2010 FIFA World Cup

There doesnt seem much need to swap players around between matches as their fitness/energy bars do not reduce from game to game. I can understand this in the qualifiers as there are weeks/months between most gamesm but in the WC tournament players energy/fitness bars should at least decrease at times. Once again, this has not been implemented well by EA. Why dont they get fatigue and fitness?
 
nerf said:
Personally I don't like that primary press exists in the first place. There should be a jockey button and a tackle button, not a combined 'hold to win' button.
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Do you mean a jockey press button? As in, one that tracks the man on the ball (like L2+X now)? You could make R1 a primary press button, with X the standing tackle button.

I think there does need to be some degree of homing in on players - you simply can't judge such close encounters well from a distant camera and a 2D display. We'd struggle, so the vast majority of FIFA/PES players would fail completely and defences would be routinely overrun. Personally I don't think the homing should kick in until a few yards from the ball. There's also a lot of room for changing the ability of 90% of players to successfully recover and tackle you even when you are meant to have wrongfooted them.
 
What should change drastically is effectiveness of pressure and tackle, while they should increase vastly the coverage and ability to react of defenders, thus ensuring dribbling doesn't turn into a fest while defenders can't just shove the ball off you everytime they get near.
 
romagnoli said:
Do you mean a jockey press button? As in, one that tracks the man on the ball (like L2+X now)? You could make R1 a primary press button, with X the standing tackle button.
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Yes, like L2+X now. That way you still have your homing-in ability, but the actual act of timing and attempting your tackle should be under your own control rather than automatic.

The way it is now just completely encourages constant pressure. If you haven't got the ball you just hold X until you get it back. If tackling was more about timing, not only would that be more realistic but gamers would also think twice about diving in and that would hopefully make defending more cerebral. Time it wrong and you're liable to either be beaten by the dribble or give away a foul.

Make jockeying as straight-forward as holding one button, like you say, but separate standing tackle to another button press.

romagnoli said:
Personally I don't think the homing should kick in until a few yards from the ball. There's also a lot of room for changing the ability of 90% of players to successfully recover and tackle you even when you are meant to have wrongfooted them.
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The problem with making 'homing' distance-related is that there's no clear indicator for when you're inside/outside that distance, potentially causing frustrating occasions when the button press behaves unpredictably (you might think you're inside but be just outside, so nothing happens when you press the button).
 
WILDSTER180774 said:
There doesnt seem much need to swap players around between matches as their fitness/energy bars do not reduce from game to game. I can understand this in the qualifiers as there are weeks/months between most gamesm but in the WC tournament players energy/fitness bars should at least decrease at times. Once again, this has not been implemented well by EA. Why dont they get fatigue and fitness?
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Pretty sure Madden and NBA live get the Fatigue and stamina bar right so duuno what is happening with the FIFA team. If they are struggling with it why don't they hire somebody who has the skills to fix this.
 
nerf said:
Yes, like L2+X now. That way you still have your homing-in ability, but the actual act of timing and attempting your tackle should be under your own control rather than automatic.

The way it is now just completely encourages constant pressure. If you haven't got the ball you just hold X until you get it back. If tackling was more about timing, not only would that be more realistic but gamers would also think twice about diving in and that would hopefully make defending more cerebral. Time it wrong and you're liable to either be beaten by the dribble or give away a foul.

Make jockeying as straight-forward as holding one button, like you say, but separate standing tackle to another button press.
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I don't really see the need for a timing dependent tackle button though, if it's something as basic as just taking the ball off someone. Performing something like a lunging tackle where you hook a leg around a player or jab a leg out to just try and stop a player in their tracks, is one thing (in which case, couldn't the slide tackle button just be more context sensitive?). Making sure that the player your controlling goes in for the ball rather than just run comically past it (as happens to me sometimes when trying to win the ball without pressing X, and I consider myself pretty competent), is quite another.

It'd also make playing online practically impossible with the lag making it impossible to time a tackle.

I think we do need to stop pressuring being so effective in actually winning a tackle, and I do think timing should be a factor to some extent, but I think it's very easy to underestimate how important that locking on to the ball really is for all of us, as opposed to just noobs who hold it all the time.

The problem with making 'homing' distance-related is that there's no clear indicator for when you're inside/outside that distance, potentially causing frustrating occasions when the button press behaves unpredictably (you might think you're inside but be just outside, so nothing happens when you press the button).
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Only if the player defending, upon crossing that boundary, immediately releases the left stick and presses X, rather than continuing to press the left stick in a direction as I personally imagine 99% of players do.
 
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You wouldn't run comically past if you're using the jockey button to get close. That's the whole concept of jockeying in the first place.

I suppose what I'd like to achieve is to get people using the jockey as their 'default' button on defence, the one with which they track/close-down the opponent, rather than hammering the current 'charge and tackle' button.

You can see at the start of this video how jockeying changes the nature of defending:

YouTube - FIFA 10 Advanced Defending Tutorial (HD)

Quite apart from reducing the chaotic physicality, it's also a far more realistic way to defend.

I'd be willing to bet that a lot of gamers never use it. Probably because a) some aren't aware it exists, b) it requires two buttons rather than one, and c) presently there's really little-to-no advantage in using it over just holding X ftw.

I'd suggest putting the Jockey Press (L2+X) on one button, and make X an actual 'standing tackle attempt' button pretty much the same as the sliding tackle button already behaves (so yeah, maybe 'tackle' could be context sensitive). Obviously there would still be an amount of lock-on, just like any other interaction with the ball (heading for example), but holding it wouldn't auto-guide your player from twenty+ yards away like it currently does. You'd use Jockey Press for the closing-down part, and then choose when you want to attempt your standing tackle.
 
I jockey all the time. To a fault, occasionally. I wasn't talking about jockeying in those head-on winger vs fullback scenarios either. My point is that in situations where the ball is slightly loose due to a heavy touch from the opponent, just using the left stick to intercept the ball is not reliable because in the heat of the moment it's entirely possible to misdirect your player and end up not picking the ball up. I've done it a couple of times, particularly in Clubs online when the latency means you're aiming at where the ball was a split second ago rather than where it was on your screen when you pressed the direction. The point of the pressure button in those instances is to guide your player that short distance to pick the ball up. I think that use is entirely valid.

Similarly, if you are running alongside a player, you do not currently try and muscle the player off the ball just by using the left stick. If you try that then you can end up pushing too far towards the opponent and end up running behind him, leaving him running unopposed. You use the pressure button to put your weight into the opponent.

In these instances the pressure button is a necessity. A standing tackle button wouldn't cater for these possibilities. You can't really change what the left stick does in such situations without risking a lot of inadvertent side-effects - muscling a player can lead to fouls, so if running alongside someone instantly led to trying to shove them away then you'd be at risk of fouling when you just wanted to shepherd the player. Making pushing slightly towards the player on the ball a way of leaning into the player makes some sense, but if automated I could see it potentially adding to physicality problems, particularly when players of lesser levels might not have the precise analog control to avoid accidentally barging players they don't want to.

It's not that I entirely disagree with you - I've suggested similar in the past, hence I was ready with the R1 suggestion - but changing the defensive controls so drastically and against the grain of what football games have been doing for more than a decade now would have a lot of new problems that need to be pre-empted. We both want to stop X auto-guiding your player from twenty+ yards. For me, five (or so) is plenty for both the defender and the attacker to have room for manoeuvre, and if you are of the mindset of guiding your player for the previous 15 every time then you will still be pressing a direction when you arrive. As I said as well, the effectiveness of the pressure tackle itself would have to be reduced to stop all of the 10 players on the pitch from being able to pressure willy nilly.

Quite another problem which both our ideas would make a lot worse is accidentally passing the ball when we wanted to just tackle. It bothers me enough as it is!
 
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drekkard said:
So in your oppinion Rivaldo, Maradona, Stoichkov and Xavi are not professional enough because they can't shoot with both feet... interesting. If you're "going to be a pro", you maybe should learn more about this sport, fella.

Most of the best players I've seen playing at Barcelona and around Europe couldn't shoot properly with both feet. And 99'9% of them were, for sure, better than you.

Unless you talk about passing and dribbling. Things that I already stated most players do regularly with both feet.
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sorry dude you just used two really bad examples, diego and stoichkov could certainly shoot with both feet
 
jonneymendoza said:
fifa 08 to Euro 08 was a much larger difference than fifa 10 to world cup.

This game feels like a patch/DLC
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I disagree. The main reason Euro 08 was different from FIFA08 was response time and game speed IMO, other than that I'll even say that the difference is greater between FIFA10 and WC2010.

I'm loving the generic stadiums btw. Actually I even prefer them to most of the real ones. :)
 
Dusse said:
I disagree. The main reason Euro 08 was different from FIFA08 was response time and game speed IMO, other than that I'll even say that the difference is greater between FIFA10 and WC2010.

I'm loving the generic stadiums btw. Actually I even prefer them to most of the real ones. :)
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i disagree with your reasons. euro 08 had more animations added as well as a night and day difference between response times which is a major area of the game that changed.

Can you tell me what major difference there are in your opinion from fifa 10 and world cup because i cannot seem to find any in the "gameplay" element.

i had a go at my mates world cup game last weekend and played a few matches and still couldnt find any difference in the gameplay.
 
jonneymendoza said:
i disagree with your reasons. euro 08 had more animations added as well as a night and day difference between response times which is a major area of the game that changed.

Can you tell me what major difference there are in your opinion from fifa 10 and world cup because i cannot seem to find any in the "gameplay" element.

i had a go at my mates world cup game last weekend and played a few matches and still couldnt find any difference in the gameplay.
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Some of the main gameplay ones that jump out for me:-

-You can dribble past players effectively using just the left stick
-Player momentum is better preserved
-Keepers are far, far harder to lob
-Player individuality is greatly increased for dribbling
-Shooting is far more satisfying
-Passing physics feel very convincing and organic
-Physicality is marginally improved
-The balancing of the free kick system has been greatly improved
-Crossing and heading is more effective

Some of these make a huge difference, particularly if you're playing for more than a few games. The jump from FIFA 08 to Euro 08 may have been more obvious but that's because there was a lot more wrong with FIFA 08 that could be changed quickly. FIFA 10 was a game that was extremely good in some aspects but fundamentally flawed in others. Most of the problems it had were far deeper rooted than simply speeding the gameplay up - the defence needs an overhaul rather than a tweak, for example.
 
WILDSTER180774 said:
There doesnt seem much need to swap players around between matches as their fitness/energy bars do not reduce from game to game. I can understand this in the qualifiers as there are weeks/months between most gamesm but in the WC tournament players energy/fitness bars should at least decrease at times. Once again, this has not been implemented well by EA. Why dont they get fatigue and fitness?
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This is one of my bugbears with the series. Fitness and conditioning is totally unaffected by the amount of games they've played/running they do on the pitch. FIFA WC seems to have implemented the form of players quite well, hopefully in FIFA 11 they will have sorted fitness/energy alongside form.

drekkard said:
What should change drastically is effectiveness of pressure and tackle, while they should increase vastly the coverage and ability to react of defenders, thus ensuring dribbling doesn't turn into a fest while defenders can't just shove the ball off you everytime they get near.
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nerf said:
Yes, like L2+X now. That way you still have your homing-in ability, but the actual act of timing and attempting your tackle should be under your own control rather than automatic.

The way it is now just completely encourages constant pressure. If you haven't got the ball you just hold X until you get it back. If tackling was more about timing, not only would that be more realistic but gamers would also think twice about diving in and that would hopefully make defending more cerebral. Time it wrong and you're liable to either be beaten by the dribble or give away a foul.

Make jockeying as straight-forward as holding one button, like you say, but separate standing tackle to another button press.
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Now this I completely agree with. I hate the tackling in FIFA, there's no skill to it at all. You just hold X until you get the ball back, which often means far too much barging and tripping players off the ball. The game turns into a constant charge fest when defending.

In FIFA WC they seem to have made it harder to use double pressure, which is a positive in my eyes as it prevents players just sandwiching the opposition at every opportunity and opens the play up a little for the attacking side by reducing the pressure a little. What they should do now is reduce the effectiveness of just holding X until you get the ball back. The game should force you to time your tackles appropriately, or you'll give a free kick away (like PES 5).
 
gomito#10 said:
sorry dude you just used two really bad examples, diego and stoichkov could certainly shoot with both feet
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Nope, stoichkov would use his left 90% of the time, and Maradona used his left practically all the time, at least in all the matches I watched from him.
 
I am the one who started the argument about weak feet.

I just said most players wouldn't be able to shoot easily with their weak foot from distance such amusing screamers like in fifawc10.

Passing crossing and shooting from distance with the ball in movements are all very different things. Being able to do all 3 of them with your weak foot is really rare.

I don't recall maradona scoring from outside the box with his right foot. Inside the box yes a few time.

Still i just wanted to say that in pes you gotta think twice before trying to use a player's weak foot, in fifa there seems to be not much difference. I 'd like to see more individuality on this aspect as in greatly improves the strategical side of the game, in pes when i defend i alwasy try to cover the strong side of a player so that he will be forced to shoot with his weak foot.

Things like this make the game great and deep!
 
romagnoli said:
We both want to stop X auto-guiding your player from twenty+ yards. For me, five (or so) is plenty for both the defender and the attacker to have room for manoeuvre
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While I think that would be an improvement over the current system, I don't think it would change a great deal. Tackling would still be a case of charging at the opponent while holding X, even if you have to left-stick your way towards him beforehand. Those last five or so yards are still about the aggressive, button-mashing, physical approach.

However it is achieved, at an abstract level I'd like jockeying to become the primary approach of the defender. The concept of 'closing down' and the concept of 'tackling' need to be separated, because presently in FIFA they are effectively the same.
 
mjsmith2k said:
Now this I completely agree with. I hate the tackling in FIFA, there's no skill to it at all. You just hold X until you get the ball back, which often means far too much barging and tripping players off the ball. The game turns into a constant charge fest when defending.

In FIFA WC they seem to have made it harder to use double pressure, which is a positive in my eyes as it prevents players just sandwiching the opposition at every opportunity and opens the play up a little for the attacking side by reducing the pressure a little. What they should do now is reduce the effectiveness of just holding X until you get the ball back. The game should force you to time your tackles appropriately, or you'll give a free kick away (like PES 5).
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Totally agree. I've made the same point about PES5 before, in that while the refs were frustratingly fussy, it did at least make defending an art, where timing and positioning were more important than just simply mashing the X button.

I think the constant double pressing by the CPU is done to cover-up the poor tactical AI that can not hold a proper defensive line, mark players, track-back etc......
 
nerf said:
While I think that would be an improvement over the current system, I don't think it would change a great deal. Tackling would still be a case of charging at the opponent while holding X, even if you have to left-stick your way towards him beforehand. Those last five or so yards are still about the aggressive, button-mashing, physical approach.

However it is achieved, at an abstract level I'd like jockeying to become the primary approach of the defender. The concept of 'closing down' and the concept of 'tackling' need to be separated, because presently in FIFA they are effectively the same.
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In which case you would want the same for PES, which uses the same tackling system? People have mentioned PES 5 as an example of a game that required timing to tackle but ultimately that was using the exact same control scheme, which proves that it isn't the control scheme that is wrong.

I really do think changing second press to a jockey would fix 70% of the problem. Primary pressing needs to be toned down but there's a lot more to that than the primary press itself - it's the lack of physicality from the ballholder and the clairvoyance of the pressed that are far bigger culprits.
 
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romagnoli said:
In which case you would want the same for PES, which uses the same tackling system? People have mentioned PES 5 as an example of a game that required timing to tackle but ultimately that was using the exact same control scheme, which proves that it isn't the control scheme that is wrong.
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I think it's fair to say that the pressure button was not as effective in PES5 as it has been in next-gen Fifa. Also, the physicality in PES5 was much more subtle and more balanced, so it was easier to keep the ball and hold off someone mashing the pressure buttons. In Fifa it's too far in favour of the defending player so you nearly always get knocked off the ball.
 
Exactly what I hoped someone would point out. It was the balance of the game. NOT the control scheme. You could leave the controls completely untouched and still create a much more defensively deep football game. Improving the left stick dribbling was a big step in the right direction. The next step would be to also give the attacker the ability to shield the ball while on the move, so that defenders have to shepherd players out of danger, not just push them over.
 
I really like the idea of "X" becoming Jockey, with a X + L2 (or something) becoming a stick a foot out(without moving). I think something so simple would enhance the defending so much.

Then the hard work would kick in for EA as you'd get passed around for fun with the current passing ping pong system but if they could add that easy change on focus on balancing the passing it would be a huge step forward.
 
Jockey is currently too far away from a player for you to then just press a button to tackle. I suggested to EA that maybe you should be able to use your left stick at the same time as the jockey press to modify it, e.g to block a passing path or force a player out wide.

There's still no system for leaning into a player without a press button.
 
Pes5 had a great system, but all those aracade style teen agers complained about the ref. The problem wasn't the ref but it was timing correctly yuot tackles.
 
romagnoli said:
Exactly what I hoped someone would point out. It was the balance of the game. NOT the control scheme. You could leave the controls completely untouched and still create a much more defensively deep football game. Improving the left stick dribbling was a big step in the right direction. The next step would be to also give the attacker the ability to shield the ball while on the move, so that defenders have to shepherd players out of danger, not just push them over.
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Exactly my thoughts since the first notable Fifa (08). Add to this that players should be more prone to mistakes when trapping and, specially, while carrying the ball. If low skilled attackers were prone to miscarry the ball, touch it too far, etc... defending would be a lot more based on positioning as it is in real life.
 
Another thing people take for granted drek. Imprecise attacking. The AI in PES would struggle if faced with a relentless ping pong attack where all players control the ball like Dennis Bergkamp. Making the game less ruthlessly precise in attack would do wonders for the defence. Fix the fullbacks running away and stop defenders backing off of strikers in the box (does anyone really see FIFA leaving these in now that most of their tech is in place?) and FIFA's defenders are actually pretty good once behind the ball.
 
There was some talk on the oficial boards about a DLC with the 3 non licensed WC teams(Chile, Honduras, North Korea) kits. I think that will come, the issue here was that it seems EA didnt get those kits in time to put it in the disc.
 
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