eFootball (All Platforms)

I don't know how this online gaming is working to sports gaming if the fun of playing an sport game is to take on the star players of the real life. I mean, if I play an NBA game, I want too feel like you facing Lebron, Curry, Durant and the game has to have a good AI that replicates that. If I'm playing F1, I want too feel I'm racing against Hamilton etc etc.

How can this experience could be replicate on online gaming?

This online gaming it's much more to FPS and fighting games, its not just a matter of taste.
 
When the product lead dev of a football game says 1 vs 1 is the essence of football, you know you’re not going to get a game that replicates the real thing in most ways.

The essence of football is literally the complete opposite of 1 vs 1… it’s a TEAM game. Even when 1 vs 1 scenarios arise in real football, it’s due to the movement of team mates and the success of the attacking player in possession is largely down to the movement of team mates. Very rarely (even more rarely in today’s game because it’s so pass, move & posession focused) do you get an isolated 1 vs 1 situation.

Even changing the camera so you literally can’t see your AI team mates is a complete idiotic idea but I really expect nothing less from Konami.

Edit: Having said that, one of my big problems with PES 2020/21 is that it’s ridiculous hard to beat defenders 1vs1 making the dribbling so unsatisfying that I don’t even attempt it but the teammate AI being neglected is embarrassing. 1 step forward, 2 steps back as usual.
 
Ximelez said:
When the product lead dev of a football game says 1 vs 1 is the essence of football, you know you’re not going to get a game that replicates the real thing in most ways.

The essence of football is literally the complete opposite of 1 vs 1… it’s a TEAM game. Even when 1 vs 1 scenarios arise in real football, it’s due to the movement of team mates and the success of the attacking player in possession is largely down to the movement of team mates. Very rarely (even more rarely in today’s game because it’s so pass, move & posession focused) do you get an isolated 1 vs 1 situation.

Even changing the camera so you literally can’t see your AI team mates is a complete idiotic idea but I really expect nothing less from Konami.

Edit: Having said that, one of my big problems with PES 2020/21 is that it’s ridiculous hard to beat defenders 1vs1 making the dribbling so unsatisfying that I don’t even attempt it but the teammate AI being neglected is embarrassing. 1 step forward, 2 steps back as usual.
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Agree with all of this except 1-on-1s I find pretty well-balanced in the current PES! Normally have a decent chance of beating with a shoulder drop, burst of pace. Mostly just left stick stuff.
 
janguv said:
Agree with all of this except 1-on-1s I find pretty well-balanced in the current PES! Normally have a decent chance of beating with a shoulder drop, burst of pace. Mostly just left stick stuff.
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Online or offline?

I find offline the AI just reads what you do and literally just runs into you or across your path taking the ball off of you with ease because there’s not real physicality in the game and players in possession don’t protect the ball properly (i.e stun animation)
 
Charles words from the Footy UTD podcast on the trailer and the trailer's press release land even more havier than ever....especially after that they showed what they got, nobody liked it and now they promise all the stars from the sky for us. To me its very suspicious.
 
Ximelez said:
Online or offline?

I find offline the AI just reads what you do and literally just runs into you or across your path taking the ball off of you with ease because there’s not real physicality in the game and players in possession don’t protect the ball properly (i.e stun animation)
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Ah, mostly online vs people I know, so I get to anticipate them quite well, I guess. Have definitely done it vs the AI when playing around, but not like I play consistently enough to work out how easy/often.
 
Danny Henry said:
I don't know how this online gaming is working to sports gaming if the fun of playing an sport game is to take on the star players of the real life. I mean, if I play an NBA game, I want too feel like you facing Lebron, Curry, Durant and the game has to have a good AI that replicates that. If I'm playing F1, I want too feel I'm racing against Hamilton etc etc.

How can this experience could be replicate on online gaming?

This online gaming it's much more to FPS and fighting games, its not just a matter of taste.
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I'm sure that's the way it used to be but things changed. Team building modes are popular because people love the idea of building their teams with said superstars as well as legends and facing off against other people's collection of stars. It sounds great in theory, but I've never liked it's application in any sports game I've played (mostly because of the people I've played against).

And simultaneously came the rise of competitive. It's not strange that, at some point, people want to test their skills against others. And that is something all sorts of games have in common.

Maybe the fun of a sports game used to be taking the best players irl, but it's evolved. Lots of people want something different than just than in these games.
 
This new eFootball game will be incredibly bad and will so obviously completely suck in everyway from top to bottom. Haven't bought a FIFA in many years. I'll be getting it this year.

Anyone thinking otherwise... are you an ostrich? Because you have your head buried in the sand
 
Sovereign Hope said:
I cant believe that the camera in NFG will replace the default stadium camera on previous pes. I legit thought that camera is for the mobile version only
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These people are beyond parody. It's literally as if your middle-aged mum was programming a football game, having never witnessed a modern football broadcast, and put in all these idiotic things that she thought would be really useful and 'nice'...
 
Now that eFootball has gone f2p and or maybe rather now that it will just be one game, updated into infinity, Konami can say pretty much anything they want because they are always talking about future updates. ML? Yes, in the future. They could add it in 2023 and it would still be a true statement.
 
Same core gameplay across platforms.

That really is the killing strike, right there.
I genuinely cannot see what they can tweak and refine of that thing we all played to make it worthwhile. I genuinely would play a freer, more dynamic version of pes 21 at this rate. That's how low my expectations have been managed.

He didnt mention anything about better animations for the players, either. Only the crowd.

Theres something quite cretinous about the sheer cynicism of konami.


Unless of course they're still working on that super-secret next gen version...!
 
Ximelez said:
When the product lead dev of a football game says 1 vs 1 is the essence of football, you know you’re not going to get a game that replicates the real thing in most ways.

The essence of football is literally the complete opposite of 1 vs 1… it’s a TEAM game. Even when 1 vs 1 scenarios arise in real football, it’s due to the movement of team mates and the success of the attacking player in possession is largely down to the movement of team mates. Very rarely (even more rarely in today’s game because it’s so pass, move & posession focused) do you get an isolated 1 vs 1 situation.

Even changing the camera so you literally can’t see your AI team mates is a complete idiotic idea but I really expect nothing less from Konami.

Edit: Having said that, one of my big problems with PES 2020/21 is that it’s ridiculous hard to beat defenders 1vs1 making the dribbling so unsatisfying that I don’t even attempt it but the teammate AI being neglected is embarrassing. 1 step forward, 2 steps back as usual.
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That's brings up an interesting conversation I had with someone on reddit. It was explained to me that Japan is very used to the 1v1 nature of sport given their 2 biggest sports are sumo (which is 1v1) and baseball (essentially 1v1 in the form of pitcher v batter).

So the idea that they want to highlight 1v1s, while flawed, is understandable given there seems to be a bit of cultural sporting significance there.

It also makes sense when you realize how the AI seems to be completely passive except for free 1 player selected to challenge the ball.

I wish I could talk to that dev and ask him how the game generates these 1v1s. How much do they focus on movement and decision making that leads up to 1v1s. Because 1v1s don't just happen. They are created specifically within an offensive system. They are created to isolate and exploit a defender. They are created in order to create exploitable space elsewhere for a teammate to run into. Have they programmed the AI for that too?

If a defender is getting exploited over and over, is the AI smart enough to limit the 1v1 from happening as frequently? What would they say to manager like Mourinho? A manager who wants his side compact and would hate the idea of a defender isolated and thus seemingly out of position?

What about teams who opt for a passing style instead of a dribbling one? After they punished in game for not being team 1v1?

When I hear the comment on 1v1s, it makes so much sense how the AI behaves; every situation is a 1v1 in PES. Made worse by how bad player switching has been the last few years.

The fundamental flaws in this game seem to come from a fundamental flaws in the ideas of what football is.
 
I don't pay much attention to all of gaming like I used to but good lord I can't remember a worse marketing campaign since Xbox One announcement
 
The features we're all looking forward to the most in here are the same ones with no release date. All we get is "in future Updates" or "in Premium DLC in the future". Master League, Edit Mode, Next-Gen features and enhancements.

At this pace, we're probably getting these elements by the time a PES 2023 would be released.
Makes sense. They're probably going to try and force Online on all of us for as long as they can and try to milk the hell out of microtransactions before they actually release worthy Offline features or game modes.
 
aderow said:
I'm sure that's the way it used to be but things changed. Team building modes are popular because people love the idea of building their teams with said superstars as well as legends and facing off against other people's collection of stars. It sounds great in theory, but I've never liked it's application in any sports game I've played (mostly because of the people I've played against).

And simultaneously came the rise of competitive. It's not strange that, at some point, people want to test their skills against others. And that is something all sorts of games have in common.

Maybe the fun of a sports game used to be taking the best players irl, but it's evolved. Lots of people want something different than just than in these games.
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On Master League you could build your team without having to pay for it and online gaming, wins who had the better skills and not who spend more money in it.

Don't know how this could be seen as an evolution for players.
 
You can make a really nice looking mobile game with Unreal Engine that translates really well to consoles. Of course I don't expect Konami to be able to do something like that lol.
 
aderow said:
That's brings up an interesting conversation I had with someone on reddit. It was explained to me that Japan is very used to the 1v1 nature of sport given their 2 biggest sports are sumo (which is 1v1) and baseball (essentially 1v1 in the form of pitcher v batter).

So the idea that they want to highlight 1v1s, while flawed, is understandable given there seems to be a bit of cultural sporting significance there.
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I think the guy you spoke with is making pretty silly points. The idea that because sumo wrestling and baseball is popular, Japanese developers place an undue emphasis on 1v1s in a football game is laughable! Football itself is still very popular in Japan, and lo and behold it was Japanese developers who used to make great football games which involved team ID, good shape, tactical knowledge, etc.

No, the reason(s) they focus on 1v1 situations is probably because...
  • it's "flashier";
  • it complements their "magic moments" approach to development in recent years;
  • it requires devoting less time and computing tasks to the rest of the gameplay;
  • it's easier to market;
  • it's the sort of thing they think esports fans want;
  • it fits into a more competitive mindset which privileges small, repeatable battles to test who the best is (maybe this and the last point are related);
  • and it's what a casual football fan thinks when watching football broadcasts, listening to most mainstream punditry, and watching highlights videos.
aderow said:
When I hear the comment on 1v1s, it makes so much sense how the AI behaves; every situation is a 1v1 in PES. Made worse by how bad player switching has been the last few years.

The fundamental flaws in this game seem to come from a fundamental flaws in the ideas of what football is.
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100% agree with this though. I am very doubtful the devs today working on the game understand much about football. Or if they do, and they're being given development priorities that conflict with representing the game well on the pitch, it's probably horrible for them.
 
eFootball: The Pitch is Ours
player: err, but I can't see it...
eFootball: Yeah well that tiny bit of the pitch you can see because we've zoomed in on it so much – that part of The Pitch is Ours!!
 
aderow said:
That's brings up an interesting conversation I had with someone on reddit. It was explained to me that Japan is very used to the 1v1 nature of sport given their 2 biggest sports are sumo (which is 1v1) and baseball (essentially 1v1 in the form of pitcher v batter).

So the idea that they want to highlight 1v1s, while flawed, is understandable given there seems to be a bit of cultural sporting significance there.

It also makes sense when you realize how the AI seems to be completely passive except for free 1 player selected to challenge the ball.

I wish I could talk to that dev and ask him how the game generates these 1v1s. How much do they focus on movement and decision making that leads up to 1v1s. Because 1v1s don't just happen. They are created specifically within an offensive system. They are created to isolate and exploit a defender. They are created in order to create exploitable space elsewhere for a teammate to run into. Have they programmed the AI for that too?

If a defender is getting exploited over and over, is the AI smart enough to limit the 1v1 from happening as frequently? What would they say to manager like Mourinho? A manager who wants his side compact and would hate the idea of a defender isolated and thus seemingly out of position?

What about teams who opt for a passing style instead of a dribbling one? After they punished in game for not being team 1v1?

When I hear the comment on 1v1s, it makes so much sense how the AI behaves; every situation is a 1v1 in PES. Made worse by how bad player switching has been the last few years.

The fundamental flaws in this game seem to come from a fundamental flaws in the ideas of what football is.
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But what's the national sport of Canada? Hockey I think? It is not 1vs1. It is IIRC 5vs5, 6vs 6 or what? But yet, "the Others" were first focusing on 1vs1.

I mean the guy explained this to you had a valid point, and a good intention for sure, but i think he is "misguided" but the good intentions.

Checking most competitive games the last 11 years, what I can see is, after people get better and better they tend to isolate the factors that they cannot control, as skill-wise they become more "equal".

And what someone cannot control? Luck and/or randomness, the RNG elements as LoL players used to say.

What can be an RNG factor? In a moba is the critical hit ratio, which is based on a % RNG, so it is randomness or luck.

In footy games, the MC/FuT pro players tend to say that RNG factor is the AI controlled teamates, the headers, the weather, the sunlight, etc.

So companies take the feedback and try to eliminate RNG factors. Everything seems OK, but the problem in this is, the online players share the same gameplay with offline players.

So either the first group or the latter is usually upset by something. For example until pes 2017, that the secondary press was working as always, people used tooam that everyome controls the CF and defends only by pressing :square:. After 2018,that secondary press became broken, being now more hit-or-miss than secondary press, nobody complained again.

Even my favorite trading card game, which is 1vs1 by nature, is so much influenced by this anti-luck trend.

Back to topic, this 1vs1 sound logic in theory for such type of mass multi-player games, but cannot apply in practice.

Especially Teamsports like football and basketball, except for class, Form, momentum, mentality, are still based also in luck. IE, Steven Gerrard or John Terry is taking a crucial penalty kick, he slips and misses the PK.
 
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I think that if the one v one gimmick was really a cultural thing of that kind, we would have seen it waaay before in the saga. Instead when the focus was to still make football games we never saw nonsense of this kind. I think Janguv and Slam above nailed it, it's just a mix of it being convenient for the online environoment and them copying it from EA.

Don't want to sound mean towards the Reddit guy who I'm sure was trying to make sense of it all his own way, but that whole place has often a weird habit of overthinking and find complicate explanations for simple things lol.
 
slamsoze said:
But what's the national sport of Canada? Hockey I think? It is not 1vs1, 5vs5, 6vs 6 or what? But yet, "the Others" were first focusing on 1vs1.

I mean the guy explained this to you had a valid point, and a good intention for sure, but i think he is "misguided" but the good intentions.

Checking most competitive games the last 11 years, what I can see is, after people get better and better they tend to isolate the factors that they cannot control, as skill-wise they become more "equal".

And what someone cannot control? Luck and/or randomness, the RNG elements as LoL players used to say.

What can be an RNG factor? In a moba is the critical hit ratio, which is based on a % RNG, so it is randomness or luck.

In footy games, the MC/FuT pro players tend to say that RNG factor is the AI controlled teamates, the headers, the weather, the sunlight, etc.

So companies take the feedback and try to eliminate RNG factors. Everything seems OK, but the problem in this is, the online players share the same gameplay with offline players.

So either the first group or the latter is usually upset by something. For example until pes 2017, that the secondary press was working as always, people used tooam that everyome controls the CF and defends only by pressing :square:. After 2018,that secondary press became broken, being now more hit-or-miss than secondary press, nobody complained again.

Even my favorite trading card game, which is 1vs1 by nature, is so much influenced by this anti-luck trend.

Back to topic, this 1vs1 sound logic in theory for such type of mass multi-player games, but cannot apply in practice.

Especially Teamsports like football and basketball, except for class, Form, momentum, mentality, are still based also in luck. IE, Steven Gerrard or John Terry is taking a crucial penalty kick, he slips and misses the PK.
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Yeah I think you're right to connect it to this "anti-luck" trend in competitive gaming in general.

And when this stuff is brought up, often it's couched in a "those guys wanna do this" (and that's fine), and we wanna do this other thing (also fine), and this difference is the problem. And I'm a bit ambivalent that it's "fine", really. I think it's a part of gaming culture that can be quite regressive. (And I don't only mean those angry gamer types who use the N-word versus their opponents when they're losing.)

The petulant need to have eliminated all elements of chance to prove you are the best at a given thing. What attends that moment of success? Isn't it a bit hollow to have sought it so much, at the expense of an experience?

Because that's what hangs in the balance for me – experience, immersion, atmosphere, enjoyment. There's a reason hyper-competitive playstyles and exploits, across the gaming world, are called "sweaty": the environment in which they're employed genuinely increases the heart-rate, makes the hands sweat. There's something of a thrill to that, but you see people addicted to it and yet they don't enjoy it. So you had news articles not long ago about the time requirements of Weekend League stuff in FIFA (I think that's what it's called; I didn't play it). Guys were campaigning for less stringent requirements, because they were going to do it either way, but it meant they had almost no other recreational time. That's all in pursuit of the buzz, the in-game rewards, the ranking. But not simply enjoyment, recreation.

There is something we lose when this way of understanding competition starts to structure games and gaming scenes in general.

There are alternatives, too. The real world of competitive sport is far more accepting of luck, more encouraging of the overarching journey. In PES terms, the reason I play online at all is because of the leagues, 1v1 and 11v11, I'm in. If it wasn't for those, I don't think I could stomach any longer the win-at-all-costs scene on myClub and Divisions. In these league games, you still want to win – you try, because that is the point of the game – but you enjoy other things, because the point of the game and the point of your playing it aren't the same thing: it's about the moments in the game, the narrative as it unfolds, the season as it progresses, the game as a spectacle, and the experience that's shared between people.

The pursuit to entirely eliminate luck sucks the colour out of it all.
 
I honestly hope that Konamis idea of 1v1 is slightly different than EA.
I dont think their plan is to switch all the players off, like in Fifa.
I think they just want more refined and exciting 1v1's, as in work on dribbling, add ball shielding, put some work in tackles.. in fairness - PES could use a bit of work in these departments, coz defending and dribbling were a chore lately..
Unless again im reading too much into it and they will just simply copy Fifa..
I dont know anymore..
tenor (2) (12).gif
 
Emroth said:
I honestly hope that Konamis idea of 1v1 is slightly different than EA.
I dont think their plan is to switch all the players off, like in Fifa.
I think they just want more refined and exciting 1v1's, as in work on dribbling, add ball shielding, put some work in tackles.. in fairness - PES could use a bit of work in these departments, coz defending and dribbling were a chore lately..
Unless again im reading too much into it and they will just simply copy Fifa..
I dont know anymore..
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sorry for replying off topic. I see you in next eFootball game development team with that avatar :D I laughed when I saw it and see your nick below, thought you were another spammer who played pes for the last 30 years :D
 
The whole 1v1 focus of both games seems like a cop-out to me. Lowest effort possible "solution" to problems the gameplay had.

Online players spamming pressure could have been addressed with stamina drain, injuries and better tactical options/AI for the team in possession. Nope, basically just delete the AI for both teams, far less effort. Trigger your own runs and control all your own defenders.

Why can't proper AI for both teams still be skill based anyway? As long as the tactical options and player individuality are deep enough on and off the ball, setting your team up to work to a gameplan effectively would be a skill in itself. Though I suppose going through FM style tactical screens probably isn't in line with the easily consumable all-action Twitch streamable content they want the game to produce.

And the removal of "luck" as a factor in sports games is the most anti-sim approach possible. Most sports are all about weighing up risk v reward and "playing the percentages". The decision making to have as many of the factors that involve luck either minimised or working in your favour as possible is a huge skill and often what seperates players and teams at the top level. Sports aren't all about pure execution.
 
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