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eFootball PES 2021 Discussion Thread (CONSOLES)

martyl2 said:
Game just looks so much more alive than PES 20 :WORSHIP:
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I think so to in many different ways..As someone who’s played 20 to death(vanilla).For me it’s going to be a nice upgrade.Animations are smoother as are all the transitions,plus there’s less of the stop start in the transitions.Pes20 imo is a beautiful thing in motion epsecially vanilla.And there’s so much subtlety to Manual shooting..

What was interesting from the vid was how well the game played on pa1 and that the cpu on superstar just wasn’t parking the bus..I don’t give away alot of goals away on 20,even on superstar.

Its a funny one because I never found pes20 frustrating to play..The cpu AI could be a lot more varied but overall I felt and feel I could and can be solid at the back,even on superstar..A lot of the cpu exploits could be contained..Just a game of patience,not rushing in on the ball carrier all the time and just waiting for those small movements and moments.Holding the ball more and playing clever can draw in so many more fouls.

The patches improved certain things but upset the balance and of course brought a lot of the scripting back in..Folk will testify how much more balanced the game was online before the updates..

Konami have fallen into the habit of having a less scripted more balanced game at the demo,alpha and launch stage and then coming out with patches on day one that bring these heavily scripted momentum shifts that just destroy the game outside of exhibition..The league modes and master league are just ruined by the super heavy scripting(or cheating hot fixes)Everything just becomes less responsive and heavy).It reminds me of sega rally on the Saturn 2 player..Boosting the losing players speed and overall ability so they can catch up.Its just a very lazy way to make the game artificially difficult..When in reality the gameplay itself will create those moments.User generated and not contrived by the cpu...The collision system also just went to pot after the first update.

If anyone’s got the disk i would recommend reverting it back and playing for a few days to see the difference..I genuinely think in years to come folk will look back at the base game(version 1.00.00)..and it will get the credit it deserves(imo)..It’s not the holy grail but it’s close imo,and as close as pes in recent years has come to pes5 on the ps2...Overall presentation isn’t up to grade though or are the modes.Animation and graphics aside.
 
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Emroth said:
....is to get some really annoyed bunch of developers, who love football, to open Kickstarter, get sponsored by folk and create entire new game. Just like Kingdom Come happened.

Im starting to be more and more realistic here. As long as 90% of fanbase is shouting for tattoos and throws money at them - nothing is going to change. Not for us, offline players anyways.
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A lot to catch up on in this thread in the last few days with all you Tolstoys noising it up (no criticism here, quality dialogue always welcome) but this notion eats away at me.

For all the skillz sluts and footy fans lapping up FIFA (and PES trying to get in on the racket) there's still a shit ton of hipsters and purists out there who I believe could sustain a game of this ilk. Even if it was a bit pish straight off the bat I'd probably part with the dosh to support the cause and improvements.

It's a fair USP, the only game attempting to lovingly recreate the most popular sport on the planet. It's a claim that PES has long lost.

Of course, I have little grasp of the level of work involved and am just shooting from the hip; but I can but dream.
 
Flipper the Priest said:
A lot to catch up on in this thread in the last few days with all you Tolstoys noising it up (no criticism here, quality dialogue always welcome) but this notion eats away at me.

For all the skillz sluts and footy fans lapping up FIFA (and PES trying to get in on the racket) there's still a shit ton of hipsters and purists out there who I believe could sustain a game of this ilk. Even if it was a bit pish straight off the bat I'd probably part with the dosh to support the cause and improvements.

It's a fair USP, the only game attempting to lovingly recreate the most popular sport on the planet. It's a claim that PES has long lost.

Of course, I have little grasp of the level of work involved and am just shooting from the hip; but I can but dream.
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Its not really a thread for it so I'll keep it short
We know that there are people out there with a vision. Every year Fifa demo was trying to introduce something that was closer to football and every year they had to speed it up with patches. Make it more accurate and ping pongy. Braindead defenders is also something that was "forced" at them by fanbase. Same was with Pes14. They had a vision and they had to make 180 turn.
Hence I do believe that there are developers, who look at all their work being destroyed and are as annoyed as we are. Now some of them, like the lady from EA clip, might not give a flying fuck and might not even be interested in football, but I simply cant accept the thought that none of them work there coz they love football.
Its just a matter of reaching a breaking point and trying something on the side..
Fingers crossed, anyway..
 
Ameppe said:
Here there are 3 hours (!!!) of Pes 2021

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First of all i only watch the first match ( ain't nobody got time to watch 3 hours, lol )

AI vs AI with player 1 in coach mode ( exhibition mode ) I bet the guy who upload the video playing below top player level. If this guy play it on Superstar or even Legend difficulty there's 80% chance the player with coach mode lose the match. I've seen much better AI vs AI match in PS2 game than this one.
 
Hayes said:
First of all i only watch the first match ( ain't nobody got time to watch 3 hours, lol )

AI vs AI with player 1 in coach mode ( exhibition mode ) I bet the guy who upload the video playing below top player level. If this guy play it on Superstar or even Legend difficulty there's 80% chance the player with coach mode lose the match. I've seen much better AI vs AI match in PS2 game than this one.
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Since i only play League mode nowadays,and the only way to skip/SIM a game in that mode is to use coach mode.
I don't think I've lost one single game doing so,on TP and SS.
I beat Juventus with my SPAL 4-0 for instance.
It's really a shitty way to see any form of tendencies/gameplay.
I can't understand why he uses it
 
Watching that PES2013 footage is just depressing when you see how little gameplay progress has been made in the 8 games since. Frankly it seems to be more regression and dumbing down than any hint of progress.

Even the crowd noise and commentary hasn't improved one bit!
 
Emroth said:
Its not really a thread for it so I'll keep it short
We know that there are people out there with a vision. Every year Fifa demo was trying to introduce something that was closer to football and every year they had to speed it up with patches. Make it more accurate and ping pongy. Braindead defenders is also something that was "forced" at them by fanbase. Same was with Pes14. They had a vision and they had to make 180 turn.
Hence I do believe that there are developers, who look at all their work being destroyed and are as annoyed as we are. Now some of them, like the lady from EA clip, might not give a flying fuck and might not even be interested in football, but I simply cant accept the thought that none of them work there coz they love football.
Its just a matter of reaching a breaking point and trying something on the side..
Fingers crossed, anyway..
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Sadly your right..I think developers should just stick to there vision and just remove any bugs or add just the cosmetic stuff..Kits and balls etc..

Seen far too many really promising pes and FIFA’s ruined through patches.

Change any system within a game engine via a patch and it’s going to negate something else or cause other gameplay features to be nullified,dumbed down or completely removed...These games aren’t as modular as developers make out..
 
As someone who is balls deep in PES 2013 now, considering the general consensus with that game is that it's quite fast & attack oriented compared to say 2012 or a PES 3 or 5, It still overall represents football a lot more realistically than the modern games do. The most important thing is the CPU does things that not only surprise you but looks quite natural rather than the puppetry and animatronic look of 2020. Even in 2016, They had a lot of subtle animations that gave players a lot of character that seems to have been removed since.
 
MafiaMurderBag said:
As someone who is balls deep in PES 2013 now, considering the general consensus with that game is that it's quite fast & attack oriented compared to say 2012 or a PES 3 or 5, It still overall represents football a lot more realistically than the modern games do. The most important thing is the CPU does things that not only surprise you but looks quite natural rather than the puppetry and animatronic look of 2020. Even in 2016, They had a lot of subtle animations that gave players a lot of character that seems to have been removed since.
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Had a few games of PES 2013 at lunch after @gabe.paul.logan posted those GIFs. It's really surprising, for a game that's considered "attack-oriented", just how much more brain-power is involved in getting up the field compared to the modern games (rather than just being able to pass it to a winger and then blast down the wings for a cross, as any team, against any team).

I think part of that feeling comes from the fact that the game is clunkier and has less freedom, therefore the AI has less variables to "think about" and can predict what you're going to do more easily (because with the game being less responsive than modern games, you're not going to "surprise" it by turning in a different direction at a split second's notice).

The desperation for responsiveness from the online guys means the engine is fully aimed towards that, and perhaps the AI just can't keep up (hence why it's so "samey", so simple and so predictable now).

I really enjoyed the games I had - although, on Superstar, there were several instances where I hit a through-pass to a fast striker and you could see his run being warped into a jog-on-the-spot in order for the defenders to be able to catch him. SEVEN YEARS LATER and I can show you a couple of videos of the exact same thing happening in 2020...

The worst part is, I distinctly remember thinking at the time that the next generation of consoles would remove the need for the game to "cheat" like that in order for the better team to win...

I truly think starting from scratch is the only way to get rid of all these coding shortcuts. The power exists now to super-charge the AI - but the online players want non-controlled players to have shit AI, for the sake of "the skill gap". So will it ever happen? No. Probably not.
 
Chris Davies said:
Had a few games of PES 2013 at lunch after @gabe.paul.logan posted those GIFs. It's really surprising, for a game that's considered "attack-oriented", just how much more brain-power is involved in getting up the field compared to the modern games (rather than just being able to pass it to a winger and then blast down the wings for a cross, as any team, against any team).

I think part of that feeling comes from the fact that the game is clunkier and has less freedom, therefore the AI has less variables to "think about" and can predict what you're going to do more easily (because with the game being less responsive than modern games, you're not going to "surprise" it by turning in a different direction at a split second's notice).

The desperation for responsiveness from the online guys means the engine is fully aimed towards that, and perhaps the AI just can't keep up (hence why it's so "samey", so simple and so predictable now).

I really enjoyed the games I had - although, on Superstar, there were several instances where I hit a through-pass to a fast striker and you could see his run being warped into a jog-on-the-spot in order for the defenders to be able to catch him. SEVEN YEARS LATER and I can show you a couple of videos of the exact same thing happening in 2020...

The worst part is, I distinctly remember thinking at the time that the next generation of consoles would remove the need for the game to "cheat" like that in order for the better team to win...

I truly think starting from scratch is the only way to get rid of all these coding shortcuts. The power exists now to super-charge the AI - but the online players want non-controlled players to have shit AI, for the sake of "the skill gap". So will it ever happen? No. Probably not.
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I think the game being "clunkier" is a factor in how the AI can be set up, especially on PS2 where it had even less to think about with 8 directional movement. PES 2013 though was still pretty fast paced and responsive to me (especially dribbling with someone with the "Speed Merchant" trait), with 360 degree movement and manual passing. The only part I'd call "clunky" would how limited the variety of animations was. Can anyone really watch those 2013 videos and tell me what has significantly changed gameplay-wise apart from more animations?

I actually think adding loads more animations has been a bad thing - to sum up as best I can and I hope this makes sense, I'd say that now in both games it's the animations driving the gameplay, rather than the gameplay driving the animations.

In those older games when you pressed certain buttons you pretty much knew what animations were going to happen and they'd be short and snappy. They were limited but functional to get the job done, they were the vehicle to keep the gameplay moving. You knew this, the AI knew this, so each action had less ambiguity around what the result would be and how/when to use each action.

Now, they've added hundreds (maybe thousands) more animations which trigger in very similar/identical situations your inputs are no longer purely a vehicle for the gameplay, they are just a suggestion to the game to find a matching animation out of a bloated library of them.

The number of animations in these games is overrated. It's much better to me if you have a more limited number of them and the user/AI can consistently use them to try to produce whatever outcome they want. This is why people like the combat in games like Dark Souls, animations are consistent/predictable so the gameplay/AI can be designed to offer a difficult but fair skill based challenge.

Until they're actually going to use physics so inputs directly drive gameplay (e.g. Rocket League, Exanima), I actually want as little animation in my games as possible. It's pretty much all style over substance unless the animations are tuned and blended almost perfectly into the gameplay like NBA 2K or For Honor.
 
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From a Twitter guy I would say is reliable.

Translation...

He's spoken to two people who've played PES 2021 and both say:
Less physical, more responsive, otherwise the same as the current game (in its patched form, I'd guess).

:BORED:
 
Chris Davies said:


From a Twitter guy I would say is reliable.

Translation...

He's spoken to two people who've played PES 2021 and both say:
Less physical, more responsive, otherwise the same as the current game (in its patched form, I'd guess).

:BORED:
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Looks like most of the replies for that tweet like these changes. I guess that I’m in the minority that prefers physicality and slower pace (but still responsive).
 
Chris Davies said:


From a Twitter guy I would say is reliable.

Translation...

He's spoken to two people who've played PES 2021 and both say:
Less physical, more responsive, otherwise the same as the current game (in its patched form, I'd guess).

:BORED:
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You just described gameplay patch I am using by nesa24.on PC for last 6 weeks that tweaks input delay,player reaction speed,game speed,shooting power,ball stop force and ball weight.

Nearest thing to sliders,adjustable in sider overlay.
 
PES 2021 looks like the same old boring stale crap to me. You'll still get the placebo players saying it's a lot different to PES 2020 though.

And the in-game contrast is still all over the place. Game looks awful visually.
 
rojofa said:
I think the game being "clunkier" is a factor in how the AI can be set up, especially on PS2 where it had even less to think about with 8 directional movement. PES 2013 though was still pretty fast paced and responsive to me (especially dribbling with someone with the "Speed Merchant" trait), with 360 degree movement and manual passing. The only part I'd call "clunky" would how limited the variety of animations was. Can anyone really watch those 2013 videos and tell me what has significantly changed gameplay-wise apart from more animations?

I actually think adding loads more animations has been a bad thing - to sum up as best I can and I hope this makes sense, I'd say that now in both games it's the animations driving the gameplay, rather than the gameplay driving the animations.

In those older games when you pressed certain buttons you pretty much knew what animations were going to happen and they'd be short and snappy. They were limited but functional to get the job done, they were the vehicle to keep the gameplay moving. You knew this, the AI knew this, so each action had less ambiguity around what the result would be and how/when to use each action.

Now, they've added hundreds (maybe thousands) more animations which trigger in very similar/identical situations your inputs are no longer purely a vehicle for the gameplay, they are just a suggestion to the game to find a matching animation out of a bloated library of them.

The number of animations in these games is overrated. It's much better to me if you have a more limited number of them and the user/AI can consistently use them to try to produce whatever outcome they want. This is why people like the combat in games like Dark Souls, animations are consistent/predictable so the gameplay/AI can be designed to offer a difficult but fair skill based challenge.

Until they're actually going to use physics so inputs directly drive gameplay (e.g. Rocket League, Exanima), I actually want as little animation in my games as possible. It's pretty much all style over substance unless the animations are tuned and blended almost perfectly into the gameplay like NBA 2K or For Honor.
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You must work in game development(because you know)..😉

I tip my hat...Great post and accurate👊

 
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*aLe said:
If there's no "tromba tromba", I'm out.

Sorry, almost only the Italian guys would understand this. But they'll definitely agree.
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One of the things that happens alot on Pes2020 is CPU using a tackle that make your player lose balance and sometimes cancel your commands (a pass or shot). I think this was what he is talking about.
 
We can’t really tell on gameplay unless we played it on how the game feels and so on
I hope improvements are there
Scoreboards and presentation indeed very stale considering we have to deal with it for an extra year
Scoreboard reskin is ridiculous though
 
People here tempting me to download 2013 again knowing full well how much i hated it when it came out, mainly because of its outdated animations compared to fifa that time. But then again, who am i to say that when everytime i get my footy thirst, i load up pes 5/6 to quench it. Regarding pes 2021, i loaded up 2020 FUMA and although it felt nice in instances, it provides no thrill for me like older pes does.
 
Chilleverest said:
People here tempting me to download 2013 again knowing full well how much i hated it when it came out, mainly because of its outdated animations compared to fifa that time. But then again, who am i to say that when everytime i get my footy thirst, i load up pes 5/6 to quench it. Regarding pes 2021, i loaded up 2020 FUMA and although it felt nice in instances, it provides no thrill for me like older pes does.
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Do it man. I did not like it when released but in comparison to PES 20 it's miles ahead and really nails the basics that made PES so good. I had a few games of it last night and it was pure fun. Sure it looks clunky and some animations are questionable, but it gets the basics right - the player individuality, the difference in games when you play a big team vs small team, the feel of different player types, everything that PES 20 does not which which is why it such a hollow experience. I just wonder what the scripting is like in PES 13 ML because after a few games last night I am tempted :THINK:
 
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