The Retrogaming Thread! [8-bit/16-bit/32-bit/64-bit]

[Madmac79]

Talking about censorship. I've been replaying Duke Nukem 3d in the last two weeks or something. Already finished the first and the second episode in a couple hours (well, I remember most things and I'm doing a quite a bit of save scumming ).. man, what an incredible, still fresh masterpiece, from any point of view. It's even better than I remember it to be. I'd like to do a through post about classic fps of that era when I'll be done with the third original episode. That said, between the black humour, the strippers and all the other obscenities I can't see a mainstream game like this ever making it in 2022 lol.

Do you guys like this kind of FPS? i've always had the impression of the forum being a little cold towards the Dooms, the Quakes, the Dukes etc. but perhaps it's just a, uh, impression

 

[millossobek]

You know it's funny bro @Madmac79 I was just about to post how I'm a huge fan of Doom. It's funny I'm not much of a fan of modern FPS but I love Doom and the old school ones, they're just more appealing to me. Duke Nukem is a great game too, and also Wolfenstein of course the one that started it all, but I have a special place for Doom, especially with all the WADs (which for those of you who don't know, are levels created by fans which replace the entire game!) When I was a kid, I really enjoyed the "Vanilla" Doom 1 and 2, but now with all these WADS, (there are literally thousands of them, and a lot of them have very high quality), it's like a thousand different games into one, the possibilities to play are really endless! One of the best WADs is one called "Return to Saturn X", which is really amazing and has such cool level design.. So yes, I'm a big fan of retrogaming FPS, especially Doom 2 and its WADs!!

 

[slamsoze]

Talking about censorship. I've been replaying Duke Nukem 3d in the last two weeks or something. Already finished the first and the second episode in a couple hours (well, I remember most things and I'm doing a quite a bit of save scumming ).. man, what an incredible, still fresh masterpiece, from any point of view. It's even better than I remember it to be. I'd like to do a through post about classic fps of that era when I'll be done with the third original episode. That said, between the black humour, the strippers and all the other obscenities I can't see a mainstream game like this ever making it in 2022 lol.

Do you guys like this kind of FPS? i've always had the impression of the forum being a little cold towards the Dooms, the Quakes, the Dukes etc. but perhaps it's just a, uh, impression

Well FPS especially when NOT on a mouse+keyboard, is usually a killer for me. And even in PC set up, i am very rigid, need my own mouse pad (yes i am still using a mouse pad back from 2005, it is the only one that it has the perfect balance in MATTE/GLOSSY surface) my own familiar keyboard, my specific mouse.

In console it is usually a torture for me. From my very first situation, A RAmbo game in Sega Genesis, where it had a FPS mini-game, you had to shoot a helicopter. Only in Starfox Adventure in SNES, i tended to switch to First Person, although you are piloting a spacecraft, not totally FPS, but first person piloting and shooting. It was from the very few that i enjoyed the experience, as i were in a spacecraft cockpit.

Bad usually i am very bad to FPS, especially with analogue stick, name it GTA V, Watchdogs, James Bond Golden Eye in N64 (the well known masterpiece), or even James Bond tommorow never dies in PSX, although IIRC it was Third PErson, and First Person only when you had a sniper. Well i needed a lot of cheat codes to finish that game with dual analogue.

Btw, now that i mention, that game, was very fun to me, cause it had a lot of concepts, you could make ski in mission, snowbaord IIRC, fly a plane, it mixed a lot aspects.

 

[Madmac79]

You know it's funny bro @Madmac79 I was just about to post how I'm a huge fan of Doom. It's funny I'm not much of a fan of modern FPS but I love Doom and the old school ones, they're just more appealing to me. Duke Nukem is a great game too, and also Wolfenstein of course the one that started it all, but I have a special place for Doom, especially with all the WADs (which for those of you who don't know, are levels created by fans which replace the entire game!) When I was a kid, I really enjoyed the "Vanilla" Doom 1 and 2, but now with all these WADS, (there are literally thousands of them, and a lot of them have very high quality), it's like a thousand different games into one, the possibilities to play are really endless! One of the best WADs is one called "Return to Saturn X", which is really amazing and has such cool level design.. So yes, I'm a big fan of retrogaming FPS, especially Doom 2 and its WADs!!

Man I love Doom, especially Doom 2, probably the FPS I'm the most fond of in absolute. Duke 3d was generally way more advanced when it came out, and don't get me wrong it holds a very special place in my heart as well, but leaving aside how incredibly entertaining it was gameplay wise, Doom 2 settings, lore and atmosphere.. unsurpassable. Loved that the plot was only hinted but there were plenty of things to let your imagination fly. Maybe it's in my top three all time favourites or something.

Yeah, modding community is incredible. In a certain sense it reminds me the retro Pes one, possibily even stronger cause they are keeping alive basically a single, really old game with any kind of creative ideas. Thousands of quality levels, total conversions and whatnot.. for example I didn't knew the WAD you posted and it absolutely looks fantastic. Don't know if you are a fan, but I also really loved to replay Doom 2 with the Brutal Doom thing (for who isn't familiar, a total conversion that adds lot of features like jumping, fatalities, new fire modes and weapons, enemy characteristics etc. etc.). It really spice and fresh things up without betraying the original spirit (at least imho).

I also agree about modern FPS.. if we exclude some exception, definitely not a huge fan. For example I bought and played the 2016 Doom but even if it was a critical and public success, I personally never understood the fuzz lol, found it quite repetitive with the all "stay locked in an area, clean and then move and repeat" thing.. nothing to do with the exploration and the pace of the classics (although I must admit the new Doom Slayer lore rocks). Modern Wolfensteins, on the opposite I liked enough.. was a HUGE fan of Return to Castle Wolfenstein (although you could argue it probably isn't modern at all ), and enjoyed a lot The New Order as well. Others like The New Colossus I still have to try.

I'd love to replay other classics FPS I missed at the times or barely touch, especially the ones from the Duke's Build Engine (like Blood, Shadow Warrior, maybe even Redneck Rampage), but unfortunately many versions I've found around aren't as good as the restored Duke one that is around. There also are the Hexen and Heretics but I've never been very attracted to those. Well we'll see

Well FPS especially when NOT on a mouse+keyboard, is usually a killer for me. And even in PC set up, i am very rigid, need my own mouse pad (yes i am still using a mouse pad back from 2005, it is the only one that it has the perfect balance in MATTE/GLOSSY surface) my own familiar keyboard, my specific mouse.

In console it is usually a torture for me. From my very first situation, A RAmbo game in Sega Genesis, where it had a FPS mini-game, you had to shoot a helicopter. Only in Starfox Adventure in SNES, i tended to switch to First Person, although you are piloting a spacecraft, not totally FPS, but first person piloting and shooting. It was from the very few that i enjoyed the experience, as i were in a spacecraft cockpit.

Bad usually i am very bad to FPS, especially with analogue stick, name it GTA V, Watchdogs, James Bond Golden Eye in N64 (the well known masterpiece), or even James Bond tommorow never dies in PSX, although IIRC it was Third PErson, and First Person only when you had a sniper. Well i needed a lot of cheat codes to finish that game with dual analogue.

Btw, now that i mention, that game, was very fun to me, cause it had a lot of concepts, you could make ski in mission, snowbaord IIRC, fly a plane, it mixed a lot aspects.

Yeah I completely agree, usually can't play an FPS with the pad. Feels so counterintuitive.. as of today I could never play one without the strife as it is on the keyboard for example. In fact I think I never played true FPS on consoles for long.. with third person shooters like GTA and similar it was easier.

The PSX game of 007 looks really nice! I'm also a fan of many concepts coming togheter. I wonder how many hidden gems like this one are out especially on PSX that feels like having a never ending roster of unheard, yet really good games.

 

[millossobek]

I didn't knew the WAD you posted and it absolutely looks fantastic. Don't know if you are a fan, but I also really loved to replay Doom 2 with the Brutal Doom thing (for who isn't familiar, a total conversion that adds lot of features like jumping, fatalities, new fire modes and weapons, enemy characteristics etc. etc.). It really spice and fresh things up without betraying the original spirit (at least imho).

Right! I've tried the Doom with the new features and it's pretty cool, since like you say it has cool additions while still retaining the original spirit! Right now though, I'm all about exploring the "classic gameplay" WADS with the classic enemies and weapons.. Wanted to ask you.. What WAD's do you recommend that follow this style? I'm looking for a new one to play after Return to Saturn X episode 2.

 

[Madmac79]

Right! I've tried the Doom with the new features and it's pretty cool, since like you say it has cool additions while still retaining the original spirit! Right now though, I'm all about exploring the "classic gameplay" WADS with the classic enemies and weapons.. Wanted to ask you.. What WAD's do you recommend that follow this style? I'm looking for a new one to play after Return to Saturn X episode 2.

Sorry mate, it has been a reeeally a long time since I've searched for vanilla wads, unfortunately I don't think I can be of any help to you here. I've been more in the total conversion thing

 

[millossobek]

Hey guys I'm a huge fan of the Simcity franchise for PC (my favorites are 2, 3000, and 4). I can't even remember how many hours I've spent playing these editions. To me there was nothing like creating your map and your city, watching it grow from a humble agricultural village to a metropolis full of skyscrapers, with their problems, traffic, land values etc.. And building areas with so much different personalities. My favorite out of the bunch is Simcity 4 (released in 2003), which still has a massive community of mods. I installed literally thousands of Asian architecture buildings and created massive cities with invented Japanese and Korean names.. But it doesn't stop there as the mods have European, American, and even South American architecture! Another example of a brilliant game being enhanced by the community! I tried playing the newest simcity skylines but didn't like it too much, it has great graphics but it misses the charm of these other old school titles.. Any other classic Simcity fans out there? 🏢 🏙️

 

[vialli82]

Never played those type of games (Sim city, Theme park etc.) but i've heard it was fun.

Ah yes, Command and Conquer / Red Alert on PS1 i don't remember if it was the first or the second, but we laughed a lot with it at a friend house.

Especially on a mission where you need to protect the Russian or whatever president when he was driving. But he was driving like an ass and one sentence i will always remember, with his East asian accent (in sub french) "i got the priority!"

It was completely wtf, you made explode tons of tanks, planes to protect him and he was saying bullshit all the time totally off context, he doesn't care
That one is not normally a game i would have played but the 2nd degree on the game was awesome.

Ah yes @Madmac79 : i didn't got a PS1 but played at a friend house at Duke Nukem 1 and 3 (Land of Babes), it was kinda the same tone looking like a super-anti-hero with tons of sentences on it and scene very limit, but it was the 90's from 90 to more than 2000, there was by far more freedom of speech and doing stuffs, we were totally aware that all wasn't to take seriously. Everything is aseptic now. Even when i play the new God Of War, i can't imagine the same stuffs as it was on 2005, don't remember when it was out.

Like @slamsoze said on the retro-pes thread with, even, the smoke or flare on the pitch or the referee nationality... And boooh stuffs, that part of reality and makes some good ambiance. I don't see what's wrong with it.

But whatever it is, it's directly a scandal as some big association hire profits on it.
Even if it's just as simple representation, or a joke or whatever else. Fortunately, in Belgium there's exceptions, but we're not that "stuck up" and we got a lot of auto-derision.
Thailand is weak and Germany strong. That's a fact, and even about some references : for example Kazuki Ito was giving quick red card as in Japan, football was less physical. Simple, but even if it was some kind of preconceived ideas etc. as long as it's not clearly insulting... What do we care.
Sorry for the looonnngg O.T. but the actual era we live in often really pisses me off.

Well some vids then:

Command and Conquer : Red Alert (PS1 version here, but out on PC first, probably on Saturn too etc.)




And and awesome exclusive game on PS1 with (in french) the real voice of Bruce Willis if you remember, it was/stil pretty fun :

Apocalypse (PS1)





And finally another one exclusive which i really loved, explosion blood and fun, not really subtle but we didn't cared (there was a demo was on the PS1 "Demo 1" disc, on the first versions)

LOADED (PS1, then out on Saturn)
Note : i didn't liked the 2nd that much replayed 3 years ago "Re-Loaded". Looks like another game.

 

[Madmac79]

@vialli82 unfortunately I haven't played the Duke Ps1 games, will put them on the enormous list of the things I have to recover. For the rest.. completely agree with all you said about our era. Also Loaded and apocalypse looks nice; now that you mentioned Bruce Willis voice in game, I also remember people talked alot about Die Hard Trilogy on Psx, which also had his original voice.. another game unluckily I haven't played.

On the opposite, back in the days I really liked C&C: Red Alert (which was the second chapter). It had some kind of particular humour as well indeed lol. To this day I still remember a lot of the units phrases and jokes. Except from that, great story, great gameplay etc., unfortunately from a certain point onwards it was too difficult.. never got to finish it.

@millossobek While of course it's a masterpiece, unluckily I could never really get in Sim City myself, I like builders on paper but the few I stack with it's cause they usually have some particular lore or something. For example, the last true "mainstream" builder I throughly played was Jurassic Park Operation Genesis (2003), being myself a huge fan of the franchise and the game so well done it was a truly great experience.

And Dwarf Fortress.. for which probably an hundred thousand lines wouldn't be enough. It's an indie, freeware builder set in a fantasy lore, in costant development since 20 years. Graphics it's ascii but there also are some nice basic tileset of sprites for who prefers it. It all looks super retro (which to me is a plus anyway ) but to put it short it's probably the deepest game I've ever played, so full of randomness and features that it constantly generates incredible stories. Problem is that between the terrible interface and the general difficulty it's kinda hard to get into, but it's all more than worth to me. I like to preach it around whenever I can.
Here is a short review that will give you a basic intro:


even if you don't want to fully get into it I suggest you guys to give a look to the most popular stories (you'll find plenty on Reddit for example), there are some damn great reads that will give you an idea of how genious this work is.

 

[slamsoze]

Never played those type of games (Sim city, Theme park etc.) but i've heard it was fun.

Ah yes, Command and Conquer / Red Alert on PS1 i don't remember if it was the first or the second, but we laughed a lot with it at a friend house.

Especially on a mission where you need to protect the Russian or whatever president when he was driving. But he was driving like an ass and one sentence i will always remember, with his East asian accent (in sub french) "i got the priority!"

It was completely wtf, you made explode tons of tanks, planes to protect him and he was saying bullshit all the time totally off context, he doesn't care
That one is not normally a game i would have played but the 2nd degree on the game was awesome.

Ah yes @Madmac79 : i didn't got a PS1 but played at a friend house at Duke Nukem 1 and 3 (Land of Babes), it was kinda the same tone looking like a super-anti-hero with tons of sentences on it and scene very limit, but it was the 90's from 90 to more than 2000, there was by far more freedom of speech and doing stuffs, we were totally aware that all wasn't to take seriously. Everything is aseptic now. Even when i play the new God Of War, i can't imagine the same stuffs as it was on 2005, don't remember when it was out.

Like @slamsoze said on the retro-pes thread with, even, the smoke or flare on the pitch or the referee nationality... And boooh stuffs, that part of reality and makes some good ambiance. I don't see what's wrong with it.

But whatever it is, it's directly a scandal as some big association hire profits on it.
Even if it's just as simple representation, or a joke or whatever else. Fortunately, in Belgium there's exceptions, but we're not that "stuck up" and we got a lot of auto-derision.
Thailand is weak and Germany strong. That's a fact, and even about some references : for example Kazuki Ito was giving quick red card as in Japan, football was less physical. Simple, but even if it was some kind of preconceived ideas etc. as long as it's not clearly insulting... What do we care.
Sorry for the looonnngg O.T. but the actual era we live in often really pisses me off.

Well some vids then:

Command and Conquer : Red Alert (PS1 version here, but out on PC first, probably on Saturn too etc.)




And and awesome exclusive game on PS1 with (in french) the real voice of Bruce Willis if you remember, it was/stil pretty fun :

Apocalypse (PS1)





And finally another one exclusive which i really loved, explosion blood and fun, not really subtle but we didn't cared (there was a demo was on the PS1 "Demo 1" disc, on the first versions)

LOADED (PS1, then out on Saturn)
Note : i didn't liked the 2nd that much replayed 3 years ago "Re-Loaded". Looks like another game.

I was always a die hard fan of those RTS games, but on PC, it's also a case, how anyone plays this without a mouse and keyboard for hotkeys functions?

Is this as "easy" as on PC? The controlling and scrolling with gamepad?

Also i think i read somewhere recently about StarCraft 64, it was praised cause it was developed in 2000, while the PC version in 1998 and the MacOS in 1999, so it had some mambo-jumbo gimmicks that pushed the N64 a little bit far, bit in cost of other things, like no speech in mission breefing, or no multiplayer, but it was stated that the 64 controls in contrast with PC , were a lot tricky.
I can't recall the article now, but the writer was swearing, that if mouse+keyboard, and multiplayer was possible in N64, it would be superior to the OG PC version...

Little bit off topic now...
Which sound strange to me, cause i think a good PC in 1998 was better than N64 console. I don't remember if there were "high end PCs" back then, to be honest...

For example FIFA 99 , i played it both in PC and N64. Even if there looked better colours in N64, it had some little cuts, like microstutters, while the PC was more smooth amd stable, in performance. But to be honestly here, i think every console game had microstutering back then, 1999~2000, but no one was giving attention to that staff back them, in mean, fps, fps dropps, stuttering, tearimg, etc, those were parts of a lot games..

What i remember, that a lot games had maximum caps in requirements, meaning that they weren't pushing the games and the hardware to the maximum, like happens today . I mean today the games have Minimum amd Recommended requirements to play them, so for the maximum cap, sky is the limit, it is up to customers PC. Back in the 90s and early 00s , i remember a lot PC games, had Minimum, Recommended and Maximum requirements, as there may was some type of cap.??? ..Not sure, end of OT.....


Now in Starcraft again...
There was also a PS1 port on plans, but it was dismissed, and N64 was picked.

From Starcraft Wikipedia:

Nintendo 64 versionEdit​

In 2000, StarCraft 64 was released in North America for the Nintendo 64, co-developed by Blizzard Entertainment and Mass Media Inc. and published by Nintendo.[3] The game featured all of the missions from both StarCraft and the expansion Brood War, as well as some exclusive missions, such as two different tutorials and a new secret mission, Resurrection IV.[62] Blizzard Entertainment had previously considered a PlayStation port of the game, but it was decided that the game would instead be released on the Nintendo 64.[63] Resurrection IV is set after the conclusion of Brood War, and follows Jim Raynor embarking on a mission to rescue the Brood War character Alexei Stukov, a vice admiral from Earth who has been captured by the Zerg. The Brood War missions required the use of a Nintendo 64 memory Expansion Pak to run.[64] In addition, StarCraft 64 features a split screen cooperative mode, also requiring the expansion pak, allowing two players to control one force in-game.[65] StarCraft 64 lacked the online multiplayer capabilities and speech in mission briefings. In addition, cut scenes were shortened.[62] StarCraft 64 was a runner-up for GameSpot's annual "Best Game Story" and "Best Strategy Game" awards among console games, which went respectively to Summoner and Ogre Battle 64.[66]


https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/StarCraft_(video_game)

 

[slamsoze]

@vialli82 unfortunately I haven't played the Duke Ps1 games, will put them on the enormous list of the things I have to recover. For the rest.. completely agree with all you said about our era. Also Loaded and apocalypse looks nice; now that you mentioned Bruce Willis voice in game, I also remember people talked alot about Die Hard Trilogy on Psx, which also had his original voice.. another game unluckily I haven't played.

On the opposite, back in the days I really liked C&C: Red Alert (which was the second chapter). It had some kind of particular humour as well indeed lol. To this day I still remember a lot of the units phrases and jokes. Except from that, great story, great gameplay etc., unfortunately from a certain point onwards it was too difficult.. never got to finish it.

@millossobek While of course it's a masterpiece, unluckily I could never really get in Sim City myself, I like builders on paper but the few I stack with it's cause they usually have some particular lore or something. For example, the last true "mainstream" builder I throughly played was Jurassic Park Operation Genesis (2003), being myself a huge fan of the franchise and the game so well done it was a truly great experience.

And Dwarf Fortress.. for which probably an hundred thousand lines wouldn't be enough. It's an indie, freeware builder set in a fantasy lore, in costant development since 20 years. Graphics it's ascii but there also are some nice basic tileset of sprites for who prefers it. It all looks super retro (which to me is a plus anyway ) but to put it short it's probably the deepest game I've ever played, so full of randomness and features that it constantly generates incredible stories. Problem is that between the terrible interface and the general difficulty it's kinda hard to get into, but it's all more than worth to me. I like to preach it around whenever I can.
Here is a short review that will give you a basic intro:


even if you don't want to fully get into it I suggest you guys to give a look to the most popular stories (you'll find plenty on Reddit for example), there are some damn great reads that will give you an idea of how genious this work is.

Never played those type of games (Sim city, Theme park etc.) but i've heard it was fun.

Ah yes, Command and Conquer / Red Alert on PS1 i don't remember if it was the first or the second, but we laughed a lot with it at a friend house.

Especially on a mission where you need to protect the Russian or whatever president when he was driving. But he was driving like an ass and one sentence i will always remember, with his East asian accent (in sub french) "i got the priority!"

It was completely wtf, you made explode tons of tanks, planes to protect him and he was saying bullshit all the time totally off context, he doesn't care
That one is not normally a game i would have played but the 2nd degree on the game was awesome.

Ah yes @Madmac79 : i didn't got a PS1 but played at a friend house at Duke Nukem 1 and 3 (Land of Babes), it was kinda the same tone looking like a super-anti-hero with tons of sentences on it and scene very limit, but it was the 90's from 90 to more than 2000, there was by far more freedom of speech and doing stuffs, we were totally aware that all wasn't to take seriously. Everything is aseptic now. Even when i play the new God Of War, i can't imagine the same stuffs as it was on 2005, don't remember when it was out.

Like @slamsoze said on the retro-pes thread with, even, the smoke or flare on the pitch or the referee nationality... And boooh stuffs, that part of reality and makes some good ambiance. I don't see what's wrong with it.

But whatever it is, it's directly a scandal as some big association hire profits on it.
Even if it's just as simple representation, or a joke or whatever else. Fortunately, in Belgium there's exceptions, but we're not that "stuck up" and we got a lot of auto-derision.
Thailand is weak and Germany strong. That's a fact, and even about some references : for example Kazuki Ito was giving quick red card as in Japan, football was less physical. Simple, but even if it was some kind of preconceived ideas etc. as long as it's not clearly insulting... What do we care.
Sorry for the looonnngg O.T. but the actual era we live in often really pisses me off.

Well some vids then:

Command and Conquer : Red Alert (PS1 version here, but out on PC first, probably on Saturn too etc.)




And and awesome exclusive game on PS1 with (in french) the real voice of Bruce Willis if you remember, it was/stil pretty fun :

Apocalypse (PS1)





And finally another one exclusive which i really loved, explosion blood and fun, not really subtle but we didn't cared (there was a demo was on the PS1 "Demo 1" disc, on the first versions)

LOADED (PS1, then out on Saturn)
Note : i didn't liked the 2nd that much replayed 3 years ago "Re-Loaded". Looks like another game.

Also I forgot to mention on C&C, i remember my cousin who was a purist, or an elitist, or just a jackass, he always preferred Tiberian Sun over Red Alert...

He used to say that Red Alert is for the casuals and the kids, while Tiberian Sun was for purists... Don't ask why, i told ya he was/is still a jerk!!!

 

[millossobek]

@Madmac79 Dwarf Fortress definitely looks like a very deep game. It really looks like the kind of game where if you can go past the interface (very much retro, for people with imagination and who can overlook it), it sounds like quite an experience! Actually like you said bro, the retro look adds a nice feel to it. I read a bit into it and I like the randomness of and the multiple stories. Pretty cool.

In terms of strategy games, perhaps the deepest one I've ever played (the tutorial only takes about 4 hours to complete, lol ), is Romance of the Three Kingdoms XI. I absolutely love this series, this along with Nobunaga's Ambition (which I will probably write about in another post), are probably my set of favorite strategy/war games. One thing I love about ROTK and Nobunaga is that it has equal parts battle and strategy.. Plus as you guys probably know I really love the Ancient/Medieval Asian Civilizations and themes, so this is right up my alley.. (Also a huge emphasis on diplomacy, relationships between officers, rulers, etc..) Maybe not exactly retrogaming (as this edition was released in 2006, maybe a few years after we all consider "retro").. But I just wanted it to post it here because it definitely doesn't have the feel of a modern game, and it goes back to the spirit of the first ROTK's, released in the 80's and 90's. You guys should give it a try if you like deep, involved strategy games, and Ancient Chinese lore and history. 🐉

 

[Madmac79]

@slamsoze I don't know, people playing RTS with pads feels even more alien than the ones playing FPS this way to me.. maybe it's cause I "grew" playing classic RTS with keyboard and mouse, the only thought of playing one on console feels automatically frustrating lol.

Interesting observations about the graphics and comparisons between consoles/pc. Yeah I think too pcs were better than consoles back then. What I liked about N64 was that polygons were way less blunt than on Psx and Saturn.. but you also had that blur effect that enveloped everything while conversely 32 bit consoles had brighter games. And anyway, I remember as well playing Fifa 99 on N64 at a friends house.. compared with the one I had on a Pc with a 3dfx, it looked quite bad indeed. In the end they often marketed technical miracles, but I don't think there was anything that medium/good pc couldn't have done as well.. it more all came down to the fact consoles had all those incredible exclusives pcs didn't.

Back to the RTS, I was a Warcraft fanboy. Adored Warcraft 2 and 3.. and it's such a shame modern era, with the sucess of World of Warcraft, probably forever rob us of a Warcraft 4.. or, if it ever came out, I bet it will be some awful online only (sic) thing, possibly mobile too.

Don't know if it's me but RTS feels like a dying genre unfortunately. Last one I really loved was Dawn of War 2.. the sequel of some years ago was another underwhelming thing. Seems noone is interested anymore in projecting good campaigns or stories. Online is really devouring all.

@millossobek modern ROTK looks really nice. I remember seen classic ones on Steam, they were appealing but unfortunately lacked tradution fron chinese iirc.

 

[vialli82]

Well about FPS, since the Dual analog stick, there's no problem any more + the triggers... But before, yes it was perhaps harder especially for PC owners.
My example, i owned my first PC way after all the PC FPS ported stuffs so, let's say i personally couldn't be at ease at all to start with a combo key+mouse.
But i will get used to it depending the FPS i'll explain:

Some FPS are calibrated to be played more with a controller than a combo keyboard/mouse, it's kinda simple:
Those where the movement of the player is as much important and you need more than 8 directions, moving on 360 degrees and speed up or down your character depending your impulsion on the stick.
Destiny for example and some others FPS which the player's control is very important, is to me at least much based to be played with a controller than a key/mouse. Some are to me the same with or without, i could play with both, like the new DOOM.

There's one thing that's sure : it's far far easier to play and FPS with a controller than many cars games. We grown up with racing games with a controller since we're kids, so you may think it's more natural...
But those type of games got an increasing evolution in terms of controls that i can say every single racing game with one or two exception (Wipeout for example) is by far easier with a combo Wheel/pedals, and some are literally unplayable with any other thing than that.

Now strategies games.... Well for that let's say there's no games like Warcraft really made to be played with a controller, but you can handle it with some tricky stuffs, the pointer and a button to make it faster or slower etc. but i repeat it's tricky for point'n'click games (some you can take all the time you want like Broken Sword, Disworld, but "in-live" strategy such as @Madmac79 as posted... I got really hard to imagine it played on something else than a PC

Like many games are far better with a controller. Or some fighting game are made for a controller (MK9,10,11) but try to compete with someone owning an Arcade stick + 6 buttons like SF series / well there's many E-sports players who cames with a controller but they're perhaps 10% to be kind.

 

[slamsoze]

@slamsoze I don't know, people playing RTS with pads feels even more alien than the ones playing FPS this way to me.. maybe it's cause I "grew" playing classic RTS with keyboard and mouse, the only thought of playing one on console feels automatically frustrating lol.

Interesting observations about the graphics and comparisons between consoles/pc. Yeah I think too pcs were better than consoles back then. What I liked about N64 was that polygons were way less blunt than on Psx and Saturn.. but you also had that blur effect that enveloped everything while conversely 32 bit consoles had brighter games. And anyway, I remember as well playing Fifa 99 on N64 at a friends house.. compared with the one I had on a Pc with a 3dfx, it looked quite bad indeed. In the end they often marketed technical miracles, but I don't think there was anything that medium/good pc couldn't have done as well.. it more all came down to the fact consoles had all those incredible exclusives pcs didn't.

Back to the RTS, I was a Warcraft fanboy. Adored Warcraft 2 and 3.. and it's such a shame modern era, with the sucess of World of Warcraft, probably forever rob us of a Warcraft 4.. or, if it ever came out, I bet it will be some awful online only (sic) thing, possibly mobile too.

Don't know if it's me but RTS feels like a dying genre unfortunately. Last one I really loved was Dawn of War 2.. the sequel of some years ago was another underwhelming thing. Seems noone is interested anymore in projecting good campaigns or stories. Online is really devouring all.

@millossobek modern ROTK looks really nice. I remember seen classic ones on Steam, they were appealing but unfortunately lacked tradution fron chinese iirc.

As for Warcraft III, i was also obsessed. I was ready to buy Warcraft III Reforged, the remastered version by Battlenet/Blizzard e-store, but i read so many bad reviews , that i holded back. Seems like a cash-grab.

For me, the GOAT of RTS, the PES 5 of RTS, i think i've said again in the past, was Empire Earth 1 and its expansion, Art of Conquest. Maybe it lacks in scenario, and diversity , compared to Age of Empires , C&C, and other strategy games of that era, but purely gameplay wise, it is from the most friendly and slow actioned RTS i've eveer played. Used to play this LAN with my classmates in internet cafes back then, and every battle lasted about 4 hours minimun, having always as houserule, first 30 minutes mandatory PEACE time, to build up some Civilization before we start battles.

About 10 years ago, i joined in fan-made servers, via Voobly or other platforms, but it was very inconviniet to play against stargers. And apart from this, everybody was playing in a super-speed meta playstyle. Instead of build a city or something, every one was just gathering specific resources, just to build some hunders of the most efficient units, IIRC there were some type of archers, and come and raid your base in the first 20 minutes....It was soooo sad...Add to this that the other players were playing like some PRO-player madmen, clicking 1,000,000 mouse clicks per second, as we were playing the World Finals of League of Legends...

I mean, marketing has slowly killed the RTS genre for sure, but this attidute of some hardcore-meta wannabe pro players, is killing the genre totally for any casual newcomer...

To conclude this, after i studied how to play the META in internet and Youtube, i did also the same, but it removes all the enjoy of the game. It was not anymore a stategy game. It was just a deatchmatch, were whoever clicks the mouse faster, wins in 10 minutes...It was more a fighting game than a stategy!

Another RTS, with space setting i like back in the 90's, was Dark Colony, developed by a company named Alternative Reality Technologies, now as i check , they have transformed to a Rockstar Studio, Rockstar Toronto, so i think it is a retrospective positive!!


What i liked about this RTS, in contrast to any other similar RTS of that era, was the gameplay that was much slower, cause the unites had more HP, so battles lasting longer, and giving you time to set up your strategy. What i did not like in the others RTS , Starcraft, C&C, KKnD, KKnD : Crossfire, was that the battles were too fast, you could find your self in a place with 30 untis, and by a bad move, the next 3 seconds you are withou any army.

Here in Dark Colony, everything used to happen slower, and with better pace, so loosing a battle near your base, you still had time to re-arrange your last standing defense, inside your base. Also it was of the first RTS, that had night/day circle.

Of course this is a personal preference, and this game seems very un-popular, not many people know about it, for some reason.
I would strongly suggest it, to anyone that likes C&C or Starcraft.

 

[vialli82]

It's like also, for NES, when there was a pack for Arkanoid (one of my favourite game of all time) who was sold with a special controller :



I personally played with a button to accelerate or keep the normal speed, if i remember the first one i played was on C64... But so much fun.
The successor of Pong, even if the first was called Breakout (really old, black and white) it missed some graphical and controls stuffs like shooting etc.

Those who build some Arcade cabinet with complete package (well, for racing game they need a second cabinet lol) with for example Retroarch with a support like Emulationstation to navigate often research those type of "roll" sorry i don't remember the name.

But the price is super high for one for arcade : practically the price of a cheap combo wheel/pedals without chair, i found some like like around 200-300 euros if i remember well.

I would love to get some place and money to spend for all of it, but well i don't have an elastic wallet.
There's also tons of Arcade games i've already presented that can't give the same sensation without the whole arcade cabinet (i forgot to mention Thunder Blade with litterally and helicopter controller.... They ported the game with difficulty but it's still a good amusing game on Megadrive or PC Engine)



EDIT/ Forgot to post >


Arkanoid/
Nes Version for everyone here as you probably better known that one :




The version i played Commodore 64 and Arcade on spoiler for those who like to compare

Spoiler

Arkanoid C64 version > i post the one i rediscovered it other than in arcade (of course it was more beautiful on a CRT TV)



Now the real Arcade version, where you can see the movement of your... Spacialship (lol)
It was with a Vertical screen.

Really loved too the Doh it Again on Snes and all other consoles but well, same principle.

 

[slamsoze]

Now, enough with the RTS by me, cause i derail the conversation. Some nice finding i made recently. I was browsing to find a website, to play some retro games on the fly, online emulator through browser. Usually the most site i find have a lot of platforms, but you can usually go up to SNES/GENESIS generation. After that, from PSX/SATURN/64 and onwards, it usually crashes or don't load. Only the old era, plus usually the Gameboy Advance games, who are more LITE.

But this specific site is loading, i've tried a lot PSX, N64 games, and they all work.

I know it is not the best option, and having an emulator where you can setup everything is much-much more convenient, but for some trials on the fly, it is a legit solution. You can also set up controls, and it states it can detect gamepad, but i've not tried it, also for N64, the controls via keyboard are very tricky, but if you can get away, it is all good.

The link of the site is: https://www.retrogames.cc/

It is not about download roms, just play them online, some it seems 50-50 legit!!

I can't figure out, if the performance is up to PC power, or just the connection and the browser used, cause i have some issues in N64 games. I have not yet tired the gamecube games. If they play too, that will be a great success!!
_________________________________________________________________________________________________


Now, how i ended up here. I was searching by a PC at work, at break-time , to play some Q*Bert. I don't know if you know about Q*Bert. It is that tricky game, with that isometric graphics and pseudo-3D platform stages. What's the deal with this game, you will ask....

The deal is, that due to its constructure, it has from the trickiest controls, in the history of video gaming. And the fun part is, in the same time, the controls are the most simple in the history of games, you only move with Directional Pad. The problem is, you must either press the D-pad diagonally, or pick a relative set-up, where you must memorise that the directions are counter-clock wise or clock wise, IE if you press UP, you jump UP+right/left...resulting in, jumping on enemies, or jump from the edge of the stage, to the void, and loose a life.

In my GAmeboy, i used to play diagonaly, it was very tough, having to press diagonally in the GAmeboy d-pad all time, but i used to go to very far stages... Now i tried in SNES emulator, Q*Bert 3, and i can't even pass the 1st stage....

Plus it does not have diagonally control option, so i must either have crystal clear memory, or move the keyboard or the game pad diagonally, so the d-pad is in x-shape....Very tricky situation!!!!!

I believe this game, is from the hardest games to complete, just by its clumsy control options...


EDIT: Also the GAMEBOY version i played as i child, might look simplistic and for a child back then, nothing fascinating or amazing, but reading now the technology and the techs it used, it seems it was something a lot revolutionary, graphcis wise,for a 1992 game for GameBoy. Has also pseudo-3D in Gameboy!!!

 

[slamsoze]

And some other observations, after a long testing in that site, i posted above. I played a lot Football games, and other old sports games, but i wanna focus on Football.

I played some games, i had almost 20 years, like Hat Trick hero2 , for SNES in Japanese, i played a strange game, more like and Adventure/RPG/Footballe manager game, and maybe simulator, i went up till to a point where you train your players, but due to everything be in Japanese, have zero clue. There are playable matches, playable highlights...Don't know/

Zenkoku Kōkō Soccer​

So where i want to conclude. The King of games , in each platform i tried:

In SNES/GENESIS it is clearly the ISS and ISS Deluxe. I tried some FIFA again, finally FIFA 97 is the last to have indoor matches, but even from retro-spective, it is close to unplayable. Sometimes your player's sprite (animation) is running and the ball is kicked "magically" after a glare. It almost hurts the eyes, for a modern player. FIFA 98 on SNES, improved a lot gameplay aspects, the graphics, even the player sprites are closer to human than to chibi-style figures, but still far behind KONAMI's ISS and Deluxe games.

In N64, KONAMI's ISS 98 is still the king, every other footy game, FIFA 98, 99 included, looks too experimental. ISS 98 and ofcourse 64, 2000, but 1998 at its peak, looks again , as a game "from the future".

PS1 or PSX and the king is again KONAMI, KCET though, not KCEO, with ISS pro 98 and the ISS pro evo, PES 1 and 2 series. Every other footy, is either too experimental, or with a lot of issues, like RONALDO -V- FOOTBALL, or just outdated and behind KONAMI, like EA Sports FIFA for PSX, which after, FIFA 2000, stayed as a legacy-remastered edition of FIFA 2000, and did not jump the next-gen "FIFAs" of that era. IIRC FIFA 2001 or 2002 , was next gen back then, meaning the PC/PS2 version, or only the PS2 version. But the winner is clear KONAMI again.

Special mention the SEGA SATURN: I was sure Virtual Striker 1 was here, but seems i find, according to wikipedia ,that "Only two games in the series have been released on home consoles - Virtua Striker 2 (ver. 2000.1) for the Sega Dreamcast, and Virtua Striker 3 for the GameCube."

So the Sega Saturn port, was probably the Arcade i remember and not Sega Saturn. The only other proper footy game , i can recall in Saturn, was

Sega Worldwide Soccer 98 - Sega Saturn- Gameplay​

Not perfect, but not that terrible...

 

[slamsoze]

Just important update about the retrogames.cc .... GBC is not GameCube but gameboy color, so you can play up to N64 from home consoles and NDS from handhelds......

 

[vialli82]

Haha Q*bert is a legend mate, i think everyone knows it (here at least). But unfortunately i discovered the game a bit too late.

Like i owned too a legend game on Gameboy as i didn't got a NES : Megaman.
It was harder than the NES version, no joke, and it's not me saying it but every retro reviews as i looked at it:


Ah yes, some option often in 3D Isometric games (EA sports oldies) given the option for basic or legit control. Some don't like Solstice I and II on Snes.
But i didn't caried if it was harder to play with diagonals with the pad, i played "legit" sorry for the word as i felt more natural to me regarding the Isometric diagonal for my spaciality intelligence lol.

But for some racing games in isometric, it's another story and just with right and left to turn your car was feeling natural. For Q*bert type... Impossible.
The hardest to master (at the start) was Resident Evil on PS1, especially as every new panel was on another cam view.
I don't know if it's a hack or if the game was really out but there's a "Analog Stick" version for the 1st, didn't checked the other (i tried and it's much more easy, but still hard for shooting)

Now, i'll post another game in the same kind i also discovered on Master System, they were ported in every console i think, also on Gameboy.

As every where practically similar and very good ported on every console/PC, i post the arcade version.
Different colors palette, some different for the fun. Really impressive ball physics for the time, the devs were genius.



Marble Madness



Not quite hard you may think, after two or perhaps 3 levels... But the next became nightmares lol
Fortunately, it got a super handling and you could "feel" the ball. Not my favourite game but you can't switch it if you're a retro-lover.

One particularity : Megadrive version was the best graphically Arcade version included, something super rare to be mentioned.
If you remember some games better on console than Arcade graphically, i know there's some very oldies enhanced but the game was always a + version, not similar.

 

[vialli82]

I owned Sega Worldwide on Dreamcast as the seller said to me it was "superior" to Virtua Striker 2. Bullshit.
Super deceived, i brought Virtua Striker 2. I loved that game but since i played in the same time ISS Pro Evolution... I was naive and trough there were other football games like this on others support. But it was THE exception and i wasn't aware of it at the time.

I searched something less Arcade and similar to Iss Pro.
Yes it was less arcade, and not a so bad game but in pure term of football sensation there's no match with VS2. The Saturn version you posted seems different.
Some people still post Worldwide Soccer 2000 as an semi hidden gem etc., i don't know, but the feeling wasn't there for me.

Two weeks later i brought VS2 and was in heaven, ball physics, global ambiance, etc. even if all was arcade it was a masterpiece to me.
I won't post neither of the two as they were already posted.

Well back on track, one game i discovered later from one of my favourite action movie of all time :

Demolition Man (Megadrive)


The game is really great and fun, kinda like Robocop vs Terminator on the same console. @millossobek as a you like the run'n'gun game/plateform you would really like it. The player movement got a big variety and it feels super reactive.

Movie and anime got some very bad ports (so bad that every kind of anime/movie based got a sticker "bad" even before playing it)...
But i remember tons of very nice games. Bruce Lee : the story posted here, Rambo III etc.

Also one game i don't know if you played it in Arcade : same mood as "Asterix" in terms of humor, well the gameplay was good but not god level like Asterix arcade :

The Simpsons (Arcade : one of the first game you could play with 4 players)
Out also on DOS at the time and... C64 😅
Note : the game was also available on PS3 and X360 like many arcade oldies if you're interested

 

[Flipper the Priest]

PS1 or PSX and the king is again KONAMI, KCET though, not KCEO

Curveball:



That's from J.League Winning Eleven 98-99. It's of the ISS Pro 98 family, which is KCET, and plays like it. I wonder what's at the root of this anomaly.

 

[slamsoze]

Curveball:

View attachment 171786

That's from J.League Winning Eleven 98-99. It's of the ISS Pro 98 family, which is KCET, and plays like it. I wonder what's at the root of this anomaly.

By coincidence i just had similar experience.
Throughout my retro-retro madness, searching, i find some other subdivisions existed back then, more than the usual 2 we all know.

The ISS Game for Gameboy is by KCEN (Nagoya). I believe similar story. Of the ISS family (KCEO), of course much different , much inferior as it is for gameboy.

ISS gameboy created by KCE Nagoya


____________________________________________________________________________________________

While ISS series for Gameboy Color, ISS 2000, KCEO , much inferior to SNES ofcourse, same family ISS

 

[vialli82]

Konami Sapporo lol.

I know Consadole Sapporo and the "Sapporo Dome" but not KCES
Edit : also Nagoya Grampus but not KCEN

 

[slamsoze]

Now i want @vialli82 help here... As usually, when i go in full retro madness in footy games, i always end up in Super Side Kicks Soccer 3...This shite is always addictive as fack.....So the naive part of couldn't resist for another time... I played some matches, but this time given the chance, the

Neo Geo Cup '98: The Road to the Victory.​

I haven't tried it in the past, cause i always had issues with the Mame32 bios and this ROM. But now i got it!!! As wikipedia states, it is a "remastered" SSK3 basically, with a tone for the World Cup 1998.

As i said, i couldn't resist and i played some matches, never gets old this game, but neither do i!!!


A short review. FOR ME, Super Sidekicks series, are the only worth titles to stand in comparison to ISS Deluxe of that era and generation, not FIFA, not anything else. Although SSKS has smaller pitch than ISS and is much more arcade, in the balance arcade/sim, but it was destined for the arcades, so the action, video game focus is understandable, i can find a lot of similarities with ISS, while at the same time different games.

Well in short terms, ISS and SSKS are the 2 most serious games IMHO, of the 16-bit era... Altough, as i said before, Sidekicks is much much more Arcadey...not bad, but arcade..

Now what i wanna ask @vialli82 , i read i wikipedia about Neo Geo Cup 98 :
"Unlike its arcade counterpart, the Neo Geo version tries to be more of a soccer simulation game. Differences include the Neo Geo version being more slowed down, and more realism added in shooting, passing, etc. A color version of the game was released for the Neo Geo Pocket Color as Neo Geo Cup '98 Plus Color."

What does it mean with Neo Geo version? For Neo Geo home consoles and handhelds? Cause the Arcade version is NEO-GEO too, I mean NEO-GEO is a property of SNK....

I am really curious now to try this more of a soccer simulation game, more slowed down and more realism added version, if possible!!!!

 

[vialli82]

The two and only ISS that play like an ISS Pro Evolution on GBA... But with all players similar height and hairstyle (color varies) :

Winning Eleven Advance:


J-League Winning Advance 2002 : never tried that one


Those two were a very very good port from Iss Pro Evo.
Even if on a GBA screen, it looked pretty small, i also liked the Iss Deluxe version.
I think you can do every more or less every controls but it's a bit tricky.

There ISS Advance, from KCEO i suppose, but it looks a lot like WE advance



... But to me, on a GBA small screen + controls the most suitable is still the good old ISS remake from SNES basis, with different presentation, rosters, differences regarding players lookalike and rosters if i remember well :


Still prefers ISS Deluxe Snes or the PSX Remake +- the same except commentary and some "GOAL" noted in 3D but well.

I play the PSX for one reason even if i prefers SNES presentation and sound : i noted all the original real names on the PS1. That was possible on ISS Deluxe Japan version too... But no one has translated it. You can set Alphabetic names if you want, but without translation... I don't feel at ease at all with all the rest in japanese.

The "hacks" even the one from 2021 all misunderstood Zola with Del Piero, Di Biagio with another older players etc. and many many players.
I want the authentic version, untouched except names. Already tried, but impossible to change with the FECIC very old program.

 

[vialli82]

Now what i wanna ask @vialli82 , i read i wikipedia about Neo Geo Cup 98 :
"Unlike its arcade counterpart, the Neo Geo version tries to be more of a soccer simulation game. Differences include the Neo Geo version being more slowed down, and more realism added in shooting, passing, etc. A color version of the game was released for the Neo Geo Pocket Color as Neo Geo Cup '98 Plus Color."

What does it mean with Neo Geo version? For Neo Geo home consoles and handhelds? Cause the Arcade version is NEO-GEO too, I mean NEO-GEO is a property of SNK....

I am really curious now to try this more of a soccer simulation game, more slowed down and more realism added version, if possible!!!!

WOW, i wasn't aware of it AT ALL. And yes, it could fight with ISS Deluxe if there were more buttons (like Running) as i played especially the SS2 version from memories...
I never played that version through.

And in fact, Neo Geo and the Arcade cabinet are the same, but with different bios. Perhaps changing it to MVS (arcade) from AES (console) otherwise i don't see any other version, except if you buy a Neo Geo and get the Neo Geo one lol.
Or perhaps the guy say bullshit, i don't know.

I have no idea... And i'm like you mate, really want to search it now lol.
NeoGeo Cup'98 AES (console) version...
Didn't found anything like this. I don't remember the combination of button to change the bios stuffs like region, AES or MVS etc. but you should found it easily, it depends on what you're emulating it.

From the website you posted it's not doable, you need an emulator.

 

[slamsoze]

WOW, i wasn't aware of it AT ALL. And yes, it could fight with ISS Deluxe if there were more button... I never played that version through.

And in fact, Neo Geo and the Arcade cabinet are the same, but with different bios. Perhaps changing it to MVS (arcade) from AES (console) otherwhise i don't see any other version.

I have no idea... And i'm like you mate, really want to search it now lol.
NeoGeo Cup'98 AES (console) version...
Didn't found anything like this. I don't remember the combination of button to change the bios stuffs like region, AES or MVS etc. but you should found it easily, it depends on what you're emulating it.

From the website you posted it's not doable, you need an emulator.

Yeh i know, it needs emulator. I tried to identify via Youtube, but it is difficult, most videos say (ARCADE), i found one that says MVS, but i am really bad at identifing different arcade cabinet versions...

 

[vialli82]

I think i found the answer @slamsoze in fact, Super Sidekicks 3 and Neo Geo World Cup are supposed to be the same game.
What the guy say is approximative and misunderstanding then.

Neo Geo WC 98 is a toned down version of Super Sidekicks 3 > people are saying it's the same but one guy (in french, but just switch to the vids) compared both. And the difference is what the other guy said.
The speed seems toned down, harder to pass through defense etc. i didn't analysed everthing but overall it's the same game with different calibrations.


"Neo Geo" is called like this probably just to say it was designed for the console. But you can see that visually the two are similar, it's too rare for an SNK game to do something like that.

So it's the gameplay only, and made for playing at home, normally so a bit less easy to get high score.
The vid you showed seems exactly similar to the one on from the vid. I don't think MVS or AES may change anything : it's just SS3 less arcade.

 

[Flipper the Priest]

By coincidence i just had similar experience.
Throughout my retro-retro madness, searching, i find some other subdivisions existed back then, more than the usual 2 we all know.

The ISS Game for Gameboy is by KCEN (Nagoya). I believe similar story. Of the ISS family (KCEO), of course much different , much inferior as it is for gameboy.

ISS gameboy created by KCE Nagoya
View attachment 171790

____________________________________________________________________________________________

While ISS series for Gameboy Color, ISS 2000, KCEO , much inferior to SNES ofcourse, same family ISS

View attachment 171791

Yeah I knew about the Nagoya involvement. I assumed they were some sort of handheld specialists. I've not been impressed by any Konami game on handheld pre-DS.

This Sapporo case is a really weird one. Did KCET just have too much on their hands and outsourced it? It's also notable as there's no Jon Kabira.