Arsenal Thread

[Rantboy]

Rosicky and Cazorla are our best and more lively players, but only one gets to play in the hole right behind the striker. Cazorla spent most of the game confined to the wing and when Rosicky was subbed he was allowed to play in the hole and be more influential.
He was the one making De Gea work too, one of the few players in this Arsenal squad who actually shoot at goal. Most of the others are allergic to it.

The thing about having someone inside the box to score is true too, when we don't have Giroud that is highlighted.
Wenger often tried to emulate a Barcelona style, with the slight difference that our false 9 wasn't Messi, but Gervinho

What's worse, the team doesn't change style during a match and seems unable to shift gears when needed - when there was some 2 minutes left we had all the possession, but no penetration. Gervinho or Chamberlain would be trying to beat their men and kept passing side to side, until someone loses possession. Utterly frustrating that you give away possession without mustering even the simplest of shots at goal!

The next games are winnable - but dangerous! Wigan and Newcastle are fighting for their lives and chances are they will want it more than us, judging by today's performance.

I can only hope we qualify for the CL, and then Wenger forget about this tippy tappy bullshit. If there's anything Germany is teaching us this year is that efficiency and directness count much more than sterile possession. I hope Wenger takes note of that when he starts signing new players and rebuilding the team.

 

[jonneymendoza]

Was out all day but recorded the game and was basically offline so i did not see the results. i came home a few hours ago and watched the whole match.

Great start from the gunners. Should have been 2-3 goals up in the first 30mins.

What was Sagna doing? Get rid of him. He cost us the game big time. Single handed lost us 2 extra points. he is ****. ****ing useless.

this is why we will never win trophies because we always have some player in our team who will make a silly stupid mistake.

That is all it takes to win or lose. a single mistake. If Arsenal are serious about CL football and serious about winning trophies, these mistakes should not appear in a big game like this.

You dont want to say at the end of any game "damm if only we did not make that silly schoolboy error mistake we could have won" but instead admit defeat when you simply got outplayed by the opposition.

Sagna messed up BIG TIME. he such a waste. i personally would have takem him off at half time to send a message to the players that stupid mistakes like that is NOT ON in this club.

Sick and tired of these stupid players costing us game after game every bloody year. This is not no small micky mouse club so why cant Wenger and the staff be more vicious? Why do they appear to accept players making silly mistakes? Why cant Wenger and co start buying ready made players and pay them the salary at the current market rate(150k).

This team is 4 players short of contending for the title.

We need 4 quality players, one of them HAS to be a marquee Signing. Someone like falcoa, a ready made player that is world class.

 

[BobbyBox]

Sagna has been one of our best players for the last few seasons, he is having an off season this season.

I think he will probably be leaving as I don't think his heart is in it anymore (Playing for Arsenal that is) and it might be best if he does leave.

BUT I think Jonney what you are writing is crazy. All players make mistakes and Sagna isn't exactly a player that makes them all of the time. He has been one of our most consistent and reliable players over the last couple of seasons.

You ask why can't Wenger be more vicious etc he dropped our captain and no.1 goalkeeper for not playing well, so he does do it when necessary.

Why cant Wenger and co start buying ready made players?! Jonney really? Podolski, Giroud, Mertesacker, Cazorla, Arteta, Koscielny etc Do you really have that short of a memory?

You also moan about him paying players too much and now he needs to pay 150k for every player that he buys from now on? its the market rate for Man City and Chelsea but not for normal clubs, unless you want to see Arsenal in Administration and dropping down a league or two?

Anyway I too would like a Marquee signing like the Luck Dragon from The never ending story, but I don't think it is going to happen

 

[Rantboy]

Yeah, that was harsh when we analyse Sagna's career on the whole. This season he had some good games here and there (and an excellent game as CB when needed) but yesterday it was clear he didn't give a fuck. I didn't see him stick a foot out to block any cross, except one last ditch tackle in the 2nd half. But to me it was clear he was just going through the motions. Must be thinking of PSG surely, as he didn't renew a contract and looks unlikely to.

But it saddens me to admit that is that Jonney is right about one thing: amongst our ranks there's always at least one player fucking things up and costing us on big occasions. Amongst the top tier clubs in the Premier League, it looks like it happens way more often with Arsenal.

On big matches some of these guys bottle it, simple as that. It's either Szczesny + Koscielny, Fabianski, Diaby, Ramsey, Sagna, or Gibbs... and players we had such as Silvestre, Denilson, Bendtner.... think about it, these guys have always find a way, there's always the propensity to fuck things up in the most spectacular ways.

The ability this Arsenal team has to self destruct is baffling.

Yesterday was further proof of this - soon after Ramsey failed to pick out a wide open Walcott to his right (Podolski could have crossed it too), Sagna did what he did.

There's something ingrained in the culture of this club that is allowing these things to go on. We know we aren't as ruthless as we'd like to be and I for one can't imagine Man United gifting that goal like we did.

I think there's truth to what Jonney says too about Wenger being too nice. It's time to be ruthless with these guys, they earn more money in 1 season than most people will ever earn in their lifetime. Playtime is over, these things shouldn't be tolerated at a club like Arsenal.
Sagna illustrates it, look at him, an experienced France international.
We have a team of grown up, experienced men, playing like school boys.

 

[BobbyBox]

Yeah, that was harsh when we analyse Sagna's career on the whole. This season he had some good games here and there (and an excellent game as CB when needed) but yesterday it was clear he didn't give a fuck. I didn't see him stick a foot out to block any cross, except one last ditch tackle in the 2nd half. But to me it was clear he was just going through the motions. Must be thinking of PSG surely, as he didn't renew a contract and looks unlikely to.

But it saddens me to admit that is that Jonney is right about one thing: amongst our ranks there's always at least one player fucking things up and costing us on big occasions. Amongst the top tier clubs in the Premier League, it looks like it happens way more often with Arsenal.

On big matches some of these guys bottle it, simple as that. It's either Szczesny + Koscielny, Fabianski, Diaby, Ramsey, Sagna, or Gibbs... and players we had such as Silvestre, Denilson, Bendtner.... think about it, these guys have always find a way, there's always the propensity to fuck things up in the most spectacular ways.

The ability this Arsenal team has to self destruct is baffling.

Yesterday was further proof of this - soon after Ramsey failed to pick out a wide open Walcott to his right (Podolski could have crossed it too), Sagna did what he did.

There's something ingrained in the culture of this club that is allowing these things to go on. We know we aren't as ruthless as we'd like to be and I for one can't imagine Man United gifting that goal like we did.

I think there's truth to what Jonney says too about Wenger being too nice. It's time to be ruthless with these guys, they earn more money in 1 season than most people will ever earn in their lifetime. Playtime is over, these things shouldn't be tolerated at a club like Arsenal.
Sagna illustrates it, look at him, an experienced France international.
We have a team of grown up, experienced men, playing like school boys.

You think it happens to us more because you support Arsenal.

You can't imagine a Man United player gifting a goal like we did?

Van Persie gave the ball away for our goal, so yes Man United players fuck up, Chelsea players fuck up, Barcelona players fuck up etc etc etc

Most goals happen because someone on the team isn't doing there job properly, or a number of players aren't doing their job properly.

So many times players in many games don't pick out the best pass, you seem to have a hard on for Ramsey not passing a ball the way you would have liked him to. I see this in many games when a player on many other teams chooses a wrong pass when another player seems to be in a better position, every week, in nearly every game you will see a player do this.

Again when you support a club, more ref decisions go against you, more fuck ups happen, we have more injuries and the majority of the players we buy are shit. Most teams that are not winning or doing as well say exactly the same things.

Wenger never plays Scillachi, that is pretty ruthless, he didn't play Chamakh, Arshavin, got rid of Santos on loan etc he has dropped his Captain and no.1 goalkeeper, I think that is pretty ruthless and doing what is right.

Bring a schoolboy club and get them to play the current Premier league champions? I think the score would be different. Again like many other times I think what you are saying is very exaggerated.

 

[Rantboy]

You think it happens to us more because you support Arsenal.

You can't imagine a Man United player gifting a goal like we did?

Van Persie gave the ball away for our goal, so yes Man United players fuck up, Chelsea players fuck up, Barcelona players fuck up etc etc etc

Most goals happen because someone on the team isn't doing there job properly, or a number of players aren't doing their job properly.

So many times players in many games don't pick out the best pass, you seem to have a hard on for Ramsey not passing a ball the way you would have liked him to. I see this in many games when a player on many other teams chooses a wrong pass when another player seems to be in a better position, every week, in nearly every game you will see a player do this.

Again when you support a club, more ref decisions go against you, more fuck ups happen, we have more injuries and the majority of the players we buy are shit. Most teams that are not winning or doing as well say exactly the same things.

Wenger never plays Scillachi, that is pretty ruthless, he didn't play Chamakh, Arshavin, got rid of Santos on loan etc he has dropped his Captain and no.1 goalkeeper, I think that is pretty ruthless and doing what is right.

Bring a schoolboy club and get them to play the current Premier league champions? I think the score would be different. Again like many other times I think what you are saying is very exaggerated.

After I posted it I thought about it too, that my perception may be magnified because I watch more Arsenal than others. But then again, I watch many cup finals and derbys and big matches as United v Chelsea v City v Spurs v Everton, and so on... I see highlights of those when I can't catch it live, and I'll say it again: whether you like it or not, our players' level of concentration isn't good enough at this level.

It's funny you're comparing Van Persie's mistake to Sagna's. It's as if Cazorla, Rosicky and Walcott didn't still have an awful lot to do there, isn't it

Exaggerations in the way we speak is very common, whether it's a football forum or we're in a pub. But if you want to take the stuff I post in its literal meaning everytime, then ok. Such guys are not playing as schoolboys. They frequently play way below par for a team of this stature and ambition.

It's not that I have a hard on for Ramsey's mistakes. I think he's been doing a magnificent job inside our own half, but when he is attacking he is our weakest link. His decision making is shit, his execution is often shit and you can tell that the player is a nerve wreck with the ball on his feet when push comes to shove.

As for the monumental fuck ups like Sagna's (2 in 1, a horrible backpass and the most naive of tackles inside the box) they reflect the mental frailty of many players we have. The Kos + Szczesny fuck up in that League Cup final is another classic example of that. You just can't make this stuff up.

On that evidence I maintain that Arsenal has more players on the edge of making us implode, at least in recent years.

As for guys like Chamakh, Andre Santos and Park (who must have had like half an hour of football wearing an Arsenal shirt) I think it's another problem. It's almost as if our scouting wasn't good or we signed the players without needing some of them.

 

[BobbyBox]

After I posted it I thought about it too, that my perception may be magnified because I watch more Arsenal than others. But then again, I watch many cup finals and derbys and big matches as United v Chelsea v City v Spurs v Everton, and so on... I see highlights of those when I can't catch it live, and I'll say it again: whether you like it or not, our players' level of concentration isn't good enough at this level.

It's funny you're comparing Van Persie's mistake to Sagna's. It's as if Cazorla, Rosicky and Walcott didn't still have an awful lot to do there, isn't it

Exaggerations in the way we speak is very common, whether it's a football forum or we're in a pub. But if you want to take the stuff I post in its literal meaning everytime, then ok. Such guys are not playing as schoolboys. They frequently play way below par for a team of this stature and ambition.

It's not that I have a hard on for Ramsey's mistakes. I think he's been doing a magnificent job inside our own half, but when he is attacking he is our weakest link. His decision making is shit, his execution is often shit and you can tell that the player is a nerve wreck with the ball on his feet when push comes to shove.

As for the monumental fuck ups like Sagna's (2 in 1, a horrible backpass and the most naive of tackles inside the box) they reflect the mental frailty of many players we have. The Kos + Szczesny fuck up in that League Cup final is another classic example of that. You just can't make this stuff up.

On that evidence I maintain that Arsenal has more players on the edge of making us implode, at least in recent years.

As for guys like Chamakh, Andre Santos and Park (who must have had like half an hour of football wearing an Arsenal shirt) I think it's another problem. It's almost as if our scouting wasn't good or we signed the players without needing some of them.

But you are highlighting Sagna as a more recent example ok? but how does your argument work when Sagna over the last couple of seasons has been our most consistent/reliable player?

But now he is having an off season it is Arsenals fault that we have this player playing for our team against Man United? It's Arsenals fault that out of nowhere Sagna plays crap, after having very good seasons before?

This is where I hold exception, the same with Ramsey, if you are calling Ramsey not making one right pass in a match a huge mistake then every player on every team in the world will make those 'Huge mistakes' many times in a season.

And again I will say it, Ramsey isn't really in the team to set up goals, its Cazorla, Rosicky, the wide forwards like Walcott and Gervinho etc to do that. Ramsey is there to do a different job. Just because a player makes a wrong pass doesn't mean he is a nervous wreck also. I really don't see how you think he is either? I've seen Cazorla make many bad passes in an Arsenal shirt.

You said you can't imagine Man United making a mistake like the Arsenal one. Van Persie's mistake led to our goal. If he didn't make it, we wouldn't have scored that goal. It was to highlight that of course Man United make those mistakes and indeed in the same game that you are talking about.

Giggs did the same sort of thing not so long ago as well and they are the ones I can remember recently. There will be quite a few others from the start of the season where a Man United player loses concentration and it leads to a goal, or at least a goal scoring chance.

Hummels made a mistake in the game against Real Madrid. If I was to watch lots of world football I could probably list 100's of mistakes from very good footballers leading to penalties and goals etc

The schoolboys thing wasn't the only thing I think you exaggerate on as you know we had a very long conversation not so long ago on how I think you exaggerate a lot.

Overall I think some of our players have concentration problems, Wenger has brought in a few crap players recently, he can be a bit harder on his team and players in certain situations etc

This would be a fair comment.

Our players have concentration problems, there is something fundamentally wrong with the way our team is being trained, when will we ever get experienced, ready made players playing for us? Wenger has a long track record of hampering/destroying promising players careers, Ramsey is a nervous wreck, when will Arsenal be ruthless?! Why don't Arsenal spend any money?! etc etc

These are exaggerations and this is just over the last few weeks in this thread. I'm not just talking about you Rentboy other people do it as well.

Some of the things people are saying have some merit, but people turn everything 'up to 11' and expand on things that just make everything a lot worse than they are.

As I have said before it just makes me frustrated seeing all of this said all of the time, especially when a result doesn't go the way we want it to go.

Chamakh actually had quite a few games at the beginning of his Arsenal career and did well, then Van Persie came back and he couldn't handle it. Santos played quite a few games initially as well and didn't play too bad. Park is the only one that hasn't played really. But if you want to say they have had 30mins of football in an Arsenal shirt, then who am I to say you are exaggerating

And again every clubs scouting system gets duff buys and a lot of them, if every bodies scouting systems got the perfect players every time you would have 20 teams fighting for the League title come the end of may. But we have also bought Podolski, Giroud, Mertesacker, Koscielny, Cazorla, Arteta etc

Anyway you carry on as if our team is the worse run team in the world and act like we are struggling in the relegation zone, but the reality is we are 4th behind probably the biggest club in world football and two of the richest clubs in world football.

That is the reality, Arsenal and Arsene Wenger have made mistakes, but people are going waaaaaaaaaaaay over the top imo

 

[AK.Rabona]

Every club and every player makes mistakes. Just remembering the Terry assist against us. I think that was last year(?)

However, Arsenal are truly another league in this category. Not pinpointing any players directly, but as Rentboy said, Arsenal are a different league in bizarre screw-ups. Almost to the point where I had begun to find it characteristic of the club.

It's not really poor defending. Just outright bizarre, possibly bad luck. For example, I honestly believe Koscielny is a really good defender and I think he has been showing massive improvements starting from last season. But bad positions just find him. I can't recall any particular instance right now, but I remember Koscielny, along with almost all of the Arsenal defensive line, committing bizarre mistakes(or maybe 'being a victim of' is more appropriate).

It's something along the lines of 'the ball bounces of Koscielny's head and as Sagna tries to clear the ball out the box, he fails to get a good foot in and swipes the ball to the opposition player, who gets a lucky bounce past Vermaalen, who had been marking him. The player shoots and the ball hits Sczc's leg and goes through his legs.' Of course, this is after Arsenal attacked for 75 minutes and hit the post 5 times and failed to score and increase their lead.

However, I feel like this phenomena has ceased to be so prominent lately. But last season and more, it was like a joke.

 

[BobbyBox]

See I don't see much bizarre, maybe it used to be a bit with our goalkeepers, but there was a period where at least one our defenders would fuck up.

But rarely has it been bizarre, it just has been bad defending and lapses of concentration.

For instance we have the best away record for goals against and are equal to Man United on Goals against overall this season.

But there is this notion that our goals are down to more individual errors than most teams, that may be true to some extent, but I also think it is exaggerated, just as you saying that we are prone to outright bizarre, I think that is an exaggeration.

I am on a bit of a campaign here, but I think a lot of mud has stuck to Arsenal over the last few seasons and people still use this against Arsenal and Wenger, when it isn't necessarily true or at least to the extent people are making it out to be.

 

[gerd]

My son's youth team had a tournament last weekend. The kids are now 10 years old and they are at an age where i let them play in different positions. This is important for their development. My son is usually a CF or a winger.
This season i let him play as left or right full back because he needs to get rid of his shyness in physical contacts.
They played the semi-final of the tournament against a team that was vastly inferior to them. They scored a first goal and after that missed chance after chance. At the end of the match our team had a corner and my son was the only one who stayed back. After a pinball situation in the box, a midfielder decided to pass the ball back to my son. It wasn't the best of passes, the atacker was quicker than my son, my son's tackle came too late and this resulted in the equaliser. Afterwards there was a penalty shoot-out and we lost. I got criticised becuase i played my son as a defender and that his defensive mistake let to the goal...

Why am i writing this ?
Fans rarely talk about defensive mistakes if forwards rarely miss chances. Arsenal needs a few prolific strikers or a midfielder like Lampard or Bale who scores a lot... Last year the team was too reliant on RVP and now several players score, but they still miss a lot of chances. It's too easy to blame the defense...

 

[BobbyBox]

My son's youth team had a tournament last weekend. The kids are now 10 years old and they are at an age where i let them play in different positions. This is important for their development. My son is usually a CF or a winger.
This season i let him play as left or right full back because he needs to get rid of his shyness in physical contacts.
They play the semi-final of the tournament against a team that was vastly infoerior to them. They scored a first goal and after then missed chance after chance. At the end of the match ourteam had a corner and my son was the only one who stayed back. After a pinball situation in the box, a midfielder decided to mut the ball back to my son. It wasn't the best of passes, the atacker was quicker than my son, my son's tackle came to late and this resulted in the equaliser. Afterwards there was a penalty shoot-out and we lost. I got criticised becuase i played my son as a defender and that his defensive mistake let to the goal...

Why am i writing this ?
Fans rarely talk about defensive mistakes if forwards rarely miss chances. Arsenal needs a few prolific strikers or a midfielder like Lampard or Bale who scores a lot... Last year the team was too reliant on RVP and now several players score, but they still miss a lot of chances. It's too easy to blame the defense...

Yeah I agree with this, we do need more bite up front and maybe a different formation/style of play, so that we can be both reliable in defence and get the goals needed.

At the moment we either score lots but our defence suffers or we have a strong defence but we are not scoring enough goals etc.

Wenger needs to find that happy medium for next season.

We don't necessarily need a goalscorer that puts away 30 a season (although that would be great) I think we can share the goals out amongst the team, but it should be if we are getting goals from more players, we should have more chances of scoring because we are not reliant on one player. But there are too many games where our players are left wanting.

At the moment with 3 games left to play we have 8 goals less than we did last season and 13 goals less against us than last season. It all depends on the last 3 games but there isn't much difference there and I think we can manage to share the goals out more, but we need to score many more to challenge for the title next season.

A big factor would be to bring on another striker so when Giroud is not playing great he can be subbed or left out for a few games and we still have that threat up front in the centre.

Anyway, signs point to a bit of a shake up in the summer with some heavy spending (In Arsenal Terms anyway ) and I keep my fingers crossed that it all goes well.

 

[Rantboy]

But you are highlighting Sagna as a more recent example ok? but how does your argument work when Sagna over the last couple of seasons has been our most consistent/reliable player?

But now he is having an off season it is Arsenals fault that we have this player playing for our team against Man United? It's Arsenals fault that out of nowhere Sagna plays crap, after having very good seasons before?

Ok, I'm not singling out Sagna. It's more about the type of mistake we seem to be more prone to.
It's not entirely Arsenal's and Wenger's fault that he played so shit - to an extent, mind you! It's still up to the manager to gauge a player's hunger and willingness, and let's not forget he has a hungry talented youngster named Carl firing on all cylinders for the RB position.

This is where I hold exception, the same with Ramsey, if you are calling Ramsey not making one right pass in a match a huge mistake then every player on every team in the world will make those 'Huge mistakes' many times in a season.

And again I will say it, Ramsey isn't really in the team to set up goals, its Cazorla, Rosicky, the wide forwards like Walcott and Gervinho etc to do that. Ramsey is there to do a different job. Just because a player makes a wrong pass doesn't mean he is a nervous wreck also. I really don't see how you think he is either? I've seen Cazorla make many bad passes in an Arsenal shirt.

Like I said, I don't want to take anything away from Ramsey, but I'm only talking about crucial plays. I know Cazorla misplaced many passes and had an off day for his standards (although he was one of the few still making De Gea work).
The occasions when Ramsey is a fumbling nerve wreck are the crucial ones - he clearly gets nervous. He passes the ball just fine in the middle of the park, but when he has to pick out a wide open winger, he either makes the wrong decision or misplaces the pass (he did both against United, much to Walcott's despair).
Just to name a few recent examples, Ramsey missed 2 one-on-ones with the keeper against Fulham and WBA. When he should have been at least putting it on target.

You're saying it's not his job to set up goals or score, and I won't disagree. Then maybe he shouldn't go forward at all. Go tell this to Wenger - he wants total football, he is the one wanting players to do a bit of everything.

You see how you are overly understanding and forgiving with Ramsey's shortcomings but you're the first one to bash Arshavin when he can't defend? Ramsey is very ineffective at attacking play and Arshavin can't defend even if his life depends on it. Yet one is rewarded with regular first team football, while the other is ostracised from professional football.

That's why I'll say it again: I'd much rather have a team focusing on the strengths of specialists.

You said you can't imagine Man United making a mistake like the Arsenal one. Van Persie's mistake led to our goal. If he didn't make it, we wouldn't have scored that goal. It was to highlight that of course Man United make those mistakes and indeed in the same game that you are talking about.

Giggs did the same sort of thing not so long ago as well and they are the ones I can remember recently. There will be quite a few others from the start of the season where a Man United player loses concentration and it leads to a goal, or at least a goal scoring chance.

Hummels made a mistake in the game against Real Madrid. If I was to watch lots of world football I could probably list 100's of mistakes from very good footballers leading to penalties and goals etc

Are you insisting on this comparison really Bobby? You'd have to find another example of a United cock up - maybe ask beachryan or other supporters. But this one is not even close mate, RVP lost the ball in their offensive half and it still took a brilliant piece of interplay with Rosicky and Walcott finishing it from a controversial position.

I'm talking about monumental fuck ups. Sagna passed it inch perfect to RVP and tackled him inside the box! What else could he have done there? Maybe step up and take the penalty himself??

The Hummels example is much more in the same bracket, I agree. It was a horrible mistake but they were lucky enough to still batter Madrid 4-1.

The schoolboys thing wasn't the only thing I think you exaggerate on as you know we had a very long conversation not so long ago on how I think you exaggerate a lot.

Overall I think some of our players have concentration problems, Wenger has brought in a few crap players recently, he can be a bit harder on his team and players in certain situations etc

This would be a fair comment.

Our players have concentration problems, there is something fundamentally wrong with the way our team is being trained, when will we ever get experienced, ready made players playing for us? Wenger has a long track record of hampering/destroying promising players careers, Ramsey is a nervous wreck, when will Arsenal be ruthless?! Why don't Arsenal spend any money?! etc etc

These are exaggerations and this is just over the last few weeks in this thread. I'm not just talking about you Rentboy other people do it as well.

Some of the things people are saying have some merit, but people turn everything 'up to 11' and expand on things that just make everything a lot worse than they are.

As I have said before it just makes me frustrated seeing all of this said all of the time, especially when a result doesn't go the way we want it to go.

Well I do think Wenger has a different style and he is much more controlled than other managers. I'm sure Ferguson, for instance, would eat them alive - think of what he'd have done to Sagna? A mistake is a mistake, only human, but what if he noticed he was coasting through the match like he seemed to have done?

Sometimes I think some players are too comfortable under Wenger. It really shows.

The concentration and mentality issue you make jokes about is actually a crucial thing and it's costing us big time. That's exactly the point I wanted to discuss and I'm glad you brought it up.

Think about some of our big matches recently - that 2011 League Cup Final, us being knocked out of the CL by Milan in 2012 and Bayern in 2013.
These two Champions League ties illustrate better what I want to bring up.

Do you think it's normal for a team like Arsenal to get battered in those first legs like we did, only to make a spectacular comeback in the 2nd leg, falling agonisingly short of the mark? I for one think it's telling.

I think we can all agree this team is not playing as good as they can. Is Wenger taking the best out of his team?

I think there's a big psychological factor there allied to lack of concentration - the team bottles it when we have all to play for. And then when we are written off, we go in the 2nd leg and show what we can really do, when it's too little too late. Some people sum it up and say we lack 'winning mentality'. That isn't an inaccurate assumption IMO.

It's almost as if the team is afraid of winning something. It's very complex, but I do think there is something broken in the way the players are being coached. It's the only explanation for this collective mental frailty. I refuse to believe we signed a full group of players who all possessed these psychological barriers individually.

You make jokes about it, but I take it seriously.

Chamakh actually had quite a few games at the beginning of his Arsenal career and did well, then Van Persie came back and he couldn't handle it. Santos played quite a few games initially as well and didn't play too bad. Park is the only one that hasn't played really. But if you want to say they have had 30mins of football in an Arsenal shirt, then who am I to say you are exaggerating

Read my post again. I said Park had about 30 minutes of football at Arsenal.
Chamakh was bad luck (although we never played to his strengths to be fair to him).
Andre Santos is a case of bad scouting. How could they expect him to endure the rigours of the Premiership as a left back? The guy is a known liability - even for Brazilian league standards, where the game is much less physical and defensive! That speaks volumes. Former Brazilian National team coach, Mano Menezes, had told the press that Andre Santos was a constant headache.

I can find the link to his interview, if it's translated, for you to see.
This is no exaggeration my friend.

And again every clubs scouting system gets duff buys and a lot of them, if every bodies scouting systems got the perfect players every time you would have 20 teams fighting for the League title come the end of may. But we have also bought Podolski, Giroud, Mertesacker, Koscielny, Cazorla, Arteta etc

Anyway you carry on as if our team is the worse run team in the world and act like we are struggling in the relegation zone, but the reality is we are 4th behind probably the biggest club in world football and two of the richest clubs in world football.

That is the reality, Arsenal and Arsene Wenger have made mistakes, but people are going waaaaaaaaaaaay over the top imo

I can say things in the heat of the moment when I'm angry after a bad result, many of us do. But I don't think I'm going over the top. I'm not ever saying Arsenal are a bad run club and I dare you to find a post by me saying it.

Having said that, is it very well run? Does it add up that we have a heavy wage bill for the quality of our squad? We can dig out some stats, I think it's been posted here before. Our wage bill is surprisingly expensive.
Are the quality of the players in our squad and the results on the pitch on par with the most expensive tickets in world football?
These are known facts and stats that we discussed here before over and over again. I don't feel like banging on this drum.

I don't concentrate only on bad things, but do you think it's normal that our scout system picks out youngsters who doesn't get to kick a ball for Arsenal? Those Brazilian kids that never got work permits and spend all their contract time on loan to 2nd division in Spain? Are we doing the best for their development if we intend to use them one day?

Look at the amount of deadwood we have - Denilson, Bendtner, Vela (who now is doing really well), Arshavin (who I back to perform well again when he joins another club), Park, Chamakh, Squilaci, Santos...
I'm no football business expert, but I have a genuine question: is it better to cut our losses and sell these guys or do we keep them in our books loaning them out and paying half of their wages?
When you look at how United dealt with their flops (such as Bebe) for instance.
So, do we really need to keep these guys occupying space in our books?

I don't know man, I'm not always with the brigade of fans who say 'spend, spend, spend' but here's a question for you: do you feel happy if your club is rich or successful?
Right now, after 8 years, I say well done for being a successful business and being one of 2 richest clubs in the world. But what's in it for the fans?

 

[bebo]

Why is the rumor mill spinning stories of Wenger's departure? I would understand if the tables looked 5th n 6th destine . Sorry to change topic here, just feels like an awkward loud fart to me.

 

[gerd]

In yesterday's Football Weekly podcast Philippe Auclair (L'Equipe) said that there is a strong rumour that Wenger would leave Arsenal and would be replaced by Joachim Löw (Löw himself would be replaced with Jupp Heynckes). Wenger would go to PSG and Ancelotti to Real Madrid.

Usually L'Equipe is very good informed and Auclair is somebody who enjoys a rather close (but professional) relationship with Wenger...

 

[bebo]

Well supposedly Wenger is meeting w/ folks from Qatar group the owners of PSG. It very well could be a commentator job for F1 Grand Prix .

 

[BobbyBox]

Ok, I'm not singling out Sagna. It's more about the type of mistake we seem to be more prone to.
It's not entirely Arsenal's and Wenger's fault that he played so shit - to an extent, mind you! It's still up to the manager to gauge a player's hunger and willingness, and let's not forget he has a hungry talented youngster named Carl firing on all cylinders for the RB position.

He used our most experienced right back in a big game, most managers would have done the same. He hasn't been playing well this season, but in big games like this then experience is usually a big factor.

Carl is playing well when he plays, but he is still young. Would you like Carl as our first choice right back next season and get another player as back up for him? Or would you have a more experienced right back in front of Carl next season? (If Sagna leaves). It would be interesting to know.

Like I said, I don't want to take anything away from Ramsey, but I'm only talking about crucial plays. I know Cazorla misplaced many passes and had an off day for his standards (although he was one of the few still making De Gea work).
The occasions when Ramsey is a fumbling nerve wreck are the crucial ones - he clearly gets nervous. He passes the ball just fine in the middle of the park, but when he has to pick out a wide open winger, he either makes the wrong decision or misplaces the pass (he did both against United, much to Walcott's despair).
Just to name a few recent examples, Ramsey missed 2 one-on-ones with the keeper against Fulham and WBA. When he should have been at least putting it on target.

You're saying it's not his job to set up goals or score, and I won't disagree. Then maybe he shouldn't go forward at all. Go tell this to Wenger - he wants total football, he is the one wanting players to do a bit of everything.

You see how you are overly understanding and forgiving with Ramsey's shortcomings but you're the first one to bash Arshavin when he can't defend? Ramsey is very ineffective at attacking play and Arshavin can't defend even if his life depends on it. Yet one is rewarded with regular first team football, while the other is ostracised from professional football.

That's why I'll say it again: I'd much rather have a team focusing on the strengths of specialists.

He is a fumbling nervous wreck when he goes forward? it just doesn't make sense and I don't agree with it. He is ok and assured up until the half way line and then falls apart after it? it just really doesn't make sense what you are saying.

Ramsey has had some very assured games recently and is playing well, I have seen him make really good passes forward and be involved in good build up attacking play.

You can point out the handful of bad decisions he makes and go crazy about them, but I know he isn't as bad as you are making out on that front.

I've said before that I don't think Arshavin was as bad as people made out, but when he didn't play well, he was missing from the team and it was like having 10 men on the field. With Ramsey he is always fighting and getting stuck in and recently playing very well, so I do think he justifies a start more than Arshavin did in the last couple of seasons.

Are you insisting on this comparison really Bobby? You'd have to find another example of a United cock up - maybe ask beachryan or other supporters. But this one is not even close mate, RVP lost the ball in their offensive half and it still took a brilliant piece of interplay with Rosicky and Walcott finishing it from a controversial position.

I'm talking about monumental fuck ups. Sagna passed it inch perfect to RVP and tackled him inside the box! What else could he have done there? Maybe step up and take the penalty himself??

The Hummels example is much more in the same bracket, I agree. It was a horrible mistake but they were lucky enough to still batter Madrid 4-1.

In my eyes both were monumental fuck ups because they both led to goals. Van Persie losing it was unexpected for his team mates and left them exposed and made it much easier for the counter, which led to the goal.

I might if I have time later and do a little search for bad mistakes that led to goals from Man United/Man City/Chelsea teams this season, I'm sure I could find quite a few. But the truth is I probably wont be bothered

Well I do think Wenger has a different style and he is much more controlled than other managers. I'm sure Ferguson, for instance, would eat them alive - think of what he'd have done to Sagna? A mistake is a mistake, only human, but what if he noticed he was coasting through the match like he seemed to have done?

Sometimes I think some players are too comfortable under Wenger. It really shows.

Alex Ferguson has stuck with Evra even though a lot of what I have read from fans shows that they are losing faith with him, but he is still played. Similar situation as Sagna. He plays Scholes and Giggs in certain situations where it has been detrimental to the team. All managers make these decisions and they suffer from them.

Again he shipped out Santos, dropped Szcz and Vermaelen the Captain. It may have been true a season or so ago, but you are harping on about it still when he is obviously showing signs that he has changed and moving on. This is what I was saying with people still using stuff to beat Wenger/Arsenal with even though they have shown over the last couple of seasons that they have changed and are changing things.

The concentration and mentality issue you make jokes about is actually a crucial thing and it's costing us big time. That's exactly the point I wanted to discuss and I'm glad you brought it up.

Think about some of our big matches recently - that 2011 League Cup Final, us being knocked out of the CL by Milan in 2012 and Bayern in 2013.
These two Champions League ties illustrate better what I want to bring up.

Do you think it's normal for a team like Arsenal to get battered in those first legs like we did, only to make a spectacular comeback in the 2nd leg, falling agonisingly short of the mark? I for one think it's telling.

I think we can all agree this team is not playing as good as they can. Is Wenger taking the best out of his team?

I think there's a big psychological factor there allied to lack of concentration - the team bottles it when we have all to play for. And then when we are written off, we go in the 2nd leg and show what we can really do, when it's too little too late. Some people sum it up and say we lack 'winning mentality'. That isn't an inaccurate assumption IMO.

It's almost as if the team is afraid of winning something. It's very complex, but I do think there is something broken in the way the players are being coached. It's the only explanation for this collective mental frailty. I refuse to believe we signed a full group of players who all possessed these psychological barriers individually.

You make jokes about it, but I take it seriously.

The games against Milan and Bayern we got beaten in the first legs by much better teams. The second legs they relaxed and we benefited from that, but we were no match really at the time for either of them really on one off games, the damage of what both of those teams could do to us were already done.

The Birmingham game was just shit, that is true.

What jokes do I make about it all? Some things I am a bit light hearted because I like to enjoy football, we are in a fight for 4th its exciting, rather than piss and moan about it all, I would rather enjoy what is put in front of me.

I just do not see the point of supporting a club if you are moaning about them all of the time.

Read my post again. I said Park had about 30 minutes of football at Arsenal.
Chamakh was bad luck (although we never played to his strengths to be fair to him).
Andre Santos is a case of bad scouting. How could they expect him to endure the rigours of the Premiership as a left back? The guy is a known liability - even for Brazilian league standards, where the game is much less physical and defensive! That speaks volumes. Former Brazilian National team coach, Mano Menezes, had told the press that Andre Santos was a constant headache.

I can find the link to his interview, if it's translated, for you to see.
This is no exaggeration my friend.

Sorry about Park, I did misread I thought you said them combined. We didn't play to Chamakhs strengths and it also seems that West Ham aren't either. We were playing exactly the same way before Van Persie came back and he was playing well and scoring, so I wouldn't blame Arsenal as much as the players mentality, much like Arshavin.

I think our scouts go on more than just an interview with a former boss, I just think you simplify things way to much. He had a good handful of games when he first started with us and everybody was pretty excited about Santos to begin with, but he didn't turn out to be that player.

I can say things in the heat of the moment when I'm angry after a bad result, many of us do. But I don't think I'm going over the top. I'm not ever saying Arsenal are a bad run club and I dare you to find a post by me saying it.

Having said that, is it very well run? Does it add up that we have a heavy wage bill for the quality of our squad? We can dig out some stats, I think it's been posted here before. Our wage bill is surprisingly expensive.
Are the quality of the players in our squad and the results on the pitch on par with the most expensive tickets in world football?
These are known facts and stats that we discussed here before over and over again. I don't feel like banging on this drum.

I don't concentrate only on bad things, but do you think it's normal that our scout system picks out youngsters who doesn't get to kick a ball for Arsenal? Those Brazilian kids that never got work permits and spend all their contract time on loan to 2nd division in Spain? Are we doing the best for their development if we intend to use them one day?

Look at the amount of deadwood we have - Denilson, Bendtner, Vela (who now is doing really well), Arshavin (who I back to perform well again when he joins another club), Park, Chamakh, Squilaci, Santos...
I'm no football business expert, but I have a genuine question: is it better to cut our losses and sell these guys or do we keep them in our books loaning them out and paying half of their wages?
When you look at how United dealt with their flops (such as Bebe) for instance.
So, do we really need to keep these guys occupying space in our books?

I don't know man, I'm not always with the brigade of fans who say 'spend, spend, spend' but here's a question for you: do you feel happy if your club is rich or successful?
Right now, after 8 years, I say well done for being a successful business and being one of 2 richest clubs in the world. But what's in it for the fans?

I do think you are being over the top. All of your posts imply how bad the decisions of Wenger are, critcising all of the way. You even go on about it in the last paragraphs of this post

For every one of those players you have mentioned I can mention much more that have been successful, I don't think the failure rate is any different if you compare it to any other teams.

8 years is more than I expected for us not to be competing for the league/other comps, but I understand why we have been in the situation we are in and I think we can benefit from being patient in the next few years, hopefully starting from this summer as the financial shackles seem to be finally broken.

Again the reality is that we are up against the biggest club in the world and the two richest clubs in the world to win stuff in England. We continue to get into the champs league and in the top four which although is not a trophy is a big accomplishment imo.

But of course it's not enough, I want to win things and I think it will come. But my main thing is to enjoy watching football, as I have said I just do not see the point in supporting your club if you are just moaning and being unhappy all of the time.

I think Arsenal/Wenger over the last couple of seasons have been righting all of the wrongs slowly but surely. But people are failing to recognise this and keep going on about things and exaggerating things that just do not help the situation at all.

Anyway I hope we get 4th and I hope we spend a good deal of money in the summer and can win something next season.

 

[jonneymendoza]

Yeah, that was harsh when we analyse Sagna's career on the whole. This season he had some good games here and there (and an excellent game as CB when needed) but yesterday it was clear he didn't give a fuck. I didn't see him stick a foot out to block any cross, except one last ditch tackle in the 2nd half. But to me it was clear he was just going through the motions. Must be thinking of PSG surely, as he didn't renew a contract and looks unlikely to.

But it saddens me to admit that is that Jonney is right about one thing: amongst our ranks there's always at least one player fucking things up and costing us on big occasions. Amongst the top tier clubs in the Premier League, it looks like it happens way more often with Arsenal.

On big matches some of these guys bottle it, simple as that. It's either Szczesny + Koscielny, Fabianski, Diaby, Ramsey, Sagna, or Gibbs... and players we had such as Silvestre, Denilson, Bendtner.... think about it, these guys have always find a way, there's always the propensity to fuck things up in the most spectacular ways.

The ability this Arsenal team has to self destruct is baffling.

Yesterday was further proof of this - soon after Ramsey failed to pick out a wide open Walcott to his right (Podolski could have crossed it too), Sagna did what he did.

There's something ingrained in the culture of this club that is allowing these things to go on. We know we aren't as ruthless as we'd like to be and I for one can't imagine Man United gifting that goal like we did.

I think there's truth to what Jonney says too about Wenger being too nice. It's time to be ruthless with these guys, they earn more money in 1 season than most people will ever earn in their lifetime. Playtime is over, these things shouldn't be tolerated at a club like Arsenal.
Sagna illustrates it, look at him, an experienced France international.
We have a team of grown up, experienced men, playing like school boys.

Well said. Exactly what i was talking about

 

[Rantboy]

He used our most experienced right back in a big game, most managers would have done the same. He hasn't been playing well this season, but in big games like this then experience is usually a big factor.

Carl is playing well when he plays, but he is still young. Would you like Carl as our first choice right back next season and get another player as back up for him? Or would you have a more experienced right back in front of Carl next season? (If Sagna leaves). It would be interesting to know.




He is a fumbling nervous wreck when he goes forward? it just doesn't make sense and I don't agree with it. He is ok and assured up until the half way line and then falls apart after it? it just really doesn't make sense what you are saying.

Ramsey has had some very assured games recently and is playing well, I have seen him make really good passes forward and be involved in good build up attacking play.

You can point out the handful of bad decisions he makes and go crazy about them, but I know he isn't as bad as you are making out on that front.

I've said before that I don't think Arshavin was as bad as people made out, but when he didn't play well, he was missing from the team and it was like having 10 men on the field. With Ramsey he is always fighting and getting stuck in and recently playing very well, so I do think he justifies a start more than Arshavin did in the last couple of seasons.



In my eyes both were monumental fuck ups because they both led to goals. Van Persie losing it was unexpected for his team mates and left them exposed and made it much easier for the counter, which led to the goal.

I might if I have time later and do a little search for bad mistakes that led to goals from Man United/Man City/Chelsea teams this season, I'm sure I could find quite a few. But the truth is I probably wont be bothered



Alex Ferguson has stuck with Evra even though a lot of what I have read from fans shows that they are losing faith with him, but he is still played. Similar situation as Sagna. He plays Scholes and Giggs in certain situations where it has been detrimental to the team. All managers make these decisions and they suffer from them.

Again he shipped out Santos, dropped Szcz and Vermaelen the Captain. It may have been true a season or so ago, but you are harping on about it still when he is obviously showing signs that he has changed and moving on. This is what I was saying with people still using stuff to beat Wenger/Arsenal with even though they have shown over the last couple of seasons that they have changed and are changing things.




The games against Milan and Bayern we got beaten in the first legs by much better teams. The second legs they relaxed and we benefited from that, but we were no match really at the time for either of them really on one off games, the damage of what both of those teams could do to us were already done.

The Birmingham game was just shit, that is true.

What jokes do I make about it all? Some things I am a bit light hearted because I like to enjoy football, we are in a fight for 4th its exciting, rather than piss and moan about it all, I would rather enjoy what is put in front of me.

I just do not see the point of supporting a club if you are moaning about them all of the time.



Sorry about Park, I did misread I thought you said them combined. We didn't play to Chamakhs strengths and it also seems that West Ham aren't either. We were playing exactly the same way before Van Persie came back and he was playing well and scoring, so I wouldn't blame Arsenal as much as the players mentality, much like Arshavin.

I think our scouts go on more than just an interview with a former boss, I just think you simplify things way to much. He had a good handful of games when he first started with us and everybody was pretty excited about Santos to begin with, but he didn't turn out to be that player.



I do think you are being over the top. All of your posts imply how bad the decisions of Wenger are, critcising all of the way. You even go on about it in the last paragraphs of this post

For every one of those players you have mentioned I can mention much more that have been successful, I don't think the failure rate is any different if you compare it to any other teams.

8 years is more than I expected for us not to be competing for the league/other comps, but I understand why we have been in the situation we are in and I think we can benefit from being patient in the next few years, hopefully starting from this summer as the financial shackles seem to be finally broken.

Again the reality is that we are up against the biggest club in the world and the two richest clubs in the world to win stuff in England. We continue to get into the champs league and in the top four which although is not a trophy is a big accomplishment imo.

But of course it's not enough, I want to win things and I think it will come. But my main thing is to enjoy watching football, as I have said I just do not see the point in supporting your club if you are just moaning and being unhappy all of the time.

I think Arsenal/Wenger over the last couple of seasons have been righting all of the wrongs slowly but surely. But people are failing to recognise this and keep going on about things and exaggerating things that just do not help the situation at all.

Anyway I hope we get 4th and I hope we spend a good deal of money in the summer and can win something next season.

Carl vs Sagna, I know it would be odd to give Carl the nod out of the blue for such a big match (and if he played badly, it would draw criticism). On the other hand, I say honestly I would prefer to see Carl playing as our first choice RB this season. He should've been playing there for a while now IMO. The boy is unusually solid in defence for such a young player and his overlapping and crosses were looking really promising.
On that note, I'd prefer to sell Sagna for silly money to the oil moguls at PSG (they need a RB too, theirs is appalling).
And sign another young RB to be in the same level of contention as Jenkinson. This would make for good competition and fair treatment to both. It would probably take the best out of them.

Now, on to Ramsey. You don't see any sense in what I said? I think he's a fine player who puts in his shift in midfield, recovers many loose balls and pass it aside, keep the team ticking. But when he goes forward, do you want any more evidence than I already gave you that he just bottles it? It's one-on-ones with the keeper and he doesn't even put it on target! When making a decisive pass, the final ball to a striker, he comes short too. Just keep your eyes peeled for that when he ventures forward.

Anyways, as you said it, and I agree: he is not really suited to be spearheading our midfield to set up goals or score. That is plain to see, yet Wenger had been playing him as a right winger. This pissed me off big time. There's no way to defend this particular Wenger experiment no matter what twist you put on it.

As for the CL games, well you say those teams were miles apart from us, but I don't think they were that much superior. This year, ok maybe Bayern are in a whole different level. But Milan last year they were not that superior. And especially not 4-0 superior. But in that 1st leg game I remember our team was all over the place. Vermaelen was slippery as hell and we gifted 2 or 3 goals we shouldn't have.

And then in the 2nd leg the team played without any handbrakes on. It's easier to play when you're the underdog and has got nothing to lose. And we saw that night a whole other potential - I was in the stadium that night. Everyone just knew this team could perform so much better.

I still think they struggle to cope with the pressure of the occasion.

I don't enjoy all the criticising and moaning about bloody football - but I cannot refrain from doing so when I see a pattern of bad things that prevent us from winning something and we don't really see many of these things changed.
Arsenal was more used to win stuff before, but now there's some sort of aura hanging above the club that doesn't make us look like a winning team.

The 'jokes' about winning mentality is just the way that you dismiss it as not being an issue at all, mentioning it ironically among other 'exaggerations':

Our players have concentration problems, there is something fundamentally wrong with the way our team is being trained, when will we ever get experienced, ready made players playing for us? Wenger has a long track record of hampering/destroying promising players careers, Ramsey is a nervous wreck, when will Arsenal be ruthless?! Why don't Arsenal spend any money?! etc etc

Some things here are unfair exaggerations, such as the ready made players bit and Wenger destroying careers, etc.
But I'm a firm believer that there's indeed something missing in the way these guys are trained, and I ain't joking.
I don't think Arsenal's team work rate is up there with the best. In fact we'd have much to learn from Borussia Dortmund.

My posts aren't entirely aimed at Wenger. In the end of my post, for instance, it's a criticism to the board. The helm of the club.

Anyway, things will come to a head very soon if nothing changes. And if Wenger leaves to PSG and get a heap of cash available to work with, then I think it would be a killer blow to this current board. I think people are so pissed off with Kroenke's people that many might even turn to Uzmanov if things go really bad.

We are hoping for that CL spot mate. You are conformed most of the time and optimistic, and I moan and complain a lot about the things I don't agree right now. But in the end we're all hoping for the 4th spot. It would be a pretty shitty state of affairs if we didn't get it. And it 's far from done let's face it - all the 3 teams we're facing have a lot to play for.

 

[BobbyBox]

Carl vs Sagna, I know it would be odd to give Carl the nod out of the blue for such a big match (and if he played badly, it would draw criticism). On the other hand, I say honestly I would prefer to see Carl playing as our first choice RB this season. He should've been playing there for a while now IMO. The boy is unusually solid in defence for such a young player and his overlapping and crosses were looking really promising.
On that note, I'd prefer to sell Sagna for silly money to the oil moguls at PSG (they need a RB too, theirs is appalling).
And sign another young RB to be in the same level of contention as Jenkinson. This would make for good competition and fair treatment to both. It would probably take the best out of them.

That is a surprise, seeing as most young players can have good games/seasons one season and then go off the boil the next as they are still learning the game. I can think of Szcz and The Ox recently where this has happened. It would be a risk and seeing as you want us to win things next season, shouldn't we really have an experienced player in all positions?

It is yet to be seen how he would last a season of playing regular week in week out football.

But I would really love to see Carl play more often, he has been great when he has played for us on the most part. But he too has made some big mistakes this season, maybe more than Sagna, it is just for his age he has played some very good games, so it makes him stand out. Sagna on the other hand we are used to him playing so well, when he makes mistakes it is magnified a bit more.

But mistake wise I think they might be pretty similar this season imo.

I don't think we will get silly money for Sagna either based on this season.

Now, on to Ramsey. You don't see any sense in what I said? I think he's a fine player who puts in his shift in midfield, recovers many loose balls and pass it aside, keep the team ticking. But when he goes forward, do you want any more evidence than I already gave you that he just bottles it? It's one-on-ones with the keeper and he doesn't even put it on target! When making a decisive pass, the final ball to a striker, he comes short too. Just keep your eyes peeled for that when he ventures forward.

Anyways, as you said it, and I agree: he is not really suited to be spearheading our midfield to set up goals or score. That is plain to see, yet Wenger had been playing him as a right winger. This pissed me off big time. There's no way to defend this particular Wenger experiment no matter what twist you put on it.

Most good strikers roughly would have a success rate of shooting to scoring ratio of about 3/1 maybe quite a bit more actually. But you expect a midfielder to put away the only two chances he has had? What does getting it on target do if it is saved, it is still a miss. He could shoot it straight at the goalkeeper and get his shots on target stat to 100% or he can try and beat the keeper by putting it either side, where he may miss (Because he isn't a striker), both times he doesn't score, but just because he got them on target means he is super shit going forward and is a nervous wreck? the same with passes and assists.

Here to see how easy it is to highlight the handful of mistakes he has made by not getting a couple of shots on target and not playing the correct pass, I raise you some youtube videos of him scoring and making some pretty nice intelligent assists in the top half of the field.

YouTube - Aaron Ramsey - Top 10 Assists

YouTube - Aaron Ramsey

I don't really like the montages as you can do it for any player, but it is just as silly as you highlighting the handful of missed goalscoring chances and wrong passes.

And why do you keep going on about Ramsey being in the wide attacking role?! Wenger tried it and saw it wasn't working and stopped it!!! for god sake! You sound like a broken record. Why didn't he play Arshavin, why is he putting Ramsey on the Wing etc etc

As for the CL games, well you say those teams were miles apart from us, but I don't think they were that much superior. This year, ok maybe Bayern are in a whole different level. But Milan last year they were not that superior. And especially not 4-0 superior. But in that 1st leg game I remember our team was all over the place. Vermaelen was slippery as hell and we gifted 2 or 3 goals we shouldn't have.

And then in the 2nd leg the team played without any handbrakes on. It's easier to play when you're the underdog and has got nothing to lose. And we saw that night a whole other potential - I was in the stadium that night. Everyone just knew this team could perform so much better.

I still think they struggle to cope with the pressure of the occasion.

Out of the two teams Bayern are a MUCH better team than us, there is no questioning it at all, if they would have one 1-0 in the first leg we would have seen a different Bayern in the second and they would have beaten us, there is no doubt in my mind.

Against Milan, Ibrahimovic/Robinho taught us a lesson and they outplayed us. I think they were the Italian champions the year before? and I think were much better than us. Again if they won 1-0 in the first leg I am pretty sure that they would have beaten us in the second leg.

I do agree that the team can perform better, but I also think our team isn't as good as some teams and losing against a much better team is not that bad. But I agree it is very frustrating. We need a stronger team and squad that I hope will get addressed this year and then we can be up to matching those teams imo.

I don't enjoy all the criticising and moaning about bloody football - but I cannot refrain from doing so when I see a pattern of bad things that prevent us from winning something and we don't really see many of these things changed.
Arsenal was more used to win stuff before, but now there's some sort of aura hanging above the club that doesn't make us look like a winning team.

The 'jokes' about winning mentality is just the way that you dismiss it as not being an issue at all, mentioning it ironically among other 'exaggerations':

Do I make jokes about the winning mentality? I think it is an issue, I just think it is not that big, I think our biggest problem with not winning is that our team isn't good enough, that is not about mentality, it is about personnel and getting the right people on board, which we are slowly doing.

I see a lot changed over the last two seasons. We are spending money, we are getting in more experienced players, We have a good core of young British players, Wenger has shown that he is being more ruthless.

The things I would like changed are personnel wise, we need the big strong DM and a top quality striker. These should be our main buys in the summer, along with a couple more a goalkeeper and another defender would be nice. Also I would like another top quality wide forward if we are sticking with the 433.

But I think things are definitely changing and with the financing looking free to spend etc then I think we can capitalise on the last 8 frustrating years.

Some things here are unfair exaggerations, such as the ready made players bit and Wenger destroying careers, etc.
But I'm a firm believer that there's indeed something missing in the way these guys are trained, and I ain't joking.
I don't think Arsenal's team work rate is up there with the best. In fact we'd have much to learn from Borussia Dortmund.

My posts aren't entirely aimed at Wenger. In the end of my post, for instance, it's a criticism to the board. The helm of the club.

Everyone has much to learn from Dortmund, Bayern, Man United, Barcelona etc not just Arsenal. 99% of world football teams can learn from these teams. Getting upset that they are not at this level is ok, but to constantly go on about it is just really annoying.

Anyway, things will come to a head very soon if nothing changes. And if Wenger leaves to PSG and get a heap of cash available to work with, then I think it would be a killer blow to this current board. I think people are so pissed off with Kroenke's people that many might even turn to Uzmanov if things go really bad.

We are hoping for that CL spot mate. You are conformed most of the time and optimistic, and I moan and complain a lot about the things I don't agree right now. But in the end we're all hoping for the 4th spot. It would be a pretty shitty state of affairs if we didn't get it. And it 's far from done let's face it - all the 3 teams we're facing have a lot to play for.

What do you mean by conformed? I don't get that comment?

I know it's far from done and to be honest I hope we can get 4th (Of Course), but it is on a knife edge, we need spurs to lose or draw against Chelsea, if that doesn't happen we are screwed. We also need to win our next 3 games, which will be hard, but we are capable of doing so.

Anyway these long posts are tiring me out

 

[Rantboy]

About Sagna we will find out during the summer. If his performances are anything to go by, I'd say his mind is set to play for PSG. If this is the case, which it seems to be, then I'd rather have a committed player like Carl any day of the week.
I think he has been excellent when we needed him and dare I say he defended better than Sagna. If he was playing regularly, we would have seen much improvement by now.

I'm not a fan of such compilation videos either. It's that kind of thing, anyone can look good on a DVD compilation
But I watched that. Well, there is some nice stuff there spanning the past 5 seasons. I'd be surprised if you couldn't put together 10 assists in 5 seasons though.

I keep going on about Ramsey being played on the wing because it wasn't a thing of necessity. We had fit players for that position, so it just comes to show that Wenger was trying to find a place (any place) for him in the team. Thus, favouring him over other players.

But maybe this is in Wenger's nature. He feels he owes the players who got badly injured while defending Arsenal. He has lots of goodwill and patience with Diaby too, as we all know.

Anyway, we all could find compilation videos for all sorts of purposes and to prove different points. Like this for instance:
YouTube - Aaron Ramsey - How to Save a Life

But you know a footballer can't cut it as an offensive asset when you see something like this:
YouTube - Aaron Ramsey... Seriously?

Anyway, I better just drop it before people think I have a personal problem with Ramsey, which isn't the case.

When I say you are conformed I don't know if I used the right word in English. I'm talking about conformism. You habitually conform and accepts without criticism most things the Arsenal board throw at us. You even tried to defend the ticket pricing policy!

It's all fine being optimistic and get behind the club no matter what, and I respect you for that. I just think you go overboard.

When you say you had no doubt in your mind that Bayern would have beaten us in the 2nd leg (if the margin from the 1st wasn't so big) it strikes me as a person conforming to lack of ambition.
I know Bayern are much stronger and a much more together team than Arsenal now, but I still expect my team to surprise me. And I expect Arsenal to get out of this '4th spot trophy' mentality and have a proper go at titles again.

Winning mentality start with fans. If we fully expect stronger opposition to come and kick our ass then it's the beginning of the end. No ambition anymore.
I take into account that Arsenal doesn't have the strongest group of players right now, and these opponents have more investment. But even if the opposition is stronger, I still expect Arsenal to give them a torrid time and make them work really hard for the win. But this is no longer happening lately.

The thing about winning mentality and lack of concentration from players, I think I didn't expressed myself right. It's not that you're joking about it, but you're putting those things together in the bundle of things that you disagree or don't take seriously.

The club's fate seems to be on the knife's edge indeed. If we don't get 4th I feel for the worst. With all this talk of Wenger leaving, it would be catastrophic.

As we speak, I already see a more and more fans turning to Uzmanov, hoping he takes over. Or if these fans had this opinion before, they're just becoming more vocal about it.

 

[Sabatasso]

I raise you some youtube videos of him scoring and making some pretty nice intelligent assists in the top half of the field.

I have nothing for or against Ramsey, but there are evidence to support him being a complete waste offensively and a quite competent offensive player. The same evidence can be presented about Messi with a compilation. Anyway, from what I've seen from Ramsey he's neither an intelligent or stupid football player, he's average which makes him do mistakes and complete misses just as frequently as brilliancy. He's most likely average in the "football intellect" department which makes "wrong choices" just as likely as "good choices". He is quite decent overall, but he will most likely never become a "World Class" footballer.

It is very hard to make a footballer "smarter" with the ball, because it also require a "smart" teammate to make the correct "smart" runs in order for that "smart" pass to be made frequently enough to make it a deliberate "smart" pass. Good off the ball movement by forwards often create the illusion of brilliant midfielders as well, but in reality any decent midfielder would look like a classy passer if the forwards are clever enough. Andrea Pirlo is an example where the passer is often smarter than the forwards he's passing to, but they are few and far between. The link between a really smart striker and a passer like Pirlo, who's extremely precise and intelligent in his play, would be a lethal combination on par with Barcelona's recent "unbeatable" team. Pirlo+Messi or Pirlo+Higuaín would most likely be able to penetrate any defense in the world while they were parking the bus.

 

[BobbyBox]

About Sagna we will find out during the summer. If his performances are anything to go by, I'd say his mind is set to play for PSG. If this is the case, which it seems to be, then I'd rather have a committed player like Carl any day of the week.
I think he has been excellent when we needed him and dare I say he defended better than Sagna. If he was playing regularly, we would have seen much improvement by now.

Or if he played regularly he could have been overused for a young player and deteriorated as the season went along. One of the reasons he played well is because he is being played intermittently? who knows?

I'm not a fan of such compilation videos either. It's that kind of thing, anyone can look good on a DVD compilation
But I watched that. Well, there is some nice stuff there spanning the past 5 seasons. I'd be surprised if you couldn't put together 10 assists in 5 seasons though.

I keep going on about Ramsey being played on the wing because it wasn't a thing of necessity. We had fit players for that position, so it just comes to show that Wenger was trying to find a place (any place) for him in the team. Thus, favouring him over other players.

But maybe this is in Wenger's nature. He feels he owes the players who got badly injured while defending Arsenal. He has lots of goodwill and patience with Diaby too, as we all know.

Anyway, we all could find compilation videos for all sorts of purposes and to prove different points. Like this for instance:

But don't you see your simplistic view of Ramsey attacking wise, is in a way a crappy youtube montage, putting together the 3-4 things he has done wrong in the season and going crazy about them. This was my whole point, so there was no need to show the shit side of what he has done, because that is what I was pointing out.

But you know a footballer can't cut it as an offensive asset when you see something like this:

Again a ridiculous comment to make, were any of these players good offensively?

Ronaldo

YouTube - Cristiano Ronaldo does a "torres" (Open goal miss) unblieveable!

Van Persie

YouTube - Van Persie Misses Open Goal!!!!!

Henry (misses 5 and 2)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&v=4y_FDPmcJY0&feature=endscreen


I could go on forever.

Anyway, I better just drop it before people think I have a personal problem with Ramsey, which isn't the case.

When I say you are conformed I don't know if I used the right word in English. I'm talking about conformism. You habitually conform and accepts without criticism most things the Arsenal board throw at us. You even tried to defend the ticket pricing policy!

To be honest I think the majority of the fans think like you, so i don't know if I am that much of a conformist.

If you have read anything I have written over the many conversations, you can see that I have criticised the team on many occasions, also Wenger and the board. But I also can see when they are changing things and don't keep mentioning things that were maybe true a couple of seasons ago.

Again it does my head in, the ticket pricing thing I said many times over that it isn't right to charge the most expensive ticket, which for some reason you couldn't get into your head. My main complaint was that it wasn't as black and white as you were making it out to be. For you we haven't won anything for 8 years so our pricing should be totally determined on that. I was just pointing out other reasons why the ticket prices might be high. Like our new stadium, the fact we are based in London etc etc.

But the way you come back with arguments against me is exactly the same way you argue against Arsenal/Wenger you choose the bits you are interested in highlighting and ignore the other things people are actually doing/saying. It is part of you over exaggerating things and on the same lines simplifying things to prove a point.

It's all fine being optimistic and get behind the club no matter what, and I respect you for that. I just think you go overboard.

If you actually read my posts word for word you can see I am not going overboard. I state what is wrong, I don't exaggerate or get carried away and I also argue against when people make sweeping statements about Wenger/Arsenal that I don't think is true. I would hardly call that going overboard?

When you say you had no doubt in your mind that Bayern would have beaten us in the 2nd leg (if the margin from the 1st wasn't so big) it strikes me as a person conforming to lack of ambition.
I know Bayern are much stronger and a much more together team than Arsenal now, but I still expect my team to surprise me. And I expect Arsenal to get out of this '4th spot trophy' mentality and have a proper go at titles again.

Winning mentality start with fans. If we fully expect stronger opposition to come and kick our ass then it's the beginning of the end. No ambition anymore.
I take into account that Arsenal doesn't have the strongest group of players right now, and these opponents have more investment. But even if the opposition is stronger, I still expect Arsenal to give them a torrid time and make them work really hard for the win. But this is no longer happening lately.

Its not lack of ambition it is reality, if Bayern thought that the job wasn't already done, the same as Milan, then they wouldn't have played so shit in the second legs and would have been fully concentrated and up for those games. With their better teams they would have beaten us in those different circumstances. Its reality, of course Arsenal could beat both if they played really really well, but the chances of that are slim with this team, we need better players in some positions and a wider squad to deal with a season of football.

I can be disappointed after games against better teams, if you read my posts you can see that. But if it is a better team I don't keep coming back in hear pissing and moaning at how Wenger did this and hasn't done that blah blah blah everytime we lose. We got beaten by a better team, accept it and hope that our team learn from it and Wenger and he makes changes to the team to make sure we have a chance next time and can win.

I really don't see the need for you and Jonney to keep coming back in hear after every loss and going over the same stuff over and over again like a broken record.

Like mentioning Arshavin, or why Ramsey was played as a forward for a few games, or why Gervinho was in the centre for a few games etc etc etc etc etc

The thing about winning mentality and lack of concentration from players, I think I didn't expressed myself right. It's not that you're joking about it, but you're putting those things together in the bundle of things that you disagree or don't take seriously.

The club's fate seems to be on the knife's edge indeed. If we don't get 4th I feel for the worst. With all this talk of Wenger leaving, it would be catastrophic.

As we speak, I already see a more and more fans turning to Uzmanov, hoping he takes over. Or if these fans had this opinion before, they're just becoming more vocal about it.

I take it all seriously that is why I have these long drawn out posts with you all of the time.

The majority of fans want to go to Usmanov anyway, I think it was evident last season as well. But it doesn't make them right. Do you really want that sleazy bastard controlling our club? he has tried to destabilise the club at key points throughout the season, I see he is doing it again today when the club needs to win the last 3 games, he did it when Van Persie was sold etc etc If he really cared about the club he wouldn't be trying to fuck up everything and every moment he can stick the boot in.

He wants the team to not get 4th as it increases his chances of getting control of the club. To me he seems like the kind of guy that would keep sacking managers all of the time and being the type of guy to force his signings on Arsenal.

I could be wrong, but the guy just smells of shit and at the moment I really don't want him having any say in the club.

But most fans see the money and that is all they want....even though it doesn't necessarily buy success.

 

[Rantboy]

I don't want that snidey bastard running the club either. I'm merely highlighting that the fans are increasing their support to him. And this is due entirely to the fact that Kroenke's side isn't exactly covering themselves in glory.
All the bad things we've been discussing are just ammunition for Uzmanov, but Silent Stan doesn't look like he's very concerned.

We shouldn't be going over old stuff over and over again for the sake of this forum, but I do remember back then you sort of dismissed my complaints about ticket pricing as an 'exaggeration' even though I had BBC and Guardian articles to back me up.
Anyways Like I said, I don't want to bang on the drums and be accused of being like a 'broken record'.

If I'm being a broken record at times it's because some problems aren't being addressed and they come back to haunt us every now and then.
The crazy Wenger experimentations for instance. Nevermind Arshavin, his Arsenal career is over now. But I see history repeating in the same way with Cazorla now. If Wenger insists with this we will waste a hell of a talent.

Hopefully, after today Wenger will give up once and for all on this possession oriented Barcelona emulation 433 system.
Today I'm hoping is the declaration of death of tikka takka football and the world gets over it.

Look at what Bayern did to Barcelona today after building an even bigger advantage in the 1st leg (4-0) and you will realise you should give more credit to Arsenal beating them 2-0 in Munich.

If Arsenal finds a way to play without the 'handbrakes on' as Wenger puts it, and plays with courage and in a more assured way, this team can play much better.

 

[Aboutreika18]

It's clear Ramsey has been a disappointment, whether that's because of his leg-break or not he's turned out to be another mentally weak technically gifted midget to add to Wenger's long list.

And Sagna's shit, I pointed this out earlier in the season, like us Brits forced to use the Royal Mail, it takes Bobby a long time to "get it".

 

[Rantboy]

I think the leg break was a major factor. I remember Ramsey being a more confident footballer back then. But I'm not sure I qualify him as technically gifted. I think his biggest asset has been his stamina this season, as his defensive work rate is very good now that we're already late in the season.

I gotta say I was never a big fan of Sagna. There, I said it!
I don't know if it's because I have a problem with fullbacks who can't cross or if it's just his weird yellow dread(ful) locks. I can't decide which's worse.

On another note, I'm amazed at the decline of Fabregas. Those of us who watched him in 2009-10 when he was captain at Arsenal and watch him now at Barcelona, he is just a shadow of the player he was!
Well him and Song went to collect some champions medals (not many, it seems) even if it meant them being bit part players. Look at how it helped them now...

 

[gerd]

Rentboy, they will become champions in La Liga...that is better than what Arsenal has done for years now...

You know i love Arsenal, but both Song and Fabregas have already done better than they ever achoeved with Arsenal in an horror season for Barcelona.

Makes one think, no ?

 

[BobbyBox]

It's clear Ramsey has been a disappointment, whether that's because of his leg-break or not he's turned out to be another mentally weak technically gifted midget to add to Wenger's long list.

And Sagna's shit, I pointed this out earlier in the season, like us Brits forced to use the Royal Mail, it takes Bobby a long time to "get it".

I don't think Ramsey is a disappointment, being played in a deeper central midfield role he plays well and has been one of our better players the last few games and he is young. I don't think he will be a world class player but I think he can be a good player for us.

Sagna isn't shit, he's been one of our better players over the last few seasons and most reliable, he is having a bad season this season for whatever reasons, but to say he is shit is just silly.

And anyway I haven't said he is playing well now, but most managers in big games play their most experienced players and he has had a shit season but he hasn't been playing shit in every game.

And I like the royal mail, most of the things I have expected from them have come in a timely manner

I don't want that snidey bastard running the club either. I'm merely highlighting that the fans are increasing their support to him. And this is due entirely to the fact that Kroenke's side isn't exactly covering themselves in glory.
All the bad things we've been discussing are just ammunition for Uzmanov, but Silent Stan doesn't look like he's very concerned.

We shouldn't be going over old stuff over and over again for the sake of this forum, but I do remember back then you sort of dismissed my complaints about ticket pricing as an 'exaggeration' even though I had BBC and Guardian articles to back me up.
Anyways Like I said, I don't want to bang on the drums and be accused of being like a 'broken record'.

I really don't get it, I am talking about exagerations now. I don't think I said you were exaggerating about tickets prices, as I said in my last post that you are referring to I was just arguing that there are many reasons why the ticket prices are high. The articles from he guardian etc said that the ticket prices were the most expensive again I never said they were not?! I don't know what is so hard to understand? You didn't understand me then and not even now when I explained it again? We have to leave this subject before my head explodes.

 

[Rantboy]

Rentboy, they will become champions in La Liga...that is better than what Arsenal has done for years now...

You know i love Arsenal, but both Song and Fabregas have already done better than they ever achoeved with Arsenal in an horror season for Barcelona.

Makes one think, no ?

I know that even in a bad season Barcelona are winning the league. But my point remains the same: does it make Song and Fabregas better players? Especially Song, who has been behind in the pecking order. Behind Busquets, Mascherano, and when Tito has to improvise a CB he's behind Mascherano there too.

As I said, they went there to collect champions medals. May look great on their CVs, but that doesn't mean they're developing as better players when they have to spend so much time on the bench. Do you really think they have become better players than they were at Arsenal? Or are they at least as good as they were?

I really don't get it, I am talking about exagerations now. I don't think I said you were exaggerating about tickets prices, as I said in my last post that you are referring to I was just arguing that there are many reasons why the ticket prices are high. The articles from he guardian etc said that the ticket prices were the most expensive again I never said they were not?! I don't know what is so hard to understand? You didn't understand me then and not even now when I explained it again? We have to leave this subject before my head explodes.

Yeah, I know you were giving some reasons (and some were absurd) for the ticket price being high, but I was talking about how you reacted before I presented the links to the BBC and Guardian stats.
Anyway, I agree we better leave it because I don't feel like going back so many pages trying to figure out who said what. Just... nevermind.

 

[BobbyBox]

I know that even in a bad season Barcelona are winning the league. But my point remains the same: does it make Song and Fabregas better players? Especially Song, who has been behind in the pecking order. Behind Busquets, Mascherano, and when Tito has to improvise a CB he's behind Mascherano there too.

As I said, they went there to collect champions medals. May look great on their CVs, but that doesn't mean they're developing as better players when they have to spend so much time on the bench. Do you really think they have become better players than they were at Arsenal? Or are they at least as good as they were?




Yeah, I know you were giving some reasons (and some were absurd) for the ticket price being high, but I was talking about how you reacted before I presented the links to the BBC and Guardian stats.
Anyway, I agree we better leave it because I don't feel like going back so many pages trying to figure out who said what. Just... nevermind.

I want you to show me where I said that we didn't have the highest ticket prices? really saying stuff like this makes me sound like an idiot and it winds me up.

I saw the articles and heard people mentioning it before you even said anything about it. let me put it in bold and see if it gets through I WAS NOT DENYING WE HAD THE HIGHEST TICKET PRICE!!!!!

Tell me what reasons were absurd as well? I really want to know?

I want to leave this, but what you are saying is wrong.

Your view was that we shouldn't have the highest ticket prices because we haven't won anything for many years. It's a fair point and one that I agreed with this is what you keep on ignoring for some reason and I really don't understand it?!

My points were that we are in London which adds a premium on buying property/land etc, also that we have built one of the most state of the art stadiums in Britain if not Europe etc this all has to be taken into account when a club charges ticket prices, like how a pint of beer up north costs less than it does in London etc etc

One of my other points was that we may have the most expensive seats, but we also have very reasonably priced seats as well and our expensive seats and season tickets have a few more extras involved.

Tell me out of all that what is absurd about what I said? please really, tell me?

You decided to ignore everything I was saying as If I was agreeing that we should have the highest ticket prices, when I never said this. I was explaining to you that there are other reasons why our ticket prices were high, other than your simplistic view of events.

anyway.......

 

[gerd]

I. Do you really think they have become better players than they were at Arsenal? Or are they at least as good as they were?

I don't know. Only they themselves will know that.
t's true that certainly Song hasn't played much. On the other hand one of the reasons Belgian football players usually give (particularly if the fear not to play much) is that they do develop because they can train every day with some of the best players in the world. This might be an excuse, but it also might be true.

Being a yout hcoach myself, i can see that some players can become better when training with very good players. Of course you can't compare kids with adult professional football players.

So my answer is: i tend to agre ewith you, but i'm not sure...i really don't know. I Do know one thing about Song: another 2 season like this one and he wnats to go to another club.