FIFA 12 Discussion Thread

In a way I see this realism talk as greater licence to say, well, why aren't EA making the balancing changes to go with the talk?
 
Clearly David Rutter doesn't accept on any level that his game is unrealistic though. It's like trying to argue that 2+2 is 4 when they continually assert it's 3.
 
I bet if Rutter would be the producer of a rally game, he would make the cars look, sound, feel and steer fantastic... but then give every car slick tires.
 
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Not to be cynical but.... ;)

Isn't this football world pretty much the same as the "new" CM, i.e. just a different menu on what was already present ( or even stripped down)?
 
That video seems like a pretty good analysis of the situation right now, certainly in terms of Fifa E3 has been a monumental failure, all they're doing is rehashing the stuff we learned before E3, don't they understand that E3 is supposed to be about announcing new and exciting innovations? About showing new and unseen footage? Not about some dudes with head mics standing on stage babbling on about stuff nobody gives a shit about...
 
nerf said:
But not manual shooting :(
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Even real life shooting is hardly "manual" though really, is it?
In your head, you decide to aim for a corner of the goal or just try to hit the target, and the outcome is down to technique (attributes) and how nicely the ball tees up for a shot - simplifying it a lot, I know, but having a pop at goal is hardly rocket science in any case.
For professional footballers it must be instinctive to know exactly where the corners of the goal are from pretty much anywhere inside shooting range, so surely it should be a given that they would be able to aim there without fail? Doesn't mean the shots should always end up there of course.

I don't think PES' camera angle suits manual controls too well either - it pans round and shows the game at a slight angle, which is quite disorientating, especially when manual control (particularly shooting) needs to be very precise.
FIFA's camera angle that shows the game at a constant perpendicular angle to the pitch is really horrible in my opinion, but I suppose it helps with manual control.
 
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Rob92 said:
Even real life shooting is hardly "manual" though really, is it?
In your head, you decide to aim for a corner of the goal or just try to hit the target, and the outcome is down to technique (attributes)
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Well, the same for passing. Its not about what you want or whats in your head, its about button skills + atributes, and manual makes that harder!
 
People prefer manual on FIFA not because it's realistic - but because the built in assists on FIFA are too assisted and don't offer enough error in passing or shooting. It can force you to play a slower, more considered game, although I do agree with Rob regarding how you think in real life. You pick a spot and hit the shot. The sensitivity of the stick exaggerates that when aiming with full manual. Even when you get good at aiming, unless you're on a behind the player camera view, your aim is not exactly where you want anyway, which negates the ability to pick exactly your spot with a full manual system.

If a semi-assisted system was used and it was harder to just ping the ball around or hit every shot on target, it would feel a lot nicer to play FIFA - AND they could tone down the goalkeepers to a realistic level.
Or FIFA could try and use player stats better and body positioning etc for calculating where a ball goes. Don't see it happening though.

Maybe assisted vs semi vs manual on FIFA should represent not how much user input is required but how much stat influence there is. That way, the arcadey type players who want a pick up and play game can play on assisted and sim players can be catered, to an extent.

As Rob said, if you're shooting on goal in real life, you don't want to put the ball near the keeper, so you aim for somewhere just inside the goal post or in a corner. It's different to manual passing or crossing where there is a full pitch to play with and you may want to play the ball into space or for someone to run onto.
 
CalcioCalabrese said:
People prefer manual on FIFA not because it's realistic - but because the built in assists on FIFA are too assisted and don't offer enough error in passing or shooting. It can force you to play a slower, more considered game, although I do agree with Rob regarding how you think in real life. You pick a spot and hit the shot. The sensitivity of the stick exaggerates that when aiming with full manual. Even when you get good at aiming, unless you're on a behind the player camera view, your aim is not exactly where you want anyway, which negates the ability to pick exactly your spot with a full manual system.

If a semi-assisted system was used and it was harder to just ping the ball around or hit every shot on target, it would feel a lot nicer to play FIFA - AND they could tone down the goalkeepers to a realistic level.
Or FIFA could try and use player stats better and body positioning etc for calculating where a ball goes. Don't see it happening though.

Maybe assisted vs semi vs manual on FIFA should represent not how much user input is required but how much stat influence there is. That way, the arcadey type players who want a pick up and play game can play on assisted and sim players can be catered, to an extent.

As Rob said, if you're shooting on goal in real life, you don't want to put the ball near the keeper, so you aim for somewhere just inside the goal post or in a corner. It's different to manual passing or crossing where there is a full pitch to play with and you may want to play the ball into space or for someone to run onto.
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Yeah, I can see the need for manual passing, and in fact I use it a lot myself on PES 2011, especially for long passing.
Even so, with the simple passes to feet or just into the stride of the recipient, it's blatantly obvious where you would want to aim the pass, so using full manual control in these situations really is just to make it more difficult as a "game" and not improve the realism.

I agree with you about the manual shooting, I just think it's a stupid feature really.
You'd have to point the stick perfectly to within a few degrees to aim the ball a few inches inside the post, often turning what should be a very simple finish into quite a difficult opportunity.
 
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azur said:
Well, the same for passing. Its not about what you want or whats in your head, its about button skills + atributes, and manual makes that harder!
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Nope, disagree and agree with Rob

With passing, you aim everywhere and anywhere. Your head the majority of the time you spot a place when you want to pass to and strike the ball with the weight you feel is needed to make the pass either to a player or into space.

Now that space and angle could be anywhere on the pitch. it Always changes. There's infinite amount angles and area's for you to pass to a teammate or into space.

Thing is when you shot, it's different. Never i believe since football began as a spot has any play at any level even intentionally aimed off target. never. I have never done that, you have never done that. Nobody has. But everyone who's played the spot has missed the target, this is obviously because of an variety of factors!

The big difference with passing is that your have a 'bearing' as if like compass in that you 'know' where the goal is and you automatically always shoot in the direction of the goal. Your ALWAYS looking to hit the ball into the same area. unlike with passing into space or to a teammate like Jimmy said. the goal never moves!

Problem with manual shooting is it limits the angle you shoot at goal because the right stick can only give you 50-60 degrees of choice to actually shoot at goal, this along with the point i made earlier.

So to summarize.

With passing you aim everywhere.

With shooting you aim at the same target just with a choice of aim left, right or center of the goal!

I think me and others out there who championed manual with FIFA 08 and 09 have created a bit of a monster :CONFUSE:
 
Any of the Game Changers on here who own a Wii should pick up a copy of PES 2011 and give it a try. You can find it for cheap now. Even though it is last gen, but you can clearly see and feel the inertia, momentum, and first touch. Animations very responsive yet has got nothing to do with skating. You can have the best of both worlds. PES 2011 on Wii can do. Why can't Fifa 12 with all its technological glory have it?

Show it to the Fifa devs, tell them how its done.

EDIT: Would actually love to read glen's take on this. Compare both Fifa 11/12's (PS3/360) and PES 2011's (Wii) inertia and momentum. See how both move. See how Fifa's transition animations work compares to PES 2011 (Wii). See that you can have inertia and momentum enabled and still move swiftly with high responsiveness.

And I'm not here to troll. I'm here to show some how important this is and that if implemented in Fifa, how it could change the whole way the game is played. It's got nothing to do with casuals imo. This is how a football game should be played.
 
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kobayashi said:
Thing is when you shot, it's different. Never i believe since football began as a spot has any play at any level even intentionally aimed off target. never. I have never done that, you have never done that. Nobody has. But everyone who's played the spot has missed the target, this is obviously because of an variety of factors!
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Are we talking IRL here? If so, I can say 100% that I've aimed off target! The ball curls doesn't it? I aim off target and then allow for the ball to curl into the net. If you don't aim off target then the ball will curl into the middle of the goal making it much easier for the keeper to save it!

So players do intentionally aim off target at times afterall. The end result they want the ball to hit the target but not sure how you can say nobody ever aims / lines up their shots off target to start with?!
 
Re: Manual shooting/controls...

Some years ago I discovered that I found the game exponentially more thrilling when I had to think about every action. When the stakes were high and each movement required consideration. Personally, for me this mindset can be traced back to around PES5.

The highest CPU difficulty on PES has long been too easy, and when you combine this with assisted controls, eventually my eyes start to glaze over. Tap pass, tap through ball, tap shoot, everything is calculated for you. It's almost like having an auto-aim in a first-person shooter.

I grabbed a third-party editor, opened the option file, browsed to the Default MLers and reduced their attributes by about 40%. It was like playing with a bunch of pub footballers, and so easily could the opposition over-power us physically and technically, that suddenly every action became critical.

If I was caught out of position, none of my players had the speed to recover. If I allowed the opponent a shooting opportunity, my crappy goalkeeper was vulnerable to being beaten. I had to create good quality chances in order to score because my strikers couldn't shoot, and I was really, really under pressure to make sure those rare chances were converted when they infrequently came along, because there might not be another. Most of all, passing speed (in particular) and passing accuracy was so low that I had to carefully consider every pass.

Nothing in football gaming before or since has equalled the joy of the moment when I bundled home my first goal of that season and stole a late, unexpected and hard-earned 1-0 win. It was a very artificial and unbalanced way to generate this feeling, but the game became far more involving, far more challenging, satisfying and enjoyable as a result.

The point is, nowadays I can get a similar level of moment-by-moment intensity by choosing Manual controls (combined with FIFA's tougher 'Legendary' difficulty), without necessitating a team comprised of wheezing grannies with mental deficiancies. I'm far more engaged and immersed in every action when I have to carefully aim & weight each ball, I can't just switch the brain off and tap-tap-tap my way out of trouble or toward goal.

(This was more applicable in 09, when Manual was less forgiving than it is now, but still applies.)

Shooting is an important part of all this, for two reasons. Firstly because the satisfaction of successfully aiming and converting the shot is incomparable to one auto-aimed for you, and what is a goal without the satisfaction? Secondly, because it raises the tension as you attempt to convert the chance. Maybe you'll hook it wide this time? Can you get it right, or will you spurn it? These are realistic emotions that you'd go through in real football, in addition to raising your gaming enjoyment.

When the real Darren Bent has a shot at goal, there's an element of knowing where the goal is, striking instincts and muscle memory... but he's no metronome - he still has to strike the ball correctly with the right amount of power. Manual shooting puts a bit more of that responsibility on you. You are controlling him, after all.

In the end, like any of the control setups, it is for some people and not for others. Such is the beauty of choice. But of course PES shouldn't allow the choice of manual shooting, much like it was never going to allow the choice of manual passing...
 
Nick Cave said:
Sent your 1-3 top issues and wants for 12, cheers for the response guys. I can still pass on some more for anyone who missed the chance...
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I'm not sure how you want to put this, maybe you'd want to elaborate more on them. I'll keep it short as I'm sure you know what I'm on about.

1. Inertia

2. Momentum

3. First touch

Thanks Nicky Nick Nic.
 
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