Kanouté
#NewEra
- 26 April 2008
so it's all about the colurs, eh? 
Ronaldinho_23
Premier League
bebo
Looking for a Manager
Gerd, you are the most rarest fruit I ever came across. Your thoughts sometimes baffle me at times . I tried to learn from you but I feel strange giving Spur fans compliments . Know this though my efforts came from reading your post. So, your gospel is making waves 
ben/lo zio true! then RM losing
and RM`s academy players seem to play well against their old club. Football is always subjective is it.
ben/lo zio true! then RM losing
and RM`s academy players seem to play well against their old club. Football is always subjective is it.
PLF
Legend
- 2 August 2004
A couple crazy freaky results which probably won't happen again for the whole season in the first 2 weeks and people who needed this as an excuse to bash the league and Barca/Real are getting their knickers all twisted.
Last week I saw Real beat Getafe by a non-penalty call at home (Actually they ended up winning by 2 goals at the very end but that PK call could've changed things) and Getafe played beautiful football! I know what Ben means here, only the very best teams in England play like that. And not even all of them.
Anyway, as a neutral, I wanna see competitive matches and for that reason, it does worry me at times that the gap between the top 2 and rest is getting bigger. So people are right to be voicing their concerns about that. But what IS ridiculous and does bother me as a La Liga fan is when people start comparing it to SPL or say things like this is 2nd SPL. That's when bitterness and ignorance becomes very apparent. And why is this such a dumb thing to say? Because of a simple fact. PLAYERS!!
You look at the players who play in Valencia, Sevilla, Atletico and Villarreal let's say right now (Forget even guys about World Cup Winners like Llorente and Martinez and Bilbao, etc.) and the players who've played there over past 3-5 years alone (Forlan, Aguero, etc.) and it'll become very obvious that some of the world's very BEST players play there! Players of the HIGHEST quality! We're talking Argentinian, Spanish and Brazilian internationals!
Now the day even CELTIC or Rangers can attract and have players HALF the quality of the guys like Aguero and Forlan and Giuseppe Rossi and co., I will start watching SPL, but forget about comparing the likes of Sevilla and Valencia to the OTHER SPL clubs (NON-OLD firm),
So anytime someone says La Liga is like Old Firm and SPL, then you just know they're talking out of their ass and either have personal bias getting in way or are just not familiar with the quality that is prevalent throughout majority of the teams.
And yes Zaragoza are having financial troubles. But look at their squad list one by one and compare it to a newly promoted EPL side and you'll see the players they possess are not only worse but probably better.
In short, YES, Real and Barca are miles ahead of rest right now and that's true but to be honest
1. They are the two best teams on the planet anyway. Put them in ANY other league including EPL and they will finish 1st and 2nd and rest will follow behind....
2. No, this is no SPL because although Real and Barca are ahead, the rest of teams especially about 3-4 of them have incredible quality in their squads. Where as how many quality players at highest level play for Hibs and Hearts? Motherwell? Has any world class ever played there? Celtic and Rangers the Old Firm don't have the players those do... let alone their other clubs...
Last week I saw Real beat Getafe by a non-penalty call at home (Actually they ended up winning by 2 goals at the very end but that PK call could've changed things) and Getafe played beautiful football! I know what Ben means here, only the very best teams in England play like that. And not even all of them.
Anyway, as a neutral, I wanna see competitive matches and for that reason, it does worry me at times that the gap between the top 2 and rest is getting bigger. So people are right to be voicing their concerns about that. But what IS ridiculous and does bother me as a La Liga fan is when people start comparing it to SPL or say things like this is 2nd SPL. That's when bitterness and ignorance becomes very apparent. And why is this such a dumb thing to say? Because of a simple fact. PLAYERS!!
You look at the players who play in Valencia, Sevilla, Atletico and Villarreal let's say right now (Forget even guys about World Cup Winners like Llorente and Martinez and Bilbao, etc.) and the players who've played there over past 3-5 years alone (Forlan, Aguero, etc.) and it'll become very obvious that some of the world's very BEST players play there! Players of the HIGHEST quality! We're talking Argentinian, Spanish and Brazilian internationals!
Now the day even CELTIC or Rangers can attract and have players HALF the quality of the guys like Aguero and Forlan and Giuseppe Rossi and co., I will start watching SPL, but forget about comparing the likes of Sevilla and Valencia to the OTHER SPL clubs (NON-OLD firm),
So anytime someone says La Liga is like Old Firm and SPL, then you just know they're talking out of their ass and either have personal bias getting in way or are just not familiar with the quality that is prevalent throughout majority of the teams.
And yes Zaragoza are having financial troubles. But look at their squad list one by one and compare it to a newly promoted EPL side and you'll see the players they possess are not only worse but probably better.
In short, YES, Real and Barca are miles ahead of rest right now and that's true but to be honest
1. They are the two best teams on the planet anyway. Put them in ANY other league including EPL and they will finish 1st and 2nd and rest will follow behind....
2. No, this is no SPL because although Real and Barca are ahead, the rest of teams especially about 3-4 of them have incredible quality in their squads. Where as how many quality players at highest level play for Hibs and Hearts? Motherwell? Has any world class ever played there? Celtic and Rangers the Old Firm don't have the players those do... let alone their other clubs...
I think people arguing that La Liga's lower teams playing technical football negate the SPL arguments are missing the point. If the debate was about quality of football, we'd compare it to the English Championship, or substandard leagues.
It's not about that.
It's about a 30 odd point between second and third place. That is mental. It is an uncompetitive competition. What's the point?
(I'm not saying the EPL is any better, btw - it doesn't have to be a my league is better than your league thing)
It's not about that.
It's about a 30 odd point between second and third place. That is mental. It is an uncompetitive competition. What's the point?
(I'm not saying the EPL is any better, btw - it doesn't have to be a my league is better than your league thing)
tc811
Resident Evo-Web Retard
For the record I'm not frustrated by the Fabregas deal. It's very clear Barca were the only negotiating side in the sale and I'm suprised Arsenal got as much as they did.
Great posts by the way Ben. It's surprising and a shame that a league that plays such great football has club owners that would sign away club revenues with such a stupid agreement.
PLF
Legend
- 2 August 2004
lo zio
International
- 24 October 2005
- Palermo
the thing is they're afraid of real madrid's and barçelona's retaliations. for instance, when serie a clubs fought this very same battle against milan, inter and juve, Ernesto Paolillo (inter team director) threatened palermo not to buy players from us anymore.Tc811 said:
but u see, the real issue is the strategy del nido is using. what del nido is trying to do is to build a common front against barçelona and real madrid. he wants to unite all the club owners against barça and real to force those 2 clubs to accept a change in the tv-rights negotiating system (and bring back the collective deal system).
now this strategy is never gonna work because spanish club owners just don't have the guts to stand against barça and real. i mean, just look at what happened in august\september..... del nido only managed to persuade 12 club owners... and even those eventually chickened out.
but luckily this is not the only strategy available.. there's another road, a much easier and more effective road spanish club owners could take..... and honestly i can't believe they still didn't figure it out. the alternative is to follow the italian example.
till a few years ago, serie a was in the same exact situation la liga is right now. the broadcasting rights were negotiated on an individual basis, so milan, inter and juve used to get hundreds of millions whereas the other clubs were offered ridiculous sums (palermo was once offered 8 millions for a 4 years deal!! can u believe it?!?!!).
italian club owners knew it would have been almost impossible to persuade milan, inter and juve to accept to move to a collective deal (why would they afterall? nobody wants to lose money). but then della valle and zamparini had a brilliant idea: we don't have to fight against the top clubs..... we can corner the broadcasting companies and put them in a position where they will have to do the dirty work for us and force milan, inter and juve to come to us with a white flag! that's what happened:
all the serie a clubs (except milan inter and juve) refused to negotiate any deal whatsoever with the italian broadcasters (skyitaly, rai and mediaset). they didn't just refused their offers... they refused to negotiate in the first place. at first the broadcasting companies thought it was just a bluff.
but in order to prove how serious the small clubs presidents were, they even set up a tv platform. they created an entire company (with producers, directors, cameramen, commentators and analysts). zamparini said "from now on we're going to sell our own product. so say goodbye to your serie a coverage skyitalia!".
that move scared the hell out of the broadcasters.... because they already closed a 500 millions euros deal with milan, inter and juve and that deal was worth absolutely nothing now. infact at that point in time, that 500 millions deal could only allow the broadcasters to show milan, inter and juventus "home games" alone. the broadcasters basically lost the coverage of the league... and yet they already spent a fortune, only to show a few games per season.
it was a financial disaster. so skyitalia, rai and mediaset had a "private chat" with milan, inter and juve. basically they told them "listen, this situation is unacceptable. so either u agree with the rest of the league to creat a collective deal system or we're not going to give u a cent anymore, once this contract expires".
so eventually it were milan, inter and juventus who came to us, asking for a new rule and a collective deal system. and it were the broadcasting companies who did the dirty work for us and forced the big clubs to change their mind.
i just can't understand why del nido hasn't realised yet this is the only road that can lead them to a collective deal.
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Impressive posts, Zio. I didn't know that happpened in Italy. The only problem may be the political situation in Spain. Let me explain.
Madrid and Barcelona are both clubs that go beyond sport, and they are very deeply related to political issues. You see, it was the right wing government who practically gifted 800M€ to Florentino's Madrid some years ago to build skyscrappers in some terrains in a very shady (and illegal) way. There are big banks behind Barcelona and Madrid interests. Madrid and Barcelona, one way or another, have control of the media in a way no team in Italy does. Newspapers are owned by people near the club. And Florentino himself has shares of Marca and As through his companies, the same way Sport and Mundo Deportivo are owned by people of economical groups very close to Barcelona interests.
The two clubs have grown to a scale that they have too much power, and they have some of the key people of the media in their pockets. For instance, Mediapro, which has the rights of the TV, it's a company set in Barcelona by Jaume Roures, a former Barcelona representative, close to Cruyff 20 years ago.
And even in politics, Madrid has always had the right wing support, and the relationships between Madrid and PP are bloody tightened (look what happened when Aznar was in charge). There are a lot of businesses taking place at the Bernabeu and they are generating a lot of money that is making everyone happy. This political power makes it easy to "control" other teams, federations and the league. Barcelona does the same, but in Catalonia. The banks and the catalan political parties all support the team and have big interests. And the big media companies (most of them from Catalonia) are really interested in keeping the club big (with the crisis it seems to be of big importance to have a team capable of big headlines in the newspapers). It makes Barcelona very powerful, more than it never was, and that's the reason why the two big guns have found a common place: both are politically powerful.
The club who wants to fight those 2 giants is not fighting a football club. Is fighting the banks, the media corporations and the political parties. Can anyone fight against that?
I fear not. That practically ties the hands of many of the small clubs. And while Del Nido has been the only one to act bravely, as you say he's chosen a frontal attack, which won't go on. I too wish the small teams could do as Palermo and others in Italy and TV money was distributed fairly. But I don't think it works in Spain in the current situation.
Madrid and Barcelona are both clubs that go beyond sport, and they are very deeply related to political issues. You see, it was the right wing government who practically gifted 800M€ to Florentino's Madrid some years ago to build skyscrappers in some terrains in a very shady (and illegal) way. There are big banks behind Barcelona and Madrid interests. Madrid and Barcelona, one way or another, have control of the media in a way no team in Italy does. Newspapers are owned by people near the club. And Florentino himself has shares of Marca and As through his companies, the same way Sport and Mundo Deportivo are owned by people of economical groups very close to Barcelona interests.
The two clubs have grown to a scale that they have too much power, and they have some of the key people of the media in their pockets. For instance, Mediapro, which has the rights of the TV, it's a company set in Barcelona by Jaume Roures, a former Barcelona representative, close to Cruyff 20 years ago.
And even in politics, Madrid has always had the right wing support, and the relationships between Madrid and PP are bloody tightened (look what happened when Aznar was in charge). There are a lot of businesses taking place at the Bernabeu and they are generating a lot of money that is making everyone happy. This political power makes it easy to "control" other teams, federations and the league. Barcelona does the same, but in Catalonia. The banks and the catalan political parties all support the team and have big interests. And the big media companies (most of them from Catalonia) are really interested in keeping the club big (with the crisis it seems to be of big importance to have a team capable of big headlines in the newspapers). It makes Barcelona very powerful, more than it never was, and that's the reason why the two big guns have found a common place: both are politically powerful.
The club who wants to fight those 2 giants is not fighting a football club. Is fighting the banks, the media corporations and the political parties. Can anyone fight against that?
I fear not. That practically ties the hands of many of the small clubs. And while Del Nido has been the only one to act bravely, as you say he's chosen a frontal attack, which won't go on. I too wish the small teams could do as Palermo and others in Italy and TV money was distributed fairly. But I don't think it works in Spain in the current situation.
gerd
Retired Footballer
I didn't know that Ben...but i think my solution would be more simple.
Take Spain: all clubs refuse to play against Madrid and Barcelona as long as there is no better division of the money....then suddenly those matches are not interesting any more because there will be no matches. All clubs would loose 4 matches with 5-0 but the way things are going now, they actually might be better off...look what happened to Ossasuna...They lost 8-0, that must be a serious blow for players, manager and club... IMO it's better to make a point by not turning up and loosing 5-0.
Weak point of my plan: solidarity.
PS- edit: just read drekkard's post. Couldn't worldwide fans do something? I know most fans don't care how their club wins, but surely, there must thousands of sensible fans who care as much about football as a about their club..for every Runeedge (no offense meant, but fans like him only see their own club and aren't even objective about it) there must be a drekkard, a lo zio, a bobbybox or a Vannizzlefashizzal (fans of a club who care about football too).
Take Spain: all clubs refuse to play against Madrid and Barcelona as long as there is no better division of the money....then suddenly those matches are not interesting any more because there will be no matches. All clubs would loose 4 matches with 5-0 but the way things are going now, they actually might be better off...look what happened to Ossasuna...They lost 8-0, that must be a serious blow for players, manager and club... IMO it's better to make a point by not turning up and loosing 5-0.
Weak point of my plan: solidarity.
PS- edit: just read drekkard's post. Couldn't worldwide fans do something? I know most fans don't care how their club wins, but surely, there must thousands of sensible fans who care as much about football as a about their club..for every Runeedge (no offense meant, but fans like him only see their own club and aren't even objective about it) there must be a drekkard, a lo zio, a bobbybox or a Vannizzlefashizzal (fans of a club who care about football too).
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Ronaldinho_23
Premier League
Barcelona will win EPL, walking.
and calcio, will win, sit.
Real Madrid too.
no is money, is quality
and calcio, will win, sit.
Real Madrid too.
no is money, is quality
Aboutreika18
Too Black, Too Strong
- 5 September 2006
Nah, I'd have Barca out on their own "God Tier", with Real and Man Utd on a secondary tier and then the rest even lower.
Utd are certainly in the mix somewhere, at the very least on Real's level if not on a level higher than Real but lower than Barca.
gerd
Retired Footballer
Well then you have to consider Man City and Chelsea too Abou. Yesterday's match proved that the gap between Man Utd and Chelsea is minimal. I'm pretty sure that Chelsea have won confidence after their match against Man Utd yesterday.
Enzo
International
Gap between Torres and the net was huge tho
Lo Zio and Drekkard, thank you guys, nice read!
Enzo
International
Messi 7 games = 9 goals, 5 assists
Fabregas 6 games = 4 goals, 4 assists
Wonderful
Fabregas 6 games = 4 goals, 4 assists
Wonderful
Aboutreika18
Too Black, Too Strong
- 5 September 2006
Well if you're just basing it on one match, Levante must be in that top bracket after yesterday. I'm taking the last 2-3 seasons into account, so City, Chelsea and others would be on a level below Real and Utd.
YoungGun_UK
20 TIMES!
Agree with Abou, Real and us are great sides, and would normally be regarded as such but Barcelona are the best I will probably witness in my lifetime.
bebo
Looking for a Manager
Think cesc and his early stats might prove barca just leap frog into a unheard territory. Its like the team that once was when they were 15 years old together.
jonneymendoza
Legend
- 1 January 2004
- Arsenal
Could barcelona go a whole season unbeaten though in the english premiership?
PLF
Legend
- 2 August 2004
Arsenal did so why not Barca?!
And I don't think Barca will go undefeated anyway.
Like I said, the situation is hardly ideal and something needs to be done but a couple weird results and people are getting way too freaked out and exaggerating like mad! How many times over the years has Barca beat Osasuna 8-0 ? Ever before? And when was that? decades ago? How many times will it again? I'm willing to bet they won't beat them by more than 5 goals for the next 5 if not 10 years.
And I don't think Barca will go undefeated anyway.
Like I said, the situation is hardly ideal and something needs to be done but a couple weird results and people are getting way too freaked out and exaggerating like mad! How many times over the years has Barca beat Osasuna 8-0 ? Ever before? And when was that? decades ago? How many times will it again? I'm willing to bet they won't beat them by more than 5 goals for the next 5 if not 10 years.
jonneymendoza
Legend
- 1 January 2004
- Arsenal
Same reaction whne arsenal got humped 8:2. people praised united thinking they are as good as barcelona all of a sudden and arsenal a tema fighing for relegation. Fergie will never beat arsenal again by 8 goals in his whole entire life time. it wont happen. that was a one off.
Same with barcelona. wont beat them 8:0 for a long time IMO
Same with barcelona. wont beat them 8:0 for a long time IMO
PLF
Legend
- 2 August 2004
Exactly. It's a one-off. It's just both clubs started the season with thrashings so everyone's getting shit scared...
I wanna see how many times this is gonna happen until end of season...
And Barca will lose just as Madrid did this week and it won't be their only loss either. I mean Levante is probably the weakest team in the league and they had a chance and the other clubs certainly have one as well, if anything bigger chances...
I wanna see how many times this is gonna happen until end of season...
And Barca will lose just as Madrid did this week and it won't be their only loss either. I mean Levante is probably the weakest team in the league and they had a chance and the other clubs certainly have one as well, if anything bigger chances...
I'm a United fan and I don't think we're in the same league as Madrid. To be honest, the only squad that is close to Barca/Real is Man City. United look good now, but it won't last - it's still almost the same team as last year which was pretty mediocre for a champion.
Let's look at it another way. Player for player the best 4 squads in the world are Barca, Real, Man City and Chelsea. Does anyone else see a pattern in terms of operating under sensible business models?
Let's look at it another way. Player for player the best 4 squads in the world are Barca, Real, Man City and Chelsea. Does anyone else see a pattern in terms of operating under sensible business models?
bebo
Looking for a Manager
Haha jonney your repeating what plf just said lol
gerd
Retired Footballer
I still think man utd has more consistency than City.
PLF and jonney, i'm not so sure if this 8-0 is a one off, the Man Utd-Arsenal is, but this Barcelona team can do it again (after all they beat Real 5-0 too). I think a team that wants to play football will always be beaten by this Barcelona team...very negative teams can win against them.
But all in all the 8-0 defeat is not the problem. The problem with most leagues is the fact that only 2, 3 or 4 clubs can win it.
Spain: Barcelona and Real Madrid
England: Man United, Man City and Chelsea
Italy: Milan, Inter, Juve
Portugal: Porto, Benfica
Holland: Ajax, Twente, PSV
Belgium: Anderlecht, Standard, Brugge, Genk (Genk: now and then).
Only possible exceptions:
Germany: if Bayern has a bad year this is a very open league (but normally Bayern is outstanding)
France: but what will happen with the new PSG
Which clubs can win the CL?
Barcelona, Real Madrid, Man Utd and perhaps Milan or Inter.
The worrying thing is that clubs who have a splendid season like Udinese, immediately loose all their good players. Clubs like Udinese have to rebuild immediately after each (modest) success. Clubs like Genk win a title and have to rebuild completely. It takes them several years to rebuild and be competitive again...the fact that a club like Genk won 3 times the Jupiler league with totally different players (and the last time almost entirely homegrown) is a huge achievement. Same goes for clubs like Udinese, Palermo, Villareal, Dortmund, Lille, Porto, Twente and even giants like Ajax.
Look at Aston Villa and Everton who did so well and threatened to break in the top 4, in the end they did not make it and are weakened.
I'm sorry for this long post, but this evolution is bad for football.
PLF and jonney, i'm not so sure if this 8-0 is a one off, the Man Utd-Arsenal is, but this Barcelona team can do it again (after all they beat Real 5-0 too). I think a team that wants to play football will always be beaten by this Barcelona team...very negative teams can win against them.
But all in all the 8-0 defeat is not the problem. The problem with most leagues is the fact that only 2, 3 or 4 clubs can win it.
Spain: Barcelona and Real Madrid
England: Man United, Man City and Chelsea
Italy: Milan, Inter, Juve
Portugal: Porto, Benfica
Holland: Ajax, Twente, PSV
Belgium: Anderlecht, Standard, Brugge, Genk (Genk: now and then).
Only possible exceptions:
Germany: if Bayern has a bad year this is a very open league (but normally Bayern is outstanding)
France: but what will happen with the new PSG
Which clubs can win the CL?
Barcelona, Real Madrid, Man Utd and perhaps Milan or Inter.
The worrying thing is that clubs who have a splendid season like Udinese, immediately loose all their good players. Clubs like Udinese have to rebuild immediately after each (modest) success. Clubs like Genk win a title and have to rebuild completely. It takes them several years to rebuild and be competitive again...the fact that a club like Genk won 3 times the Jupiler league with totally different players (and the last time almost entirely homegrown) is a huge achievement. Same goes for clubs like Udinese, Palermo, Villareal, Dortmund, Lille, Porto, Twente and even giants like Ajax.
Look at Aston Villa and Everton who did so well and threatened to break in the top 4, in the end they did not make it and are weakened.
I'm sorry for this long post, but this evolution is bad for football.
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The_Special_One
I like Unicorns
Jonney can't forget the number 8, ups sorry bebo. 
Once again, Ben is pointing out some very interesting info regarding this topic. I hate you man, your points are sooo good that are hard to deny, you always set high parameters in every discussion! (You know I'm kidding mate, love you man!
) I didn't know that happened too in Italy but, as drekkard stated, I fear that it would be impossible to copy the model into the Spanish footie. There are many obscure (read: politics and money) interests behind football shamefully.
Yea, I reckon, what is going on in Spain is certainly owners fault. La Liga clubs overspend so they desperately need money and, as a result, they are forced to signed ruinous contracts. I remember you saying "nobody pointed a gun at Cerezo (atl. madrid) and Iglesias (zaragoza) when they accepted those terms", yes that is true, they were the ones who putted the guns at their own heads by spent what they hadn't! (Oh gosh, I was writing this and suddently the image of Alberto João Jardim, President of the Regional Government of Madeira, came across my head! Sh*t! Unfortunately I think you know what I'm talking about, it's up everywhere in the news).
Back on topic (well, not exactly in this topic
) The solution is to set a collective agreement between owners and Mediapro. I just can’t figure out any other solution besides that one. Again, as far as I admire what Italian clubs did, there’s no hope in follow that model you sorted out. That’s what I’ve been talking about: Solidarity. The only difference between us is that I’ve suggest small clubs to line up their youngster against the big guns, and believe me, this idea hurts me a lot. They can’t refuse to play more than 3 games per season, if so they are automatically excluded from professional leagues.
Exactly. People (including myself) call it Sunny SPL because this is a two horse race just like in Scotland. Nothing more than that. The quality? Man, I love La Liga games! I love to sit in front of my TV and spend 3-4 hours per day (if I could) to watch the likes of Atlético, Bilbao and Valencia.
Drekkard, the more I read, the sickest I got. Shamefully. We, true sports fans, only care about the sport. It is a shame when people from the clubs are involved with obscure schemes to earn money and power.
Anyway, I would love to read your post about the Pay-Per-View. I think a war is about to happen here in Portugal sooner than later. According some recent news, Benfica is negotiating a 40M TV deal with the Emir of Qatar sheik. Al Thani. They are planning to broadcast our home games in PPV system which is going to be much more expensive for the fans than the current system – one TV operator broadcasting all league games for 25€ per month.
Oh, almost forget, Portuguese small clubs receive 1M per year…
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tc811
Resident Evo-Web Retard
(Oh gosh, I was writing this and suddently the image of Alberto João Jardim, President of the Regional Government of Madeira, came across my head! Sh*t! Unfortunately I think you know what I'm talking about, it's up everywhere in the news).
Andre, if you don't mind me asking, what is this news you're referring to? I tried googling it for 10 seconds and I came up with nothing, so I give up...
The_Special_One
I like Unicorns
Andre, if you don't mind me asking, what is this news you're referring to? I tried googling it for 10 seconds and I came up with nothing, so I give up...
Surely my friend: Portugal’s Unreported Madeira Debt to Represent 0.3% of GDP
When I was writing about the overspending I remind this guy for hiding a mountain of debts his regional government made.
lo zio
International
- 24 October 2005
- Palermo
Gerd, any form of protest against real and barça wouldn't work (wheter it's fielding the youngsters or not playing against them at all). first of, because i seriously doubt all the presidents would be "strong" enough to hold such protest for long. and second, because barça and madrid are not the actual responsible of this situation. sure they take advantage of this (because by giving tablescraps to the rest of the league and saving their money, mediapro can then afford to give hundreds of millions to real and barça)... but they're not the ones who close the deals with the clubs..... mediapro is the company who closes those deals.
if u were a spanish club president and i were rosell or perez, i could easily shut your mouth by saying "why the hell are u protesting against us? if u think u're not getting enough money for the broadcasting rights, then go complain to mediapro!"
a frontal attack to barça and real just won't work. so we get back to my idea.
@ alexis and andre, u guys obviously know the situation in spain much better than me.... but however, although i'm aware barça and real have a very strong influence on the entire spanish establishment (media, politicians, banks and so on), what could they possibly do to stop del nido and his fellow presidents from refusing to sign their deals with mediapro?
let's imagine i am del nido; as powerful and influential as perez and rosell might be, it's my right to decide wheter to sell or not the broadcasting rights of sevilla.
economic freedom is guarranteed by the spanish constitution, and being the owner of those broadcasting rights, i can decide wheter to sell them or not, to whom i want to sell them and at wich terms..... and not even zapatero could possibly interfere with my right.
of course i realise that there might be some forms of "external and indirect pressure" on me... but eventually, the decision will still be entirely up to me. so if i decide that 20 millions euros are not enough, then i have all the right to say "u know what Roures, take those 20 millions and stick them up into your ass. if this is your only offer, then i'm not selling!" and there's absolutely nothing anyone can do to stop me from doing that.
now try to imagine what would happen if 7 clubs would do that. the coverage of the entire league would be completely fucked up for an entire season. and if mediapro can't offer to their buyers the entire coverage of la liga, then there's no way they're going to pay 150 millions to real and barça for their broadcasting rights... u see where i'm going with this?
and the best thing about this approach is that u're not actually fighting against real and barça (u're directly fighting mediapro), so u're relatively safe from any forms of pressure\financial retaliations\threats from real, barca and their whole establishment.
if u try to go against barça and real, then u're definitely going to lose (for all the reason u guys mentioned).... plus u're chosing the wrong "enemy" (because your real enemy is the company which handles the tv coverage, aka mediapro).....
but if u refuse to deal with mediapro, then u're not attacking real and barça.... u're just making the best interests for your own club.... and barça and real have no business interfering with that.
now my only question is: why del nido hasn't decided to go down this way? i know for a fact that del nido knows very well how serie a clubs handled this situation (i remember i heard him talking about it in an interview). the man is very clever, so there's no way he hasn't considered this strategy as a possibile option. he must have considered it.... and then for some reason he must have thought it was not a good idea..... but why?
u guys have any thoughts on that?
if u were a spanish club president and i were rosell or perez, i could easily shut your mouth by saying "why the hell are u protesting against us? if u think u're not getting enough money for the broadcasting rights, then go complain to mediapro!"
a frontal attack to barça and real just won't work. so we get back to my idea.
@ alexis and andre, u guys obviously know the situation in spain much better than me.... but however, although i'm aware barça and real have a very strong influence on the entire spanish establishment (media, politicians, banks and so on), what could they possibly do to stop del nido and his fellow presidents from refusing to sign their deals with mediapro?
let's imagine i am del nido; as powerful and influential as perez and rosell might be, it's my right to decide wheter to sell or not the broadcasting rights of sevilla.
economic freedom is guarranteed by the spanish constitution, and being the owner of those broadcasting rights, i can decide wheter to sell them or not, to whom i want to sell them and at wich terms..... and not even zapatero could possibly interfere with my right.
of course i realise that there might be some forms of "external and indirect pressure" on me... but eventually, the decision will still be entirely up to me. so if i decide that 20 millions euros are not enough, then i have all the right to say "u know what Roures, take those 20 millions and stick them up into your ass. if this is your only offer, then i'm not selling!" and there's absolutely nothing anyone can do to stop me from doing that.
now try to imagine what would happen if 7 clubs would do that. the coverage of the entire league would be completely fucked up for an entire season. and if mediapro can't offer to their buyers the entire coverage of la liga, then there's no way they're going to pay 150 millions to real and barça for their broadcasting rights... u see where i'm going with this?
and the best thing about this approach is that u're not actually fighting against real and barça (u're directly fighting mediapro), so u're relatively safe from any forms of pressure\financial retaliations\threats from real, barca and their whole establishment.
if u try to go against barça and real, then u're definitely going to lose (for all the reason u guys mentioned).... plus u're chosing the wrong "enemy" (because your real enemy is the company which handles the tv coverage, aka mediapro).....
but if u refuse to deal with mediapro, then u're not attacking real and barça.... u're just making the best interests for your own club.... and barça and real have no business interfering with that.
now my only question is: why del nido hasn't decided to go down this way? i know for a fact that del nido knows very well how serie a clubs handled this situation (i remember i heard him talking about it in an interview). the man is very clever, so there's no way he hasn't considered this strategy as a possibile option. he must have considered it.... and then for some reason he must have thought it was not a good idea..... but why?
u guys have any thoughts on that?
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I will pose a different question to your question, zio! 
Why the other presidents are ignoring what would obviously represent more money to their clubs? Why Valencia, Atletico, Villarreal and practically all the low-profile clubs keep the mouth closed?
Valencia and Atletico are being greedy, and as long as they earn more than the rest, they are ok. That almost guarantees them a place in CL every year if things are done right (Atletico always finds a way of screwing it up, though). But the rest of the low profile teams have no reasons to be quiet. Why do they?
I would dare to say that it's because Madrid and Barcelona (and specially Florentino) are very powerful. I know that was my last post. But let me stress on the fact. I would say that Florentino is one of the top 10 people with most power. This power translates into control of other presidents. Keeping Florentino happy can represent a great contract for your company. Most of the club presidents in Spain have interests in the building and construction industry (another long post could explain what does that mean in Spain). Florentino is chairman of ACS, the biggest company in Spain in that sector, and by far. We're speaking of someone who's as powerful as a bank president.
What would happen if you make him furious? Presidents could loose a lot of their PERSONAL money. So they prefer to sign and keep robbing and raping their own clubs for their personal profit (that should deserve another post. The management of club presidents of Spain and how they dillapidated them and stole all the money of their clubs in the last 10 years. That includes post-Gil Atletico, Del Nido himself, Lendoiro, etc...).
I don't loose the hope, though, and of all the possible options, the only one that could succeed is probably do a "Serie A" silent revolution like you say, but that would imply fighting against Mediapro as you point out, and then we get to the last question. Who are the MediaPro owners and investors? Some of them are close to Grupo Godo and "la Caixa", two very pro-barcelona companies (la Caixa is the banks that manages the debt of Barcelona, for example). Plus, as I said before, Jaume Roures is a long friend of Cruyff and his environment. And amongst the other investors of MediaPro you would find ACS (through puppet companies), the company of Florentino.
Now, who would the small clubs fight with if they attack MediaPro?
The only solution for it to go on is that all 18 clubs decide to be united, including Valencia and Atletico. That is almost impossible. To keep a clean image, Barcelona and Madrid will probably accept a small reduction of their income, but just to keep the illusion of being fair.
There's some interesting data to debate, too, related to audiences. 80% of people paying for single matches do it for Madrid or Barcelona matches, that's a hard fact. In free TV retransmissions, they have a 32% of share according the last data (though that data can vary depending on the matches being chosen and I don't know if it's relevant at all). The overall audience of stallite TV shows that Barcelona and Madrid represent practically 50% of the audience. But there's not a single statistic that I have found that takes into account restaurants, bars and so. And in Spain there's a large tradition of watching satellite TV on bars and restaurants with friends. So, I don't know if someone knows the exact numbers, really. What it seems, is that Barcelona and Madrid represent the largest chunk of audience by far, followed by Atletico, Valencia, Sevilla and Betis. The rest of teams have very very small audiences. A Villarreal-Getafe can have a 2%-3% of share, for example.
I don't think any of the other big leagues have the audience so polarized as in Spain. Maybe that's part of the problem.
Barcelona and Madrid are demanding 35% of the overall TV deal, which could seem fair at first sight. But even if it's fair with the audiences data at hands, it destroys competition. The La Liga should be strong enough to be over Barcelona and Madrid interests, as the Premier does, and should be La Liga who dealed with TVs and distribute more fairly the money, because Mediapro won't want to pay +10M€ to a club like Getafe or Levante, who hardly get any audience during the season.
Why the other presidents are ignoring what would obviously represent more money to their clubs? Why Valencia, Atletico, Villarreal and practically all the low-profile clubs keep the mouth closed?
Valencia and Atletico are being greedy, and as long as they earn more than the rest, they are ok. That almost guarantees them a place in CL every year if things are done right (Atletico always finds a way of screwing it up, though). But the rest of the low profile teams have no reasons to be quiet. Why do they?
I would dare to say that it's because Madrid and Barcelona (and specially Florentino) are very powerful. I know that was my last post. But let me stress on the fact. I would say that Florentino is one of the top 10 people with most power. This power translates into control of other presidents. Keeping Florentino happy can represent a great contract for your company. Most of the club presidents in Spain have interests in the building and construction industry (another long post could explain what does that mean in Spain). Florentino is chairman of ACS, the biggest company in Spain in that sector, and by far. We're speaking of someone who's as powerful as a bank president.
What would happen if you make him furious? Presidents could loose a lot of their PERSONAL money. So they prefer to sign and keep robbing and raping their own clubs for their personal profit (that should deserve another post. The management of club presidents of Spain and how they dillapidated them and stole all the money of their clubs in the last 10 years. That includes post-Gil Atletico, Del Nido himself, Lendoiro, etc...).
I don't loose the hope, though, and of all the possible options, the only one that could succeed is probably do a "Serie A" silent revolution like you say, but that would imply fighting against Mediapro as you point out, and then we get to the last question. Who are the MediaPro owners and investors? Some of them are close to Grupo Godo and "la Caixa", two very pro-barcelona companies (la Caixa is the banks that manages the debt of Barcelona, for example). Plus, as I said before, Jaume Roures is a long friend of Cruyff and his environment. And amongst the other investors of MediaPro you would find ACS (through puppet companies), the company of Florentino.
Now, who would the small clubs fight with if they attack MediaPro?
The only solution for it to go on is that all 18 clubs decide to be united, including Valencia and Atletico. That is almost impossible. To keep a clean image, Barcelona and Madrid will probably accept a small reduction of their income, but just to keep the illusion of being fair.
There's some interesting data to debate, too, related to audiences. 80% of people paying for single matches do it for Madrid or Barcelona matches, that's a hard fact. In free TV retransmissions, they have a 32% of share according the last data (though that data can vary depending on the matches being chosen and I don't know if it's relevant at all). The overall audience of stallite TV shows that Barcelona and Madrid represent practically 50% of the audience. But there's not a single statistic that I have found that takes into account restaurants, bars and so. And in Spain there's a large tradition of watching satellite TV on bars and restaurants with friends. So, I don't know if someone knows the exact numbers, really. What it seems, is that Barcelona and Madrid represent the largest chunk of audience by far, followed by Atletico, Valencia, Sevilla and Betis. The rest of teams have very very small audiences. A Villarreal-Getafe can have a 2%-3% of share, for example.
I don't think any of the other big leagues have the audience so polarized as in Spain. Maybe that's part of the problem.
Barcelona and Madrid are demanding 35% of the overall TV deal, which could seem fair at first sight. But even if it's fair with the audiences data at hands, it destroys competition. The La Liga should be strong enough to be over Barcelona and Madrid interests, as the Premier does, and should be La Liga who dealed with TVs and distribute more fairly the money, because Mediapro won't want to pay +10M€ to a club like Getafe or Levante, who hardly get any audience during the season.
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