Fifa 11 Xbox 360/PS3

Re: Fifa 11

An increase in AI reactions times isn't a stat boost?

Out of interest, what's EA's explanation of the difference between playing against any given team on amateur and the same team on legendary?

And what's the difference between playing any given team in a qualifier and the same team in the World Cup Final?
 
Re: Fifa 11

No!! It's a boost in the ability of the CPU opponent's ability to respond to onscreen activity and press buttons and directions on the pad. It has absolutely nothing to do with stats or attributes. The players do not speed up, get stronger or shoot more powerfully/pass more accurately than they already could.

The 5 different difficulty levels are meant to represent 5 different standard levels of human opponent. That's my understanding of what EA are trying to do. No idea about the WC qualies vs finals.
 
Re: Fifa 11

Why's there a boost in the first place? Can't it be just stat and fatigue based?
 
Re: Fifa 11

andythom77 said:
^ and attacking mentality, tactics, formation depending on situation/scoreline
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This is what it should be. More men forward, more direct/long speculative passing, attacking formations and attacking substitutions.

Increased reactions is, even if not literally, in effect, a stat boost. Decision making should be more speculative, not improved to be perfect.
 
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Re: Fifa 11

I don't think the system is good enough (stating the obvious), I understand the way they are going about it as Roma explains, however the major flaw in that system is that the increase in cpu difficulty feels as though it's a fake increase in "stats".

Just because the higher level is still an accurate representation within their stat range only highlights that the rest of the skill level is manipulated to be less.

Essentially the end of match boost should be linked to tactics & mentality. So if a team has 50% aggression that should dynamically change to 80% if behind, same maybe for pressure and a few of the other settings. An extra level could be tactics (formations, players, etc). As long as the new use of stats and the fatigue is properly done the mentality/tactics should be enough.

If anything in real life teams don't improve in the last 10 min. with more concentration or faster reactions, they change mentality more then anything. Champions are created because of their mental ability, not physical! Look at how many last minute goals teams like Manu score, it isn't that Rooney has decided he needs to wake up and be more precise, it's the mentality to be able to have give more pressure and take more risks whilst keeping their skill level the same. That is what differs between players and teams.

And the same can be said for gamers, it's their ability to keep their skill and composure in high pressure matches/situations that makes them better then the others.

And thinking of an improvement for FIFA12, how about dynamic custom tactics. It's being introduced is PES this year and is a basic element of football.
 
Re: Fifa 11

And importantly, late goals are conceded because the players are fatigued. Fatigued players make more errors, both attackers and defenders. And with more balls humped towards the penalty box, and more players now attacking, more chances are created.
 
Re: Fifa 11

I disagree that Man Utd in particular over the past 15 or so years gets so many last minute goals by staying the same in terms of clinicism or decision making in general. Yes they lump people forwards but there is a significant amount of increased urgency in their play and you can see that the decision making, while very much on the offensive, is typically about taking fewer risks - it's about passing the ball around trying to find the gap to exploit, or the person in th best position to put the cross in. The players are typically more accurate because they need to make every pass, shot, header etc count.

This is something that in real life is tied to composure and determination of players, rather than just a blanket rule for everyone. In that sense it is wrong for the AI to try and simulate the behaviour of a human player rather than going on a footballer-by-footballer basis (something that has dogged the series of late). It is also poorly implemented so the AI doesn't feel human anyway. But I know for a fact that my decision making ramps up under the increased pressure of being behind or needing a result in the dying minutes of a match, and the same is true of any decent player of any sports game.

Edit: I agree that fatigue is a factor too. In fact it is what separates those with weak mental strength from those who have the ability to step it up in spite of their tiredness. Again, I think it's a valid concept to try and simulate this very real aspect of football but it's poorly done.
 
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Re: Fifa 11

Winston, what you want is simply not going to happen for a fair time. Computers aren't as clever as human beings when it comes to this. You're going to have to accept that if they cannot both be realistic, and fair, and still give a good challenge to better players. What you seem to want is for the only difference between Amateur and Legendary to be in how intelligently they play - but from a technical perspective this is impossible. Part of the way that they are going to get better is going to be because they get faster at reacting, or they play a more effective set of tactics, or they can pass better or shoot better.

It's always going to feel like their stats are better - there is nothing 'realistic' about difficulty levels in the first place. Fatigue feels like it makes no difference primarily because it pretty much doesn't.

Could it be made better in terms of just taking down certain elements of the script down a few notches? Sure it can - but it's unrealistic to want some brilliant AI which is going to play differently time after time, and at the same time not feel scripted - and at the same time give you a real challenge. In a lot of ways PES does a better job with this, but at the same time, I was winning on the demo on the hardest difficulty - and I haven't bought a PES game since PES 6.

The more difficult the level of AI the more it will have to cheat - by which I mean it will be better at some things than a human and worse than others. It's just a fact of life - and it's why I focus all of my feedback on the online game because the offline one has an insoluble issue by my reckoning. I remember that on the old FIFA's for the PC where you could see the settings in the code, the 'Professional' level seemed to be the sort of one which didn't just arbitrarily boost the stats, of the goalkeeper in particular. It's probably still the same.
 
Re: Fifa 11

The fact is that AI could utterly destroy you if coded to do so. Set reaction times to zero and decision making to only choose actions with a 100% probability of success. It wouldn't play with flair, but be mechanically ruthless. There would be absolutely nothing fun about that though. The trick is making the CPU have human weaknesses, like our reaction times for example, or by reducing the CPU's decision making.

Games have never pushed AI though. You get chess games, and there are some strategy games that do clever stuff with saving your moves to hard drive and then using your past behaviour to weigh up what you're likely to do in future, but in truth the histry of games has been mostly FPS's where bad guys run at you, or platformers where the enemies just move from side to side. Even fighting games blatantly cheat (Seth in Street Fighter 4 is 100 times worse than FIFA's boost). Difficulty levels are often stapled onto games using the same bullshit like more shot damage or more accurate AI, rather than more intelligent AI. Even friendly AI in squad based FPS's are pretty shoddy compared to a team of four human beings.

Edit: btw I have just sent a message on to Gary P about what everyone thinks of the CPU. I do think the greatly improved defending will help you counteract this, but obviously the proof of the pudding is in the eating.
 
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Re: Fifa 11

Placebo said:
FIFA Soccer 11 Video Game, Personality Features Developer Diary HD | Game Trailers & Videos | GameTrailers.com

Thought that came across as pretty impressive, would have been good to know where Assisted/Semi/Manual come into the mix though.
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That's a cracking video and the reason why manual should be taken out of Fifa and just let the player attributes make the difference

let a top notch player make a good pass/shot 7 times out of 10 and the shitter players obviously less so the game is random and not so easy
 
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Re: Fifa 11

Coopz said:
That's a cracking video and the reason why manual should be taken out of Fifa and just let the player attributes make the difference

let a top notch player make a good pass/shot 7 times out of 10 and the shitter players obviously less so the game is random and not so easy
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Uhm why? And god no. Actually I don't see where you get that manual should be removed from that video?
 
Re: Fifa 11

Aw he'll no. Manual is the future - even Konami have come to terms with that. Attributes affect semi and manual, as I've said before.
 
Re: Fifa 11

Imagine going back not being able to try to put the ball in space as you want... :CRY:
 
Re: Fifa 11

Gab_ said:
Imagine going back not being able to try to put the ball in space as you want... :CRY:
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What's that got to do with manual though? You're talking about more angles/directions. I think we should have as much directions as possible, put the ball where we want but then the player's accuracy stat being the precision factor.
 
Re: Fifa 11

Manual should be scrapped because the attributes dont matter at all

Assisted with plenty of errors is the way forward

Try playing a game with really shit teams on Assisted on Fifa 10 and you can have brilliant games due to how hit and miss the passing and shooting is

The World Class teams spoil it all because they are too good and all the passes are bang on and shots go in practically all the time, that's what they need to change
 
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Re: Fifa 11

Lami said:
What's that got to do with manual though? You're talking about more angles/directions. I think we should have as much directions as possible, put the ball where we want but then the player's accuracy stat being the precision factor.
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You just described manual controls?
 
Re: Fifa 11

Ehm, no one wants "full" manual? Why does people bring up that when talking about manual controls? Manual controls means manual AIM.
 
Re: Fifa 11

How did i? I described more angles/directions. Manual means me deciding everything, as in I place the ball wherever I want regardless of the accuracy/precision stat and using the power gauge. This to me is useless, because then every player is exactly the same.
 
Re: Fifa 11

Coopz said:
Manual should be scrapped because the attributes dont matter at all

Assisted with plenty of errors is the way forward
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I have to agree. Semi-assisted is the way forward - best of both worlds - even PES seems to have adopted a similar system this year. I like their idea of having a manual modifier button so a manual pass can be made as and when needed.
 
Re: Fifa 11

Lami said:
How did i? I described more angles/directions. Manual means me deciding everything, as in I place the ball wherever I want regardless of the accuracy/precision stat and using the power gauge. This to me is useless, because then every player is exactly the same.
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To most (all?) manual players it certainly does NOT mean that. It means manual AIM and then it is up to the attributes of the player to try to get it there. Assisted or Semi-assisted means the CPU helps you out and decides where to try to put it based on the direction you hold the stick. This way the CPU might try to send it to wrong player or towards a player when you really want to put it in an open space.
 
Re: Fifa 11

I don't get it. What they're doing in regards of individuality would work perfectly fine for manual controls too.

This is assisted (or semi): you point the stick, the AI decides where you are going to try to hit the ball. Error is then added on that.

Manual: you point the stick and that is where your player is trying to hit the ball. Error is then added onto that.

So in that video Placebo posted above, the only difference is that with assisted/semi, the computer decided that you're going to try a 45 degree pass..with manual I decided that I'm going to try a 45 degree pass.

Seriously, what is the problem? Manual gives you more control with exactly the same individuality etc.

(This is why I've been scared for FIFA since 07. So many *****..). Assisted with error is the way backwards..
 
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Re: Fifa 11

I think you should be able to do whatever you want with any player be it pass, shoot, dribble or play the ball into space. The players stats and his position and surroundings should then decide how well it's executed...

Sorry gab I thought you meant it should just go where you aim and press irrespective of the player...
 
Re: Fifa 11

Nick Cave said:
Sorry gab I thought you meant it should just go where you aim and press irrespective of the player...
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No problem, it seems like a lot of people think of it that way. It's frustrating to me because I don't know any manual players that would ever want something like that.

I'm pretty sure that the only reason it actually is pretty much "fully" manual in FIFA 10 and earlier is because they don't have an error system in the game for passing. That's what they have implemented now in FIFA 11, so now it will hopefully be clear that manual controls actually means manual aim and nothing else.
 
Re: Fifa 11

I cheat and use semi-assisted passing, and manual everything else. I don't wanna over-think the simple stuff, but if I'm looking for the killer ball, a speculative shot, then it's nice to have the freedom to do what I want.

That being said, I think I'd use manual passing if playing against a human opponent also using it (I don't play online though) and I agree, that manual passing is aiming where you want and then attributes effecting whether the player is accurate enough to find it.
 
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