_anderson
Retired Fanboy
That's pretty much undeniable, doubt anyone thinks otherwise tbh.
FIFA 12 Discussion Thread
- Thread starter danyjr
- Start date
That's pretty much undeniable, doubt anyone thinks otherwise tbh.
Yes, that's obvious!
but the way i look at it.
It's like for example. Sporting Lisbon are more talented than SC Braga and say Galatasaray have more talent than Bursaspor but the later teams i mentioned have been a much better this season because they work harder, their players have better chemistry etc..
But from what i've seen, the FIFA 12 impact engine is so far ahead of what PES will have for PES 2012 there's the only gameplay element where there is no comparison and that should be a concern for Koanmi, they could get sucked into a bit of an arms race in terms of physicality! They will have to make a significant investment to get tech to match what EA have.
Then again PES will probably win on tactics compared to FIFA without in same margin as with the collisions vice versa. So it's all about HOW the technology is implemented!
Come to think of it, imagine if Seabass's team had EA's tech.
I'm still trying to get the new tackling system. I don't think I like the idea of one button auto-tackling. So what they did is just replaced auto-tackle with auto-contain automatically shadowing every move you make?
I prefer they remove auto-anything really. Defending should be an art. I never use auto-tackling in PES at all. It should be manual. Just like attacking, there is no one button to auto-dribble.
I prefer they remove auto-anything really. Defending should be an art. I never use auto-tackling in PES at all. It should be manual. Just like attacking, there is no one button to auto-dribble.
mfmaxpower
International
- 29 July 2010
Well considering they placed major emphasis on trying to convince us that the changes to the defensive systems are intended to be less automated, and more difficult and more realistic, I think there's reason enough to be cautiously optimistic for defending in 12.
Defending in 11 is absolutely terrible, and the devs seem to get that. It's really hard to imagine it being anything but an improvement.
How much of an improvement? I don't know. But like I said, from what I've seen I think the defensive systems is an area to be somewhat hopeful about. Hell, just getting rid of the auto-tackle feature alone will substantially improve the experience!
Agreed. I don't see the logic behind that one.
Auto contain is much more natural feeling than just running in to a player at the perfect attack vector.
Is it perfect who knows at the moment? Who knows.
For me just seeing players start to be less ball orientated and more focused on make a nuisance of themselves by harrying and looking to force a pass or allow you to 'get at him' and take them on in a better context than just trying to avoid a perfectly angled tackle is an improvement.
Will need to wait and see some proper gameplay to be conclusive but the steps are in the right direction.
Is it perfect who knows at the moment? Who knows.
For me just seeing players start to be less ball orientated and more focused on make a nuisance of themselves by harrying and looking to force a pass or allow you to 'get at him' and take them on in a better context than just trying to avoid a perfectly angled tackle is an improvement.
Will need to wait and see some proper gameplay to be conclusive but the steps are in the right direction.
Gab_
I agree
- 6 April 2009
But if I hold down the "contain" button and move full speed forward towards the ball, isn't that very heat missile like anyway? I guess it's better since you have to time the tackle when close, but it still sounds too easy to me if the player can mirror the moves so quickly as in the video. I can see it might be needed online since you have the delay that makes it hard to follow the opponents move though, at least it is to me.
It's an improvement over what we had, of course. But being technologically incredible doesn't mean you get things right. Containing shouldn't consist in mirroring moves. At all. They should learn from nba 2k. There you can dribble your opponent with momentum,speed and you control abilities, but you can alse defend thanks to those.
So Fifa won't get this right at least until they begin to make stats and momentum count. The same goes to the rest of the game, but I miss 2 other things that are vital to change the game into more of a sim:
- First touch and overall ball control: that is absolutely needed. Messi is a genius because he actually plays like a Fifa puppet, with the ball inches from his boot all the time. But the rest of mortal players do mistouch the ball now and then, and have variable distance touches. This is very important respecting the "contain" system. A gifted player will do a touch past the defender or to his side to gain a better position to the defender. A worse player won't have the same accuracy in the touch, making it easier for the defender who is containing to stick a leg and touch the ball (are there tackles that don't automatically give possession to the tackler? In real life, most of tackles end up with the ball loose).
- Passing: again, stats should influence passing a lot more. And passing should be related to first touch too, so you couldn't simply pass the ball around at ease.
Those 2 things are completely needed in my oppinion to make the defending system work.
So Fifa won't get this right at least until they begin to make stats and momentum count. The same goes to the rest of the game, but I miss 2 other things that are vital to change the game into more of a sim:
- First touch and overall ball control: that is absolutely needed. Messi is a genius because he actually plays like a Fifa puppet, with the ball inches from his boot all the time. But the rest of mortal players do mistouch the ball now and then, and have variable distance touches. This is very important respecting the "contain" system. A gifted player will do a touch past the defender or to his side to gain a better position to the defender. A worse player won't have the same accuracy in the touch, making it easier for the defender who is containing to stick a leg and touch the ball (are there tackles that don't automatically give possession to the tackler? In real life, most of tackles end up with the ball loose).
- Passing: again, stats should influence passing a lot more. And passing should be related to first touch too, so you couldn't simply pass the ball around at ease.
Those 2 things are completely needed in my oppinion to make the defending system work.
Gab_
I agree
- 6 April 2009
I agree. And the thing is it would probably be very easy for them to implement errors in ball control, I just don't think they realise what a big difference towards individuality it really is.
winston
Champions League
- 7 August 2005
I fully expect this game to be a disappointment.
R
Rob92
Guest
Obviously that is correct, but it doesn't contribute towards making it a realistic football game.
To make a comparison - there are movies with massive budgets, with impressive CGI/special effects, a talented cast etc. that are shit.
Cramming more tech into something doesn't make it better.
winston
Champions League
- 7 August 2005
I agree, Rob. Every new thing they proclaim leaves me cold. To my mind, they just haven't got the fundamentals right. They're building pretty roof gardens on a building with a foundation made of shit.
The new stuff will have a honeymoon period of about half and hour before that feeling sinks in that you're actually just playing the same game as the last few years.
The new stuff will have a honeymoon period of about half and hour before that feeling sinks in that you're actually just playing the same game as the last few years.
Of course you use auto-tackling in PES Lami, you have no choice, PES has auto-tackling, just like FIFA 11, automatically, and unpreventably.
Gab_ said:
You won't be able to use the 'contain' button and be close enough to tackle.
_anderson
Retired Fanboy
Spot on analogy. The problem is, just like in big budget CGI movies, people are usually and easily grabbed by the eye-candy, the plot may be shit, but everything else is there to stun people.
How far are we from an "Inception"?
If you mean I keep my finger on the one auto-tackle button so the AI can do everything for me, then no. I try to anticipate things myself and only tackle (stick a leg out) when I'm very close to the CPU, timing it right. If my timing is off then left stranded.
- Thread starter
- #526
danyjr
Banned
- 23 July 2010
This just shows how far away these two franchises are moving in terms of their goals, vision and audience. Konami are falling behind further every year from FIFA in the physics, visual and technical department to the point that I can't ever see them competing with EA in these criteria. Add this to the (exclusive) licensing EA has for major clubs, leagues and tournaments, it is safe to say that FIFA will remain the undoubtedly king in terms of sales and popularity for years to come.
PES on the other hand will remain the simulation king, focusing on tactics more than anything else and always being supported by a more cult-type fan base in the West. What is inevitable is that these two games will always be compared to each other every year and if Konami stay too far behind EA in terms of audiovisual realism and playability, the demise of PES -as was once feared in NG consoles until they stepped up their game with PES 2011, may not be impossible. Also the day Konami get their tactical part of PES wrong, they will be hit hard. At least FIFA will always have their eye candy stuff in order to make sure their game sells. Not to mention having the luxury of a big company such as EA backing them up financially. A true monopoly. Welcome to capitalism bitches!
PES on the other hand will remain the simulation king, focusing on tactics more than anything else and always being supported by a more cult-type fan base in the West. What is inevitable is that these two games will always be compared to each other every year and if Konami stay too far behind EA in terms of audiovisual realism and playability, the demise of PES -as was once feared in NG consoles until they stepped up their game with PES 2011, may not be impossible. Also the day Konami get their tactical part of PES wrong, they will be hit hard. At least FIFA will always have their eye candy stuff in order to make sure their game sells. Not to mention having the luxury of a big company such as EA backing them up financially. A true monopoly. Welcome to capitalism bitches!
_anderson
Retired Fanboy
Oh how i'd love PES to be the cult-type game again. The days they weren't looking to please the masses were the best.
Jimmy G-Force
Resident PES Fanman
There is a counter though Rod, using R2 and the opposite direction pretty much cancels out any CPU Ai auto-tackle. It is the kryptonite and I use it all the time against these single and double pressure spammers. The CPU Ai simply cannot handle that change of direction. All the very best players on PES that I have come across use this, and with that, cheap pressuring is massively reduced.
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That's not the point, the tackle is automatic in PES. You cannot choose when to tackle. There isn't a 'tackle' button in either FIFA 11 or PES 2011. Both games have the same system, shuffled a bit differently. FIFA has a 'press' button, and a jockey button, and a jockey press. PES has a 'press' button, it has a jockey press, and it has a jockey button.
X in FIFA is press
X + point at attacker is press
LT in FIFA is jockey
RT in PES is jockey
LT+X in FIFA is jockey press
X in PES is jockey press
(and X + point away from attacker is a different jockey press)
FIFA 11 and PES 11 have very similar defensive systems on this level.
PES's works a lot better than FIFA's because it doesn't have a lot of momentum problems or a really high tackle radius. This does not change the fact that PES 11 does have automated tackling, and FIFA 12 will not. You could argue that PES does not need a tackle button and that automated tackling works fine for it of course. PES certainly didn't need the defensive revolution that FIFA did.
I think PES's system could be quite a lot better, but having seen FIFA's, I'm sceptical about them getting this new system right first time.
Vieirinha
League 2
- 18 February 2011
I wonder how come the EU commitee didnt challenge the EA for the "exclusive" licensing de-facto creating a monopoly which is illegal in EU?
I never said auto-tackling isn't in PES though. I'm just pointing out that I never use it. I don't even like it. I don't really use any of that stuff you mentioned Rod. All I do is use the analog stick and the jockey, and only X (O in my case) when very close to the ball as to steal it, and sometimes I just run into the CPU.
I don't want to see any form of auto-tackling or auto-containing in any football game. I would prefer us users anticipating things. Much more exciting this way.
I'm not making my point clearly: PES doesn't have a 'tackle' button. You can't choose when to tackle - it does it automatically when it deems it a decent time to make a tackle. Same with FIFA, it works the same way. PES 2011's and FIFA 11's tackling is automated. Doesn't matter whether you press any buttons or not, the game decides when to make a tackle.
Not only do PES 2011 and FIFA 11 have auto tackle, you cannot NOT auto tackle, because it's literally the only way to tackle. We obviously mean slightly different things by auto-tackle
There is no 'make a tackle button' in either game: both games make tackles when they are close to the ball, automatically, and often very, very stupidly.
Interesting what Jimmy says about jockey and back away to prevent a tackle. I really want to be able to choose with accuracy when I put the foot in - I don't want to be constrained in the way I move so I don't tackle.
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I'm not making my point clearly: PES doesn't have a 'tackle' button. You can't choose when to tackle - it does it automatically when it deems it a decent time to make a tackle. Same with FIFA, it works the same way. PES 2011's and FIFA 11's tackling is automated. Doesn't matter whether you press any buttons or not, the game decides when to make a tackle.
Not only do PES 2011 and FIFA 11 have auto tackle, you cannot NOT auto tackle, because it's literally the only way to tackle. We obviously mean slightly different things by auto-tackle
There is no 'make a tackle button' in either game: both games make tackles when they are close to the ball, automatically, and often very, very stupidly.
Oh obviously yes. Both are auto in that sense of course. I just meant that I do not keep my finger on it and let it do the run and gun automatically. That's lazy defending.
Yep, and that's the point which has changed with FIFA 12 - in FIFA 12 you are going to choose precisely when to tackle, which I think is a great change. It's a pity that there are these concerns about the contain function, which I've said a fair few times I don't really think needs to exist!
Still, there is a fair while to go before this game releases, hopefully they'll heed the warnings about the contain.
Jimmy G-Force
Resident PES Fanman
I'm not making my point clearly: PES doesn't have a 'tackle' button. You can't choose when to tackle - it does it automatically when it deems it a decent time to make a tackle. Same with FIFA, it works the same way. PES 2011's and FIFA 11's tackling is automated. Doesn't matter whether you press any buttons or not, the game decides when to make a tackle.
Not only do PES 2011 and FIFA 11 have auto tackle, you cannot NOT auto tackle, because it's literally the only way to tackle. We obviously mean slightly different things by auto-tackle
There is no 'make a tackle button' in either game: both games make tackles when they are close to the ball, automatically, and often very, very stupidly.
Interesting what Jimmy says about jockey and back away to prevent a tackle. I really want to be able to choose with accuracy when I put the foot in - I don't want to be constrained in the way I move so I don't tackle.
Thats exactly what I mean though Rod, unless your getting 'gangbanged' with pressure, i.e. X and O, and in your opponent's box, as thats where you can be barged/auto-tackled off the ball by a collective of defenders, then you will need to press X to stick your foot for the tackle. So in that regard, apart from the box example, it's not really that auto. Or should I say it's easily countered once you know.
I have played some really good players in MLO that not only play fair with lesser players, but also give me more than I can handle with the way they retain possession using R2. They also never sprint in this scenario, so the ball is always tight to them, leaving it very difficult to dispossess them when they use R2 and a direction to drop a shoulder. You can pressure them as much as you like, but if they are proficient with this skill, it's almost impossible to auto-tackle them. I've learnt so much from these players, and mindless pressure doesnt work. Not only that, they draw your players in, then use the space that's been created to rip you a new asshole.
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I hope they give us the option to switch it off then and rely solely manual tackling, for us sim maniacs.
sincover
Championship
- 16 August 2010
Thats exactly what I mean though Rod, unless your getting 'gangbanged' with pressure, i.e. X and O, and in your opponent's box, as thats where you can be barged/auto-tackled off the ball by a collective of defenders, then you will need to press X to stick your foot for the tackle. So in that regard, apart from the box example, it's not really that auto. Or should I say it's easily countered once you know.
I have played some really good players in MLO that not only play fair with lesser players, but also give me more than I can handle with the way they retain possession using R2. They also never sprint in this scenario, so the ball is always tight to them, leaving it very difficult to dispossess them when they use R2 and a direction to drop a shoulder. You can pressure them as much as you like, but if they are proficient with this skill, it's almost impossible to auto-tackle them. I've learnt to much from these players, and mindless pressure doesnt work. Not only that, they draw your players in, then use the space that's been created to rip you a new asshole.
True, but mostly when playing against human players. Playing against the AI is a different can of worms altogether. Both PES and FIFA rely on gangbanging *snicker* to dispossess you, especially when you enter the box.
Ultimately I would love to just have a tackle button (didn't the old FIFA games have this?). I can already jockey on my own in both games, why not just give me the means to stick a leg out exactly when I want? The CPU can contextually handle what type of tackle it is, I just want a 1-1 relation between button press and animation.
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You can kind of say the same with FIFA though. You can prevent it tackling by never getting quite close enough to tackle - this does mean standing about two miles away given FIFA's tackle radius...
In both games I still find a number of occasions where my player will tackle when I don't want them to - fortunately PES seems to neglect standing tackles when it comes to giving penalties so it never punishes me that hard.
Lami said:
Who knows, they do seem to like adding new assistance options each year.
Jimmy G-Force
Resident PES Fanman
True, that tactic certainly doesnt work as well or anywhere near as well against the CPU as it does against a human. Although that goal I posted against Top Player CPU Ai in my CL campaign with Igbaza proves it is possible, just not consistently.
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- Thread starter
- #540
danyjr
Banned
- 23 July 2010
EU did fine Microsoft for bundling Internet Explorer with Windows because it gave them an unjust advantage against other web browsers. As much as I don't like Microsoft, I think they had a point. Why they can't bundle a software, for free with their operating system is beyond my understanding. Also EA Sports' has a contract with the Football Association to get exclusive licensing. A legal contract that is and there's nothing Konami, or anyone for that matter can do about it, unless of course they are willing to pay the FA more than what EA offer, which is impossible.