eFootball PES 2021 Discussion Thread (CONSOLES)

netizen said:
the perks(?) of living in third world country
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By below definition, i have no idea if that is closely related since most games and consoles, pc build has more or less same price as in the US. Sometimes even more expensive.
Anyway.. off topic.
What are 1st 2nd and 3rd world countries?
1—The bloc of democratic-industrial countries within the American influence sphere, the “First World”. 2—The Eastern bloc of the communist-socialist states, the “Second World”. 3—The remaining three-quarters of the world's population, states not aligned with either bloc were regarded as the “Third World.”
 
Madmac79 said:
Where is the cpu properly dribbling? I've watched a decent chunk of videos yesterday and mostly saw just the generic immediate movements to give away the ball half a second later. Anyone feel free to point me towards videos that show something significantly different than the past season.
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Could be the teams i played against as I only played exhibition matches against top teams. I also reset the tactics of the teams I was going against to get a more compact and realistic game. Which is something I do for the entire league I play in before I start a ML.

As I mentioned on twitter, I can only share my experience playing for about 3hrs. I played on superstar I also play on zoomed in camera angle pitch side 0-2-8 and use the radar for long passes like old school ps2 winning eleven days.Ups the challenge for me.

It's pes 2020 with little subtle changes that make the game feel better for me. If you didn't like pes 2020 then you aren't going to like 2021 its really that simple. Everyone also has preferences to what matters to them. Some its all about online, other its modes, others its tech and animations, others its referees if they are shit, people don't want to play the game etc.

2020 was hit or miss for me. Certain patches made the gave feel better other patches ruined my experience totally. For example, there was a patch that made dribbling lethargic and i like to dribble so i stopped playing my ML for a few months and came back after i heard one of the latest patches made dribbling more responsive again. Ultimately, we all have things we like and don't like. What kept me coming back to pes 2020 was play styles, player id, player traits, stats, building a young team. I love my ML team in 2020. I play on top player because i find superstar frustrating. The A.I. was blah but it was competent enough where i could get enjoyment focusing on my own team and players. I've learned to accept to play these games for what they are so i can focus on getting my footy fix instead of being miserable for what these games are not. I'm exhausted from being miserable about footy games lol

Now that you know where i was coming from, yes, 2021 still has most of the legacy issues that have hindered this series for a decade plus (pitch too fuckin big, too much space, players retreating after losing possession like jack rabbits etc.). Most of these legacy issues fans can't ignore and its make or break for them to get the game. Totally get that. If thats the case then 2021 is NOT FOR YOU. There isn't enough change to warrant a purchase for you.

If you got some semblance of enjoyment offline/ML in 2020 then 2021, IMO, is a nice step up. Dribbling feels really good. right stick works its not as clunky. the R2 traps are more fluid. When players collide that stop-start action has decreased significantly. I didn't play on top player only superstar so can only speak for that and before i couldn't really dribble on superstar but now you can which makes the game more playable IMO on the level. I found the CPU A.I. attacked in more different ways. I saw less patterns but of course its pes, patterns are still there, CPU A.I. feels less cheaty on superstar but there are still times where you feel like you can't stop a build up but its decreased a lot for me from before.

As for the A.I. dribbling. I'll use the match against bayern munich where I lost 3-1 as an example. Davies dribbled by my wingback on more than 1 occasion and whipped in a cross, a bunch of times midfielders beat my mids 1v1 in center of pitch and ripped shots or tried to spring lewangolski. Coman and gnabry successfully beat me in 1v1 situations cutting inside. Sure I'm prob crap at the game these days but before I would just hold down X, let my defender zone in on the cpu player like a missile and he'd take the ball away no problem. It was as easy for me. It's not pes 2013 or ps2 pes dribbling. But it felt more organic from the A.I. then the constant 1-2 touch passing pes A.I. has been known for since prob pes 2015-2016.

I can only go by my experience, i didn't take videos out of respect since i got code early but i will try to today when i get a chance to play. I know I am not the only one noticing some of these changes. End of the day, if you got any kind of enjoyment offline/ML our of 2020 then 2021 is a decent step up. Will it hold me for a year? prob not but what footy games do these days anyway. I prob played 2020 off and on more than any footy game recently and i played the hell out of fifa 18 offline with matt's sliders. If you didn't care for 2020, and i can only speak for offline, then there isn't enough here for you to change your mind.
 
I have bought the game 2 hours ago so I could quickly install it before patch 1.0.2 comes out and ruin everything like every day 1 patch... after 2-3 games I can say that the right analog stick might be a little bit more responsive, but the left analog stick is defiantly more responsive. I've actually just dribble past defenders using only a change of direction with the left analog stick (Superstar difficulty).

The other advantage is the with version 1.0.1 kits importing is not locked! So I'm going to disconnect my PS4 from the network until I will know that the next version is safe :THINK:
 
Shpitz said:
I have bought the game 2 hours ago so I could quickly install it before patch 1.0.2 comes out and ruin everything like every day 1 patch... after 2-3 games I can say that the right analog stick might be a little bit more responsive, but the left analog stick is defiantly more responsive. I've actually just dribble past defenders using only a change of direction with the left analog stick (Superstar difficulty).

The other advantage is the with version 1.0.1 kits importing is not locked! So I'm going to disconnect my PS4 from the network until I will know that the next version is safe :THINK:
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Funny.. These days, we buy a game that we are afraid that its developer may update the game to break it.. haha only between us and konami.
 
Shpitz said:
I have bought the game 2 hours ago so I could quickly install it before patch 1.0.2 comes out and ruin everything like every day 1 patch... after 2-3 games I can say that the right analog stick might be a little bit more responsive, but the left analog stick is defiantly more responsive. I've actually just dribble past defenders using only a change of direction with the left analog stick (Superstar difficulty).

The other advantage is the with version 1.0.1 kits importing is not locked! So I'm going to disconnect my PS4 from the network until I will know that the next version is safe :THINK:
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Yea being able to dribble against the A.I. on superstar is something that has really helped to get more enjoyment out of that level. before it was so frustrating
 
B-Man said:
Could be the teams i played against as I only played exhibition matches against top teams. I also reset the tactics of the teams I was going against to get a more compact and realistic game. Which is something I do for the entire league I play in before I start a ML.

As I mentioned on twitter, I can only share my experience playing for about 3hrs. I played on superstar I also play on zoomed in camera angle pitch side 0-2-8 and use the radar for long passes like old school ps2 winning eleven days.Ups the challenge for me.

It's pes 2020 with little subtle changes that make the game feel better for me. If you didn't like pes 2020 then you aren't going to like 2021 its really that simple. Everyone also has preferences to what matters to them. Some its all about online, other its modes, others its tech and animations, others its referees if they are shit, people don't want to play the game etc.

2020 was hit or miss for me. Certain patches made the gave feel better other patches ruined my experience totally. For example, there was a patch that made dribbling lethargic and i like to dribble so i stopped playing my ML for a few months and came back after i heard one of the latest patches made dribbling more responsive again. Ultimately, we all have things we like and don't like. What kept me coming back to pes 2020 was play styles, player id, player traits, stats, building a young team. I love my ML team in 2020. I play on top player because i find superstar frustrating. The A.I. was blah but it was competent enough where i could get enjoyment focusing on my own team and players. I've learned to accept to play these games for what they are so i can focus on getting my footy fix instead of being miserable for what these games are not. I'm exhausted from being miserable about footy games lol

Now that you know where i was coming from, yes, 2021 still has most of the legacy issues that have hindered this series for a decade plus (pitch too fuckin big, too much space, players retreating after losing possession like jack rabbits etc.). Most of these legacy issues fans can't ignore and its make or break for them to get the game. Totally get that. If thats the case then 2021 is NOT FOR YOU. There isn't enough change to warrant a purchase for you.

If you got some semblance of enjoyment offline/ML in 2020 then 2021, IMO, is a nice step up. Dribbling feels really good. right stick works its not as clunky. the R2 traps are more fluid. When players collide that stop-start action has decreased significantly. I didn't play on top player only superstar so can only speak for that and before i couldn't really dribble on superstar but now you can which makes the game more playable IMO on the level. I found the CPU A.I. attacked in more different ways. I saw less patterns but of course its pes, patterns are still there, CPU A.I. feels less cheaty on superstar but there are still times where you feel like you can't stop a build up but its decreased a lot for me from before.

As for the A.I. dribbling. I'll use the match against bayern munich where I lost 3-1 as an example. Davies dribbled by my wingback on more than 1 occasion and whipped in a cross, a bunch of times midfielders beat my mids 1v1 in center of pitch and ripped shots or tried to spring lewangolski. Coman and gnabry successfully beat me in 1v1 situations cutting inside. Sure I'm prob crap at the game these days but before I would just hold down X, let my defender zone in on the cpu player like a missile and he'd take the ball away no problem. It was as easy for me. It's not pes 2013 or ps2 pes dribbling. But it felt more organic from the A.I. then the constant 1-2 touch passing pes A.I. has been known for since prob pes 2015-2016.

I can only go by my experience, i didn't take videos out of respect since i got code early but i will try to today when i get a chance to play. I know I am not the only one noticing some of these changes. End of the day, if you got any kind of enjoyment offline/ML our of 2020 then 2021 is a decent step up. Will it hold me for a year? prob not but what footy games do these days anyway. I prob played 2020 off and on more than any footy game recently and i played the hell out of fifa 18 offline with matt's sliders. If you didn't care for 2020, and i can only speak for offline, then there isn't enough here for you to change your mind.
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Wow, thank you for the honest, long and detailed answer.

I get what you mean with dribbling. Sounds a bit like it was in the demo and waay more rarely in the first few patches, before they completely cutted CPU doing this stuff away. Well I guess it would be very nice if you or somebody else could post clips of that when the game will be out, not cause I don't believe it but just to appreciate it. This amount of dribbling while not ideal would still be somewhat acceptable to me, but as of now I'm too afraid they'd patch it away anyway, and there indeed are a lot of other things I don't like about the game, so maybe before considering the unthinkable I'll see how it will play out in the next weeks/months.

Another thing I despised in 2020 was the keeper. Is it still the same robotic one?
 
Thespeedster84 said:
Funny.. These days, we buy a game that we are afraid that its developer may update the game to break it.. haha only between us and konami.
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Its not only Konami. Fifa is also getting destroyed with patches.

I personally dont think that upcoming patch will break the game. Last year was a different story. Last year we had demo with a lot of physicality and fouls.
There was a lot of people shouting that there's too many fouls and every touch is a foul. People who didnt bother to actually learn how to defend and just wanted to hang themselves on X button to win the ball.
Thats how it started and thats what broke the game. Every next patch was just bringing more issues.

This year there was no demo. They have ni reason whatsoever to tweak anything.
Also - with a bit of luck - there wont be any gameplay changes throughout the year either. They might just focus on '22.

Now - is pes21 a game for you its a another question.
Like B-Man said - everyone is different and people are more sensitive to different elements of the game.
But I think there is a chance this year that whatever gameplay you have there now - will be there for the year.
 
B-Man said:
Could be the teams i played against as I only played exhibition matches against top teams. I also reset the tactics of the teams I was going against to get a more compact and realistic game. Which is something I do for the entire league I play in before I start a ML.

As I mentioned on twitter, I can only share my experience playing for about 3hrs. I played on superstar I also play on zoomed in camera angle pitch side 0-2-8 and use the radar for long passes like old school ps2 winning eleven days.Ups the challenge for me.

It's pes 2020 with little subtle changes that make the game feel better for me. If you didn't like pes 2020 then you aren't going to like 2021 its really that simple. Everyone also has preferences to what matters to them. Some its all about online, other its modes, others its tech and animations, others its referees if they are shit, people don't want to play the game etc.

2020 was hit or miss for me. Certain patches made the gave feel better other patches ruined my experience totally. For example, there was a patch that made dribbling lethargic and i like to dribble so i stopped playing my ML for a few months and came back after i heard one of the latest patches made dribbling more responsive again. Ultimately, we all have things we like and don't like. What kept me coming back to pes 2020 was play styles, player id, player traits, stats, building a young team. I love my ML team in 2020. I play on top player because i find superstar frustrating. The A.I. was blah but it was competent enough where i could get enjoyment focusing on my own team and players. I've learned to accept to play these games for what they are so i can focus on getting my footy fix instead of being miserable for what these games are not. I'm exhausted from being miserable about footy games lol

Now that you know where i was coming from, yes, 2021 still has most of the legacy issues that have hindered this series for a decade plus (pitch too fuckin big, too much space, players retreating after losing possession like jack rabbits etc.). Most of these legacy issues fans can't ignore and its make or break for them to get the game. Totally get that. If thats the case then 2021 is NOT FOR YOU. There isn't enough change to warrant a purchase for you.

If you got some semblance of enjoyment offline/ML in 2020 then 2021, IMO, is a nice step up. Dribbling feels really good. right stick works its not as clunky. the R2 traps are more fluid. When players collide that stop-start action has decreased significantly. I didn't play on top player only superstar so can only speak for that and before i couldn't really dribble on superstar but now you can which makes the game more playable IMO on the level. I found the CPU A.I. attacked in more different ways. I saw less patterns but of course its pes, patterns are still there, CPU A.I. feels less cheaty on superstar but there are still times where you feel like you can't stop a build up but its decreased a lot for me from before.

As for the A.I. dribbling. I'll use the match against bayern munich where I lost 3-1 as an example. Davies dribbled by my wingback on more than 1 occasion and whipped in a cross, a bunch of times midfielders beat my mids 1v1 in center of pitch and ripped shots or tried to spring lewangolski. Coman and gnabry successfully beat me in 1v1 situations cutting inside. Sure I'm prob crap at the game these days but before I would just hold down X, let my defender zone in on the cpu player like a missile and he'd take the ball away no problem. It was as easy for me. It's not pes 2013 or ps2 pes dribbling. But it felt more organic from the A.I. then the constant 1-2 touch passing pes A.I. has been known for since prob pes 2015-2016.

I can only go by my experience, i didn't take videos out of respect since i got code early but i will try to today when i get a chance to play. I know I am not the only one noticing some of these changes. End of the day, if you got any kind of enjoyment offline/ML our of 2020 then 2021 is a decent step up. Will it hold me for a year? prob not but what footy games do these days anyway. I prob played 2020 off and on more than any footy game recently and i played the hell out of fifa 18 offline with matt's sliders. If you didn't care for 2020, and i can only speak for offline, then there isn't enough here for you to change your mind.
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This really helpful. Its not perfect or fixed then and is still too spaced out...

Thanks for such a balanced appraisal.
 
i didn't get many shots
Madmac79 said:
Wow, thank you for the honest, long and detailed answer.

I get what you mean with dribbling. Sounds a bit like it was in the demo and waay more rarely in the first few patches, before they completely cutted CPU doing this stuff away. Well I guess it would be very nice if you or somebody else could post clips of that when the game will be out, not cause I don't believe it but just to appreciate it. This amount of dribbling while not ideal would still be somewhat acceptable to me, but as of now I'm too afraid they'd patch it away anyway, and there indeed are a lot of other things I don't like about the game, so maybe before considering the unthinkable I'll see how it will play out in the next weeks/months.

Another thing I despised in 2020 was the keeper. Is it still the same robotic one?
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Have not really noticed anything about the keepers. Honestly I don't know if thats a good thing or a bad thing. I haven't seen any really cheap goals or anything really odd from the keepers but at the same time i didn't like their animations in 2020 but learned to live with them.
 
FShas said:
This really helpful. Its not perfect or fixed then and is still too spaced out...

Thanks for such a balanced appraisal.
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That's why I play on a closer camera angle. I feel like it gives the illusion of a more compact pitch and when you play on a wider cam angle, you can see everything, and with a pitch thats too big you are bound to find someone open to pass too. Thats a legacy issue hopefully is resolved for 2022. I enjoy the close up action and seeing little animations that you don't see in a wider cam angle and i have nostalgia from using the radar like the ps2 days to see runs and spray long balls. just a preference. But if you can't stand the oversized pitch i strongly recommend a closer cam angle if you are will to use the radar
 
B-Man said:
That's why I play on a closer camera angle. I feel like it gives the illusion of a more compact pitch and when you play on a wider cam angle, you can see everything, and with a pitch thats too big you are bound to find someone open to pass too. Thats a legacy issue hopefully is resolved for 2022. I enjoy the close up action and seeing little animations that you don't see in a wider cam angle and i have nostalgia from using the radar like the ps2 days to see runs and spray long balls. just a preference. But if you can't stand the oversized pitch i strongly recommend a closer cam angle if you are will to use the radar
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I' don't recall seeing anyone mention they thought the pitch was oversized but I've thought that too for a while. One thing I tried when I first got 2020 was edit a couple of teams so all the players were much taller and fatter. It actually made the game more enjoyable, particularly in midfield, as the bulkier players meant the ball was intercepted a lot more and made for some really good midfield scraps and battles.

Thanks for you balanced comments above about 2021.
 
StrangelyEnough said:
Your will buy this..I guarantee it!..Because despite being burned,your a football fan and like me your craving a game that actually scratches that itch..We haven’t had anything like this for two generations..😀
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Erm
Ok now you’ve done it. You’re either a comedian or an employee.

we had something like this last year mate.
StrangelyEnough said:

Defending..Notice how my defender doesn’t freeze..I’m also able to perfectly time the tackle.There’s no player freezing/locking.Like 20.

long ball that I latch onto..Refs gives a instant yellow!!
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Yh now show us pes 21...
 
If the game has improved out the box for 21 I would be willing to put money on the fact that they’ve probably saved money by selling the 2020 that came on the disc last year. And they tend to update / ruin it a week or 4 after release.
I’d bet anything from a diddle eyed joe to a damded if I know that you’re playing 2020 disc ver 1.00 From last year.

you know the version everyone said was epic until the first of many disgusting patches for the myclub ch*ldren.
 
Emroth said:
Last year we had demo with a lot of physicality and fouls.
There was a lot of people shouting that there's too many fouls and every touch is a foul. People who didnt bother to actually learn how to defend and just wanted to hang themselves on X button to win the ball.
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Foul detection was a mess in the demo, and a mess in the full game. Just different kinds of messes. And I say that as someone who rarely, if ever, uses the X press.
 
I pre ordered it aswell because it is like 15$ on TR Xbox store. Pes 2020 demo dribbling was better than the full game. Hope 21 will play like 20 demo.
 
The real problem is even if it is better than 2020 and more close to the demo like some people are saying, including TheTrueBrits, he should be solid source of truth (with all due respect to other people), then there is a HUGE risk it will get destroyed by data packs again.

On the contrary, if you are playing on PC you already have aweseome gameplay mods, and other modding tools, including awesome patches like evo-web etc It will take months to get them on PES2021, even though it's the same engine, file system etc, it always takes time, if there will be people willing to do/repeat it. All in all, on PC there's no single reason to rush into it, however on consoles I get that without those mods and (especially) gameplay patches it might be worth even if it gets ruined in next months :P
 
B-Man said:
Let me know if you guys have any questions but I am sure those getting the game will be playing in a like a day so you can formulate your own opinions then :)
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Thanks for the impressions. Seems to me like its a game to get not now but more around Nov-Dec in when its cheap.
Is heading still nerfed?
 
I totally agree with B man, my game turned up Saturday morning....top work Shop-to.

its just a better game now, you feel in control of your players,AI take you on,fouls are better, keepers better and I have seen a lot of ai build up that I haven’t seen before.

its not perfect but it’s given me the buzz again of one more game.

im 43 years old and played every football game available old and new and this version feels solid...so far

be interesting to see what @Matt10 thinks, with a few tweaks tactics wise we could have a great game on our hands...as long as konami don’t patch it
 
nadge said:
I totally agree with B man, my game turned up Saturday morning....top work Shop-to.

its just a better game now, you feel in control of your players,AI take you on,fouls are better, keepers better and I have seen a lot of ai build up that I haven’t seen before.

its not perfect but it’s given me the buzz again of one more game.

im 43 years old and played every football game available old and new and this version feels solid...so far

be interesting to see what @Matt10 thinks, with a few tweaks tactics wise we could have a great game on our hands...as long as konami don’t patch it
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Have you tried in Master League with the same feeling?

I'm not buying a game where the main mode is frustrating.

But.. As I haven't 2020 anymore it begin to build up for a buy.. Need more reactions. Thanks for yours.
 
Filippo-Inzaghi said:
Have you tried in Master League with the same feeling?

I'm not buying a game where the main mode is frustrating.

But.. As I haven't 2020 anymore it begin to build up for a buy.. Need more reactions. Thanks for yours.
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played league mode only on professional PS4 all manual, with do a ml later to compare
 
Anyone playing pa1 who can report with same optimism.

Will probably never be a manual player. I just play the game the same way without longer passes when I'm on manual.

Important for me that the game still feels good on pa1.
 

According to Renan Galvani this impressions of this 3-time world champion saying about the gameplay.

Pros:
Collisions are better;
Passes are different, still heavily assisted but less random;
Through ball with "triangle" less efficient and more easier to be intecepted. He believes it won't that direct transition from the defense to the attack;
Dribbling is easier to do also in short spaces;
Players are light and more responsive;
Improvements on defence, no more passes between the defenders;
Shots with few improvements and less goals at the first post.

Cons:

Refs still awarding wrong fouls;
Strong script;
Teams playing better than its stats shown;
Pens still the same.
 
LucasBR said:

According to Renan Galvani this impressions of this 3-time world champion saying about the gameplay.

Strong script;
Teams playing better than its stats shown;
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Interesting - if he's a PES world champion and is complaining about scripting and stats not being adhered to, I wonder if Konami, who are now marketing their game as an eSports franchise, will be trying to design PES2022 in a way that finally addresses these longstanding issues, now that their preferred audience are complaining about it.
 
LucasBR said:

According to Renan Galvani this impressions of this 3-time world champion saying about the gameplay.

Pros:
Collisions are better;
Passes are different, still heavily assisted but less random;
Through ball with "triangle" less efficient and more easier to be intecepted. He believes it won't that direct transition from the defense to the attack;
Dribbling is easier to do also in short spaces;
Players are light and more responsive;
Improvements on defence, no more passes between the defenders;
Shots with few improvements and less goals at the first post.

Cons:

Refs still awarding wrong fouls;
Strong script;
Teams playing better than its stats shown;
Pens still the same.
Click to expand...

A lot he says I agree with after playing another 3 hrs today. This is why I tend to stay on top player because the scripting is not really there. Exhibition top player is pretty easy especially with top teams. But top player in ML with players that are not all high 80s and 90s is a lot of fun IMO. Superstar on exhibition today was fun, but i just know come ML the script is going to get bad I can just tell plus its hallmark konami.

I am still trying to figure out A.I. dribbling if it's just coded into certain players or teams. Yesterday played against top teams and saw more dribbles. Today played lesser teams and saw a lot less dribbling and more 1 touch passes. I really hope I just didn't have a great session yesterday where the A.I. clicked and you get those occasional gem of matches vs the A.I. and now it's back to 1-2 touch crap. I really wish i recorded videos yesterday of A.I. taking me 1v1 cutting in from wings and ripping shots or Goretzka doing a double touch around my defender 25 yards out then ripping a shot.

ugh so frustrating the game can play one way one day and different the next. Overall game is prob closer to pes 2020 demo IMO atleast on exhibition. I am waiting to start a ML until i import an OF.

Also, when i was playing against the likes of PSG, Bayern, City etc. yesterday, i changed their tactics. I condensed their lines to try and make less space, i also turned on geghen press so they were more aggressive. The matches definitely felt a lot tighter. Today, I didn't mess with opposing teams tactics and instantly i felt more space. One of the things i always do before i start a ML is fix the tactics for all the teams in the league as well as top teams in europe in case i see them in european competition. Atleast in 2020 on top player i had really good matches. We'll find out about 2021 soon enough.

Everything else I said before i stand by. i think 2021 is a better version of 2020. I am on the fence about the A.I. dribbling now as to what causes the A.I. to do take ons and other times just be 1-2 touch pass fests
 
B-Man said:
I am still trying to figure out A.I. dribbling if it's just coded into certain players or teams. Yesterday played against top teams and saw more dribbles. Today played lesser teams and saw a lot less dribbling and more 1 touch passes. I really hope I just didn't have a great session yesterday where the A.I. clicked and you get those occasional gem of matches vs the A.I. and now it's back to 1-2 touch crap. I really wish i recorded videos yesterday of A.I. taking me 1v1 cutting in from wings and ripping shots or Goretzka doing a double touch around my defender 25 yards out then ripping a shot.
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It could be depend on which team and players you play against. If you find a team dribbling against you, try playing against them again and see if they repeat.

It could be down to the players skills and COM playing style for each player. I did a lot of editing of stats and skills in 2020, assigning lots of dribbling skills and styles to players and I definitely get the AI dribbling more. Giving lots of players in a team the various long shots skills also resulted in them taking more long shots, particularly on Superstar.

Not sure, but they may also do these things more depending upon your own tactics, so if you sit back and give them space, they may be more likely to dribble into it or take a speculative shot. It's difficult to know exactly what's going on under the hood.
 
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