Fifa 11 Xbox 360/PS3

[ibra77]

Perhaps I'm not understanding what people are complaining about when the talk about the pace of the game. I understand that as what goes on in the centre of the pitch. What can you expect in the last third of the pitch but constant challenges? And I am quite apt to fend off challenges and I don't experience the problem of being run over.

I'm quite lost on that last point. The game has different difficulty settings, so what is so difficult about having different types of games within one difficulty setting? The CPU tries to win the match on all levels but that doesn't make world class the same as legendary. Not sure I understood you correctly.

Never said you said the play to lose. The point about exhibitions is that they don't count for much so it's impossible that they are as competetive.

 

[romagnoli]

Exhibition mode has no reason to be a difficulty level in itself. That is the point. Friendlies in a Career Mode? Sure. But a one-off match devoid of context, therefore cannot have the context of friendly vs competitive match applied to it. It is nothing other than a vertical slice of gameplay.

 

[Suuuuupertalk]

All I can say really is that the videos I posted of me pulling off cool dribbles with the likes of Walcott, Messi, Arshavin, are utterly impossible in CM. The games were just as difficult but in totally different ways. In friendlies, you can still have fun. In CM, sure, there are ways to win, but rather than playing in an expansive, creative way, the completely ridiculous ability of the AI to steam into tackles with perfect accuracy means you can only win by playing the game round the AI's shitty tackling system.

What are EA thinking? Bring out personality plus, which in friendlies is really apparent, then render it all but pointless in CM. Seriously, playing with a 6"4 target man earlier today was totally pointless. Play the ball up to him and almost every time he'd just fall over as soon as anyone made any semblance of bodily contact with him. It's scripted bullshit designed to make competitive games appear harder. It is clearly scripted because if you play a friendly, the same player takes on a personality of his own. He can hold the ball, use his body weight, shrug the AI off the ball etc. These are supposed to be the benefits of including a huge target man in your team, but CM totally removes this. I have a ton of videos from earlier showing my target man being repeatedly knocked over by the slightest of nudges, by AI defenders half his size.

Fifa's CM is so bad this year it's laughable. There's bugger all to do in it, player growth is useless, half the top players who changed clubs in the summer (in real life) are bugged so you can never, ever sign them, and now I realise they screwed up the core gameplay in that mode too. There is literally no scope to do anything fun. Nothing creative comes off beyond 'working' the specific way the AI is set up, and you can't even build a new team properly. In short, friendlies feel like you're playing creative football, CM and competitive matches vs the AI are nothing more than dull exercises in working around overpowered AI routines.

Seriously, people would be better off inventing their own bloody league and just playing friendlies, it's just silly. And yeah my posts must seem bipolar, I discover a way of playing the game that seems amazing fun, then it's almost ripped away with the realisation that the game doesn't play like it's supposed to when in one of it's game modes.

 

[EatonTJ]

All I can say really is that the videos I posted of me pulling off cool dribbles with the likes of Walcott, Messi, Arshavin, are utterly impossible in CM. The games were just as difficult but in totally different ways. In friendlies, you can still have fun. In CM, sure, there are ways to win, but rather than playing in an expansive, creative way, the completely ridiculous ability of the AI to steam into tackles with perfect accuracy means you can only win by playing the game round the AI's shitty tackling system.

What are EA thinking? Bring out personality plus, which in friendlies is really apparent, then render it all but pointless in CM. Seriously, playing with a 6"4 target man earlier today was totally pointless. Play the ball up to him and almost every time he'd just fall over as soon as anyone made any semblance of bodily contact with him. It's scripted bullshit designed to make competitive games appear harder. It is clearly scripted because if you play a friendly, the sme player takes on a personality of his own. He can hold the ball, use his body weight, shrug the AI off the ball etc. These are supposed to be the benefits of including a huge target man in your team, but CM totally removes this. I have a ton of videos from earlier showing my target man being repeatedly knocked over by the slightest of nudges, by AI defenders half his size.

Fifa'sCMis so bad this year it's laughable. There's bugger all to do in it, player growth is useless, halfthe top players who changed clubs in the summer are bugged so you can never, ever sign them, and now I realise they screw up the core gameplay in that mode too. There is literally no scope to do anything fun. Nothing creative comes off beyond 'working' the specific way the AI is set up, and you can't even build a new team properly.

Seriously, people would be better off inventing their own bloody league and just playing friendlies, it's just silly.

You can do the same stuff in career mode that you can in exhibition mode, not sure what you are on about. Are you not checking accumulated player fatigue before each game? Are you starting tired players in CM games or something? IF they are exhausted at the start, they really can't do much of anything as the game goes on, but otherwise, you can do all the same dribbling/shielding etc in both modes just fine.

I agree with you on your points about players being unrealistically unbuyable in certain situations (recently transferred, listed for loan only, retiring, "loyal" despite never getting a game, etc) and about a weird player growth system (players never grow through practice/age, seemingly only through playing, so you are forced to play youngsters far too often just to get growth).

However, the "core gameplay" in both modes seems the same to me. Like I've posted previously, I don't play much single player exhibition, but I've played a shit ton of CM... and you can do all the dribbling/shielding/jostling you want. I disagree with your assessment.

 

[mfmaxpower]

Perhaps I'm not understanding what people are complaining about when the talk about the pace of the game. I understand that as what goes on in the centre of the pitch. What can you expect in the last third of the pitch but constant challenges? And I am quite apt to fend off challenges and I don't experience the problem of being run over.

I'm quite lost on that last point. The game has different difficulty settings, so what is so difficult about having different types of games within one difficulty setting? The CPU tries to win the match on all levels but that doesn't make world class the same as legendary. Not sure I understood you correctly.

Never said you said the play to lose. The point about exhibitions is that they don't count for much so it's impossible that they are as competetive.

Play PES for a while, come back to FIFA and you may better understand about pace of the game - I play -1 in PES, and FIFA's Slow is a bit frantic in comparison.

 

[Suuuuupertalk]

You can do the same stuff in career mode that you can in exhibition mode, not sure what you are on about. Are you not checking accumulated player fatigue before each game? Are you starting tired players in CM games or something? IF they are exhausted at the start, they really can't do much of anything as the game goes on, but otherwise, you can do all the same dribbling/shielding etc in both modes just fine.

I agree with you on your points about players being unrealistically unbuyable in certain situations (recently transferred, listed for loan only, retiring, "loyal" despite never getting a game, etc) and about a weird player growth system (players never grow through practice/age, seemingly only through playing, so you are forced to play youngsters far too often just to get growth).

However, the "core gameplay" in both modes seems the same to me. Like I've posted previously, I don't play much single player exhibition, but I've played a shit ton of CM... and you can do all the dribbling/shielding/jostling you want. I disagree with your assessment.

I don't think any of my players were tired, their stamina before the match was pretty much full. I'm just not finding that the AI holds off when you slow dribble like in a friendly. If you don't have the same problem then that's great for you, you'll certainly get more out of the game mode than I will. But what I definitely have found over a series of CM matches, is that not a single example my previous videos have shown, where you can wrong foot players and dribble (check out the ones of Iniesta dribbling rings round the AI) are impossible for me to do. In the same situation in CM the AI will home in on you like a guided missile, totally unconcerned with whatever you're doing, bash into you and knock you over, even if the player you're controlling has a speciality in body strength and shielding the ball.

 

[TikTikTikTikTik]

I've always felt that the game also had a cup unrealistic boost during CM. Both domestic and international. Same as exibition being easier then CM matches.

Watching those vids LT, I was wondering why the AI was being so weak (as you were playing at a high difficulty level) but now the exibition aspect explains it.

 

[Suuuuupertalk]

Yeah I just restarted a CM with Marseille, to see if there was any difference in the way the game plays out to the Premier League. None at all.

I think I've nailed down what EA are trying to do with CM. I played a match against Paris SG on a neutral venue, the game let me play my slower dribbling game to an extent, I won 3-0 and all in all was very enjoyable. The next game, a home match vs Lens, saw me dominate the game, kind of allowing the same sort of style of play, but without it really coming off seeing as I don't have any top rated dribblers in my team. I scraped a deserved 1-0 win.

Then, my third match was away to Bordeaux. Suddenly the game seemed transformed into the crap a lot of us have been complaining about. It was basically 16 long tedious minutes of this; win the ball, pass it around, mainly to anyone who'll have it because you're being hounded down by packs of players who still oddly seem capable of not being caught out of position thanks to limitless amounts of sprinting. I pass the ball around, get stab tackled. Win the ball, get stab tackled. Win the ball, get stab tackled. Win the ball, get past a defender, somehow get nailed by an impossibly perfect sliding challenges from behind. Win the ball, get stab tackled.............for 16 long minutes. Joyless, dull, flat.

It's EA trying to make away matches 'harder', by ramping up the AI pressure and impossibly perfect tackling. All sense of fun goes totally out of the window, and working a goal is like working a way around an AI routine.

Why not making away matches harder by actually making the home team attack you? Isn't defending a large part of playing away from home? I was in no danger of losing, camped in their half for 16 long minutes, winning the ball, getting stab tackled, over and over and over again. I finished with 65% of the ball, in an away match to a regular Champions League team, with bionic defenders and no intentions of attacking beyond the odd long ball breakaway.

EA have designed this game so that every match you play in CM feels the same - you against a generic AI that is set out not to lose the game at all costs.

 

[ibra77]

I'm playing two CM's at the same time, one in england and one in Italy. To me the difference is unmistakable. Less time on the ball in england. I've got my VP on both teams and I've had to change my style of play 180 degrees. My first couple of games I wasn't use to the pace and kept getting caught in possession and litterally bullied off of the ball with my CM - a role had become completely accustomed to in Italy.

I find it tougher to break down the defence but easier to deal with the offence in Italy. Easier to break down the defense in england with slick passing moves but offense is harder to stop. In England their is also more space once you manage to evade a couple of tackles. Lot's of 4-1, 3-1, 4-2 scores in England as opposed to the 1-0 2-1 that I get in Italy. Even beat blackpool 6-1 (only to lose the next game to west brom or something), I never won by that margin in Italy. It's clear as day to me that there is less room for complacency and mistakes in England too. Lose about an equal amount of games overall.
You could argue that it's a million different things but to me the difference is clear without even making any tweaks to custom tactics.

 

[henrys hand]

I like Fifa 11 on xbox360 after patch and using semi-passing and most other controls on manual, and with slow gamespeed.

It's not perfect:

- Players glide too much. And more control over the players' movements would be nice, like it is in reality.
- Players have too little inertia.
- Tackling is too easy and rewarding for me and my opponent.
- Individuality and tactics are not deep enough.
- Zipping pass-possibilities are missing.

But a lot of things are very good:

- Animation and physics are awesome.
- Players' AI is aware and reactive.
- Playerswitching works reliable.
- Goalkeeper is reliable (with one exception: He is not interested at preventing corner-ball)
- Atmosphere is great.
- Penalty-camera is from behind the player.
- Nets can be set to be regular.

Overall I think it's a step or two above PES 2011, that I also play, which has better individuality, less gliding, more and deeper tactics, better unpredictability, zipping-passes, but is botched down by an inferior animation-, physics- and AI-engine (players are not aware enough), as well as having issues with player-switching and atmosphere.

I'm curious how PES 2012 and Fifa 12 will play out, it should be interesting as Konami wants to close the gap on the animation- and physics-areas, but this year Fifa 11 wins out.

 

[Suuuuupertalk]

Gave this game one last go tonight and it left me seething with rage. I played some more CM with Marseille, and the games were simply ridiculous. I'd take control of a short pass with a technically decent player, control the ball, ensuring I keep my body position in between the ball and the AI defender. 100% of the time, the AI defender would just sprint from behind and straight into the back of me, knocking my player absolutely flying onto the floor, and runs off with the ball like I wasn't even there. It's a complete joke. All this stuff about "keep your body position between the player and the ball" etc works fine in friendlies, but in CM on higher difficulties it's absolute rubbish. The AI takes the ball by force by repeatedly knocking your players over and getting away without a foul being called.

I've had enough of this 'move the ball about', 'be patient' stuff I keep reading about the game. I do this. In friendlies it works brilliantly. In CM you almost have to play ping pong passing simply to bypass the insane tackling and hoards of players sometimes running around in groups of FOUR. Byapass them with some quick passing and they STILL manage to get back into position by virtue that the game lets them sprint at full speed without any kind of limit.

Is is remotely possible for your player, no matter how big or small, to go into a tackle with the AI and not fall over? I mean seriously. The way the AI overbalances the physical challenges in its favour just to make the game harder is pathetic. Even if you're shielding the ball, the AI has a variety of ways of knocking you over. It can run 'through' you like you weren't even there, jostle side by side with you then hurl his upper body into you, literally knocking you 3 feet to the right of the ball, and looks like common assault rather than a tackle. It can also clip your heels from behind causing you to stumble, and do that kind of ninja 'chop' outstretched leg tackle that ALWAYS leaves your player on the floor.

In friendlies, these things don't happen half as much. If you're travelling slowly, with the ball still under control, the right player can use his body strength and compete with a physical challenge. It makes using Rooney, for example, advantageous and able to dribble in dangerous areas. Not so in CM. The AI has no regard for what you're doing, it just knocks you clean on the floor.

Take these two videos for example. Both are in friendlies. I can shield the ball using my body position and close control for added balance, giving me upper body strength to fend off the AI.

YouTube - a

YouTube - IMG 0384

Now, compare similar situations with playing in Career Mode, same difficulty. The AI just rams through you, pushes, you, whatever it needs to do.

YouTube - 1

YouTube - 2

YouTube - 3

YouTube - 4

Okay, so the last one I turn into the defender and show him the ball, but seriously look at how and why he ends up flying into the air. He's hardly travelling, yet is launched in a way that contradicts even gravity itself. It's a farce. 99.9% of all tackles in this by the AI result in you upended onto the floor, or pushed miles off the ball. It's physical bullying by the AI and it ruins the game, and any kind of realism that goes with it. That Messi video I posted where he realistically uses his upper body strength to shield the ball and make space, well, try that in a CM match at the ramped up AI means you can forget about it. All you can do it release the ball early or end up on the floor. And it might just be me, but a football game where you have to get rid of the ball as soon as anyone comes within five feet of you is useless.

Every match in CM is spent having a bizarre amount of possession, up to a massive 70%, camped in the AI's half, getting nowhere against at least 10 men sitting no further than 30-40 yards from their own goal, rampaging into tackles with no sense of realistic timing, skill, nothing. Neither then does the AI have the ability to keep the ball itself, so all it does is try to score the exact same goals over and over again, while mostly winning the ball, letting you have it back, then winning it again in brutal fashion. Over and over, game after game.

Yet while the AI can do this to you, thus completely ruining any sense of realism, or being in control of a passing move that doesn't involve stupid looking one touch passing, the referee REPEATEDLY calls for fouls against me for performing what looks like a perfectly timed stab tackle with no bodily contact whatsoever.

FIFA 11 has the absolute worst sense of what should simulate 'difficulty'. In it's case, it simply means making tackling and pressure beyond what you even see against exploiters online, and occasionally make it score a goal via the exact same move, cross and header. It's so pathetic it made me switch off a CM game mid-match.

I now totally agree with Mfmax now. Both PES2011 and FIFA11 are unbelievably messed up games. EA's crap engine is unable to go any further in terms of realistic AI and is masking this by making the game 'difficult' through unbalancing the two sets of players' strength. That's the sort of trick games pulled back in the days of the SNES. PES2011 is far less frustrating until you repeatedly get the game take all control away from your player while in control of the ball, or make your defenders run out of the way of a through pass, or make your goalkeeper randomly stand still and watch the ball roll into the empty net.

Technically both are better than ever before. Yet why do I find them more unrealistic, bugged, and frustrating to play than ever before? Maybe because I try more than ever to play in a realistic way, and the game just doesn't cater for that. Retaining the ball under an AI challenge, as I've argued, is a total mess. Turn away from the defender? He'll just clip you heels and get away with it, or outright foul you in the process.

Like I've posted before, the game is close to being great. Friendly matches show that. But this artificial ramping up of the AI"s physical game completely and utterly ruins the whole game experience. What else is there to do in the game? I mean seriously. I refuse to play online because of the pressure and strong tackle abuse. I CAN play friendlies, which are great. But then I also can't play any offline mode because CM is bugged to shit. There's no proper player growth, you can't even buy half of the most famous players in the game, ever, and that's not to mention other people who've had their game micro pause repeatedly since the last patch. Oh, and now I find that EA decide to make the AI in CM play like it's some kind of 'online exploiter' simulator.

I even tried playing as my VP and it was utterly dreadful. It's almost entirely just a case of you standing there watching the two teams repeatedly run into eachother until you try and win the game entirely on your own. Brilliant.

Think I'm out as far as football games go this year. Both are bug laden messes.

 

[mfmaxpower]

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/290230/interviews/fifa-12-its-a-huge-challenge/

Reading shit like that has me starting to hate Gary Paterson. He speaks of FIFA's hardcore fans as if they are a nuisance and nothing more. As a fan of football games that must be the most dispiriting article I've ever read, does absolutely nothing for my hopes of next year, and I can't help but want the worst for EA when I read crap like that.

 

[gameklip]

LTFC: You've gone through the same gamut of emtions that I did with this game in a short period :lol

It is so close to awesomeness but then it fails you epically. You can never truly feel like you "get it".

EA have A LOT to work on for Fifa12. Although I can see that one being one of the lower sellers coming off the back of this game. Thet've lost many gamers trust with the shoddy servers and promises of greatness. Pro Passing and Personality+ are BARELY there. Inertia will probably come with a new generation but personality is in PES so there's no reason why it can't be represented better in FIFA.

 

[henrys hand]

http://www.computerandvideogames.com/290230/interviews/fifa-12-its-a-huge-challenge/

Reading shit like that has me starting to hate Gary Paterson. He speaks of FIFA's hardcore fans as if they are a nuisance and nothing more. As a fan of football games that must be the most dispiriting article I've ever read, does absolutely nothing for my hopes of next year, and I can't help but want the worst for EA when I read crap like that.

What were the hardcore players' main
concerns?

The two main areas - bar bugs and minor exploits, which we're on top of - are what they call 'ping-pong' passing, and high pressure. So if you play online a lot - the really good players will pass, pass, pass and when they defend, they'll just be high pressure and sprinting at you the whole time.

So the pressure's too strong, fatigue isn't strong enough, passing is too easy. We changed the fatigue model and I think we've got some success, but not as much as the hardcore want.

We also added pro-passing with more contextual error and attribute affects. We made some progress, but some ideas didn't make it. Like changing defending to be less easy, and more tactical. Again, we have to make a game for everyone. That's the challenge for us.
...

How does the critical and commercial success shape your thinking for FIFA 12?

It's a huge challenge. Do we change it up? Fundamentally change how you defend? Or shoot or pass?

This year we might have 8.5 million users or so who know what they're playing and they enjoy that.

If we mix it up and say 'there is no pressure button', how are people going to be able to defend?

Damn, they know exactly what we want and deliberately don't do it in order to stay mainstream, that's hugely frustrating...

I just hope Konami gets their technical side in shape and come up with something to compete with EA's animation-, physics- and AI-engine, cause I have the feeling Konami is more interested to cater to hardcore-players.. if they could just hurdle their technological inferiority.

 

[henrys hand]

Here's a video showing Pato's really nice goal against Napoli from yesterday's game:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ewZEHfFbDAM

Look at the pressure the two defenders put upon Pato and imagine what would have happened in game.

 

[nerf]

"If we mix it up and say 'there is no pressure button', how are people going to be able to defend?"

What. The. F**k.

Tell you what, Gary, why not do away with having to control your player when he has the ball too? How about an auto-dribble button, where you just hold A and it dribbles towards goal for you, automatically avoiding defenders on the way? I mean, if you mix it up and say 'there is no auto-dribble button', how are people going to be able to run with the ball?

And let's have an auto-goal button, where you hold X and your player runs into a good position to automatically release a shot aimed at the top corner of the net? I mean, if you mix it up and say 'there is no auto-goal button', how are people going to be able to score?

So the whole concept of defending is purely just about pressure is it? Well, he is Scottish I guess...

 

[romagnoli]

They really could do with some arabic commentary next year. And chinese too.

 

[henrys hand]

Apparantely a patch is in the works for Fifa 11 that should fix " two of the biggest issues the community has been asking us to look at.":

http://forum.ea.com/uk/posts/list/1950/56764.page#2609924

Now what could be the two biggest issues the community asked to be fixed? Could it be player-growth in CM, could it be the unrealistic tackling, pressure, run-spamming?

Someone posted there a hilarious reply:

The patch is called Fifa12 it will be available in october and will come with NEW free bugs and glitches but dont worry a patch will be released 2 months later that will fix nothing.

EA SPORTS its NOT in the game!!!!

 

[Placebo]

Now what could be the two biggest issues the community asked to be fixed? Could it be player-growth in CM

Romily said on Twitter it's not growth sadly.

@RomilyBroad is player growth for under 23 year olds in CM something you are looking to fix?

@dom_bell for the future, displaying that info better - for sure. Right now be sure to look at attributes as well as overall.

 

[TikTikTikTikTik]

@ LTFC re the new vids,

That's the game I play!

Wonder what the new patch has,...and if it will actually make any difference. Would be nice to have more balanced defending and some decent AI attacking play. However I can't help but think it will be some generic crap and some online stuff.

You can tell from this release that, sadly, they seem to be developing the single player to be more consistant with the online play. Ridiculous pressure being standard, the annoying striker always hanging about for a goalkick.

The article with Paterson wasn't especially positive, but then he did say they wanted to be more hardcore but are looking at balancing it. However if past experiences are anything to go by we all have to hope Konami have worked their arses off this year.

 

[nerf]

In response to romagnoli's request from last week:

I know that's an absolute fuckton of stuff right there but I do want to go direct to Gary P with something and I doubt I'd get much about this from the EA forums without the previous few pages of back-and-forth we've had here.

There are two things that I think are the most important. One is to address the balance of the benefit of speed, the other is to reduce the effectiveness of constant use of the pressure button. So:

1. Compromise ability at high speed:

- Reduce effective control of the ball when sprint-dribbling. Heavier touches overall, and each touch should vary slightly in weight and angle to be less predictable.
- Reduce accuracy/consistency when attempting actions at high speed. More on this in point 3.
- Momentum: Increase the penalty for sharp changes of direction at high speed. Particularly with the ball, but also (to a slightly lesser degree) without the ball.
- Balance: At full sprint, you are lighter on your feet and easier to tip over.

2. Empower ability at low speed:

- Balance: Improve the natural ability of the dribbler to shield the ball at slow speeds. Intrinsically more robust against challenges at slow speeds. A defender should really need to be 'ball-side' of a slower dribbler to make a succesful tackle, or he'll fail/foul.
- Reinstate the RT-shield that was in the demo, it was more effective than the RT-shield in the full game. You could instigate it when not quite stationary, which made it great when avoiding a tackle, and it seemed better at holding opponents off than the current one.
- When dribbling at slow speeds, slightly increase the frequency of touches on the ball for even easier control. Things like the LT-dragback could be performed slightly quicker too.

3. Emphasise Composure:

(Edit to say: I know there's already a Composure attribute in the database, there's just no tangible evidence whatsoever of it in-game.)

In the penalty-kick system we have a composure bar. I'd like to extend something similar to outfield play.

When a player is composed (green), he's more accurate/better in everything he does. When a player is not composed (red), he suffers an accuracy penalty to his attributes (there should probably be yellow/orange intermediate stages too). This composure meter would be based primarily on current movement speed, but also the player's Composure attribute, the proximity of opponents... maybe even match context and fatigue. There are plenty of possibilities, but its main function would be to encourage people to not play at maximum speed all the time, and secondly to value space.

So a composed player would be more accurate with shots/passes/etc, more reliable with his touch, even more precise with his tackling. The opposite would be true when not composed. If you figure out that holding sprint turns your composure level red and reduces your end product, you will be less likely to hammer that sprint trigger. It encourages analog tweaking of the trigger and use of the LT instead, to slow it down and gain an accuracy boost.

Communicating this would be, as always, important. Like the penalty-kick composure meter, you could draw something permanently on the HUD on/beneath the name bar. You could even use the entire name bar as a composure indicator by changing its colour, and do a similar thing with the selection indicator above the player's head (although an issue with local multiplayer there). However it's done, I get to see that if I hold the sprint trigger, my little composure icon/bar goes red. Simples.

A missed shot/pass that failed at low composure could be pointed out as "rushed" in the commentary (although relying on audio is not a great idea). A quick and easy Arena tutorial would help greatly.

Animations, too. A shot/pass/tackle/header anim performed with low composure could be more of a stretching, falling-over kind of effort rather than a steady, balanced strike/whatever.

Ultimately though, it's a pretty fundamental football concept that anyone who has played the sport is familiar with. If you can sufficiently feel it and see it in-game, I reckon it would be easy for anyone to understand without having to "learn how to play for ten hours before you can suss it out". Most importantly it would help to redress this 1,000mph frantic pace that the game seems to encourage.

4. Remove auto-pressure:

If you mix it up and say there is no pressure button, how will people defend? By jockeying. By valuing their position and their timing. This auto-homing-and-tackle button just has to go, the game is genuinely more enjoyable when the use of it is refused.

- Keep the auto-jockey (presently LT+A) and make it the primary tool for defenders.
- Similarly, Secondary Pressure should be a 'close down only' command. The second player should not commit to the tackle, only jockey and block.
- Attempting a succesful standing tackle should require reasonable timing of the Stand Tackle button... exactly the same as how Slide Tackle already operates. Trying to Stand Tackle from a poor angle should often result in a foul, exactly how Slide Tackle already operates.
- In combination with the Composure feature, players will learn that just staying close to and goal-side of the attacker will benefit them by reducing the attacker's effectiveness.
- Could further empower the defender's ability to shot-block and shoulder-jostle when jockeying, and reduce the ability to do these things when sprinting.

Basically, make defending more about being in position and staying goal-side, rather than about trying to snatch the ball back ASAP like it's a schoolyard game of 'tig'.

5. Multiply the rate/effects of Fatigue

...so that it actually matters at all. Would help reduce all the constant sprinting.

 

[Suuuuupertalk]

@ LTFC re the new vids,

That's the game I play!

Wonder what the new patch has,...and if it will actually make any difference. Would be nice to have more balanced defending and some decent AI attacking play. However I can't help but think it will be some generic crap and some online stuff.

You can tell from this release that, sadly, they seem to be developing the single player to be more consistant with the online play. Ridiculous pressure being standard, the annoying striker always hanging about for a goalkick.

The article with Paterson wasn't especially positive, but then he did say they wanted to be more hardcore but are looking at balancing it. However if past experiences are anything to go by we all have to hope Konami have worked their arses off this year.

Paterson's interview is an absolute crock of shit. He's basically alluding to the fact that the game doesn't really need changing all that much because, in their eyes it seems, good sales equates to a good game. Well, it doesn't. Good sales are down to a shocking lack of choice in the market and official licences, nothing more. He gives the impression that those who make FIFA are smugly sitting there thinking that they're champion games designers, beause everyone loves and buys their game. The reality is that EA muscled their way into the market, bought the licences, hammered advertising and have got into a position where, due to money and money alone, they have a monopoly on the genre. People buy the game because apart from PES, there is no other choice at all. So, no, Gary, FIFA isn't the people's choice, it's almost their ONLY choice.

He says "We changed the fatigue model and I think we've got some success, but not as much as the hardcore want". Bollocks. Over the course of four FIFA games I've owned, the stamina has altered in such a tiny way that you'd never notice. EA don't want to fix the stamina issue, because the game engine can't cope with any other style of play. Paterson has just revealed the way the series will continue to go down, and it's with the majority it seems who want, and enjoy, playing in a ridiculous, unrealistic manner both online and offline. They're the main people who buy the game, but screw you EA if you're then gonna sit back in your chairs and proclaim the game to be amazing. As for the reviews that everyone gives the game year after year, well, money talks.

Besides, I don't know why that interview surprises me in the least. This is the third consecutive game that EA have released littered with bugs. I know someone who makes games for EA, and trust me, even when people point out bugs, if the game's close to completion, EA don't give a shit.

I also agree with Nerf's post above. There are so many problems that need improving in terms of how the real game is played out, things that I feel could be done, but EA see that millions buy the game so must be well happy with how it plays. I love how Paterson says that they added stuff this year to cancel out ping pong passing, then ramp up the AI in offline modes so much that you practically have to play that way to avoid being knocked over.

I'll try the FIFA12 demo when it comes out, but then the FIFA11 demo played significantly different to the final retail version so I won't even take the demo as a reason to buy the game. On the demo, the AI defenders didn't regularly perform common assault on your players, and didn't have a miraculous ability to win every single challenge it makes with ludicrously perfect timing. It also didn't just run 'through' you to get to the ball, and neither did it reveal the fact that the game's main Career Mode was fundamentally fucked.

Why oh why can't 2k games make a football sim like their basketball games...

 

[henrys hand]

In response to romagnoli's request from last week:


There are two things that I think are the most important. One is to address the balance of the benefit of speed, the other is to reduce the effectiveness of constant use of the pressure button. So:

1. Compromise ability at high speed:

- Reduce effective control of the ball when sprint-dribbling. Heavier touches overall, and each touch should vary slightly in weight and angle to be less predictable.
- Reduce accuracy/consistency when attempting actions at high speed. More on this in point 3.
- Momentum: Increase the penalty for sharp changes of direction at high speed. Particularly with the ball, but also (to a slightly lesser degree) without the ball.
- Balance: At full sprint, you are lighter on your feet and easier to tip over.

2. Empower ability at low speed:

- Balance: Improve the natural ability of the dribbler to shield the ball at slow speeds. Intrinsically more robust against challenges at slow speeds. A defender should really need to be 'ball-side' of a slower dribbler to make a succesful tackle, or he'll fail/foul.
- Reinstate the RT-shield that was in the demo, it was more effective than the RT-shield in the full game. You could instigate it when not quite stationary, which made it great when avoiding a tackle, and it seemed better at holding opponents off than the current one.
- When dribbling at slow speeds, slightly increase the frequency of touches on the ball for even easier control. Things like the LT-dragback could be performed slightly quicker too.

3. Emphasise Composure:

(Edit to say: I know there's already a Composure attribute in the database, there's just no tangible evidence whatsoever of it in-game.)

In the penalty-kick system we have a composure bar. I'd like to extend something similar to outfield play.

When a player is composed (green), he's more accurate/better in everything he does. When a player is not composed (red), he suffers an accuracy penalty to his attributes (there should probably be yellow/orange intermediate stages too). This composure meter would be based primarily on current movement speed, but also the player's Composure attribute, the proximity of opponents... maybe even match context and fatigue. There are plenty of possibilities, but its main function would be to encourage people to not play at maximum speed all the time, and secondly to value space.

So a composed player would be more accurate with shots/passes/etc, more reliable with his touch, even more precise with his tackling. The opposite would be true when not composed. If you figure out that holding sprint turns your composure level red and reduces your end product, you will be less likely to hammer that sprint trigger. It encourages analog tweaking of the trigger and use of the LT instead, to slow it down and gain an accuracy boost.

Communicating this would be, as always, important. Like the penalty-kick composure meter, you could draw something permanently on the HUD on/beneath the name bar. You could even use the entire name bar as a composure indicator by changing its colour, and do a similar thing with the selection indicator above the player's head (although an issue with local multiplayer there). However it's done, I get to see that if I hold the sprint trigger, my little composure icon/bar goes red. Simples.

A missed shot/pass that failed at low composure could be pointed out as "rushed" in the commentary (although relying on audio is not a great idea). A quick and easy Arena tutorial would help greatly.

Animations, too. A shot/pass/tackle/header anim performed with low composure could be more of a stretching, falling-over kind of effort rather than a steady, balanced strike/whatever.

Ultimately though, it's a pretty fundamental football concept that anyone who has played the sport is familiar with. If you can sufficiently feel it and see it in-game, I reckon it would be easy for anyone to understand without having to "learn how to play for ten hours before you can suss it out". Most importantly it would help to redress this 1,000mph frantic pace that the game seems to encourage.

4. Remove auto-pressure:

If you mix it up and say there is no pressure button, how will people defend? By jockeying. By valuing their position and their timing. This auto-homing-and-tackle button just has to go, the game is genuinely more enjoyable when the use of it is refused.

- Keep the auto-jockey (presently LT+A) and make it the primary tool for defenders.
- Similarly, Secondary Pressure should be a 'close down only' command. The second player should not commit to the tackle, only jockey and block.
- Attempting a succesful standing tackle should require reasonable timing of the Stand Tackle button... exactly the same as how Slide Tackle already operates. Trying to Stand Tackle from a poor angle should often result in a foul, exactly how Slide Tackle already operates.
- In combination with the Composure feature, players will learn that just staying close to and goal-side of the attacker will benefit them by reducing the attacker's effectiveness.
- Could further empower the defender's ability to shot-block and shoulder-jostle when jockeying, and reduce the ability to do these things when sprinting.

Basically, make defending more about being in position and staying goal-side, rather than about trying to snatch the ball back ASAP like it's a schoolyard game of 'tig'.

5. Multiply the rate/effects of Fatigue

...so that it actually matters at all. Would help reduce all the constant sprinting.

This.

100%agreement.

This is exactly what I'm moaning about: No inertia, running-spam-possibility, too much control at high speed, too less control at normal, slow speeds, too easy tacklings on all sides, fatigue playing only a secondary role if at all...

EA should really change these things and do it exactly like you described it to be.

 

[romagnoli]

Nerf, thanks for responding.

Can't really go into it too much as I'm at work and multi-quote on the phone brings me to tears.

Just want to clarify something about the increased touch frequency when moving at slow speeds - how slow is slow? Do you mean jogging, or just L2? Also do you think the problem with jogging is:-

-the frequency of touches?
-the distance that touches travel?
-the rate at which the player gets up to full speed?

 

[mfmaxpower]

With all the recent discussion of FIFA lately I decided to start a new CM yesterday with Las Palmas in Spain's second division, and after a rather long session too long into the morning hours, it's striking how my issues with the game would likely be alleviated if only EA's "to-do" list looked something like what nerf wrote above. (On a side note, I was surprised at how many teams in Spain's lower league has three kits - I'm not afraid to admit that when I'm choosing a random team for a new CM my choice is massively weighted by which clubs have kits that I'll not get tired of over several season! Incidentally, there's a post that Nick and some of us have posted in over at the EA forums discussing how it would go a long way toward the CM experience if we had more kit options/variety to choose from, such as kits from recent seasons and retro kits.)

Anyways, nerf's summary might as well have been written by me after my extended CM session last night, although I would add a greater emphasis on toning down the physical and defensive sides of the game in general, not just for the human-controlled player. Making defending more a challenge is a TOP priority in my eyes, as well as improving a ball handler's ability to more organically protect the ball through shielding, but the defensive AI would still needs some work on top of nerf's suggestions to improve the single player experience. Simply adding in greater effects of momentum and turning down the effectiveness of some tackles and body collisions might be enough.

I like the composure stuff too although I'm not sure a new composure meter is necessary - I think this is just one of those areas that EA hasn't done enough, as Paterson would say. Adding a colored visual cue for composure sounds a bit too noobish for my tastes and could prove distracting, especially if it's not optional. It might be enough just for EA to address nerf's two preceding points - emphasizing the penalties for playing at high speed and the benefits of slowing down. The basic concepts are already built into the game with the supposed differences in how slow dribbling and sprinting influences, say, shooting for exampl; it's just the differences are not pronounced enough. Then again, Paterson doesn't want to make people think so what are the odds for substantial change?

Nerf's "Empower ability at low speed" is a massive one for me too. One of my biggest impressions from last night was how ineffectual close dribble can seem at times, and often I wondered if my controller was broken because it wouldn't seem like I was pressing LT. (I wondered if this had anything to do with playing with a lower rated team but if that's the case then it's poorly implemented - there still should be a major difference between the regular and slow dribble speeds.) I really want to feel the difference when using close dribble - like nerf said, I want to feel "empowered" yet in FIFA 11 you're too much of a sitting duck! Supercharge close dribble!

 

[nerf]

Just want to clarify something about the increased touch frequency when moving at slow speeds - how slow is slow? Do you mean jogging, or just L2? Also do you think the problem with jogging is:-

-the frequency of touches?
-the distance that touches travel?
-the rate at which the player gets up to full speed?

Perhaps all of the above. Anything that makes dribbling at slower speeds, either LT or jogging, an advantage and therefore used more, that was really the gist of it.

Maybe the LT dribble could be more 'silky' too. It has the dragback, which I like, and maybe that same thing could be extended to lateral changes of direction. Right now you still do quite hard cuts, maybe it would benefit from being a smoother transition from which you can accelerate.

a colored visual cue for composure sounds a bit too noobish for my tastes and could prove distracting, especially if it's not optional.

Ideally it would be. I was just trying to come up with a way of communicating it clearly so people don't just wonder why Rooney misses so often when sprinting at goal, label the game rubbish and put the controller down.

 

[glen]

Perhaps all of the above. Anything that makes dribbling at slower speeds, either LT or jogging, an advantage and therefore used more, that was really the gist of it.

Maybe the LT dribble could be more 'silky' too. It has the dragback, which I like, and maybe that same thing could be extended to lateral changes of direction. Right now you still do quite hard cuts, maybe it would benefit from being a smoother transition from which you can accelerate.

Nerf do you get the "skill dribble" player control and animation on normal L2 dribbling sometimes when moving laterally?

I have noticed some of my players will do a skill dribble type control/animation when I get the ball in tight spaces and attempt to walk/dribble out of them?

 

[mfmaxpower]

What. The. F**k.

Tell you what, Gary, why not do away with having to control your player when he has the ball too? How about an auto-dribble button, where you just hold A and it dribbles towards goal for you, automatically avoiding defenders on the way? I mean, if you mix it up and say 'there is no auto-dribble button', how are people going to be able to run with the ball?

And let's have an auto-goal button, where you hold X and your player runs into a good position to automatically release a shot aimed at the top corner of the net? I mean, if you mix it up and say 'there is no auto-goal button', how are people going to be able to score?

So the whole concept of defending is purely just about pressure is it? Well, he is Scottish I guess...

I think what is most dispiriting about that article to me is that GP implies that if the "hardcore" had their (our?) way, FIFA would be LESS fun for everyone.

As long as the devs consider our opinions to run against what is best for everyone, we're obviously fucked. Why the hell must they be so afraid to make a game that is fun and challenging? A game that is difficult to master can still be easy to pick up and play.

And so what if it takes ten hours to become competent at a high level? This isn't your old linear adventure game in which you play for ten hours, maybe beat the game, and never play again - FIFA is intended to last a year or longer, and then you carry over your skills to the next edition you pick up.

I don't know which bothers me more: Paterson's and EA's vision of what football looks like (i.e. some football-hockey hybrid) or their belief that increasing realism and challenge would equal less fun and an inferior product - as if many of the aspects that people love about the real game are incompatible with a video game adaptation.

Really hoping that Paterson's interview represents PR-speak more than his honest appraisal - if the mindset of the dev team is as arrogant as GP's message then there's little reason to hope that the massive potential within the FIFA engine and FIFA franchise as a whole can be realized in the near-future.

 

[Gab_]

The touches should also not always be exactly the same, there should be small difference in length and direction based on the players individual stats. So Messi have much more even and less error in his touches but someone like Walcott is much more prone to bad touches making it harder for him to keep a constant speed with the ball like in real life. To me, this is one of the things that makes the difference between player in real life. This is why fast players don't dominate real life like they do in FIFA.

 

[mfmaxpower]

Nerf do you get the "skill dribble" player control and animation on normal L2 dribbling sometimes when moving laterally?

I have noticed some of my players will do a skill dribble type control/animation when I get the ball in tight spaces and attempt to walk/dribble out of them?

Do you find this with many players? I mostly use lower rated teams in CM - like with my Las Palmas CM right now - and while I'll see dragbacks, I rarely see much else. Sometimes it seems like EA sees lower rated footballers as Sunday-leaguers. Las Palmas may be second division but they still are Spanish for god's sake!

I mentioned this in a previous post but we're basically talking about the same thing: that while defensive, tackling, and collision animations increased dramatically this past year, it is time to add more dribbling animations and these could be paired to the close dribble control.

Simple, subtle dribbling and movement animations, in conjunction with improved shielding and more realistic defensive responses, would help to better empower L2. That and also increasing ball touches vis-a-vis regular dribbling, like nerf said, for increased control and agility.