You don't have that in FIFA because the slightly heavier touches that do happen are the exception, not the rule.

There is a consistancy issue but then again until you get to the lower rung a player is always going to try and take a good first touch or trap. So you get to this grey area where your artificially nerf a player to create poor touches, because the pass system is so consistent. There is very limited scope of awareness (just look at pro passing) for any sort of context.

A player is always going to try and take a good first touch or trap, yes. Nobody's saying that a player is deliberately taking a bad first touch or trap. But if you know the odds of you completing a good first touch or trap are genuinely impacted by the state of the ball and the state of the player, then you are going to put the effort in to ensure that you maximise your chances of taking a good first touch or trap. That's decision making, and any step towards making people think about these things is a big step forwards. We're a long way from that with the current implementation. A very long way.

I also don't want to make a bread and butter pass and 5 games in a row a player artificially makes a meal of it.

That's something we all agree on then. We all want it to be context sensitive. None of us want it to be purely dice rolling, nor do we want League Two players to find it impossible to trap such passes within a fixed radius of themselves (ie fixed ball control distances). We just don't want ball control like that shown in the Youtube vid to be ten-a-penny as they currently are. In fact, I don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that you should need a ball control rating above a certain threshold just to attempt to bring a ball with that sort of crowd-hushing nonchalant brilliance.

Time will tell but I'm skeptical.

Sorry, time will tell what?

 

[azur]

It is really hard to convince this crowd. I give up and leave indefinitely. Just FYI, the crowd on Evo-Web are just as bad as the ones on FIFA forum, same biased attitude and trash talking, the only difference is that the crowd is older and more mature, although 'mature' is kind of an overstatement.

Don't get me wrong, I have finally been liking PES more than FIFA this year but I can't blind myself into not seeing the PES's numerous problems. You hear no one talking about PES's ping-pong passing. It is a game breaking issue especially when we're talking about a football simulation. Try to play online against a glory hunter and see how he will make you chase a ball for 90 minutes. You know there is something wrong with the passing system when you find out that the most efficient way to play as Wolves is possession football! Not to mention shooting is in a pretty bad state as well, or at least their matched animations don't look right. Through balls are far too easy to pull off, goalkeepers are very bad (both animations and shot blocking), and the switching system is so broken that even people on this forum have been outspoken about it. AI, player awareness and collision detection (or lack thereof) are other major issues.

Oh an so much individuality when in PES 2012's trailer Ashley Cole takes a free kick with his right foot*!

*- FIFA's is much shittier in that respect, but that don't make PES's good

What PES has to do with 1st touch in fifa? I dont play PES, i dont like PES and PES its a bad game as it is FIFA! 1st touch in FIFA is ridiculous, and the fact you can't see that shows how much you understand about football. In fact, you dont need to understand football, just watch a game and compare it with FIFA!

 

[romagnoli]

Oh rob bless you. Yes it is subjective. It is how it is but we all have our own experiences with it. Hence the term 'subjective' there is mechanical and some logic issues as well but you really can't describe or talk about MY gameplay issues. There is some overlap in opinion but for example I have no issues with the defensive ai bar responsiveness for headers. Minor positional stuff but the catch up logic balances the game play.

Now you can watch 1 second flaws in time or focus on 15 mins of the game you (YOU) play.

So one inappropriate trap, one too perfect a pass is well annoying but it's easily forgotten. There are much far deeper gameplay issues over the course of a match than trapping or first touch. But we are skipping the point of welcoming new members and new ideas.....

This is the point. It's not 1-second flaws that we're hovering over with a big mallet, waiting to smack on the head to a comedy squeak. This is fundamental.

If a player can bring any ball down with almost unerring grace as they do now, then you don't ever have to think about whether a player will control the ball - you're just thinking about what to do next. If you have error or uncertainty, then it naturally affect how you look to control the ball. You start thinking about whether you have to just try and bring the ball under control, rather than just taking the ball on the move and carrying on. It starts to make a difference whether a player is fast or fast and technical.

Ball control and trapping is at least as deep as any other issue in the game. It's not a triviality. You yourself said that passing is 50% passer, 50% recipient. I don't agree with the numbers, but surely ball control is a significant part of what defines the ability of the recipient, along with anticipation and reaction?

 

[glen]

Rom, when is the state of the player and the state of the pass different enough to engineer the situation you describe?

Even on full manual the player always shapes to take the ball or run on to it.

So given the current mechanic how do you think poor first touch or take down could be added without thinking wtf? Passing is too accurate most recievers should take these passes down?

 

[glen]

I was patronising rob to be fair.

No your right, but in the context of say a thousand games when should a player take it down or receive it correctly?

I reiterate with the passing so good why would these players not take it ok? The over the shoulder control is exaggerated but only because the pass/Clarence lands on their toe....

If The recipient had to move to get the ball then yeah, but because every pass is in an envelope the ai already pre positions the player to take it.

First time control is an issue it's a by product of ai and highly accurate passing. Sort the first two out and then we can comment on far too accurate first time touches or trapping. Otherwise we are asking ea to make the ai make control decisions for us

 

[Gab_]

But first touch has to do with any touch, which are always more or less perfect in FIFA. Why would the first touch have error if touches when dribbling/sprinting doesn't have any errors applied to them? If "normal" touches had error, then first touches would automatically have them too. Just because you're in position doesn't mean the first touch should be perfect. If the ball in the example had just hit the foot an inch to the side the ball would have bounced off in a completely different direction (in real life). Touches can also be bad because of pressure or lack of concentration for example.

 

[romagnoli]

Whether the ball actually goes to a player is just one part of the state of the ball. The pace, the bounce, whether the ball is off the ground, the amount of time the player has to react... these are all things that have to be considered too. That Neil Eardley example is textbook - the ball clearly reaches the player. But the ball is dropping out of the heavens and will be travelling at quite a speed by the time he interacts with it.

Whether the player performs the animation to trap the ball isn't enough to define the precision of the outcome. A player trying to take a difficult pass on the turn is not the same as a player taking the difficult pass on the turn. The difference between success and failure in what Eardley attempts there is a matter of inches and degrees as far as his foot is concerned.

If what we have in that video is the template for the success and failure of ball control attempts (and it is) then we don't need to fix other areas first to see that there will still be a problem.

 

[azur]

I was patronising rob to be fair.

No your right, but in the context of say a thousand games when should a player take it down or receive it correctly?

I reiterate with the passing so good why would these players not take it ok? The over the shoulder control is exaggerated but only because the pass/Clarence lands on their toe....

If The recipient had to move to get the ball then yeah, but because every pass is in an envelope the ai already pre positions the player to take it.

First time control is an issue it's a by product of ai and highly accurate passing. Sort the first two out and then we can comment on far too accurate first time touches or trapping. Otherwise we are asking ea to make the ai make control decisions for us

What is so difficult to understand about 1st touch? I really cant get these theories about passing accuracy, ea's new system... Its really easy to fix this issue...

 

[glen]

A general question.... There are a thousand poor touches a match, the only ones we see are the ones that make a difference? True or false?

Lets pick on rio Ferdinand, last 2 games of the season his touch was really bad. He must of mistrapped 30 passes. Did it make a difference? No he was under no pressure and had room.

So up front it makes a difference but oddly in the 15 matches I got to this season poor choice and poor execution made the difference. Sure poor touches happened but they seemed recoverable or a natural slowdown in play.

 

[Rob92]

Oh rob bless you. Yes it is subjective. It is how it is but we all have our own experiences with it. Hence the term 'subjective' there is mechanical and some logic issues as well but you really can't describe or talk about MY gameplay issues. There is some overlap in opinion but for example I have no issues with the defensive ai bar responsiveness for headers. Minor positional stuff but the catch up logic balances the game play.

Now you can watch 1 second flaws in time or focus on 15 mins of the game you (YOU) play.

So one inappropriate trap, one too perfect a pass is well annoying but it's easily forgotten. There are much far deeper gameplay issues over the course of a match than trapping or first touch. But we are skipping the point of welcoming new members and new ideas.....

Obviously we will have differing experiences with the game, as we play in different ways.

However, the underlying code of the game we're playing is 100% identical in every way, therefore the way the game deals with certain situations is not subjective, as the game calculates the outcomes identically for both of us.

These issues we bring up, such as the way the first touch/ball control work, are factual.

And sorry, but facts cannot be argued.

 

[azur]

A general question.... There are a thousand poor touches a match, the only ones we see are the ones that make a difference?

False. Correction. "There are a thousand good touches a match , the only bad ones we see are the ones that make a difference?"

Do i really need to record a match and show it to you?

 

[glen]

Rob. How come Lewis Hamilton and jenson button can have wildly different races? How come simonchelli and ayohama are 10 seconds apart. I'm pretty sure the physics doesn't change?

Ya see that for all the 'flaws' very little is huge. Noticeable yes but experience breaking probably not. So again in the context of a whole match and some cheating ai do you really thing that first touch is not related to position and pre calculated pass angle/power?

 

[glen]

False. Correction. "There are a thousand good touches a match , the only bad ones we see are the ones that make a difference?"

Do i really need to record a match and show it to you?

No I see both div 1 and EPL matches live each week.

Plus watch most la liga matches. Appreciate the offer though

 

[romagnoli]

A general question.... There are a thousand poor touches a match, the only ones we see are the ones that make a difference? True or false?

False

Lets pick on rio Ferdinand, last 2 games of the season his touch was really bad. He must of mistrapped 30 passes. Did it make a difference? No he was under no pressure and had room.

So therefore in the game anyone and everyone with the same ball control rating as Rio Ferdinand should be able to bring any ball down? Rio Ferdinand seldom has to dribble past people either - should he dribble as well as Nani too since it doesn't really matter for his position?

Should it be up to a player playing the game to just head such a ball to an unmarked centre back in order to act out the more authentic behaviour, or should the ability of the people on the pitch encourage you to have that mindset?

So up front it makes a difference

Not just up front. All over the pitch. The pressing game for example is purposefully trying to force the issue amongst the defenders and midfielders, where the level of ability is less and the ability of your own players is higher. Hence the advent of midfielder-defenders like Busquets (and to an extent Carrick), to improve ball distribution and allow the full-backs to push right up the pitch, and the gradual re-emergence of ball-playing defenders because that's where the spare man is - two centrebacks vs one striker.

The history of football is full of such moves, the abilities of players in different positions evolving and indeed the formations themselves shifting. If you just use two wrongs to make a right then that has significant knock-on effects (no pun intended) with the way the whole game plays.

but oddly in the 15 matches I got to this season poor choice and poor execution made the difference. Sure poor touches happened but they seemed recoverable or a natural slowdown in play.

So much of what you would have seen would have been dictated by the players' ability to control the ball quickly, as well as to pass it first time or take the ball on the turn. So much. It doesn't take a Barca v Utd mismatch, or an England v Spain U21 match, to highlight the significance of technique as far as influencing the speed or potential intricacy of an attack, as well as when to stand off a player vs when to pressure and force an error.

 

[glen]

The difference Rom is at the matches I watch I have no input. In a game where I try to control each player it's unfair for ea to make the game play unappropriately against my wishes.

So what are we saying? I'm not sure. Until passes and movement create control/trapping variety I think focusing on trapping or first touch is the wrong area to try and change.

 

[Gab_]

It's unfair to use stats?

 

[romagnoli]

The difference Rom is at the matches I watch I have no input. In a game where I try to control each player it's unfair for ea to make the game play unappropriately against my wishes.

What does this bit mean?

So what are we saying? I'm not sure. Until passes and movement create control/trapping variety I think focusing on trapping or first touch is the wrong area to try and change.

Certainly we aren't saying that trapping and ball control should be fixed instead of passing variety. Nor should it be done the other way around. Fixing one or the other rather than distributing the work across both is a major gripe I have with FIFAs in general!

Just that it's clearly visible even with the current system that ball control and trapping are wrong, particular in those situations where the short, long and driven-lob passing provides imperfect control situations.

 

[glen]

It's unfair to use stats?

No of course not...the problem comes in a limited engine that only has a finite use of those stats.

Also the value wr place on stats skew what we expect as outcomes IMO. Just reading the stats I wouldn't take a shot with a league 2 player from more than 5 yards....

 

[glen]

Rom, how can the ball control and trapping be wrong when passes are played in a linear way? If there was substantial variance on a pass then yeah it's an issue. But currently there is not enough diversity in passing outcomes to make first touch or trapping an issue. Sure they are too good but then they aren't having to trap much variery.....

Again how do you introduce random trapping/stat based in to a game that gives you such artificially direct passing?

Trapping is an annoyance but its the failure of passing and movent that's the problem.

 

[Gab_]

No of course not...the problem comes in a limited engine that only has a finite use of those stats.

Also the value wr place on stats skew what we expect as outcomes IMO. Just reading the stats I wouldn't take a shot with a league 2 player from more than 5 yards....

The stats are complementary to the situation the player is in, so why only read the stats? If I have a defender with bad ball control, a hard incoming pass and a pressing attacker - I would probably not try to control the pass, but just clear it. It's not worth the risk since there is a big chance he will mess up his first touch. This is how I would love to think when playing FIFA.

Or like in your example with a lower league player taking a shot. I might not try to hit that volley or direct shot and instead try to control the ball first to make my chances of hitting the target bigger (unless it's worth the risk).

Edit: About what you and rom talks about. You make it sound like it's easy to receive a pass as long as you stand in the correct position? Or am I misunderstanding you? Even if you are position correctly you still have to make sure to position your foot, angle it, dampen the ball etc. to make a good first touch. To me that's the hard part to do without any error, but maybe I'm just misunderstanding you.