FIFA 09 PC discussion thread

Some more wonderfull insight by EA.:thumbdwn::thumbdwn:

Before I go on, I'd like to point out that Graphics power and CPU power are two very different technical parameters, and it's because of the CPU power that FIFA09 on PC can not (and does not) have the same architecture as the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 versions. The Graphics are a separate matter, and FIFA09 on PC has leading-edge graphics.

With that said, please allow me to further explain what I said earlier in this thread, as I believe that some of you may have misunderstood;

Quote:
Originally Posted by EAUK_Phenom View Post
The PC version of FIFA 09 is different to the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 versions because of the CPU processing power required for the architecture of the game.

The majority of gamers PC system's do not have enough CPU processing power[1] for this architecture[2], so FIFA09 on PC has been built to have the best possible graphics and gameplay engine while still being accessible to as many fans of the game as possible[3]. If the architecture was identical to the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 versions, FIFA09 on PC would only be accessible to 1-3% of the PC systems on the market.[4]

Having said that, FIFA09 on PC delivers a very deep gameplay engine, along with leading-edge visuals.
[1] I am aware that some PC systems are as capable as the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 (and that some are even more capable than them), but the majority of PC systems aren't (see [4]).

[2] The fact that a PC system can run Gears of War, Call of Duty, Assassin's Creed, etc. is irrelevant: the gameplay architecture of FIFA09 can not be compared to games of a different genre, and it is a fact that the majority of PC systems do not have enough CPU processing power for FIFA09 on PC to be the same as the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 versions.

[3] This means that, although some of your PC's may be able to 'handle' a better gameplay architecture, only 1-3% of PC systems on the market could 'handle' the same gameplay architecture as FIFA09 on the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 (see [4]).

[4] "If the architecture was identical to the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 versions, FIFA09 on PC would only be accessible to 1-3% of the PC systems on the market." That is a fact.

However, because the PC continues to benefit from constant graphics and performance increases (and always will), the FIFA series on the PC will continue to improve each year, and it's architecture will, in time, 'surpass/exceed' the Xbox 360 and the PlayStation 3 versions.
I didn't say that FIFA 2010 on PC will (or won't) be the same as the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 versions of the game (because I do not know whether it will (or won't) be, at this moment in time).


Thank you for the constructive feedback that most of you have provided on this subject, so far.

Phenom
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http://forums.electronicarts.co.uk/fifa-09-pc/337855-why-gameplay-not-next-gen-2.html
 
stefan9 said:
Some more wonderfull insight by EA.:thumbdwn::thumbdwn:



http://forums.electronicarts.co.uk/fifa-09-pc/337855-why-gameplay-not-next-gen-2.html
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And a response ;))

Quote:
Originally Posted by The EA Rep
[1] I am aware that some PC systems are as capable as the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 (and that some are even more capable than them), but the majority of PC systems aren't (see [4]).
But the majority of PCs aren't used for gaming - those that are tend to be alot more powerful than the PS3/Xbox 360.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The EA Rep
[2] The fact that a PC system can run Gears of War, Call of Duty, Assassin's Creed, etc. is irrelevant: the gameplay architecture of FIFA09 can not be compared to games of a different genre, and it is a fact that the majority of PC systems do not have enough CPU processing power for FIFA09 on PC to be the same as the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 versions.
It's not irrelevant at all. It means these companies were competent enough to be able to port a title properly. What the EA rep is saying here is his company lack the experience or ability to do a port.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The EA Rep
[3] This means that, although some of your PC's may be able to 'handle' a better gameplay architecture, only 1-3% of PC systems on the market could 'handle' the same gameplay architecture as FIFA09 on the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 (see [4]).
But the vast majority of Gaming PCs, i.e. the people who would buy the product, could.

Quote:
Originally Posted by The EA Rep
[4] "If the architecture was identical to the Xbox 360 and PlayStation 3 versions, FIFA09 on PC would only be accessible to 1-3% of the PC systems on the market." That is a fact.
Remaking the same 'point' as number 3 then - and just as incorrect.

IMHO this marks why PC gaming is dying though - any old rep can spout rubbish like this and it gets reported/accepted. If PC gaming had a cheerleader who had the might to 'mute' silly comments like that, things would be alot better.
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Yeah, it's all bullshit. A very good point about the majority of gaming PCs being able to play it.

My honest thoughts - EA are worried about gaming piracy, and they had the basis of a PS2 game that they could port cheaply and easily. Their losses are minimised; in fact it may be the only way they can make a profit.

It is still a good game - it's just not as good as it could be. Let's not forget that EVERY version of Pro Evo so far is based on PS2 architecture, including 2009. Only the console versions of FIFA 09 have moved on from that, and all the better for it.
 
Wowlman said:
Yeah, it's all bullshit. A very good point about the majority of gaming PCs being able to play it.

My honest thoughts - EA are worried about gaming piracy, and they had the basis of a PS2 game that they could port cheaply and easily. Their losses are minimised; in fact it may be the only way they can make a profit.

It is still a good game - it's just not as good as it could be. Let's not forget that EVERY version of Pro Evo so far is based on PS2 architecture, including 2009. Only the console versions of FIFA 09 have moved on from that, and all the better for it.
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no it aint. the PES of the pc is based directly from the console version from PES08 mate. and i was able to play that at med/high on a laptop and fifa09 doesnt look that amazing compared to it. maybe your talking about actual gameplay being the same has ps2? maybe so but still i fail to see how my 4 year old cant cope with next gen fifa.

if it cant handle next gen fifa on high, i can always turn down the settings because at the end of teh day, gameplay comes first. couldnt care less if fifa pc looked like PES on the psp as long as the animations and gameplay are the same has the 360 version i will be happy
 
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jonneymendoza said:
no it aint. the PES of the pc is based directly from the console version from PES08 mate. and i was able to play that at med/high on a laptop and fifa09 doesnt look that amazing compared to it. maybe your talking about actual gameplay being the same has ps2? maybe so but still i fail to see how my 4 year old cant cope with next gen fifa.

if it cant handle next gen fifa on high, i can always turn down the settings because at the end of teh day, gameplay comes first. couldnt care less if fifa pc looked like PES on the psp as long as the animations and gameplay are the same has the 360 version i will be happy
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Good point you can tweak on PC to keep the thing playable there is no excuse to down grade the PC title... I see Hellsbells has gone again... :LOL:
 
You would think EA could at least tell us what it would take to run the next gen version, eg a core2due 3GHz and 2GB RAM or whatever they think is only accesible to 1-3%.

And I still think for the relatively easy port from xbox 360 - even if a min req is a 360 pad for windows - its worth them making it an option for those lucky few, even if the game costs £5 more than the normal PC version.
 
IMO it's a completely flawed argument to say that the next gen console version of PES runs on PC so why doesn't the next gen console version of Fifa because they're completely different, PES is a very low end game in terms of graphics and gameplay engine, it doesn't have proper rendered faces and such, the players are much lower poly, as are the crowds and everything else, animations are old gen and very simple, there's no real physics/collisions engine in the game either, it's no brainer that PES runs ok on the average PC.
 
jonneymendoza said:
no it aint. the PES of the pc is based directly from the console version from PES08 mate. and i was able to play that at med/high on a laptop and fifa09 doesnt look that amazing compared to it. maybe your talking about actual gameplay being the same has ps2? maybe so but still i fail to see how my 4 year old cant cope with next gen fifa.

if it cant handle next gen fifa on high, i can always turn down the settings because at the end of teh day, gameplay comes first. couldnt care less if fifa pc looked like PES on the psp as long as the animations and gameplay are the same has the 360 version i will be happy
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Yeah I meant the PS2 gameplay. PES 2008 gameplay in fact appeared to take a few steps back from the PS2 version's gameplay.

I don't know. I would assume a half decent PC could run next-gen FIFA, but then we don't know quite how much processing power is actually required. I am fairly sure a fully-fledged footy game requires a lot more processing power than ANY first-person shooter.

When people say their PCs match up to the consoles, I very much doubt they would know how to compare it. You can talk about specs, but consoles are dedicated machines that avoid resource-heavy operating systems and such, which is why they appear to be able to do more than the average PC. And don't forget Sony still make a loss selling their consoles at around £300! There must be a reason for that.
 
Placebo said:
IMO it's a completely flawed argument to say that the next gen console version of PES runs on PC so why doesn't the next gen console version of Fifa because they're completely different, PES is a very low end game in terms of graphics and gameplay engine, it doesn't have proper rendered faces and such, the players are much lower poly, as are the crowds and everything else, animations are old gen and very simple, there's no real physics/collisions engine in the game either, it's no brainer that PES runs ok on the average PC.
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EA themselves discount your arguement (mostly). They say the problem is processing power not graphics so from the above that leaves physics/collisions. Having played PES 2008 on both PC and a mates xbox 360, I don't see much difference in gameplay. Now I know PES 2008 isn't great and I think they lost out in gameplay AI by trying to implement the learning AI part. The laerning part in itself has kept PES far more playable for longer as a single player game.

PES have shown consistantly better gameplay than fifa for years and they've done it on PC. IF the new next-gen fifa (and last years for that mater) require a top end PC to process the AI it must be highly complex, I want to know what EA say it would take to run it. They've proved graphics can be scaled and other games have proved the PC can beat xbox 360 for graphics.

I'm actually enjoying the fifa demo right now on PC and will probably buyget the game but its frustrating that its not the same game as on consoles. Its a pretty decent game (at least short term) but as usual EA appear to have under-developed it and I'll rely on the community to finish the job.
 
If you think about it, the actual processing power of a 360, and certainly a PS3, is probably equivalent to the 1-3% of PCs that EA quote could run next-gen FIFA. Doesn't the PS3 cell processor have 6 cores or something? So maybe they aren't talking complete bullshit after all.

We know most gaming PCs could do the graphics, but who knows how much is going on under the hood, as it were?

Anyway - the point stands - FIFA on PC is a good (but not amazing) game, and I'm glad to see a few more people coming round to that fact. It'll keep me going until at least Xmas when I may buy a 360 anyway.
 
Wowlman said:
If you think about it, the actual processing power of a 360, and certainly a PS3, is probably equivalent to the 1-3% of PCs that EA quote could run next-gen FIFA. Doesn't the PS3 cell processor have 6 cores or something? So maybe they aren't talking complete bullshit after all.

We know most gaming PCs could do the graphics, but who knows how much is going on under the hood, as it were?

Anyway - the point stands - FIFA on PC is a good (but not amazing) game, and I'm glad to see a few more people coming round to that fact. It'll keep me going until at least Xmas when I may buy a 360 anyway.
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processes dont work like that mate. the more cores doesn't actually mean its faster. it just means it can do more stuff simultaneously.

the 360 only has 3 cores and the ps3 like you said has 6. but the question is, what speed are they running at.

Ok lets compare a game called world in conflict

worldinconflict-screen2.jpg
.

This is a massive RTS type game and its very similar to a footy game where various things are happening on screen all at once. this game has great graphics and physics spread across the whole battle zone and this game runs well on a 2-3 year old system on high settings.

my single core pentium 4 can run that game on low settings. yes it looks shit BUT it still has the same animation and collision physics seen in the high settings more or less. why couldnt EA do this? yes not many can play on high settings but come on, this is pc where talking about. pc's can "change" its settings to make it playable unlike consoles.

EA are just throwing away a wasted opportunity because i truely believe that if they made it next gen along with 10v10 BAP online. it will sell very well as pirated copies CANNOT be played online legitimately.
 
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Graphics I agree with you on 100%. As for the AI and actual gameplay engine, that may well require a processor with 3+ cores... which automatically rules out most PCs. Not many people have quad core yet.

I'm just speculating anyway, there's really no way of telling.
 
Wowlman said:
Graphics I agree with you on 100%. As for the AI and actual gameplay engine, that may well require a processor with 3+ cores... which automatically rules out most PCs. Not many people have quad core yet.

I'm just speculating anyway, there's really no way of telling.
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Which is why EA should tell us. I'll swallow the "it won't run on most pc's arguement" if they offer some facts to back it up. Maybe it is all about simultanious tasks, wouldn't be too hard to believe but if you have a fast enough single core processor you could probably do most of it sequencially without knowing much difference as the end result.

I suspect they haven't thought any further than keyboard control and therefore dismissed it due to 8-directional controls only. I know it can now be played on moude but by default running is still keyboard controlled so therefore 8-way max.

Probably think making an xbox pad a min requirement would reduce sales so therefore need to build for 8-way on PC.
 
What kind of control do the consoles use - is it 16-way movement? It's certainly not 360 degrees. I actually read an article a while back giving a very good reason for this - it strangely takes a huge amount of processing power to render realistic 360 degree movement, complete with foot planting etc.
 
PhilLUFC said:
Which is why EA should tell us. I'll swallow the "it won't run on most pc's arguement" if they offer some facts to back it up. Maybe it is all about simultanious tasks, wouldn't be too hard to believe but if you have a fast enough single core processor you could probably do most of it sequencially without knowing much difference as the end result.

I suspect they haven't thought any further than keyboard control and therefore dismissed it due to 8-directional controls only. I know it can now be played on moude but by default running is still keyboard controlled so therefore 8-way max.

Probably think making an xbox pad a min requirement would reduce sales so therefore need to build for 8-way on PC.
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Maybe they are just looking for pathetic excuses?
 
oFifa09o said:
Maybe they are just looking for pathetic excuses?
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Thats my thinking and why I'm very much in the "EA are :censor:'s" camp. I feel as though I'm being short changed, only being able to play 3 directions of through pass is ridiculous, I need more choices!

In my view its up to EA to prove their stance with specifics why it won't work on PC.

Oh, the free pass on PES08 seems to be more than 8-way, maybe 16 but feels like its 360 degree to me.
 
EA in general are being slagged off big time amongs pc gamers. take a look at the spore and cyrsis warhead Thread.

This is due to the DRM/only allowed 3 installs crap there pulling with all there latest titles and this game could have teh same shit too.

if you dont know what DRM is, its like spyware that slows down your pc and can only be deleted with a reformat of your hdd.
 
Guys, I found this. It's a reply from Paul Hossack on the actual EA forums, regarding some of the comments they have received about the demo.

I think it goes some way towards explaining why they couldn't use next-gen gameplay - the next-gen console processors are way better than most PCs, as I suspected.

It mentions through balls, interestingly, which both myself and PhilLUFC have said only appear to go in three directions (diagonal left/right or forwards, although lately I swear I've been able to control it better). I'm not sure if his comments mean they've fixed that or if it's just another excuse. We will see.

Hey guys.

I was very excited to hear your reactions to the FIFA 09 PC demo when we released it last Thursday, and I’ve been reading the forums a lot since. [I’m writing this Monday night – baker011 will be posting it shortly.] Thanks a lot for all the posts and feedback, the good and the bad – just as long as you keep it clean. Let me tackle three types of comments that have been repeated.

· Positive Comments

· Feedback/Bugs

· PC vs. 360/PS3

Positive Comments:

Obviously, thanks for the support. The team has worked really hard on the PC version this year and I’m very proud of what they accomplished. More so than any year in recent memory. A lot of the work we did this year was based on suggestions from the community. I even talked with some pro-gamers a month ago and we got in a couple final fixes based on their feedback. See FIFA 09 PC as the important, first step towards a better and better FIFA game on PC. Other things to check out:

· More Active Shielding: Just hold Sprint while not moving in any direction. Your player will actively protect the ball. Outcome based on strength and speed of both players.

· Scoop Turn: New trick move from standing position. I like to use it after going into shielding and releasing Sprint. Take right analog out to the side and do a half-circle in front of you. Time it well to turn to the opposite side that the defender is coming around.

· Rainbow Flick: New trick move from standing position that I also use after shielding. Use only with high skill dribblers. Take right analog out forward and do a half-circle to either side finishing behind you.

· Player Run with Mouse Controls: Scroll the ‘scroll wheel’ over empty space to send a team-mate on a run to that spot. If you left-click at the same time, your pass and team-mate will converge on the same spot – can lead to great passing build-up.

Feedback/Bugs:

As I read through your comments in the demo thread, I’m passing on the common ones to the team. It’s incredibly late in our process now, but we are trying. The demo is very close to the final quality of the game – we have just fixed a couple more bugs since the demo, and you’ll be able to play the full game soon. Let me address some of the most-often raised points:

· Control Issues: I have read a number of comments around controls and control mapping. For 09, we’ve added fully customizable controls and added support for more controller types.

o If you would like a different control layout, you can customize your own controls. Whether it’s which button is the trick modifier in the mouse-controls, or anything else. You have the control now.

o For actual functional control bugs, we did a lot of testing around the keyboard/mouse and our supported controllers. That said, I’ve forwarded some of your posts to the team to investigate if the issue is in the final game.

· Through Balls: Some gamers have mentioned they’ve had problems with through balls. In FIFA 09 PC, they are set to Manual by default. This means you have to have very good aim to play a great through ball, but it also means that you can play the exact ball that you want with the right practice. This is something we added in 08 and I love the challenge. If you prefer the automatic through balls, you can turn off “Manual Through Balls” in the controls screen.

· Ball Size: The ball size was not changed this year at all. It’s a trade-off between how it looks in the NIS’s and how it looks from the main gameplay camera. The ball is the size it is based previous usability feedback from the gameplay camera. I can tell that this is an important issue for you guys – we’ll look into possibly handling both situations through different sizes for different cameras, but that will have to wait for next year due to the potential knock-on effects of a change like that.

· Nets: Unfortunately, we are too late to make any changes to the look of the net at this stage. We are definitely taking this as high priority feedback for the future.

PC vs. 360/PS3:

And saving the best (or hottest topic) for last, I’m going to give you the straight goods here. We heard you last year when many of you on the forums were asking for “NG on PC”. On FIFA 08 360/PS3, the gameplay and the rendering were both different than FIFA 08 PC. At the start of the FIFA 09 PC cycle, we looked at what it would take to get 360/PS3 gameplay and rendering to work on PC. What we learned quickly is that there is a big difference between the gameplay and the rendering. For the rendering, it was very scalable – same as Crysis, CoD4, etc. The better your graphics card, the better we could make FIFA PC look. If you didn’t have the best card, the game would play the same, but wouldn’t look as great. That’s what you expect for any PC game. When it came to gameplay, the story was different. When we re-wrote the gameplay for FIFA 360/PS3 a couple years ago, we took full advantage of the multiple, multi-core processors (actually 3 essentially dual-core CPU’s on 360, and 6 available Cell processors on PS3). The bottleneck for getting “NG on PC” was the CPU (i.e. it was AI, not graphics). Unfortunately, unlike graphics/rendering, you can’t scale gameplay depending on the CPU in the machine because the game needs to “play” the same on each machine – you can't just turn off the decisions, positioning, or inverse kinematics for some of the players. Why does FIFA 360/PS3 gameplay use so much CPU compared to Crysis, CoD4, etc.? It’s because of the depth of the gameplay (21 players making 1,000 decisions/second, the new animation system, etc.) – very different from the amount of gameplay ever running in an FPS. This meant if we ported the 360/PS3 gameplay to PC and optimized it, we would have to increase the minimum spec on the CPU to a level where only around ~5% of FIFA PC gamers would meet it. As much as any of us wanted to do this, it did not make sense.

Instead, we decided to do the work of bringing a big improvement to the graphics (as many of you have noted), further polish and enhance our deep gameplay engine, and work on some PC-specific features. We didn’t want to just give you a port, but rather the best experience for FIFA on the PC. This included the mouse controls for the keyboard gamers, the online widgets, the higher-res menus, and fully customizable controls.

Hope you found this helpful. For those who have been with FIFA on the PC for a while, you’ll recognize that FIFA 09 is the biggest investment we’ve put in the platform in a while. It’s a sign of things to come.

Thanks again and keep the feedback coming!

Cheers.

Paul
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Hmmm, sort of half answers the issues. I bypass the positive bits, I simply don't yet have the ability for tricks, I take too long to process what I need to do (maybe I need a processer upgrade) that I've lost the ball before my thumb hits the trick stick. Also find if I stop to shield I'm in more trouble than if I try the almost impossible pass before I get closed down.

As for the bugs, not really answered the through ball one as defend it. I've done a few now as well which aren't based on 8-way but I suspect there's some automation going on despite being set to manual - ie every time its not straight or 45 degree diagonal it lands on my players boot. I'm sure there are many more which won't be addressed and it annoys me how sluggish the menu's are.

On to the main topic. They seem to be confirming the multi-threading needs to be 3 cores minimum theorp (or a very fast dual core) but again no specifics. The reasoning makes some sort of sense, I get that and the AI is clearly very complex and has been built over years. I do still thank that, with some effort granted, they could take the console game play and strip bits out which would have less impact on gameplay than porting the current gen version - no idea what, I'm not an expert on the AI logic but there must be some trivial decisions in that 1,000 per second.
 
PhilLUFC said:
Hmmm, sort of half answers the issues. I bypass the positive bits, I simply don't yet have the ability for tricks, I take too long to process what I need to do (maybe I need a processer upgrade) that I've lost the ball before my thumb hits the trick stick. Also find if I stop to shield I'm in more trouble than if I try the almost impossible pass before I get closed down.

As for the bugs, not really answered the through ball one as defend it. I've done a few now as well which aren't based on 8-way but I suspect there's some automation going on despite being set to manual - ie every time its not straight or 45 degree diagonal it lands on my players boot. I'm sure there are many more which won't be addressed and it annoys me how sluggish the menu's are.

On to the main topic. They seem to be confirming the multi-threading needs to be 3 cores minimum theorp (or a very fast dual core) but again no specifics. The reasoning makes some sort of sense, I get that and the AI is clearly very complex and has been built over years. I do still thank that, with some effort granted, they could take the console game play and strip bits out which would have less impact on gameplay than porting the current gen version - no idea what, I'm not an expert on the AI logic but there must be some trivial decisions in that 1,000 per second.
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Agreed.

I too have hit some killer through balls, yet others go somewhere completely different to where I want them to. So yes, clearly some automation is involved. I dread to think what 'auto' through balls are like!

I also noticed that with my Logitech Rumblepad, a lot of passes were going in seemingly random directions - occasionally even opposite to what I pressed. No such issue with my 360 controller, but obviously it shouldn't be happening at all.
 
Wowlman said:
Guys, I found this. It's a reply from Paul Hossack on the actual EA forums, regarding some of the comments they have received about the demo.

I think it goes some way towards explaining why they couldn't use next-gen gameplay - the next-gen console processors are way better than most PCs, as I suspected.
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I think its BS. He doesn't mention any specific requirements. All he says is the pc cpu can't handle it. I seriously doubt the cpu requirements on fifa 09 is more than gta4,supreme commander,world in conflict,ect.
 
At the end of the day its irrelevent whether its true or not, on PC we have a lesser game for another year and as its my chosen platform it'll make the PES/FIFA debate interesting - lets see what Konami have to offer, until then I think I'm enjoying the FIFA demo enough to buy the game next month. Won't play it much after this week as the force unleashed is out after that (on the Wii for me).
 
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