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WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread

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Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 08/18/07)

You need to understand that some people plays ML and some others just do the multiplayer part. I do understand your complaints, but the game is not a shit like you want to show us.

Mmm, fifa has both. I havent played it, but id die for a good ML structure and every match i play, connect with another guy who plays my rival. Now, stop dreaming...

About the little progress shown by Pes, im with those who think that is intentional. Think of it like 1000m race. If you are running 1st, you want to hold your distance with the 2nd, so if he come close, you will still have energy to accelerate.

So this year Konami will win, with teamvision, and all this nextgen hype. Why to do the Ml structure?. They hold that card until another year.
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 08/18/07)

Yeah Im with you. For now they are happy enough truly making the next gen step with a stable game and a modern presentation.
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 08/18/07)

LOL little childish fanboy, did I hurt your feelings? I'm a gamer first and foremost, I swore allegiance to ISS/PES/WE for a number of years, I'll gladly try to the new PES to see if it's progressing, but if I don't like it I'm going to say I don't like it, if you can't handle hearing a negative opinion about something then I suggest you turn off the internet, it's not for you......

:lol:, fanboy ? What part of what I said made me a fanboy ? And nah, you haven't hurt my feeling.

:D

I can handle negative opinions but when you go on like how you did, you might aswell not play it because it seems like you aren't enjoying it.

;)
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 08/18/07)

all the fanboy accusations are so fucking childish....grow up....mugs!!
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 08/18/07)

I think you did not read the IGN-preview, in particular the Teamvision-part.
Yes, TeamVision is the new 'script' and it looks pretty much simulation to me.

That is not what we generally mean with scripting. When in relation to passing etc, the "scripts" are the CPU-decided aiming of passes, and CPU-decided powers of passes, the CPU-decided aim of shots, etc.

In a perfect system, it would rarely be possible to hit a pass/shot exactly where you are aiming (that isn't realistic), and the stats determine how consistentthey are, and how small their margins of error are. Furthermore you would need to consider the players current stance and balance which would affect effectiveness and accurateness (again the players stats like balance and shot technique etc matters, since some players are better at getting shots off when unbalanced.

But the problem is that in PES you can't even aim in the first place, since the 8-way digital prevents you from making more than general suggestions as to the direction of a pass. The AI then "figures out" where you want the pass to be played, sometimes being completely wrong in regard to aim and power. And then, after the AI already has made alterations and interpretations as to where the ball is to be played,it filteres the input again, to make shots stray off target, passes be more or less accurate, etc.
Not to mention that there is no skill in the passing since you are getting major "help" with both aim and power, even though I might want to miss passes on my own. It's sort of like playing Halo or CS with forced auto-aim. Where is the fun and skill?

I've seen many an occasion when Zlatan for example has used his strength and uber skills to get past 3/4 players.

It happens in real life so what have Konami done wrong?

e.g. Messi' goal vs Getafe this year, he doesn't do it every game but he has the attributes to do it so people should stop criticizing Konami unnecessarily.

To be honest, I saw lots of that in PES6 aswell, Adriano/Zlatan walking past defenders that just stood there, casually waving their feet at futile attempts to get the ball. So saying it is something new seems rather undetailed in my opinion.

Besides, in real football there is always the option to use your body to stop a player like Zlatan. Sure, he is big and has balance, but if I stand directly in front of him, he willencounter some resistance. In PES6, yuor defenders would just slide out of the way, even though you had your entire shoulder in the way, or the leg, hip etc. And once you have seen enough instances of the ball passing completely through your defenders foot instead of being deflected off it, you sort of loose the enthusiasm. ;)
 
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Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 08/18/07)

That is not what we generally mean with scripting. When in relation to passing etc, the "scripts" are the CPU-decided aiming of passes, and CPU-decided powers of passes, the CPU-decided aim of shots, etc.

In a perfect system, it would rarely be possible to hit a pass/shot exactly where you are aiming (that isn't realistic). Furthermore you would need to consider the players current stance and balance which would affect effectiveness and accurateness.
Oh yes, I perfectly know what scripting is. What I am saying is that it is not nessesary to 'help the wrong way', to put it like that. Seabass told last year that this was done on purpose to make the matches more exciting. They don't need it anymore as TeamVision makes it hard enough.
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 08/18/07)

Oh yes, I perfectly know what scripting is. What I am saying is that it is not nessesary to 'help the wrong way', to put it like that. Seabass told last year that this was done on purpose to make the matches more exciting. They don't need it anymore as TeamVision makes it hard enough.

But, Han, you don't understand that pass and shooting scripting is in the CORE of the game, it's the engine itself, and Teamvision has nothing to do with that. Teamvision affects position of players and general strategy, and parameters such as mentality or agression, not the game mechanics. Passes will be totally auto-aimed, as shots and almost everything else until they do a new GAME engine not depending on ASSIGNING the ball. That's why there's no free bal phyisics in the game (and won't be).
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 08/18/07)

Pretty cool, can't see it too good but we can see something, looks cool IMO
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 08/18/07)


From the preview:

It’s not just the licences that remain unchanged- the graphics look remarkably similar to last years version. Some excused the PES6 engine, on account of it being Konami’s first foray into next-gen territory. With series second 360 outing in 3 years, you would’ve thought the developers should have gotten to grips with the hardware by now. Yes, there is a bit more dynamism to the players with kits flapping convincingly in the wind and grass stains adorning those who go to ground. Hair and sweat will swing and pour (respectively) as players cavort around the pitch, but the game is still a long way from the almost cinematic quality of Fifa. When comparisons with even the PS2’s level of visual quality can be made, than maybe it’s time for Konami to shift gears.
:(
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 08/18/07)


old news dude........ its from the video that those 2 dutch twats made for that gamessite, what was it called again??? insidegaming or summink like that?

Its a crappy shot of the them pissing around on the 360 version beta and scoring an own goal with their keeper. pricks. what a waste of a beta, they should have given the copy to this forum for preview.
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 08/18/07)

Oh yes, I perfectly know what scripting is. What I am saying is that it is not nessesary to 'help the wrong way', to put it like that. Seabass told last year that this was done on purpose to make the matches more exciting. They don't need it anymore as TeamVision makes it hard enough.

Yeah, I am not talking about the script that "balances" matches and such, to make sure you don't always win easily even if you have a good team etc. I generally refer to that match balancing as scripting aswell.

WHat I am referring to is the core gameplay where passpowers are predetermined, and where there is no way to user-control powers and aim completely (ie they are controlled by parameters and systems in the game, or "scripts" (might be a poor choice of words, but I can't think of a better one).
So if you press the d-pad to the right and then press the pass-button, the pass "scripts" or "systems" will determine which player you _might_ have wanted to pass to, and what speed you might have wanted on the pass.

Problem is that the AI will never be as good as I am at judging what aim or power a pass needs to be optimal for MY intentions (I might want to strike a loose pass since I immediately after intend to then make a direct-pass to another player. But since the game "pass system" doesn't know that, it might instead opt for a harder pass, which means that my player has troubles receiving the ball, causing the player to not be able to strike a good clean direct-touch to a teammate.

Or inversely, I might want to strike a really hard pass to a teammate because I see an opponent already moving in to intercept the pass-path. But the game opts for a normal-speed pass which then causes the pass to be intercepted. I might also have wanted to be on the safe side and aim slightly to the side of my player, to put even more distance between the ball and the opponent so as to avoid an interception. But because the aim is determined completely by the game, chances are it will completely disregard this aspect aswell.


So the scripting you refer to would sometimes affect the scripts I am referring to (causing the scripts (or systems) for pass aim etc to become poorer so as to make it harder for you to win and play well).

But even if you remove the "Cheating" script (so that there is no bias whatsoever at any point), there still remains the fact that the AI controlls for example pass speeds and aims instead of you, which again is like playing a FPS (a game that requires lots of skill and precision from the player to learn to aim properly to always hit the head for a clean kill for example) with forced auto-aim that completely removes almost any skills from the game (meaning that an 8-year old can strike passes as well as I can, as long as they can learn to push the pass button and basically operate the d-pad). If we could use the analog stick with pass power bar, the 8-year old would need alot of practice to learn when to use certain powers for the passes, how to aim properly with the analog stick to give the ball a good starting direction (player pass accuracies will more or less, depending on stats, corrupt your original intention).

I think that explains it better, I realize the "scripting" word might be most associated with "CPU cheating". ;)
 
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Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 08/18/07)


Now that was a very unimpressive PES2008 game in motion.

Not talking about the graphics (coz you can't see anything - too blurry)
Not talking about the gameplay (not enough footage)

But I'm talking about the entire look, feel and player movement. Felt a lot like current-gen to me.
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 08/18/07)

That clip is clearly from PES6, or something that looks exactly like it :lol:.

its a cropped version of the insidegaming vid that was posted about a week ago from that dutch gaming site with 2 little kids previewing the 360 beta of pes2008 but seemed to spend more time in the vid pissing around in the garden and generally twatting around. It is defintely the xbox 360 beta version as the full vid showed a little bit more. they had the screen to the side showing the gameplay behind his fat head and to the right the large plasma showing the game in full but the screen was blurred out so couldnt really make anything out.

From what little we saw it did seem to be like pes6 but i guess that what the magazines have said about theier betas. Guess we shall have to see it for ourlseves to see the subtle but positive changes that people are talking about.

Surely the Evo web swat team should be setting up base camp tomorrow for Leipzig? should be a GOOD week for proper news and valued opinions from people we trust and who appreciate the good and bad things about PES. C/mon guys do us proud and give us the scoop asap!
 
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Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 08/18/07)

But, Han, you don't understand that pass and shooting scripting is in the CORE of the game, it's the engine itself, and Teamvision has nothing to do with that. Teamvision affects position of players and general strategy, and parameters such as mentality or agression, not the game mechanics. Passes will be totally auto-aimed, as shots and almost everything else until they do a new GAME engine not depending on ASSIGNING the ball. That's why there's no free bal phyisics in the game (and won't be).
I understand what you are saying, but I simply disagree :)
See, passing, as you say, is auto-aimed, of course with help of the direction of your gamepad. In the official guide they explain howmuch the direction is affected by the direction you are facing. If you dribble along the sideline ( and facing along the sideline ) you can try to pass under different angles. The accuter the angle the greater the chance of a wrong pass. Sofar it is NOT scripted in a way of cheating. You just take a risk by passing at accuter angles that things go wrong. Were the cheating start is when the CPU is behind or the game goes towards the end. Than it need to change the course of the game and this is what happens:
The passing under an angle suddenly is less forgiving, making the chance of a bad pass greater than before. Shooting is harder for the same reason etc.
It is THIS PART of the scripting is not nessesary anymore because Teamvision takes care of changing the course of the game.
So yes, you are right that the CPU is 'calculating the passing etc. but the additional calculation of the passing, shooting etc. (for changing the course ot the game ) is now taken care of in another way.
 
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Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 08/18/07)

Samba, we all know it's old, but it's closer so we can see it better, that's what he's posting, he's not posting it to say it's a new video..
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 08/18/07)

Samba, we all know it's old, but it's closer so we can see it better, that's what he's posting, he's not posting it to say it's a new video..

np. :8):

Im just getting edgy now its so close to some tangible news and reports!! Just cant b e bothered in micro-analysing some crappy pixellated obscured vid of a beta or pre-beta. Know what I mean bro? ;)
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 08/18/07)

I understand what you are saying, but I simply disagree :)
See, passing, as you say, is auto-aimed, of course with help of the direction of your gamepad. In the official guide they explain howmuch the direction is affected by the direction you are facing. If you dribble along the sideline ( and facing along the sideline ) you can try to pass under different angles. The accuter the angle the greater the chance of a wrong pass. Sofar it is NOT scripted in a way of cheating. You just take a risk by passing at accuter angles that things go wrong. Were the cheating start is when the CPU is behind or the game goes towards the end. Than it need to change the course of the game and this is what happens:
The passing under an angle suddenly is less forgiving, making the chance of a bad pass greater than before. Shooting is harder for the same reason etc.
It is THIS PART of the scripting is not nessesary anymore because Teamvision takes care of changing the course of the game.
So yes, you are right that the CPU is 'calculating the passing etc. but the additional calculation of the passing, shooting etc. (for changing the course ot the game ) is now taken care of in another way.

Han mate, read my reply, post 8145. ;)

It is not the fact that passing/shooting at accuter angles makes for less accurate passing and shots. That is only realistic and NEEDS to be in the game.

The problem we have is that there are only 8 angles to begin with, which means that unless a teammate is positioned at exactly one of the 8 D-pad angles, the game starts making it's own judgments about the aim.

Just read my reply, I explained it as well as I think I can there. ;)

Again it has nothing to do with "cheating" or less accuracy when passing awkwardly, it only deals with the fact that the 8-way D-pad + no power bar for passing means the game needs to make way too many guesses and judgments that you might not at all have wanted (these guesses and judgments being handled by a AI "script" or "system" rather than at the hands of the analog stick and by you).
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 08/18/07)

I've seen many an occasion when Zlatan for example has used his strength and uber skills to get past 3/4 players.

It happens in real life so what have Konami done wrong?

e.g. Messi' goal vs Getafe this year, he doesn't do it every game but he has the attributes to do it so people should stop criticizing Konami unnecessarily.


To be honest, I saw lots of that in PES6 aswell, Adriano/Zlatan walking past defenders that just stood there, casually waving their feet at futile attempts to get the ball. So saying it is something new seems rather undetailed in my opinion.

Besides, in real football there is always the option to use your body to stop a player like Zlatan. Sure, he is big and has balance, but if I stand directly in front of him, he willencounter some resistance. In PES6, yuor defenders would just slide out of the way, even though you had your entire shoulder in the way, or the leg, hip etc. And once you have seen enough instances of the ball passing completely through your defenders foot instead of being deflected off it, you sort of loose the enthusiasm. ;)

Excellent response about Zlatan/Adriano twats that win games only because monstrous body balance.

In real life Zlatan can pass 3/4 defenders with his ability and strength. In PES/WE anyone can pass through defenders with Zlatan only using his strength (aka body balance). Is that realism? Nope, it is stupid. I have seen people win games only because Zlatan or Adriano have the red arrow. They are simply UNSTOPPABLE, even if you have Ferdinand or Nesta with red arrows.

I do understand Drogba can do that kind of thing... but Adriano? Zlatan? Please, give me a break. Adriano are more worried about parties and Zlatan is a real good player, but he is not God. It is ridiculous he has a 97 in balance... damn, I understand Drogba, the guy receives a lot of contact and he seems to be made of rock... but Zlatan is not like Drogba...

It is nonsense to see how a player can win a game by himself. That is not football.
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 08/18/07)

One thing i'm pretty sure about is, i'll be dissapointed when i see the gameplay video. That's just me though. It happens to me every year with every video of the new pes installment because i tend to compare it to real football matches (like watching the real thing). I know i shouldn't be doing that because i shouldn't expect alot from a game. Only when i play the game for a while i feel satisfied.
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 08/18/07)

Yeah, I am not talking about the script that "balances" matches and such, to make sure you don't always win easily even if you have a good team etc. I generally refer to that match balancing as scripting aswell.

WHat I am referring to is the core gameplay where passpowers are predetermined, and where there is no way to user-control powers and aim completely (ie they are controlled by parameters and systems in the game, or "scripts" (might be a poor choice of words, but I can't think of a better one).
So if you press the d-pad to the right and then press the pass-button, the pass "scripts" or "systems" will determine which player you _might_ have wanted to pass to, and what speed you might have wanted on the pass.

Problem is that the AI will never be as good as I am at judging what aim or power a pass needs to be optimal for MY intentions (I might want to strike a loose pass since I immediately after intend to then make a direct-pass to another player. But since the game "pass system" doesn't know that, it might instead opt for a harder pass, which means that my player has troubles receiving the ball, causing the player to not be able to strike a good clean direct-touch to a teammate.

Or inversely, I might want to strike a really hard pass to a teammate because I see an opponent already moving in to intercept the pass-path. But the game opts for a normal-speed pass which then causes the pass to be intercepted. I might also have wanted to be on the safe side and aim slightly to the side of my player, to put even more distance between the ball and the opponent so as to avoid an interception. But because the aim is determined completely by the game, chances are it will completely disregard this aspect aswell.


So the scripting you refer to would sometimes affect the scripts I am referring to (causing the scripts (or systems) for pass aim etc to become poorer so as to make it harder for you to win and play well).

But even if you remove the "Cheating" script (so that there is no bias whatsoever at any point), there still remains the fact that the AI controlls for example pass speeds and aims instead of you, which again is like playing a FPS (a game that requires lots of skill and precision from the player to learn to aim properly to always hit the head for a clean kill for example) with forced auto-aim that completely removes almost any skills from the game (meaning that an 8-year old can strike passes as well as I can, as long as they can learn to push the pass button and basically operate the d-pad). If we could use the analog stick with pass power bar, the 8-year old would need alot of practice to learn when to use certain powers for the passes, how to aim properly with the analog stick to give the ball a good starting direction (player pass accuracies will more or less, depending on stats, corrupt your original intention).

I think that explains it better, I realize the "scripting" word might be most associated with "CPU cheating". ;)

This a seriously darn good explanation
 
Re: WE/PES 2008 Next Gen - Discussions Thread (Last Update 08/18/07)

Jesus...SO many people acting like little bitches in here lol

Just wait for the fucking game to come out...Fools writing fucking essays hahaha...Fucking Newbies
 
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