WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread

[mattster12]

Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 07/27/07)

Nice to see you back mattster12.

Hey Stringer man... was just havin a look through your random picture thread.

Was just havin alook through all the screens on page 1 and Brazil vs Argentina ones look really good. To me they look like there from a later build than the ones with C.Ronaldo in what with players having the right boots and the short textures etc... I am worried about the diving though because there's bound to people who when you play them online know exactly how to manipulate it. But I'll reserve final judgement until I've played it and seen how it works for myself.

 

[Chris Davies]

Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 07/27/07)

I'm glad I've had a few serious replies now, thank you. And I respect what you guys (mainly Adonis, Han and mattster12) have to say. I disagree on a few things, and I'll make this as quick as possible because there's a nice vibe now and I don't want it to break down again

Spoiler

Han: I wasn't playing the PS2 version because it's patchable, I was playing it because I really don't like the 360 version. I don't see too much of a difference but the one thing that ruined the 360 version for me was the shooting. I could have taken hundreds of video-clips of myself tapping the shoot button as quickly as possible, as if it hurt to push it, and yet the ball would balloon over every time (even if you hold down that low-shot button). I'd play online and it would feel like total, utter chance whether you'd score or not. Either the power-bar would be normal or (nine times out of ten) it would be hyper. You feel so powerless in the equation.

Mattster12: For me, trying to adjust to free passing is nightmarish - I'm sure it can be done but it's very difficult to use the right stick, and if there was just a "manual passing yes/no" option in the controller settings (that you could use just by using the left stick and the pass button), it would be a million times easier. I also disagree that being able to do a short through-ball or a long through-ball is enough options, because you're not actually controlling the power yourself, you're just choosing which player the CPU aims at for you. I realise that some people prefer this, but they could at least give us the option. With your other points, I find myself thinking "why should I have to perform three-button combos when all I want is to move freely/for my fellow player to have common sense? Why do you have to force the game into acting naturally?"

But I appreciate the replies and I'll stick at it. To be honest with you, I'm really enjoying this Master League save I have going at the moment, I forgot how satisfying it is to buy players and implement them into the team.

 

[pogoss]

Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 07/27/07)

I seriously hope its turns out to be false, the game being faster is totally unnecessary.

another thing i hate is when people insist on going barca or chelsea, don't get me wrong I play as barca but there are other quality teams on the game that people should play as. people should play as roma or valencia, people should try and mix up their tactics instead of doing the same stuff over and over again.

they should do like in the old days and make it possible to change speed with a lot of possiblities like in iss .

 

[mattster12]

Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 07/27/07)

Mattster12: For me, trying to adjust to free passing is nightmarish - I'm sure it can be done but it's very difficult to use the right stick, and if there was just a "manual passing yes/no" option in the controller settings (that you could use just by using the left stick and the pass button), it would be a million times easier. I also disagree that being able to do a short through-ball or a long through-ball is enough options, because you're not actually controlling the power yourself, you're just choosing which player the CPU aims at for you. I realise that some people prefer this, but they could at least give us the option. With your other points, I find myself thinking "why should I have to perform three-button combos when all I want is to move freely/for my fellow player to have common sense? Why do you have to force the game into acting naturally?"

I agree I would prefer a power bar for doing through balls. But there are more options than simply just pressing Also one thing I've always wanted them to implement is the shot fake through ball. For example the one Sheringham did in Euro 96 to set up Shearer against the Dutch. It could be done so easily and it would add something to the game I think.

Regarding your other point well at the end of the day it's still a computer game, and in computer games you have to press the right buttons to get the players to act like you want. The players don't have common sense, they can't think for themselves. You have to tell them what to do by pressing different button combinations and setting up strategy's and tactics. Theirs no other option but to force the game to do what you want.

 

[ieatfanboysforbreakfast]

Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 07/27/07)

Regarding your other point well at the end of the day it's still a computer game, and in computer games you have to press the right buttons to get the players to act like you want. The players don't have common sense, they can't think for themselves. You have to tell them what to do by pressing different button combinations and setting up strategy's and tactics. Theirs no other option but to force the game to do what you want.

So are you saying there is no such thing as AI? I have a feeling you don't really understand the concept of programming.

 

[Trance_Allstar]

Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 07/27/07)

Ah yes actually I see what you mean, I just come back from footy, so about the directions for shooting, I dont really know how they can implement all this into a game with a controller at the moment, but maybe we could use the six axis, I mean, we got square for height, but if its just power then how do we adjust height, we cant let cpu/ai decide beased on player position, as people will argue its still not down the them, so what could we do, we have R2 for placement, so why not use the six axis, maybe tilt like up so foot is more flat and player leans forward so its lower, then back player back, shoots higher, then you ould turn the controller for curl, and then you could curl and tilt forward adding curl, dip, just something like that, but mybe that could be too much?

The directions can be better I suppose, even with the d-pad say something like this... up is post/nearpost aswell as down for the other side, straight is straight on, down middle, and then the diagnals, are inbetween, something like that, and then obviously you can do that with the analog stick but to a more degree of accuracy, but that alone is good for dpad. Because, I swear aiming up or down, or diagnal same way, does the same shot or type either wide or near post, not inbetween, well it is if ur lucky.

Thought id comment on this post, never read the rest, because I saw shooting a major flaw, in the 360 one anyway, the ps2 one is goo enough for last gen, maybe could do with the change of the directions thing.

You know, it would work. One of the main things I miss is the ability to decide how the players should try and curl the ball and such. Obviously the stance, foot shape and balance of the player all factor in when you shoot, but if you could tilt the sixaxis like you describe, then the player would try and shape himself so that the ball will get the curl you want. Also this means that you won't need to take up any buttons just to curl etc, and you won't need to use aftertouch curling (curling the ball after it has left the boot, which means that the ball suddenly starts curling after it has left the boot, ISS98 had this and it was fun tho unrealistic).

As for Shot height, it can be determined simply tilting (leaning) the analog stick differently. For example, leaning it 50% will make the shot grounded. Leaning it all the way will have the player trying for a high shot. The reason 50% should be the lowest point, is that if you try and tilt the stick less than that value (tilting it very little) it becomes hard to determine direction. You need to lean it about half-way to full before you have adequate control over direction aswell as the tilt.

The analog stick can solve alot of things if you use it fully. Just before you shoot, you just tilt the analog stick to the degree you want the shot to be, and then you hope for the best.

I'm glad I've had a few serious replies now, thank you. And I respect what you guys (mainly Adonis, Han and mattster12) have to say. I disagree on a few things, and I'll make this as quick as possible because there's a nice vibe now and I don't want it to break down again

Han: I wasn't playing the PS2 version because it's patchable, I was playing it because I really don't like the 360 version. I don't see too much of a difference but the one thing that ruined the 360 version for me was the shooting. I could have taken hundreds of video-clips of myself tapping the shoot button as quickly as possible, as if it hurt to push it, and yet the ball would balloon over every time (even if you hold down that low-shot button). I'd play online and it would feel like total, utter chance whether you'd score or not. Either the power-bar would be normal or (nine times out of ten) it would be hyper. You feel so powerless in the equation.

Mattster12: For me, trying to adjust to free passing is nightmarish - I'm sure it can be done but it's very difficult to use the right stick, and if there was just a "manual passing yes/no" option in the controller settings (that you could use just by using the left stick and the pass button), it would be a million times easier. I also disagree that being able to do a short through-ball or a long through-ball is enough options, because you're not actually controlling the power yourself, you're just choosing which player the CPU aims at for you. I realise that some people prefer this, but they could at least give us the option. With your other points, I find myself thinking "why should I have to perform three-button combos when all I want is to move freely/for my fellow player to have common sense? Why do you have to force the game into acting naturally?"

Yes, shooting is horrible, and it is a fact.

If I tap the shot button as quickly as I can, I WANT the player to shot very gently. Instead the shot bar will swing up to sometimes 50+ %, and the ball wil go over. In other words, in certain situations it is impossible to get it on goal. I don't understand why the shotbar isn't linear liek the pass power bar.

After all, the powerbar is a representation of the power I WANT the player to put into the shot. Yet in certain situations it is impossible to get less than 50% power on the shot bar.

And here's the kicker: The shotbar goes up faster when the player is unbalanced, which means that the player will only be able to strike hard shots when off balance. I thought in real life, the player would get a poorer hit when off balance, which obviously results in less power. How is that for backwards logic?
And besides, just because you are off balance in real life, doesn't mean you can't tap the ball very gently. But in PES they just suckerpunch the ball over when they are off balance.

Is what I just mentioned really rocket science. It is common sense, yet KONAMI designs a system that is completely backwards.



As for manual passing with the Right Stick, it is not a proper solution.

First of all IT IS 16-way at MOST! Even if you lived in the 1980's, that wasn't referred as "Analog". Analog is 256 directions, or perhaps 128. 16 is just a fancy d-pad. Try being accurate with 50m longpasses with 16-way. Beckham would be out of a job.

Secondly, why should I have to fiddle with the Right Analog Stick when I already havemy left thumb permanently planted on the Left Analog Stick? I have trouble properly finding the Right analog with my thumb in the heat of the battle, not to mention trying to click it and move it simultaneously to activate the pass mode. I do roulettes and stuff aswell with it, so don't gice me any "tips" on making passing primary and having to click the stick to activate tricks etc.


I'm so pissed at the logic KONAMI uses. The player is offbalance, let's make the shotbar fly up so that he bombs the ball over. Yeah, that happens often.

Have you ever heard a soccer player say something like this:

"I'm sorry coach, I was clear on goal and was just going to tap it in, but then I got a push and instead of broadsiding it into goal, I just blasted it instead. I was off balance and so I really didn't have an option".

The coach obviously responds with "It's okay mate, we all know you can't hit a ball gently when you are off balance, it's a law of physics or something. Your leg will just swing so hard if you are off balance, you don't have any control over your muscles."

 

[cowden_harley]

Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 07/27/07)

stadiun possibly stade de france?

 

[mattster12]

Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 07/27/07)

So are you saying there is no such thing as AI? I have a feeling you don't really understand the concept of programming.

Where did I say that?

The AI does not have common sense does it, this is just a game for a console the AI is not that smart. Maybe the new teamvison feature will change that. Of course their is AI but I tend to think of the AI more in terms of the cpu I'm playing against. The higher the difficulty the better the AI the better the cpu plays.

Thats why I said I force the game to do what I want. When I'm in control I try not to let the AI have to much control on how I play. If I want a player to run down the wing I'll make him do it.

Some of you expect to much, you make it sound like programming is the easiest thing in the world. You've got more control in pes/we than any other football game ever invented but you still complain. If Konami hasn't done it and nobody else has maybe it's not that easy you know.

In terms of gameplay I love it, I think seabass and co have done a great job that no one else has come close to doing, and also for the simple fact that for a small amount of money I've had 100's of hours of enjoyment out of it.

But it's not perfect of course and my main gripe is their presentation and stupid master league, I agree with all comments about that. I just wish we had fifa's presentation with pes/we's gameplay.......maybe one day!

 

[mattster12]

Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 07/27/07)

As for manual passing with the Right Stick, it is not a proper solution.

First of all IT IS 16-way at MOST! Even if you lived in the 1980's, that wasn't referred as "Analog". Analog is 256 directions, or perhaps 128. 16 is just a fancy d-pad. Try being accurate with 50m longpasses with 16-way. Beckham would be out of a job.

Has any football game ever had fully analog passing that worked well though......maybe it's not that easy to implement.

 

[ThomasGOAL]

Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 07/27/07)

stadiun possibly stade de france?

The down of the stadium look like but the stadium in the game have 4 tribunes, only 3 of Stade de France.

 

[the_thing]

Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 07/27/07)

welcome back mattster . havent seen you on here in ages.

 

[hazza10]

Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 07/27/07)

I think you could be gay.

no u fuckin idiot, im just sayin konami need to get players individual features right u fukin idiot

 

[Kenny M]

Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 07/27/07)

no u fuckin idiot, im just sayin konami need to get players individual features right u fukin idiot

hazza, can you make your sig scroll horizontally rather than vertically?

 

[ieatfanboysforbreakfast]

Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 07/27/07)

Might I point you towards the 2d engine of Football Manager, this is a prime example of how programmed AI creates the "common sense" you speak of, whilst it's artificial it really is not impossible programmatically to at least make players utilise space on a flat plane or not to stand a mile offside. Your argument, like so many others, leans towards "there is nothing better so why make any criticisms". The FM 2d engine is close to positional perfection, to translate that model to a 3d framework is of course not an easy task but 3d games are built on a 2d plane to begin with anyway - i.e. the radar in PES.

In terms of gameplay I love it, I think seabass and co have done a great job that no one else has come close to doing, and also for the simple fact that for a small amount of money I've had 100's of hours of enjoyment out of it.

Can I be crude here and say I don't care? Like most of your points they are irrelevant because they are subjective. We are, as far as I know, talking about inherent flaws with the game which are there as a matter of fact not as a matter of opinion. Why do you think there is an entire forum on PESFan dedicated to user generated suggestions? The sad thing is Konami don't appear to have considered a single one of them.

Case in point: Kawai I believe wrote a mammoth document on how free kicks are completely unrealistic in PES/WE and some practical solutions that could be implemented into the game to bring it closer in line with reality. I bet my absolute bottom dollar even if the free kicks are "harder" in this version, keepers will still have superhuman capabilities making it nigh on impossible to score from past a certain distance.

 

[hazza10]

Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 07/27/07)

yer lol

 

[Kenny M]

Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 07/27/07)

thanks hazza

 

[ieatfanboysforbreakfast]

Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 07/27/07)

no u fuckin idiot, im just sayin konami need to get players individual features right u fukin idiot

Ooh, very defensive there old chap. Perhaps you are a closet gay because I seem to have touched a nerve.

Let's be honest you don't care about individual features do you? As long as Cristiano is perfect you'll give the game a 10/10. I think we've seen enough evidence.

Oh I notice Ronaldo isn't top of your little list there, perhaps you should promote him to number one he might be annoyed with you.

 

[Chris Davies]

Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 07/27/07)

As I said earlier I'm getting into the Master League, been playing it for another few hours. Just two more comments (just two, I swear)...

I tried to get into the manual passing, and although I gave it half an hour, I doubt I could ever get into it. I was pressing down and slightly left/right, and the pass would go straight down. Which isn't free passing - I want to knock the ball into a certain position, and I can't. Plus it still seems to be "magnetised", i.e. it will only go to a player's foot, when I'm trying to knock it into space.

Something that's really pissing me off though is that the CPU has started doing some things for me. Three times in one match I've been pressing a player, only to find that a few seconds into this pressing my player decides to perform a slide-tackle. That is absolutely infuriating, and completely wrong. I've got him covered, I've got him covered, oh wait I've just slid on my arse for no reason, he's past me now, and he's scored. How fucking, fucking, fucking annoying. (And I've just had a guy clear the ball for me, when all I was pressing was the D-PAD - how nice of him.)

No, I'm not imagining it, I'm not pressing tackle by accident, blah blah blah. I'm pressing "pressure", full-stop. If you think I'm mad, I don't care, I probably am - but this has happened to me quite a few times now and I'm not making it up.

Perhaps the reason why some people haven't seen the deflections-rebound-to-CPU stuff and the above "I'll do what I want" syndrome because they're not playing the Master League? It only seems to happen in the ML.

EDIT: Okay, I lied, one last thing.

I just had the ball running up the wing, then I let go of sprint and press the opposite direction, to stop. The guy takes four steps, STILL SPRINTING, and runs the ball out of play. Doesn't stop running, doesn't turn around. This doesn't happen when you're in the middle of the pitch.

It happens with strikers as well - I was sprinting and I pressed shoot. There's a defender close behind me, and there's another defender but he's yards in front of me. My striker takes four steps before trying to shoot, and of course, by that time I'm up to the defender and all he has to do is poke his foot forward to steal the ball.

But if you had no defenders around you, he'd take one or, at most, two steps, and then shoot. So it doesn't seem like an AI glitch to me, it seems like an out-and-out cheat.

 

[winston]

Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 07/27/07)

Has any football game ever had fully analog passing that worked well though......maybe it's not that easy to implement.

Football Kingdom has an analogue passing system that is vastly superior to Konami's RAS "solution".

The RAS in PES is not analogue. As my Swedish friend has so eloquently pointed out, the directions are severely limited and the power guage is a plain bad implementation. Why should I have to wait the extra half-second for the power-guage to fill it in order to play a supposedly faster pass? There is absolutely no prospect of playing a quick passing game. And anyway, this is not how it works in real life. If anything, a real human would swing his leg more quickly to achieve a more powerful pass, thus executing it more quickly. And to add insult to injury, the maximum power achievable through this implementation seems to be the equaivalent of simply pressing . The game decides how hard it wants the pass to be, depending upon the current cicumstances in the AI model, not you.

And as Trance_Allstar has also pointed out, why do we have to use the RAS for this anyway? What is so wrong with having the direction being aimed in using the LAS being the control that determines the pass direction? That would be completely logical. What Konami have written defies logic. If they wrote a racing car game, would they have the player sitting there with the steering wheel in his hand, but insist the player must actually use his gear-stick to determine in which direction his car turns?

And what is wrong with having the button having a power guage? That would be logical. Indeed, are the PS controller buttons not analogue to touch? So pressing the button harder would result in a harder kick of the ball. That would be completely logical. And the maximum power achievable should be at least twice what the game currently offers. If that means people initially completely overhit passes until they get used to it, so be it.

As things stand, the cpu decides far too much. The amount of real 100% genuine freedom on offer is actually very small. Perhaps some people have just gotten comfy with Konami's ways and simply refuse to accept that anything better is possible. I am fed up with having to play within the games narrow limits of control.

And has Jack Bauer has pointed out, if PES2008 is basically just the old engine ported to next-gen, then we are stuck with this system for years to come. An overhaul is what is needed, a complete redesign of the whole control system. The sad things is that I know Konami aren't going to do this and I, along with a growing number of others, find ourselves keeping a close eye on the likes of FIFA in the hope that they can elevate their gameplay to something worth considering.

It was such a shame that Football Kingdom wasn't given a chance to develop. Given a couple of years of development, that game was a sure-fire PES beater....yet they canned it .

 

[pepper63]

Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 07/27/07)

no u fuckin idiot, im just sayin konami need to get players individual features right u fukin idiot

Oi! Noobie there's a pecking order here and you're way down on it.Show a little respect and stop posting like a little skank who writes like he's texting"yeh but,no but"yeh but no but".BE NICE...:nono:

 

[Trance_Allstar]

Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 07/27/07)

texty text...

Thanks for backing me mate.

I am most frustrated over the fact that PES just takes sodamn slow to develop.

FIFA will sometimes take a year where they completel redesign the controls etc from one year to the next. Like what happened to the Next-Gen FIFA07. Player movement changes drastically, and there are so many videos showing in close detail the extremely detailed collisions between foot and ball, the way the players plant their feet (no sliding feet there) and just the way they move.

Whilst all PES can do is "fine-tune" animations (that still look the same), or implement new animations that look like crap (keeper jumping save animations in PES6, hello).


As for analog aim on passing, it worked extremely well in ISS98. There you could do a auto-aim pass, ot you could hold R and aim completely freely (and the time you held the button determined how long/hard it was. You also had curl control, so you could strike long manual passes that gently curled around opposition players to reach their target man.

And again, ISS was a KONAMI game!

And also, the diving feature and shirt-pull feature were in ISS98. So what they basically have done is re-implement 10 year old stuff as new features (whilst still being 10 years behind ISS when it comes to analog control and such).


Quite sad from my point of view really.

 

[lazavas]

Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 07/27/07)

Oi! Noobie there's a pecking order here and you're way down on it.Show a little respect and stop posting like a little skank who writes like he's texting"yeh but,no but"yeh but no but".BE NICE...:nono:

pecking order? hhahahaha now ive seen it all

 

[winston]

Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 07/27/07)

As for analog aim on passing, it worked extremely well in ISS98. There you could do a auto-aim pass, ot you could hold R and aim completely freely (and the time you held the button determined how long/hard it was. You also had curl control, so you could strike long manual passes that gently curled around opposition players to reach their target man.

So true. I forgot to mention the after-touch which is also present in Football Kingdom. There is such joy to be had for playing such passes as you describe, and knowing that it was you that performed it.

With PES, you simply aim in a vague direction, press a button and see what the cpu decides to make unfold. Anyone who thinks that this is as good as it gets has really got to awaken their imagination.

Seriously, there are people who play only PES for years on end and believe that nothing can possibly exceed it. If it's not in PES, it's either not possible or not worth having. To them, the world is still flat.

 

[pepper63]

Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 07/27/07)

pecking order? hhahahaha now ive seen it all

Good that one,i pissed myself when i read it again...We all get wound up but this is a comunity.What the hell has this to do with the topic????

 

[chagochoac]

Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 07/27/07)

The down of the stadium look like but the stadium in the game have 4 tribunes, only 3 of Stade de France.

Im sure 60% :p is Azteca or Emirates.
The first time I saw the picture, I thought was the Azteca.

 

[Lettuce1980]

Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 07/27/07)

I'm so pissed at the logic KONAMI uses. The player is offbalance, let's make the shotbar fly up so that he bombs the ball over. Yeah, that happens often.

Have you ever heard a soccer player say something like this:

"I'm sorry coach, I was clear on goal and was just going to tap it in, but then I got a push and instead of broadsiding it into goal, I just blasted it instead. I was off balance and so I really didn't have an option".

The coach obviously responds with "It's okay mate, we all know you can't hit a ball gently when you are off balance, it's a law of physics or something. Your leg will just swing so hard if you are off balance, you don't have any control over your muscles."

1.Very funny
2.I agree with you

 

[WEtongelre]

Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 07/27/07)

Im sure 60% :p is Azteca or Emirates.
The first time I saw the picture, I thought was the Azteca.

Me 2

 

[Freaske]

Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 07/27/07)

Has any football game ever had fully analog passing that worked well though......maybe it's not that easy to implement.

It's really hard to say this but : FIFA 2002 had analog passing or am i wrong? And it worked very well....

 

[shilam0unainai]

Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 07/27/07)

I think PES6 is an excellent game and is even better when you're playing against a friend. A lot of the problems sound like they have been sorted for PES 2008 but the game needs to be slower and none of the previews have mentioned whether it is or not.

i think the game will be faster because konami do that on purpose for the network because of lagg issues.If the game is faster offline then online with just a bit lagg is becoming normal.They are really smart they have a reason for everything

 

[ieatfanboysforbreakfast]

Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 07/27/07)

your just a fukin idiot m8. how could i be gay wen i poled ur mum lastr night.

:lol::lol::lol::lmao: A Man Utd fan who lives in London. I rest my case.