Fifa 11 Xbox 360/PS3

romagnoli said:
It's obligatory "we're awesome but working to be awesomer" PR fluff. I don't think you can read too much into it.

It is depressing though. The forums are a complete waste of time; the feedback forum doesn't seem like it is coming back as things stand, and the GC's are getting next to no input from EA besides one or two questions a few weeks ago about audio or whether one or two VP accomplishments were too hard/too easy.

I knew the most depressing day of the year was this month, but I thought it had been and gone.
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Yeah I'm a tad gutted, we seem to be getting little true input or feedback, I was hoping we could really help on 12 but by the time we will get a look the whole thing is going to be almost complete in direction and form... :ROLL:
 
Nick Cave said:
Yeah I'm a tad gutted, we seem to be getting little true input or feedback, I was hoping we could really help on 12 but by the time we will get a look the whole thing is going to be almost complete in direction and form... :ROLL:
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It's very disappointing to hear that :( - have they been communicating with you at all?

The lack of an official feedback forum is bad enough, but I personally was labouring under the impression that they were communicating with you guys and that the possibility that any decent feedback we left may have got picked up and passed through via the GC forum. This leaves me asking the question "what is the point??" I can only assume that nobody is listening or interested in feedback.

I'm still struggling to understand the reasons why the Official Forum doesn't have an area for feedback. Why do posts which contain genuinely good ideas or suggestions have to fight among the utter crap (UDLawman Trolling posts etc) posted in the general NG Forum for air? If there is a logical reason for that decision I'd love to hear it. I did ask PWride why and he didn't really have a good reason for it, implying that it may just make give the impression they would look to fix issues with the game! Astounding stuff.

My general impression is that EA doesn't care what users have to say anymore, ignoring what had helped move the series onwards in the first place. Konami seem to have become more receptive to their community and the overall impression I get is that PES is definitely moving in the right direction and is the most likely title to provide a realistic simulation somewhere in the future, whereas FIFA is merely a vehicle for Ultimate Team - their latest cash cow which is being milked to oblivion.

Even if there is no provision for a forum, why not stickie a 'suggestions/improvements' thread?

In my view if they aren't looking to come up with a new system for defending/applying pressure/secondary tackling as a priority for FIFA 12 I'm not sure what chance there is for FIFA going forward. It has to be the issue brought up by the majority of users who do post constructive feedback. Ignoring that would demonstrate their lack of interest in addressing the issues which their core community have identified through uncountable hours of combined gameplay.

Secondary to that teammate AI needs some serious adjustment. Players you don't control really should be reacting to space better than they do, exploiting opportunities to attack or covering spaces in defence.

Admittedly I like the idea of no cutscenes, revamped set pieces and we were only recently talking about improvements to the atmosphere in the matches themselves but if it was at the expense of improved gameplay I'd feel hugely disappointed.

Also, I realise this is very early on to be hearing FIFA news, but I guess the fact he is talking FIFA 12 rather than possible FIFA 11 fixes gives us an insight into the chances of a patch or update to fix the glaring problems with the current release.

The only mode I play now is online unranked vs friends, the least likely game mode to cause massive frustration or reveal a new glitch/bug/exploit.

Riche
 
The only thing EA cares about is money. I've seen nothing from the company over the past few months/years that does anything to disprove this widely held belief. So the only way you can voice your dissatisfaction with the FIFA series is to not buy the game.

I remember a few years back when Chris Davies was on these forums quite vocally advocating a boycott of PES6 (on the 360) and PES2008 as he believed that the series was taking a turn for the worse and Konami didn't deserve our hard-earned cash. He was quite right (however I'd like to know if he feels the same kind of boycott should be applied to Fifa this year) and many of us, myself included, stopped buying PES. It gave Konami a sharp wake-up call. EA need the same.

If you truly care about Fifa (and personally I couldn't care less now PES is on the rise) then think long and hard about whether EA deserve another wedge of your cash.
 
I totally agree with you, and I'll not be buying the game. It's a shame that it won't make much difference though, there are an awful lot of people out there who just want an arcade football game and can deal with the game modes' problems. Kids will also buy this game in their millions because it has the proper teams/licences etc. I really think EA are marketing this at the huge crowd of people who want to spend money on a game, pick up and play for a few months, and move on.

What I don't understand are the reviews. Many review websites and magazines slate other EA games, but FIFA? Every year they award it the 'most realistic football simulation ever created', which is total garbage. Even Edge awarded this 9/10 and PES 6/10 I think, which is bizarre.

I really wish the makers of NBA2K could make a great football game. One with decent gameplay, licences, the amazing presentation and graphics, everything from their basketball game translated into a football sim. Ain't gonna happen though. Let's just hope that PES can make another stride forward next year.
 
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groovemaster said:
It's very disappointing to hear that :( - have they been communicating with you at all?
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We get the odd post by Dev's and the odd request for info, which we supply in droves, but it's not what any of us were hoping for..

groovemaster said:
The lack of an official feedback forum is bad enough, but I personally was labouring under the impression that they were communicating with you guys and that the possibility that any decent feedback we left may have got picked up and passed through via the GC forum. This leaves me asking the question "what is the point??" I can only assume that nobody is listening or interested in feedback.
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I think the current team are wary of how this would be interpreted by the on-line fraternity as they were burned badly before for any kind of interaction directly on site. This is why (I assumed) the GC's were there, to pass on and interact between the user and the development team. So we could be a more coherent voice. We have given a lot of info directly to the guys in Canada, and we do get the odd email asking for clarification on certain areas and points but it's far from the fluid and in-depth discussions I would have liked..


groovemaster said:
Also, I realise this is very early on to be hearing FIFA news, but I guess the fact he is talking FIFA 12 rather than possible FIFA 11 fixes gives us an insight into the chances of a patch or update to fix the glaring problems with the current release.
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I'd assume there will be a squad update some time after the window closes, if there is no patch then (my money is on there not being), there will be no patch before 12...
 
I don't believe for a moment that a boycott would have any impact on either title. It wouldn't even be a drop in the ocean.

I'm not loyal to either title; I simply enjoy playing football video games more than other genres, and will try both demos to see which I prefer. For the last three years it has not been a difficult decision, and in my eyes PES would have to make yet more big strides next year to successfully tempt me back. Control scheme remains a giant obstacle, for starters.

It's depressing that EA seem to have burrowed their heads deeper in the sand this year, because it means that we're stuck with whatever Rutter fancies. I fear that could be an arrogant mistake on their part, especially if it leads to beliefs that things like P+ are 'great', when it's pretty clear to everyone else that they are not.
 
I think something will bite EA if they continue like this - but the honest truth is that the only thing which will really matter is PES. We can tell EA what to do to prevent it from happening but if they won't listen it's inevitable that PES will overtake it pretty quickly. Then the reviews will follow a year late, and then, maybe EA will feel the pain.

At the moment though we're a drop in the ocean. We're the only part of the community which really cares about the game. We're the 'tough love' sector of the community. Between the sycophantic reviewers and the stupidity of the fanbase who simply can't look further than their own success on a video game to see anything wrong with FIFA, we are pretty insignificant.


What can we do? Perhaps nothing. Just put our hands together and hope EA see sense or Konami really gets their act together.
 
As long as I can find manual passing games more easily by EA adding a proper dedicated sub section then I'll be happy.

I only play online though so all the AI stuff doesn't really affect me. If my player is a little bit out of position in an online 1v1 game I don't let it bother me so much as you know what, players lose the perfect position irl too.

I can't be arsed managing a squad and farting about with tactics as I just want to get on the pitch and play. I enjoy FIFA way over PES on the field so even though I still want improvements in certain areas, I don't let certain things get to me. It isn't perfect but what is?

As long as things don't get worse I'll take whatever improvements I get. If PES becomes better on the pitch (for me), I'll go back to that. Not loyal to any of them.

I appreciate all what you guys say though and hope you get what you are after with the game.
 
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nerf said:
I don't believe for a moment that a boycott would have any impact on either title. It wouldn't even be a drop in the ocean.
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You're most likely right. FIFA has garnered such a following - particularly among the causal crowd that it has always been so desperate to attract - that any boycott would only involve the real hardcore, many of which will give FIFA12 a wide berth, but in the grand scheme of things it won't make a huge difference. The casual crowd and reviewers are more than happy with what has been served up the last couple of years. As long as it looks a bit like football and they can play online that's all that matters.

It comes down to a personal decision at the end of the day. Are you happy to continue supporting a product that is broken in so many ways and that fails to offer the kind of simulation you want despite all the promises? I decided not to buy FIFA11 and in hindsight I'm glad I didn't.
 
If said product, despite being broken and insufficient, still offers me more football-related entertainment than a) the competing product or b) no product at all, then yeah, I suppose I have to be.

I'm less happy about not being able to offer feedback on how the product might become less broken and become more like the kind of simulation I'd prefer.
 
@ Nick,

Seeing as COD BO has been put before the gaming/product standards board my idea for doing the same to FIFA isn't a bad one ;)

Maybe that will get their act together, otherwise I fear I might not be buying a footie game next year as neither did it for me this year. FIFA continues to slide, and it's a question of whether PES can continue to develop as fast as it did otherwise it will still be to little for me. :(
 
I don't think it matters how good PES actually is. It's about FIFA simply getting it's act together. Remember back in 2000-2006 when PES was laughing at pretty much all the competition and was destroying FIFA in all aspects terms of gameplay, i mean PES was not only a better simulation back then, it was even a better pick up and play game, but STILL it was being beaten comfortably with the sales!
 
Didn't PES 6 outsell FIFA in the UK? I know it was the market leader in the countries where it had full licenses.

I guess that is an important point we will have to try and gauge from news of the next titles though; will FIFA try and better cater for us, the hardcore, or will it quash our Boothian dreams and merely progress as a more playable version of what it was 5 years ago? Will PES look to build on what it has by becoming more immediately playable or by focussing on the hardcore fans it sought to win back?
 
romagnoli said:
Didn't PES 6 outsell FIFA in the UK? I know it was the market leader in the countries where it had full licenses.
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Wasn't that PES 2008?

I hear it does sell more in certain countries but in total sales it usual gets beaten comfortably

I guess that is an important point we will have to try and gauge from news of the next titles though; will FIFA try and better cater for us, the hardcore, or will it quash our Boothian dreams and merely progress as a more playable version of what it was 5 years ago?
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Well that brings another question, should we keept he faith and continute to tell EA whats wrong and what needs to be changed or since EA clearly have no time for simulation. Should we simply stop caring and turn a blind eye?

Will PES look to build on what it has by becoming more immediately playable or by focussing on the hardcore fans it sought to win back?
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PES really doesn't actually need a huge amount of work, or needs to even make a huge jump in anything apart from animation transition. Then again, the base it there fro Konami, the tech is good enough now they just need to add to the animations they have (which isn't really enough) and make animations more dynamic in their responsiveness (stumbling etc..)

No doubt they will add to the animations they already have and they should have enough time to sort out the transitions since they don't need to totally rebuild the whole game like they been doing for the last year/two years. It also needs more fancy stuff (rabonas etc..), just as long as the gameplay is pretty much the same but with those annoying niggles and bugs fixed.

The MAIN this as well it badly needs is a GUIDE!!!!! a DUMMIES GUIDE to the game! Videos explaining how the game works now, tactically, in terms of gameplay, everything! Casuals can play PES 2011 just they need a guide to ease them in so they aren't totally perplexed by all the changes!
 
It's surprising that neither side has bothered with a tutorial to show people how to do play the game. EA have those videos but the best way to learn is by doing.

In FIFAs case it would be so much easier for them to build a more sophisticated football experience if they made playing 'properly' easier and more intuitive. Things like having to press L2+R2+X to jockey press when R2+X just clatters in, or pressing L2+RS to one side and waiting that small but agonising fraction of a second for the player to actually carry it out just to drop a shoulder when with a bit more stick movement you could do an elastico... How much can you really encourage football from the masses or build towards that direction when the control sheme doesn't lend itself to it?
 
romagnoli said:
It's surprising that neither side has bothered with a tutorial to show people how to do play the game. EA have those videos but the best way to learn is by doing.

In FIFAs case it would be so much easier for them to build a more sophisticated football experience if they made playing 'properly' easier and more intuitive. Things like having to press L2+R2+X to jockey press when R2+X just clatters in, or pressing L2+RS to one side and waiting that small but agonising fraction of a second for the player to actually carry it out just to drop a shoulder when with a bit more stick movement you could do an elastico... How much can you really encourage football from the masses or build towards that direction when the control sheme doesn't lend itself to it?
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Also tactically i have to say FIFA needs to really re evaluate it's interface from scratch.

PES's system really illustrates it's a HIGHLY tactical game where as FIFA, tactics are an afterthought.

I know you see this is MLO and other modes where you having a tight game or a game against someone and through the match, there will be 3-4 pauses where you and your opponent quickly move players about in order to gain a tactical advantage and make formations on the fly to adapt to your opponent.

it's so easy to just move the full back deeper or the midfield further up the pitch to add more attacking/defensive emphasis. I mean i remember on fifa, you have to save each unique formation you make and it's disabled online!

People really underestimate this especially i've noticed pretty much all FIFA players disregard tatcics totally! Using savvy tactics is a skill! Out thinking your opponent. That's much more of a skill imo compared to doing 3 rainbow flicks or roulette and scoring a finesse shit and it has more to do with football. of course EA need to balance the gameplay right so the game can't be so god dam easily abused!
 
Which is why it's so frustrating not having a feedback area where we can talk about such changes and what we'd want to see done to facilitate these changes. Without it, it becomes impossible for people of like minds to come together and develop some sort of momentum towards such a change. Rod's been great at getting the numbers up with his threads but it's amazing how much effort he put into his thread without there being the feeling that an uprising was beginningto happen, or that the hardcore were keen to stand up and be counted. I couldn't see so many people sticking LSHA in their sigs now.
 
romagnoli said:
Which is why it's so frustrating not having a feedback area where we can talk about such changes and what we'd want to see done to facilitate these changes. Without it, it becomes impossible for people of like minds to come together and develop some sort of momentum towards such a change. Rod's been great at getting the numbers up with his threads but it's amazing how much effort he put into his thread without there being the feeling that an uprising was beginningto happen, or that the hardcore were keen to stand up and be counted. I couldn't see so many people sticking LSHA in their sigs now.
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Well FIFA 12 is the last chance really for us 'hardcore' and the LSHA crowd! If it dosen't measure up i truly believe silence in ignoring FIFA until we see changes is the way since if instead of complaining and EA ignoring us, they will eventually come to us when they need fresh ideas!
 
Re the guides suggestion,

They should just make a challenge training mode like the old PES had. That was the first thing I did was try and get the 5 stars for everything, partly because that meant more shopperks (usually the 6* mode for ML), but mostly because it would get you into the game without frustrating you in a match. What would happen everytime with the adjustments to the new game.

A simple mode, that can have achievements/points and stuff, and that teaches you the game.

The tactics in PES are great imo, loved the flow the matches had and the AI adjustments.
 
re: Tactics - I would absolutely love some form of Quick Tactics system, one that is slick enough to enable you to make changes without pausing the game. A well-designed pop-up interface that overlays the on-pitch camera, with every possible tactical alteration at your fingertips within about three button presses, would be more than feasible I'm sure.

Such a thing would not only avoid several pauses during multiplayer games (which can be frustrating for the opponent), but also - if it is easy to understand and quick to use - would encourage more people to use the tactical side of the game rather than being put off by wading through weighty pause menus.

So I might think in the 33rd minute: "my right back looks like he has space to move into on that flank, I want him to push forward more", and in the 35th minute I win a throw-in, hit the Quick Tactics button, select my RB, give him an instruction like a forward arrow (or whatever), and then take the throw... all in about ten seconds without leaving the pitch.

Facilitating the easy involvement of tactics would be a bonus for every type of gamer, surely. And I know in FIFA's case the game would have to be balanced to make it mean more, but I also think a strong percentage of the issue is - as so often - UI related. Like klashman mentioned, having to save out any minor tactical alteration to a slot is an unnecessary ball-ache, one of many that the majority will prefer to avoid.

romagnoli said:
In FIFAs case it would be so much easier for them to build a more sophisticated football experience if they made playing 'properly' easier and more intuitive. Things like having to press L2+R2+X to jockey press when R2+X just clatters in, or pressing L2+RS to one side and waiting that small but agonising fraction of a second for the player to actually carry it out just to drop a shoulder when with a bit more stick movement you could do an elastico... How much can you really encourage football from the masses or build towards that direction when the control sheme doesn't lend itself to it?
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Yes! Spot on.

But of course they're not interested in such valuable feedback...
 
Sounds good Nerf,

However since the introduction of d-pad control in 09 (meaning tactics have moved to the stick) it hasn't worked. So that's only FIFA09, FIFA10, FIFA:WC and FIFA11. A single test of the control scheme would have shown it. Getting the game to recognise up or down or right or left has been too advanced for these imbeciles so your proposal sounds like fantasy, sadly. :(

So many of these things, really makes me hate them.
 
yea I could imagine, especially for minor tactical changes like wanting a full back to attack more. press select, press a button to select a pre-assigned instruction, press a button to a pre-assigned player. if you memorize your players and your instructions well, that would take less than 3 seconds. not likely to happen of course.
 
I wonder about whether it should be d-pad centric. It seems like something where you could end up having your thumb off the left stick for a long time, if you want enough detail to move players around or make subs or have FM style touchline instructions. Would it not make sense to have something more right-stick based with a radial menu, perhaps?

It's hard to decide what the most powerful and least intrusive setup is. Not being able to use the shoulder buttons to do something is a bit of a hindrance; if you want a system where you can use the face and shoulder buttons then you aren't keeping control of players. If you want a system you can only use when te ball is out of play then it isn't any different from pausing.
 
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say the ball went out of play and I could
1) press select, activating the manager,
2)and then say hold a shoulder button to indicate I want a substitution
3)then press a button to select a player from the bench
4)then press one more button to indicate a position in my formation.

You'd have to memorize a little but if you had been thinking about the substition as the game went on you could push four buttons in a matter of 2 seconds or so. I think it would be quite different from pausing, loading time, scrolling through menu and players, etc. Even if it took loading time, subs take time in real life but the point is to avoid the artifical pause menu. For formations I could imagine something similiar.

1)pressing select, in or out of play,
2) pressing a shoulder button different then the last one to indicate formation change
3) press pre assigned button to a formation or quickly scroll across a set of written or graphic formations across the buttom of the screen.

like you said it might be risky in play, but if their is no loading time you could manage if you memorized the sequences sort of like a combo move in a fighting game.
 
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