Fifa 11 Xbox 360/PS3

ibra77 said:
say the ball went out of play and I could
1) press select, activating the manager,
2)and then say hold a shoulder button to indicate I want a substitution
3)then press a button to select a player from the bench
4)then press one more button to indicate a position in my formation.

You'd have to memorize a little but if you had been thinking about the substition as the game went on you could push four buttons in a matter of 2 seconds or so. I think it would be quite different from pausing, loading time, scrolling through menu and players, etc. Even if it took loading time, subs take time in real life but the point is to avoid the artifical pause menu. For formations I could imagine something similiar.

1)pressing select, in or out of play,
2) pressing a shoulder button different then the last one to indicate formation change
3) press pre assigned button to a formation or quickly scroll across a set of written or graphic formations across the buttom of the screen.

like you said it might be risky in play, but if their is no loading time you could manage if you memorized the sequences sort of like a combo move in a fighting game.
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You mean the fucntion that wa in FIFA RTWC 06
 
romagnoli said:
I wonder about whether it should be d-pad centric. It seems like something where you could end up having your thumb off the left stick for a long time, if you want enough detail to move players around or make subs or have FM style touchline instructions. Would it not make sense to have something more right-stick based with a radial menu, perhaps?

It's hard to decide what the most powerful and least intrusive setup is. Not being able to use the shoulder buttons to do something is a bit of a hindrance; if you want a system where you can use the face and shoulder buttons then you aren't keeping control of players. If you want a system you can only use when te ball is out of play then it isn't any different from pausing.
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Whether it's available in or out of play, it would still be preferable to pausing simply because of time and button presses. Right now, if you wanted to swap to the 'High Pressure' preset custom tactic: would you pause, scroll to squad management, select, scroll to custom tactics, select, scroll to High Pressure, select, exit squad management, exit the pause menu... or would you just press DOWN LEFT on your d-pad? That's without mentioning all the 'swoosh' delays in loading the various menus too.

I'm not thinking of things like being able to drag positional dots around (which I dislike to begin with, but that's another story), or tweaking each custom tactics category to an exact notch. Something similar to the shortcut options that you get nowadays on the match screen in Football Manager 2011, like you mentioned. Quick Sub, Change Role, etc. Shouts would be great. With 'Choose Formation' thrown in too.
 
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A miniscule amount. I don't bother creating my own custom tactics any more, I just switch between the Counter Attack, High Pressure and Possession presets on the fly depending on the match context. There's already such little difference between those three that fiddling around in any more detail seems pointless.
 
for me, although subtle, tactics is the difference b/w winning, losing, or drawing. I think a good way to test it is to play a CM game against a particular team over and over again, say 6 times (using a back up file to retract to the fixture you just played), using one type of tactic in three games, and a second tactic in the other three games, alternating between tactics after every game. Pretty sure you'll begin to notice the difference b/w game flow, types of chances created, scenarios, player tendencies between the differet tactics, and the striking similarity b/w the games in which the same tactics were used. My expereince is that it is rewarding to play to your tactical set up, and not making a deliberate effort to play to your tactics hinders overall performance.

You mean the fucntion that wa in FIFA RTWC 06
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was strictly PES at that time so I haven't a clue.
 
I agree that playing to match your Custom Tactics will help, but I don't believe that subtle tweaks here and there make any significant difference.

The way I'm playing at the moment is: if I want to keep the ball and the opponent is not pressuring hard, I'll switch to Possession. If the opposing team is pushing up and applying pressure, I'll switch to Counter Attack (and maybe decrease mentality if I'm protecting a lead). If I need to take the game to them and be more aggressive, I'll switch to High Pressure. Not convinced that anything inbetween these 'poles' is worthwhile fiddling with.
 
Finally got the game and played my first match online since FIFA 09 (I skipped FIFA 10). Looking for manual players to add, and I thought there used to be a thread with that, but I can't seem to find it. But either way, xbox360 gamertag - firestonebeer1

Now that I think about it, there used to be "online" games forum, where did that go?
 
I just popped the FIFA World Cup game back into my console for the first time since about September, I was amazed at how much more fun the game is to play compared to FIFA11. I don't know what went wrong.

For starters, the game may be slightly faster but the AI actually attacks you on a consistent basis. Add to that, the game in comparison gives you more time on the ball. This doesn't really make for an easier game, but I scored a massively more varied number of goals than I have on FIFA11. The World Cup game seems to give you that little bit more scope to try something adventurous, to try a move or a shot you'd never even dream of trying in FIFA11 because the game's so unforgiving.

That's not to mention the presentation being better too. The zoomed in celebrations seem far more dynamic, the crowds more intense, the commentary better, all the real time cut scenes of fans and players when the ball goes out, it's so much better. I was pretty shocked at noticing this, to be honest.

Not sure if anyone else has compared the World Cup game, but I think the team who made this deserve a shot at FIFA12.
 
I agree, I found World Cup 2010 to be a very decent football game and was an improvement on Fifa10 but Fifa11 just felt like an instantly noticeable backwards step. Then again I found the Euro2008 game to be much better than Fifa08 and 09.

The tournament games always feel like a higher quality product to me. Perhaps it's because they are smaller projects and can be given more attention.If it is a completely separate team that works on these games then they should be given a shot at the Fifa titles.
 
Started playing it again this weekend, what with Liverpool looking better, Torres pissing me off and Suarez signing I needed my fix.

Games were ok, changed my tactics to very attacking (it's not like I need more then 3 defenders in this game anyway) and the games had a better flow. CPU attacks were dangerous because I was giving so much space away and attacking was more fun because I usually had a player available to keep possesion instead of just being run over by some clogger from Stoke. Was still tough to win matches, had an epic 3-3 against Arsenal, a 2-2 against someone else and won 3-1 against Villa.

What is annoying is how slooooooooow passing is. I even have ProPassing off to speed it up but still when I do a short pass a CPU player can run from behind, or next to my passer, and win the ball before it even reaches my teammate. It's very poor in that regard and the balance is sh!t because of it. They are actually forcing you to pingpong it as with some composure and the correct players the passing can maintain some speed. Controlling the ball and setting the player up to make a good pass doesn't get rewarded...at all.

I'll probably manage another week and then pack it in again....probably when Torres scores for Chelsea on sunday.
 
FIFA World Cup was a complete arcade game I thought, FIFA 11 is much better but still at heart just a much more difficult arcade game.
 
Jamezinho said:
I agree, I found World Cup 2010 to be a very decent football game and was an improvement on Fifa10 but Fifa11 just felt like an instantly noticeable backwards step. Then again I found the Euro2008 game to be much better than Fifa08 and 09.

The tournament games always feel like a higher quality product to me. Perhaps it's because they are smaller projects and can be given more attention.If it is a completely separate team that works on these games then they should be given a shot at the Fifa titles.
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Couldn't agree more. The tournament games do feel like they devote more time to the gameplay.

One massive thing about gameplay I noticed was the ability to chest the ball in different directions. It allows you to make so much more space, as well as set up some flowing moves. A lot of goals I scored in that game looked really cool because of the way that the player could beat a man by turning with chest control - if the player himself had the relevant stats to do so.

I don't think the WC game was arcade at all. Play on manual, or even slow down the tempo, and it feels far more like an international match because you can actually keep possession in your own half without being rounded on by a pack of crazy midfielders intent on charging through the back of you.

To me, FIFA11 feels more arcade like. My games mainly consist of win the ball with a standing toe poke tackle, keep possession despite getting hounded all over the place, finally pick a forward pass, instantly get someone ploughing though you at full speed, then I get in a toe poke tackle again, win the ball, get toe poked myself, and before you know it there are half a dozen players bunching in the middle of the field like it's a school football match. The constant pressure and back-and-forth nature of the tackling makes it more like a cross between football, rugby and basketball. I can't see anything realistic in this game at all.

Sure, the WC game wasn't overly realistic either, but at least you could have fun and actually score some pretty realistic goals without having to resort to explioting known ways of scoring. Fair enough if people like FIFA11, but now I actually wish they'd have just brought out the WC game complete with all it's presentation, graphics, gameplay, everything, and just added clubs and some tournaments to play. I'd still be playing it now.
 
klashman69 said:
I know you see this is MLO and other modes where you having a tight game or a game against someone and through the match, there will be 3-4 pauses where you and your opponent quickly move players about in order to gain a tactical advantage and make formations on the fly to adapt to your opponent.

it's so easy to just move the full back deeper or the midfield further up the pitch to add more attacking/defensive emphasis. I mean i remember on fifa, you have to save each unique formation you make and it's disabled online!

People really underestimate this especially i've noticed pretty much all FIFA players disregard tatcics totally! Using savvy tactics is a skill! Out thinking your opponent. That's much more of a skill imo compared to doing 3 rainbow flicks or roulette and scoring a finesse shit and it has more to do with football. of course EA need to balance the gameplay right so the game can't be so god dam easily abused!
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thing is that 98% of the time people have no idea what they are doing and using insane formations and using players on wrong positions etc.
so in the end it doesnt change/adds much to the game in pes sadly..

even if konami is adding guides to the game like pes5/6 i doubt many people would use it, and if they use it they wont make smart decisions out of this

edit
fifa 11 pc is like playing handball, box to box powerplay situations the whole game
and if not u just press a bit earlier and get the ball back..
they have no idea bout football
arena mode and shooting is fun, thats it for me :D
 
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ImpossibleYesbutitsTrue said:
thing is that 98% of the time people have no idea what they are doing and using insane formations and using players on wrong positions etc.
so in the end it doesnt change/adds much to the game in pes sadly..
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That is comfortably one of the biggest loads of rubbish I've ever read on these forums. So much is added to PES by the tactical side. I'm honestly astounded by how much they've managed to make tactics a central part of the game - I dont expect FIFA to become deep enough to match PES tactically but if FIFA can at least get that side of the game accessible and make sure that it matters who plays where, then I'd be happier.

As for the tutorials - if either game added playable tutorials then they'd add incentives to play them beyond just learning. Trophies/Achievements, unlocks, whatever - they would be there though.
 
You're sayin that most people who play PES don't understand tactics and are unable to get anything much out of them, except abusive setups in some cases. But you also said it doesn't add much to the game.

The former is true to an extent(and only an extent; more than 2% of people bother with tactics, whether they get the most of it or not). There aren't any abusive formations that I have faced and felt I could never outsmart though - whether someone who doesn't know what they're doing could outdo it is another matter but it's also the sort of thing people pick up as tactics and formations evolve online.

But you said the tactical stuff doesn't add much to the game. Even for people who barely use tactics themselves, YES THEY DO!! The difference between PES and FIFA offline for personality and playing styles is huge even though PES's default tactics are pretty vanilla compared to what Klash and BluChamp are up to. The AI itself changes tactics and formations as it goes too, making matches much more dynamic and adaptive.
 
it doesnt add much to the game coz of the players dont know how to use it or dont use it at all :)

off course its a big main part of the game(on paper) and for both of us
but its only a big part in practice with people using it(well)

also its maybe even less than 2 % on pc platform
and abusive is the wrong sentence, what tried to say is that they cant challenge me with their tactics and decisions and formations, and they are also unrealistic in most cases

off course offline with edited stats and team tatics its a big part of the game, but tbh not online most of the time :)

edit
2 examples:

1)barca stock formation guy = doesnt use anything
2) some other big team guy or ML team with a usual 4 defence line, then a DM and in front of him all players on offence
big pressing and also slider set up to play on the wings = score like 4:0 for me at half time :D
it doesnt add much to the game rly, people just have no idea
 
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Alright, let's humour this for the sake of discussion (as FIFA will have far less than this made up 2% bothering at the moment).

So a lot of people don't think to change their tactics online. How do you get them to discover this untapped world? You don't need to get 100% or even 70% of people doing so, but surely you can get a good number of people giving it a go via an interactive tutorial that gives you rewards for completing? FIFA could even combine it with the WC2010 Scenario setup to explain why 3 centre backs will struggle against 3 centre backs, or why you need a midfield (assume that the gameplay can prove this)? What about little hints/tips scrolling in the EA ticker? The main reason why people don't experiment is because they don't know what to do. Give them a genuinely enjoyable and interactive way to try stuff out, give them helpful advice and basic ideas.

If people still don't want to mess about with formations, give them what PES has - an assistant manager that makes changes for you.
 
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if u give them tutorials some of them will try
but u forget that they can also try w/o any help at all, and they dont do it now :)
its false hope mate :)

maybe 2/15 wud try that, lets say one of them will get a proper understanding out of this, wow :CRY:


and thats just a tutorial maybe how to use controls and the tactics menu, and some simple rules about tactic, some round up

thats not a guarantee that they can use this new wisdom to create new tactics alone and make their own stuff

remember pes5/6? all this ugly looking unrealitic formations?
both games had tutorials..
 
:|

Never mind. You dont know what you're talking about.

For the record, PES 5 and 6 did not have tactical tutorials at all. They had interactive gameplay tutorials telling you how to shoot, dribble etc. Not teaching you the basics of how different formations work against each other.
 
ok my fail, its too long ago to remember correctly lol
but that doesnt change anything, thats just a wrong detail
u basically agreed with me on your previous posting and wrote this:
romagnoli said:
How do you get them to discover this untapped world?
The main reason why people don't experiment is because they don't know what to do. Give them a genuinely enjoyable and interactive way to try stuff out, give them helpful advice and basic ideas.
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and this is the final point which i wrote on my very first posting bout this:

ImpossibleYesbutitsTrue said:
i doubt many people would use it, and if they use it they wont make smart decisions out of this
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there is no interest to do it, doesnt matter if there are tutorials or not
they still need to understand and to create, its not about giving them a frame and definitions/rules
u need a certain background for this
no gaming but football background
 
romagnoli said:
You're sayin that most people who play PES don't understand tactics and are unable to get anything much out of them, except abusive setups in some cases. But you also said it doesn't add much to the game.

The former is true to an extent(and only an extent; more than 2% of people bother with tactics, whether they get the most of it or not). There aren't any abusive formations that I have faced and felt I could never outsmart though - whether someone who doesn't know what they're doing could outdo it is another matter but it's also the sort of thing people pick up as tactics and formations evolve online.

But you said the tactical stuff doesn't add much to the game. Even for people who barely use tactics themselves, YES THEY DO!! The difference between PES and FIFA offline for personality and playing styles is huge even though PES's default tactics are pretty vanilla compared to what Klash and BluChamp are up to. The AI itself changes tactics and formations as it goes too, making matches much more dynamic and adaptive.
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I'd agree with the comments about FIFA/PES tactics. The tactics in PES make a very visible difference to the way your team play and interact with eachother on the pitch. Conversely, I've even tried making custom formations in FIFA that are set to zero or 100, just to see if they actually did anything, and barring the general attack/defence levels of your team, they basically don't do much at all. I've noticed that playing PES, I take a lot more deliberation over my team set up than in FIFA without even realizing that I'm doing it, which must say something for the depth of the two games?
 
can i again big up the world cup 2010 game, i did find even though it was highly arcadey but it was VERY playable and since matches were goals crazy, hey, it was fun :)

I didn't win the online world cup (always used rubbish sides) but every match it seemed was goal crazy! and unlike the dreadful FIFA 11. Playable! It wasn't bug ridden, horribly unbalanced with elements which don't fit together. It played too smoothly but it played well.

Manual was a mess on that game though. the manual matches i had online felt like some sort of super powered park kick about! Highly unrealistic and strange really! Better than Assisted etc.. matches though :)
 
ImpossibleYesbutitsTrue said:
ok my fail, its too long ago to remember correctly lol
but that doesnt change anything, thats just a wrong detail
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On the contrary. It's the basis of your argument that nothing CAN be done to encourage people to try. It has not been tried yet, and there are plenty of other genres of game that show that people are more than capable of picking up very basic ideas and either building on it or sticking with what they have. Even if only a fraction of users bother to experiment from there, the numbers you would get using formations from then on would be far, far bigger than you have now (which is still way more than 2%!!).

u basically agreed with me on your previous posting and wrote this:
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I was discussing why people don't experiment at the moment. I'm discussing how to reduce that number (which you definitely can). You are saying that they never will. That's bollocks. Even people from gamer backgrounds who don't think about things in footballing terms, will want to learn how to be better at the game. These are the people who try exploit formations. The way you move those people from exploit formations to proper football formations is to make football formations more effective. The gamers will make more football-centric decisions without even realising it.



there is no interest to do it, doesnt matter if there are tutorials or not
they still need to understand and to create, its not about giving them a frame and definitions/rules
u need a certain background for this
no gaming but football background
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There is interest in such things as I said above about the exploitative formations. At the same time, if they don't then that is where an assistant manager comes in - if you develop that idea then you can make it easier for a casual gamer who likes football as an armchair fan to say, in very simple terms, something like 'I want to play an attacking formation where I cross it in to the striker lots', or 'I want to pass the ball around lots and walk the ball into the goal' etc. Then you can let the assistant set you up from the start and make changes during the match.

It's short sighted though to think that you cannot get people to pick simple things like basic tactics up. It's just about making that user friendly. At the moment tactics are user friendly to us because we know what certain things mean and how to manipulate them; now more stuff has to be done to make that more inclusive for the people who watch football but don't really pick much up about tactics.

Getting people to play the game, and then start to think about real football more tactically, is completely doable and should be the goal of both developers. It's not about getting everyone to use the options that are there, but if they ARE there then it adds a lot more depth to the whole game in the long run. The benefits of 2011's tactical engine will be seen in 2012, 13, 14 etc as more and more people realise that they make a difference and Konami do more and more to encourage them to do so.
 
your hope and vision is touching me, srsly :P

looking at the pc comm. now its almost impossible to achieve that

now to your arguments:
u wrote that:
"At the moment tactics are user friendly to us because we know what certain things mean and how to manipulate them"

push select and u have descriptions for almost everything, there are even animations on the small pitch showin what will happen
and how to manipulate?
well just change it and see lol

also there are assistants already in the game like player subs and more(to set up your tactics)


also i dont notice any benefits from 010 in 011 at all
so this thinking is wrong
u just "catch" the people who already try something and help them to get better tactics
thats it in my opinion

anyways i doubt konami will do anything in this direction, they have enough other important things to do
and fifa well..thats not their user market?, they wont do i think, they dont even think about it
 
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There will always be people who have no interest in the tactical side of football to start with, and you will always have people who just want to get onto the pitch via the smallest number of button presses, but there's also an opportunity to expose the strategic side of the game by bringing it to the surface with better interface.

If it was visualised better, was more instantly intuitive, and involved fewer button presses to at least make broad-stroke changes, I believe more people would embrace it.

At the moment both titles present it in basically the exact same way, and both have it wrong.
 
Looks like Im the only one here still enjoying FIFA 11 single player?

I found the secret is longer but fewer games. Im playing on full manual, world class level. I finished 5th with Liverpool in my first season and had some great games.

I own both PES and FIFA the first time ever I have bought both. PES is just still way to clunky for me and the lack of manual controls (unless you hold another button) is a gamebreaker. FIFA maybe a bit more arcadey but scoring in FIFA is a far better experience than scoring in PES. I dont know how to explain it other than saying PES is just feels dull for me.
 
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nerf said:
At the moment both titles present it in basically the exact same way, and both have it wrong.
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Nope. PES system is very easy to modify the formation to how you want. Easier than in manager games even! Just takes a while to get used to.

Needs a very basic guide, that's it!

No matter how much you get used to fifa's it's interface and yhe amount of buttons and processes you go through isn't very good at all! and this saving every custom formation business needs to go!
 
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I don't know if Impossible is just being obtuse for the sake of it or if it's a language thing. I'll come back to it when I'm not posting from my phone.

Basically the movement of players around the formation screen has had a usability upgrade in PES that is equivalent in user friendliness to moving from normal pad to Wiimote, actually adding (or revealing) rather than removing depth. The next step is making the slider system and the impact of combining setting A and setting B in particular ways, more understandable for newcomers. That and explaining not just what settings do but when you'd use them (which is where Impossible is missing the point, by accident or by design).
 
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