Fifa 11 Xbox 360/PS3

[Gab_]

Re: Fifa 11

I cheat and use semi-assisted passing, and manual everything else. I don't wanna over-think the simple stuff, but if I'm looking for the killer ball, a speculative shot, then it's nice to have the freedom to do what I want.

That being said, I think I'd use manual passing if playing against a human opponent also using it (I don't play online though) and I agree, that manual passing is aiming where you want and then attributes effecting whether the player is accurate enough to find it.

I have normal passes to Semi too and then rest on manual. The reason is that it is the only way to be able to play a longer pass quickly without the need to power it up for seconds. So I use through balls for all my normal passing and then if I'm ever in a situation where I have to play a longer ball quickly I use the normal pass button.

 

[Lami]

Re: Fifa 11

No problem, it seems like a lot of people think of it that way. It's frustrating to me because I don't know any manual players that would ever want something like that.

I'm pretty sure that the only reason it actually is pretty much "fully" manual in FIFA 10 and earlier is because they don't have an error system in the game for passing. That's what they have implemented now in FIFA 11, so now it will hopefully be clear that manual controls actually means manual aim and nothing else.

That's what I meant. I know fully manual means that and only that. Error should mean stats making a difference. If that is how it will work for Fifa 11 then thats good. But we'll have to play and see it really works.

 

[romagnoli]

Re: Fifa 11

That's a cracking video and the reason why manual should be taken out of Fifa and just let the player attributes make the difference

let a top notch player make a good pass/shot 7 times out of 10 and the shitter players obviously less so the game is random and not so easy

What's that got to do with manual though? You're talking about more angles/directions. I think we should have as much directions as possible, put the ball where we want but then the player's accuracy stat being the precision factor.

Manual should be scrapped because the attributes dont matter at all

Assisted with plenty of errors is the way forward

Try playing a game with really shit teams on Assisted on Fifa 10 and you can have brilliant games due to how hit and miss the passing and shooting is

The World Class teams spoil it all because they are too good and all the passes are bang on and shots go in practically all the time, that's what they need to change

I have to agree. Semi-assisted is the way forward - best of both worlds - even PES seems to have adopted a similar system this year. I like their idea of having a manual modifier button so a manual pass can be made as and when needed.

Two things.

Firstly: I have said now, several times including in my post at half 4 in the middle of all that lot, that semi and manual passing both have attribute-based error. I think i've said so in the PES thread as well, when disproving the exact same fallacy over there.

Secondly:

What is your idea that manual passing doesn't have attribute error based on? FIFA 10? The game that had no attribute error for passing at all?

So does that mean, then, that assisted passing, the system that has been used in PES up till now should be scrapped because it doesn't have any attribute error?

Does it mean that semi passing, which doesn't have attribute error, should be scrapped?

There's a HUGE difference between manual passing and attributeless passing. This conversation has cropped up a dozen times now, on both sides of the fence, but still the idea doesn't seem to be sticking.

 

[Gab_]

Re: Fifa 11

That's what I meant. I know fully manual means that and only that. Error should mean stats making a difference. If that is how it will work for Fifa 11 then thats good. But we'll have to play and see it really works.

Then we seem to agree with how it should work. The only problem I see is that it might not be enough possible error in the game. Because as Gary said in an interview, they don't have such error than you can almost miss the ball, or send it completely off target. A balance between reality and playability or whatever you want to call it. However, PES never had huge errors anyway and no one ever complained about it so it should be fine I think.

 

[TikTikTikTikTik]

Re: Fifa 11

Well I'm glad that after a page of comments everybody has finally realised what the difference is.........

 

[romagnoli]

Re: Fifa 11

I think the error in FIFA is less than in the more hardcore PES's (can't speak for 2008 or 2009 as I chose to cast those from my mind) but more of the FIFA error is in bobble, which makes shots (among other things) harder to control. The first touch control error wasn't in yet but should make a difference as well.

I think FIFA 11 is a massive step forward, just for introducing something so crucial to a football sim even though most people didn't think they would. It's a real positive for our demographic as the purists, and even if the passing error isn't enough and we ask for more in the run-up to FIFA 12 (which we will get, apparently), then at least over the course of the next year we know we will all be listened to.

 

[winston]

Re: Fifa 11

I disagree that Man Utd in particular over the past 15 or so years gets so many last minute goals by staying the same in terms of clinicism or decision making in general. Yes they lump people forwards but there is a significant amount of increased urgency in their play and you can see that the decision making, while very much on the offensive, is typically about taking fewer risks - it's about passing the ball around trying to find the gap to exploit, or the person in th best position to put the cross in. The players are typically more accurate because they need to make every pass, shot, header etc count.

This is something that in real life is tied to composure and determination of players, rather than just a blanket rule for everyone. In that sense it is wrong for the AI to try and simulate the behaviour of a human player rather than going on a footballer-by-footballer basis (something that has dogged the series of late). It is also poorly implemented so the AI doesn't feel human anyway. But I know for a fact that my decision making ramps up under the increased pressure of being behind or needing a result in the dying minutes of a match, and the same is true of any decent player of any sports game.

The vast majority of teams are not of the quality of Man Utd. Many teams resort to long ball (even Jose Mourinho teams) and more often than not, it is completely fruitless.

 

[Placebo]

Re: Fifa 11

For me the whole manual/semi/assisted debate comes down to only one thing, keeping the AI competitive without them resorting to cheating (ie super statting), with Fifa08 I had to play on all manual so that Professional was competitive because World Class/Legendary was too super statted, I also had to set myself certain rules such as only 2 players can be bought per season and other than that only free transfers and loans etc. etc. 09 and 10 were a bit better so I ended up on a semi/world class combo (shooting/crossing/short passing semi with through balls/long passing manual) which worked fairly well, still had to restrict how much I improved my own team else it became too easy but the game was enjoyable, hopefully with the work they're doing on personality+™ (*vomit*) and the AI improvements it will mean that the AI is really well balanced and the game is challenging enough to make it enjoyable without resorting to super statting.

 

[Lami]

Re: Fifa 11

So does that mean, then, that assisted passing, the system that has been used in PES up till now should be scrapped because it doesn't have any attribute error?

PES passing up till now doesn't have any attribute error? Are you joking? If that's true then why have we been playing PES all this time?

For me the whole manual/semi/assisted debate comes down to only one thing, keeping the AI competitive without them resorting to cheating (ie super statting)

That is a must.

 

[Jumbo_]

Re: Fifa 11

Anyone notice the nets in that video?

 

[liger05]

Re: Fifa 11

That vid is dope. I like the ball control element.

 

[winston]

Re: Fifa 11

What you seem to want is for the only difference between Amateur and Legendary to be in how intelligently they play - but from a technical perspective this is impossible. Part of the way that they are going to get better is going to be because they get faster at reacting, or they play a more effective set of tactics, or they can pass better or shoot better.

It's always going to feel like their stats are better - there is nothing 'realistic' about difficulty levels in the first place. Fatigue feels like it makes no difference primarily because it pretty much doesn't.

No. My mentioning of Amateur to Legendary was because, if the game doesn't use stats boosts, what makes a team on Amateur play so much worse than the same team on Legendary?

I'm not expecting them to come up with unbelievably realistic AI model, but I think the thing that bugs me most is the way that every team, when they go into GOD mode, become the same. No matter if it's Brazil or Man U, who could conceivably play near god like football, or if it's San Marino or Accrington, who also become near perfect and god like. You start a match against Accrington, but by the end, they've become Man U. This has improved to some degree in WC.

The other thing in WC is that if you play against say Slovenia in a qualifier, they're just Slovenia. Play against them in the Finals, they've beomce Slovenia +1, in the last 16, Slovenia +2, in the QFs, Sloevnia +3. I get a real sense that I'm just playing against a generic QF team. If San Marino got to the SFs, they'd probably be just the same as Brazil in the SFs. I remember playing one WC Final against something like Russia, and they were ridiculously good. Out of curiosity, I kept quitting and restarting the match at lower levels, and even on Amateur, they were still tough. Some serious boosting going on there.

 

[Gab_]

Re: Fifa 11

PES passing up till now doesn't have any attribute error? Are you joking? If that's true then why have we been playing PES all this time?

That's not what he is saying.

 

[Lami]

Re: Fifa 11

Well that's exactly what I've read and quoted...

Anyway, I'm waiting for this game to come out and see for myself if any of these promised changes are properly implemented, just like every year.

 

[romagnoli]

Re: Fifa 11

Lami, read the WHOLE post again and think about the point I'm making.

 

[Lami]

Re: Fifa 11

Lami, read the WHOLE post again and think about the point I'm making.

I'm feeling kinda thick now tbh. Maybe its the choc shake.

 

[jonneymendoza]

Re: Fifa 11

For me the whole manual/semi/assisted debate comes down to only one thing, keeping the AI competitive without them resorting to cheating (ie super statting), with Fifa08 I had to play on all manual so that Professional was competitive because World Class/Legendary was too super statted, I also had to set myself certain rules such as only 2 players can be bought per season and other than that only free transfers and loans etc. etc. 09 and 10 were a bit better so I ended up on a semi/world class combo (shooting/crossing/short passing semi with through balls/long passing manual) which worked fairly well, still had to restrict how much I improved my own team else it became too easy but the game was enjoyable, hopefully with the work they're doing on personality+™ (*vomit*) and the AI improvements it will mean that the AI is really well balanced and the game is challenging enough to make it enjoyable without resorting to super statting.

Season mode in FIFA is shit. PES's master league has more features that make it feel like your actually playing a season of football

 

[romagnoli]

Re: Fifa 11

No. My mentioning of Amateur to Legendary was because, if the game doesn't use stats boosts, what makes a team on Amateur play so much worse than the same team on Legendary?

The virtual person holding the pad controlling the same team.

This is the point. EA for better or worse opted to represent each difficulty level as a different standard of virtual 'player' holding the other pad.

As I said before, it's this player who gets a reaction/decision boost, not the players on the pitch. Everything the CPU does, you could theoretically do. This is why calling it scripting is wrong, and why calling it a stats boost is technically wrong, and why EA take any talk of the game being scripted as something to ignore when in reality it's often the forum poster using the wrong terminology.

I'm not expecting them to come up with unbelievably realistic AI model, but I think the thing that bugs me most is the way that every team, when they go into GOD mode, become the same. No matter if it's Brazil or Man U, who could conceivably play near god like football, or if it's San Marino or Accrington, who also become near perfect and god like. You start a match against Accrington, but by the end, they've become Man U. This has improved to some degree in WC.

This is a problem that stems from the passing perfection and inadequate
stat implications elsewhere. I narrowly lost to Man Utd 3-2 as Accrington on assisted controls as part of a test I was doing, and I managed to play like Arsenal in the process. My stats weren't being boosted; it was the person controlling the pad (me) outplaying the opposition because stats didn't matter.

As I've said already (if not here then elsewhere) I think the problem is that EA are putting too much of the emphasis of raising your game for the last art of the match on the AI and not enough on the attributes of the players, which gives, as you've said, an imbalance as to which teams really do step up in the dying minutes.

The other thing in WC is that if you play against say Slovenia in a qualifier, they're just Slovenia. Play against them in the Finals, they've beomce Slovenia +1, in the last 16, Slovenia +2, in the QFs, Sloevnia +3. I get a real sense that I'm just playing against a generic QF team. If San Marino got to the SFs, they'd probably be just the same as Brazil in the SFs. I remember playing one WC Final against something like Russia, and they were ridiculously good. Out of curiosity, I kept quitting and restarting the match at lower levels, and even on Amateur, they were still tough. Some serious boosting going on there.

I guess for the world cup the difficulty you select is being overridden. I'd imagine the final is being controlled by the Legendary Ai.

 

[Placebo]

Re: Fifa 11

Season mode in FIFA is shit. PES's master league has more features that make it feel like your actually playing a season of football

Hardly.

 

[Jumbo_]

Re: Fifa 11

Agreed.

Aside from the shark heads, the lack of realistic league system is one of PES's worst features IMO.

 

[pepper63]

Re: Fifa 11

Jonney you haven't taken your meds again blad!

 

[Nick Cave]

Re: Fifa 11

Season mode in FIFA is shit. PES's master league has more features that make it feel like your actually playing a season of football

It has some good features in there for sure but it's fantasy league football however you dress it up...

 

[winston]

Re: Fifa 11

The virtual person holding the pad controlling the same team.

This is the point. EA for better or worse opted to represent each difficulty level as a different standard of virtual 'player' holding the other pad.

As I said before, it's this player who gets a reaction/decision boost, not the players on the pitch.

Ah, ok. Makes reasonable sense now.

This is why calling it scripting is wrong

I was always aware it was not scripting in the sense that entire passages of play, and every player and ball movement, are completely scripted with no human intervention possible. I call it scripting because things like the boost are scripted to happen.

This is a problem that stems from the passing perfection and inadequate
stat implications elsewhere. I narrowly lost to Man Utd 3-2 as Accrington on assisted controls as part of a test I was doing, and I managed to play like Arsenal in the process. My stats weren't being boosted; it was the person controlling the pad (me) outplaying the opposition because stats didn't matter.

As I've said already (if not here then elsewhere) I think the problem is that EA are putting too much of the emphasis of raising your game for the last art of the match on the AI and not enough on the attributes of the players, which gives, as you've said, an imbalance as to which teams really do step up in the dying minutes.

It'll be interesting to see how much effect stats have in 11. If they can tone down the artifiical boosting and put far more emphasis on stats, it could be a big improvement in enjoyment. One worry, PES has clearly been stats driven, yet also clearly had god mode, where I suspect stats are being boosted/over-ridden.

I guess for the world cup the difficulty you select is being overridden. I'd imagine the final is being controlled by the Legendary Ai.

My suspicion also. Again, more emphasis on stats would hopefully help increase the difficulty as you progress through a tournament, because you will generally be playing better teams in the latter stages. This would reduce the need to artificially boost the AI team as much. For all that I can understand why they do it, I simply don't like it. If I choose to play on Prof level, that's the level I want to play. If some weakish team happens to get to the WC final, they are still a weakish team and shouldn't be boosted beyond recognition. When Millwall got to the FA Cup final a few years back, they didn't suddenly play like Chelsea. They may (or may not) have raised their game a little, but Man U got an easy final. Some teams actually freeze in finals and play well below par.

 

[romagnoli]

Re: Fifa 11

I've asked a couple of the others who went to Guildford if they noticed the AI boosting and they said they didn't. I asked if they knew what I meant and they said they did.

It doesn't mean that it isn't there - they agree that it might just not have kicked in - but fingers crossed. I did PM Gary and insist to Gcooley that it does exist, so awareness should be up!

 

[Rodelero]

Re: Fifa 11

To add to that - a lot of the problem is that there is a huge lack of differentiation between various players. The way the CPU plays is not very dependent on player attributes in FIFA 10 at least. One of the main things FIFA 11 hopes to solve is how many attributes do so little.

I've done quite a few tests on quite a few stats which show they do almost nothing at all. Stamina makes little difference - and fatigue does little anyway - things like passing stats as Romagnoli say are again, almost irrelevant if not irrelevant. Tackling is similar - in fact the only stats which make large differences are physical ones - strength, height, pace, acceleration. This is one thing which will largely increase the feeling of the teams being largely similar - because arguably the main difference between them is formation and physical prowess.

There is no doubt that the AI in FIFA is lacking - but I think there might be a fairly big difference purely with personality +.

 

[winston]

Re: Fifa 11

I've asked a couple of the others who went to Guildford if they noticed the AI boosting and they said they didn't. I asked if they knew what I meant and they said they did.

It doesn't mean that it isn't there - they agree that it might just not have kicked in - but fingers crossed. I did PM Gary and insist to Gcooley that it does exist, so awareness should be up!

If they were playing friendlies, I'd expect the boost to be negligible anyway.

To add to that - a lot of the problem is that there is a huge lack of differentiation between various players. The way the CPU plays is not very dependent on player attributes in FIFA 10 at least. One of the main things FIFA 11 hopes to solve is how many attributes do so little.

I've done quite a few tests on quite a few stats which show they do almost nothing at all. Stamina makes little difference - and fatigue does little anyway - things like passing stats as Romagnoli say are again, almost irrelevant if not irrelevant. Tackling is similar - in fact the only stats which make large differences are physical ones - strength, height, pace, acceleration. This is one thing which will largely increase the feeling of the teams being largely similar - because arguably the main difference between them is formation and physical prowess.

There is no doubt that the AI in FIFA is lacking - but I think there might be a fairly big difference purely with personality +.

I played BAP mode in FIFA10 a fair bit, where you could manually increase whatever stats you wanted as you gained experience. As well as speed/agility and such like, I certainly noticed that improving shooting/finishing stats had an effect. Likewise the crossing stat. At first, all the corners I took went straight to cpu guys, but when I focussed on boosted my crossing stat, I started to find my guys.

 

[romagnoli]

Re: Fifa 11

The passing error system is actually taken from what they've already done for the shooting. I've noticed the error for crossing too - the less effective crossers tend to boot the ball out for a goal kick more often.

I agree with Rod that the personality work going in should actually unlock a fair bit of variety without the AI even having to be reworked. It's chiefly decision making, composure, vision and positivity of play that need to replace the blanket AI setup for me. Also the introduction of traits like 'plays down the centre' for people like Gerrard, or 'drops off the frontline' for Berbatov, things like 'crosses often' etc etc.

The next gen should be awesome for this.

 

[CarlitosCZE]

Re: Fifa 11

So all the things like Personality+ and new passing system wont have any effect on full manual controls? Thats a shame. It should affect also manual passing. I mean, when you are passing from a hard position or with the wrong foot, in these cases there should be some error-effect also on manual.
Im a manual player, i really love it, but there should be more personality even in this mode. If course in FIFA 10 R. Carlos shots are faster than Bojans, but i hoped there will be more differences between players on manual controls in FIFA 11 Sorry for my english

 

[romagnoli]

Re: Fifa 11

Two things.

Firstly: I have said now, several times including in my post at half 4 in the middle of all that lot, that semi and manual passing both have attribute-based error. I think i've said so in the PES thread as well, when disproving the exact same fallacy over there.

So all the things like Personality+ and new passing system wont have any effect on full manual controls? Thats a shame. It should affect also manual passing. I mean, when you are passing from a hard position or with the wrong foot, in these cases there should be some error-effect also on manual.
Im a manual player, i really love it, but there should be more personality even in this mode. If course in FIFA 10 R. Carlos shots are faster than Bojans, but i hoped there will be more differences between players on manual controls in FIFA 11 Sorry for my english

Carlitos,

see above.

 

[drekkard]

Re: Fifa 11

I just lost a very long long post and I'm lazy to write it against, so I will sum it up loosing all the subtelties:

- Difficulty: I would love to have no difficulty levels. Difficulty should come itself by the difference of the two teams. If I play Albania against Brazil, it should be near impossible. The other way around should be very easy. They won't do it for marketing purposes, but it would make things more logical.

- Stats boosting: though I respect everything said and I know how things work, there has always been something I'm still waiting to be justified: speed catching up. How come, if it's not by stats boosting of any kind, CPU players can catch up my fastes striker? It definitely HAPPENS in the game, so some "cheating" must be done. The same happens in the "inertia" factor. CPU players are bound to change direction quickier than my players. That CAN'T be done by a human player with the joystick, we have no control about that and it's clearly not "reaction time" based, so again, it's blatant CHEATING. I've seen many times a CPU defender make a rush of 4 meters doing 4 quick steps to catch the ball while my striker enters "slow motion" and can even complete 1 step of 1/2 meter to reach it. Which is the explanation to that, then?

I'm just curious because as a programmer I can understand what they're doing, how they do it and the need for it because of the lack of real AI. But it's quite obvious there IS stat boosting in some way in specific situations (making CPU stats up OR my player's stats down as PES used to do), or at least the CPU is bending the rules of the game to his benefit (their players being less prone to inertia, for example).