The "Not happy with PES 2012" thread

[Srider]

Re: PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

That's interesting. Can i ask you then if Japanese attitudes towards gaming are changing? Whether they're adopting a more Western set of expectations when it comes to games in general?

I don't think it has ever changed. Someone else said something about how Japanese gamers don't expect good graphics. Such a statement is so far from the truth. Japanese game sales are declining like crazy year after year while western games are starting to overtake Japanese games, and graphics/technology is a big reason why.

The reason why Japanese games don't look good as before has little to do with player's expectations, it has to do with the decline in technical ability of Japanese game companies.

The primary reason why most western games don't appeal to people here has more to do with the westernized theme and story rather than other reasons such as "they don't care as much about graphics."

But the issue here is about WE/PES. User reviews in Japan thus far for 2012 is bad across the board (don't believe famitsu review). You can see for yourself on amazon.co.jp or kakaku.com. User reviews for FIFA (those who imported the game, since the game is not out officially yet as of this post) is overall very very positive at the same sites.

One thing people might say is that based on Japanese sales, WE seems to be selling more, but the reason for this is because most people in Japan imports the Asian version of the game since they can get it faster and cheaper, the price difference being almost more than 2000yen. Game is like 67 pounds (current exchange rate) if you don't import it here.

The result of this? We can all see from the worldwide sale of FIFA. I wouldn't be surprised if UEFA license will go to EA in the coming years.

Link to the amazon Japan reviews.
WE2012 http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/B005G18VH2 (scroll down to see all the people who gave it 1 star)
FIFA12 http://www.amazon.co.jp/dp/B005663LVS (game is not yet out her but already a ton of 5 stars by those who imported it)

Some of the reviews for WE2012:
"The whole dev team should resign."
"Do the people who made this game know what football is?"

 

[klashman69]

Re: PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

The reason why Japanese games don't look good as before has little to do with player's expectations, it has to do with the decline in technical ability of Japanese game companies.

Why is that? This interests me how japanesee companies in general are being left behind in technology on a grand scale? We are consantly seeing western games which gigantic massive budgets! The latest in comerical technology and a overload on marketing, which are all flashy and glossy.

It's probably which i'm a little kind to Konami, for the last 2 years after the PES 2008/09 fiascos they have done a really good job considering their budget.

Thing is really, if Konami don't have the money, what can they do? Make sure your not critisising them for not spending money they don't have. I said last year the transition problems to this generation are obvious now even in that there was no new brand spanking engine released like for western big budget games for any of their other titles.

For example I hate Manchester City at the moment, unlike most who seem to love them, because buying up and spending and throwing gross amounts of cash to get to the top. Just bullying everyone out of their way with no regards to the sport, respect and competitivness itself. This is similar to EA attitude with FIFA. focusing on all this gloss, hype and getting people to buy packs in ultimate team to earn money! But won't fix basic issues regarding inerta, momentum, instead bring in a broken tactical defending system. thankfully i gave up with simulaiton in FIFA and play it to it's strengths and it's a fun game.

The result of this? We can all see from the worldwide sale of FIFA. I wouldn't be surprised if UEFA license will go to EA in the coming years.

EA have already had the liscence for UEFA between 2004-2007!

It's very important PES stays about. We all know FIFA is going nowhere but they need some light competiton to push eachover.

Look at the terrible Smackdown series and see how it's barely progressed in years and year because of no competition, look at the NFL series also!

 

[Ameppe]

Re: PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

Funny enough this is what Adam wrote about we 2012 sales

#WE2012 has been received amazingly in Japan.Small decline in recent years. It took WE2011 5 weeks to sell what this years game has after 2!

 

[gerd]

Re: PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

Klashmann, you are extremely biased and naïve. EA Sports are not Greenpeace or Amnesty International. Konami are not civilians who are vitims of a war...

This is about selling most games, this is a was where no prisoners are taken...i wish Konami had the mentality of EA Sports. The moment Konami make a better product, they will sell more copies of PES, it's as simple as that...they have proven this in the PS2 era...

 

[klashman69]

Re: PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

Klashmann, you are extremely biased and naïve. EA Sports are not Greenpeace or Amnesty International. Konami are not civilians who are vitims of a war...

This is about selling most games, this is a was where no prisoners are taken...i wish Konami had the mentality of EA Sports. The moment Konami make a better product, they will sell more copies of PES, it's as simple as that...they have proven this in the PS2 era...

Well I'm sure Everton would like to spend 100 million on players so they can build a better squad and challenge for champions league and titles but how can they do that with no money, even if they want to spend desperatley?

So if Seabass wants to spend money and buy new technology for his game to improve it but Konami say. Nope, sorry were broke at the moment, no can do. Or basically the money distributed to Konami is say 10 less than EA or other western super giants. What can he do???

How is that biased??

People seem to think spending money is easy! It's like money just comes out of thin air! We all want a better game, but let's be realsitic and understand the situation. In the PS2 era, they had the budget, now they don't. they can barely afford to shoot their own custom filmed TV adverts anymore even.

 

[wabak]

Re: PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

If PES 2013 is a much better game than FIFA 13 in every way, it still wouldn't sell more.

FIFA has nearly reached COD level with sales, as in it's a guaranteed buy before most people even know anything about the game.

Saying otherwise is silly.

I think the only way PES could hit them back is by getting a major league license or something like that, the Premiership exclusively. It just won't happen though.

 

[Suuuuupertalk]

Re: PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

i said it 3 times now. Everything in a computer is a program responding erforming a command. Goalkeepeing is something which we all know in real life requires human perception! Something a computer cannot do. It only does what it's programmed to do. Something a human will find extremly easy, a computer may struggle or fail to do because it can't adapt it's calculations

What i saying is it seems as if there are situations where the keepers are having big issues calculating responses to unique situations. It seems yes, because the game is now more complicated and more randomness happens is why the keepers aren't good enough at the moment to deal with how the game is balanced. I said before i think Konami would have just been better of making them super human to compensate.

I never disputed what you said and understood it the first time. But whatever the reason the keeper AI breaks down, for a commercial release it's still appalling programming. If keepers don't work because the game engine can't cope with decision making then they need to take it off the market until they have a product that doesn't break down.

I'm not talking about making keepers that seem real, or making keepers that are in any way intelligent, I'm talking about a game having keepers that perform the most basic errors that go beyond it looking like the keeper made a poor mistake. They are glaring coding errors. I frankly don't care if PES' engine can't cope with complexities of the game, it's still an issue that ruins the game.

In no way should a finished commercial release have a striker running in on goal and your goalkeeper freaks out and runs away from the play and off the pitch, leaving an empty goal. That's just a broken bug. Likewise in no way should your keeper be not able to catch a simple ball that slowly drifts into his chest from head on.

Like i just said, I've seen keepers in this game run off the pitch for no reason, run past the player with the ball, forget to move, forget how to pick up a ball and not even identify that the game is going on around him. We both agree it's lousy but I don't think any reason is valid when it's an issue with PES' game engine yet they still pump out the titles and at full price too.

Like I said if this happens due to code being able to cope with more advanced AI, physics etc etc then it needs completely starting from scratch.

 

[Srider]

Re: PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

Klashmann, you are extremely biased and naïve. EA Sports are not Greenpeace or Amnesty International. Konami are not civilians who are vitims of a war...

This is about selling most games, this is a was where no prisoners are taken...i wish Konami had the mentality of EA Sports. The moment Konami make a better product, they will sell more copies of PES, it's as simple as that...they have proven this in the PS2 era...

This is exactly right. If you read the reviews that users write in Japan, they complain about the exact same thing as people here. Goal Keepers is the biggie, the superhuman CPU dribbler problem, lack of control in different situations, game overriding your passing input (alot of hardcore players in Japan have the mindset that Konami took away manual passing, the one you do with the right stick back in PS2 days), and the ones who didn't think the game was scripted, many are starting to suspect that higher difficulty CPU are scripted to win. They don't have different expectations, it's just Konami continue to fail to deliver the game that communities both East and West want.

If they make a good product, it will sell, they don't need any license or whatever. It is how it's always been. Some people are delusional if they don't think the ones who bought FIFA aren't also hardcore WE/PES fans.

 

[Northzzz]

Re: PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

I think Klash's criticism of EA is based on the fact that they could make an absolutely fantastic football simulation game if they wanted to but choose to continue to go down the arcade approach because they know that's where the audience is currently. In truth EA probably have the power to manipulate their audience into liking whatever kind of game they make. EA have that power but don't bother to put in things that would make the game a fantastic representation of football rather than the current arcade style game it ends up being because core things like inertia, momentum etc are just non-existent at current.

In all honesty Konami aren't paragons either and deserve a medal of stupidity if they believe making their game more like Fifa (and i think that's been the general consensus of what they tried to do this year based on the default settings) is a good decision. Why would any Fifa fan jump ship over to a game that offers no real better differences. In all honesty PES 2011 offered a lot more by way of simulation than PES 2012 does. Pes 2011 wasn't anywhere near flawless though and they should have worked on that game's faults but it doesn't feel like they did. At times PES 2012 really does remind me of PES 6. A game which moved away from the simulation aspects of its predecessor.

I think PES 2012 is a fun game and whilst it isn't awful the more i play it, specifically how Konami have designed patch 1.1, makes me think that its lacking a lot of simulation aspects that i have come to expect from the series.

 

[klashman69]

Re: PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

I never disputed what you said and understood it the first time. But whatever the reason the keeper AI breaks down, for a commercial release it's still appalling programming. If keepers don't work because the game engine can't cope with decision making then they need to take it off the market until they have a product that doesn't break down.

True.

I'm not talking about making keepers that seem real, or making keepers that are in any way intelligent, I'm talking about a game having keepers that perform the most basic errors that go beyond it looking like the keeper made a poor mistake. They are glaring coding errors. I frankly don't care if PES' engine can't cope with complexities of the game, it's still an issue that ruins the game.

In no way should a finished commercial release have a striker running in on goal and your goalkeeper freaks out and runs away from the play and off the pitch, leaving an empty goal. That's just a broken bug. Likewise in no way should your keeper be not able to catch a simple ball that slowly drifts into his chest from head on.

Again true. I think despite my analysis in saying that it's very hard to program keeeprs which even you agree. I beleive they should of just go on and made them superhuman! rather than try to balance them out and allow them to make these errors! So this could have been avoided.

Like I said if this happens due to code being able to cope with more advanced AI, physics etc etc then it needs completely starting from scratch.

No, it's not bad coding which makes keepers hard to get right, it's simply the way computers work. Recreating human perception is very difficault. If FIFA or any football game has as many variables as PES the keepers would suffer there too.

Anyway, do you think it will be fixed?

 

[klashman69]

Re: PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

I think Klash's criticism of EA is based on the fact that they could make an absolutely fantastic football simulation game if they wanted to but choose to go down the arcade approach because they know that's where the audience is currently. In truth EA probably have the power to manipulate their audience into liking whatever kind of game they make but still resolutely don't bother to put in things that would make the game fantastic rather than the current arcade style game it ends up being because core things like inertia, momentum etc are just silly at present.

Precisely, but no, I just forget about PES in terms of simulation. Just instead bang my head against a wall trying to extract realsim from FIFA. I mean what for examle if many of those from Amazon are tying FIFA for the first time? they don't know the games flaws and are cursing PES and seeing the green grass on the other side only to find it's not quite as green as it looks.

Sorry but simply because i don't curse about PES every 5 mintues, i'm a fanboy who should just give up with the game and head to banging my head against a wall.

This is exactly right. If you read the reviews that users write in Japan, they complain about the exact same thing as people here. Goal Keepers is the biggie,

What have i been discussing with LTFC?

the superhuman CPU dribbler problem,

See, this is the issue, there are genuine flaws such as Goalkeepers being shit, crossing on the whole being too accurate, animation bugs here and there. CPU passing at times being too accurate.

Then there are people who moaning about not being able to defend against dribblers. The only player i have big issues tackling is Messi, the rest i can just about handle, (maybe not iniesta but less so than messi)

lack of control in different situations, game overriding your passing input (alot of hardcore players in Japan have the mindset that Konami took away manual passing, the one you do with the right stick back in PS2 days), and the ones who didn't think the game was scripted, many are starting to suspect that higher difficulty CPU are scripted to win.

Maybe you can see i'm trying to bring balance to these arguments instead of just being doom and gloom, ultra negative with PES and FIFA is the land of Milk and honey. FIFA is more like MacDonalds if anything.

They don't have different expectations, it's just Konami continue to fail to deliver the game that communities both East and West want.

Yes they do! Some people like me want a game which represent's all styles of football, a game in which you would use Villarreal in a totally different way compared to Blackburn.

Others want a game which plays out in the football style they want. they want every match to be slow every team to play slow buildup football. Or they want an end to end game, or the game that replicates a frantic midfield battle.

Some people want realsim but don't give a shit about tactics or every team playing differently (which is a issue in itself the CPU being given all similar tactics). Some people want realsim but don't mind if Micah Richards can kill a ball like Bergkam and dribble ast 6-7 players. People are different and want different things.

If they make a good product, it will sell, they don't need any license or whatever. It is how it's always been. Some people are delusional if they don't think the ones who bought FIFA aren't also hardcore WE/PES fans.

What did i say earlier, about people wanting different things. FIFA may offer them a few parts of simulation such as everyone playing the same, slow buildup football. if FIFA has that, what the fuck will they play PES for? If they maybe play an option file with every team layig like they do in real life, with new stadiums etc.. whats that compared to FIFA brillaint interface and presentation with a style of gameplay they like and they have happy with the small amount of realsim they have?

Is that deluded or is that the reality. look around in forums, you will see this is the case. Look at the FIFA threads, people looking for certian amounts of realsim in fifa in certian areas but more than anything a challenging gameplay experience and they are happy with that.

 

[gerd]

Re: PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

Klash, i don't care if you are a fan or not, there is nothing wrong with being a fan of PES, hell i'm one myself.
But sometimes it seems as if making an arcade game is a crime...it isn't. We live in a free market economy (or we think we do) where you can make whatever product you want. The ultimate test is if something sells (or not). EA's products sell, FIFA sells...there is nothing wrong with that. And honestly i don't think FIFA is arcade.
In this months FourFourTwo issue both games were tested by two professional football players (Wolves' Hunt and Shaun Wright-Philips). Both prefer FIFA because it's more realistic. I don't agree because i think PES is the only game that has to be played like real football if you want to win matches. PES has moments of magic that FIFA will never have.

BUT

FIFA is the better game...the moments of magic of PES are like flowers on a sewage system...FIFA is a nice garden where it is good to be.

I prefer PES by far, but if i try to be objective i must say that FIFA is the better game. If PES would become a better game it would sell much more copies (maybe not as much as FIFA, maybe it will not generate as much profit as current PES, because making a better game will mean that Konami have to invest more money). Like i already said, when PES was objectively the better game, once people knew that, they sold much more games...even after two absolute shit games, PES still sold lots of games...and then FIFA really became better and PES went downhill...it not only about licenses...believe me. That is the easy and self-deluding explanation.

But it's only a game...not worth all the hassle.

 

[sgmullins]

Re: PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

You know when i first got pes 2012 i was really excited and enjoying it immensely, the thing that cheesed me off were the goalkeepers.

So once the patch arrived and the goalkeepers were far better i was even more happy with it. I then came on this forum and started reading that people were generally very happy too, then the complaints started creeping in.

I popped across to other forums and the same thing was there too, this started to bother me now. Until i read about the defenders actually protecting the keepers more than they did in version 1.0, well i did not even notice this until i had read it.

I was really enjoying pes 2012 before i had come on the forums and yes with the patch, i was in awe at how well the keepers performed. I was totally happy trying to build decent play to get by all these defenders, it was hard work but i was loving the game totally.

Now i'm feeling torn between version 1.0 with crappy keepers at times or 1.01 which yes maybe it does not flow as good but is still very good to play.

I think at the end of the day it's a great soccer sim and people tend to demand perfection , which lets face it your not going to get. If you decide to play with ver 1.0 and crappy keepers at times, just try to defend better to protect your keepers.

I just feel people are just focussing too much on any flaws in the game. You cant tell me that fifa does not have flaws.

 

[klashman69]

Re: PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

Klash, i don't care if you are a fan or not, there is nothing wrong with being a fan of PES, hell i'm one myself.
But sometimes it seems as if making an arcade game is a crime...it isn't. We live in a free market economy (or we think we do) where you can make whatever product you want. The ultimate test is if something sells (or not). EA's products sell, FIFA sells...there is nothing wrong with that. And honestly i don't think FIFA is arcade.
In this months FourFourTwo issue both games were tested by two professional football players (Wolves' Hunt and Shaun Wright-Philips). Both prefer FIFA because it's more realistic. I don't agree because i think PES is the only game that has to be played like real football if you want to win matches. PES has moments of magic that FIFA will never have.

That was not my point saying making an arcade game is a crime. My point is never black and white, all my points are always about finding a balance, finding a balance we can all undisputley agree with and using it to help both PES and FIFA.

Balance is the key to everything in life and its the key here. Look at Tactical Defending in FIFA, that was simply a cheap way of stopping pressure by bringing in a broken system which everything is containa nd there is no pressure whatsoever! The pressure problem wasan't the controls, it was the lack of individuallity, momentum/inertia and stamina!

BUT

FIFA is the better game...the moments of magic of PES are like flowers on a sewage system...FIFA is a nice garden where it is good to be.

I prefer PES by far, but if i try to be objective i must say that FIFA is the better game. If PES would become a better game it would sell much more copies (maybe not as much as FIFA, maybe it will not generate as much profit as current PES, because making a better game will mean that Konami have to invest more money). Like i already said, when PES was objectively the better game, once people knew that, they sold much more games...even after two absolute shit games, PES still sold lots of games...and then FIFA really became better and PES went downhill...it not only about licenses...believe me. That is the easy and self-deluding explanation.

But it's only a game...not worth all the hassle.

FIFA is a better game in technology, it's minimum fuss, has all liscences, has much better overall presentation and atmosphere. Overall FIFA is far more suited to todays society!

PES has the simulation gameplay i want and it's more customisable. But you can see, people who play PES these day are all interlocked with some sort of comunity!

All i've been saying is that don't hammer PES for losing out in a arms race to FIFA in terms of technology in the most part!

I am leaninent with PES, i think they have served their punishment for the shit (PES6-2009 and 2010 although i liked it was broken) they had enough shit now! They are TRYING, they aren't pissing about like before. I mean look at Sgtmullins post, he was fine with the game until he read a forum! Some peole have to stop bashing PES 2012 because 2008 was so bad, get over it! Seriously!

Also on the realsim, we all know not to take any notice of commecrial reviews where PES is being played on 4 passing bars and 0 games speed at it's most arcade like settings.

 

[Lons]

Re: PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

You

Klash, i don't care if you are a fan or not, there is nothing wrong with being a fan of PES, hell i'm one myself.
But sometimes it seems as if making an arcade game is a crime...it isn't. We live in a free market economy (or we think we do) where you can make whatever product you want. The ultimate test is if something sells (or not). EA's products sell, FIFA sells...there is nothing wrong with that. And honestly i don't think FIFA is arcade.
In this months FourFourTwo issue both games were tested by two professional football players (Wolves' Hunt and Shaun Wright-Philips). Both prefer FIFA because it's more realistic. I don't agree because i think PES is the only game that has to be played like real football if you want to win matches. PES has moments of magic that FIFA will never have.

BUT

FIFA is the better game...the moments of magic of PES are like flowers on a sewage system...FIFA is a nice garden where it is good to be.

I prefer PES by far, but if i try to be objective i must say that FIFA is the better game. If PES would become a better game it would sell much more copies (maybe not as much as FIFA, maybe it will not generate as much profit as current PES, because making a better game will mean that Konami have to invest more money). Like i already said, when PES was objectively the better game, once people knew that, they sold much more games...even after two absolute shit games, PES still sold lots of games...and then FIFA really became better and PES went downhill...it not only about licenses...believe me. That is the easy and self-deluding explanation.

But it's only a game...not worth all the hassle.

I can not agree with You. If PES has licenses like FIFA has than can sell much more copies. FIFA is better game? It's depends in which deparments. FIFA has better technology but it dosen't mean FIFA is better. Seabass said long time ago (6 years ago)when PES was on the TOP. " If we want compete with EA we have to have more licenses" This is true, because in this days casuals customers decide 90 % about everything.(sells copies). Most of them want complex game without editing etc. What had FIFA 5 - 6 years ago? What? Gameplay? I tell You what LICENSES! Nothing more. How many copies they sold? 5 mln? 6 mln? This is answer for You. The difference between PES and FIFA is ONLY technollogy and Licenses! Nothing more! People don't like FIFA in terms of gameplay but in terms of high technology + extra licenses! This is the key! If You read most forum 90% people don't speak about FIFA gamelay but about superb animations, collisons, new engine etc They love it. They don't look deep, you know what i mean? Thats all.

 

[beachryan]

Re: PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

There are lots of good points in here, but the one that stands out for me is the strategic direction of Konami - or the lack thereof.

Say FIFA has 10x the budget of PES (it'll be something on that magnitude). At the beginning of the production cycle, Konami management needs to sit down and say - We have a tenth of the budget of FIFA, our direct competitor. We cannot beat them at everything. Even if we're 4x as good at programming or work 2x as hard etc, we still can't beat the sheer gap in resources. Fine. That's a position many, many products and companies find themselves in.

So Konami should say - we won't try to beat them at everything. Why do the majority of gamers buy PES (rather than or as well as FIFA)? Is it to play the training mode? (no) Is it to play online (maybe)? Is it to play the Master League (without a doubt)? Is it to play with mates in the same room (without a doubt)?

Konami should make a list of why people prefer PES. And then focus on that.

For example - we all know that online is the biggest drain on resources for the PES team, and has been since it started. They can't get it right. They change the core engine to accommodate online. I'd love to know what ridiculous % of production time is dedicated to online - would wager well above 50%. Imagine if, instead of that, for PES 2013 they just said we're not changing online at all.

And instead, they went all in to improving the engine, physics and so forth.

If that was all they did, just make the best representation of football for players to play, they certainly wouldn't do any worse than they do now. And they'd slowly become the 'true' football fans choice again, which is how they got to the top in the first place.

The best products tend to focus on what they do well. Konami have no direction, and will continue to fall until they do.

 

[Expander]

Re: PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

Some really good posts over the last three or four pages.Speaking as a veteran gamer theres little doubt the industry has changed massively as has the gamer.Games while more cinematic and photo-realistic arent as demanding or as taxing anymore,especially the blockbuster IPs,because generally games now pander to the supermassmarket.Your average gamer doesnt want to be challenged,have to really think,nor are they willing to spend weeks figuring out logic puzzles.They just want to run around maps shooting people,shouting abuse,wearing there achievements like a badge of honour.Even if the majority of the time they cheat there way to the hardest achievements by watching you tube videos.People just dont want the satisfaction of earning it.

Of course im generalising and there is still a small minority that are hardcore,schooled on the days of twitch gaming,craving something deeper and more rewarding or wanting something that games like fallout offer,something thats grows and developes and is driven by choiches.Not some linear corridor shooter that is always driving you forward and in one direction.

This is where pes comes back in,its a relic of something that once was,the days when games did something to your head through the alchemy of the code,not some cheap reward system or over bloated cinematics.The reward of taming the unpredictable and a precious equilibrium in the code,where no two games are ever the same or more importantly you never act the same in the same situation twice.This is what fifa lacks,its predictable,samey, and within weeks despite its huge technical advances you find yourself completely bored with it.Throw in the floaty movement,strange player models and beach ball physics and you have the perfect recipe for the supermassmarket.Thats not to say its not challenging on the higher settings because it is,the problem lies in the fact that its to scientific and far to mathmatical.Anyone with half a brain can figure out its patterns in days and just exploit the same weakness,over and over again.

I guarantee next year in pes2013 we will see the tech to match the talent,alchemy and gameplay.

Fifa is and always will be a pes clone.That is why for me pes will always be my game of choice,and pes2012 is the best yet.Pre patch of course because i championed it.

As for this stupid arcadeVsimulation argument,football games have always been very arcade orientated,the simplicity of there control interface and the nature of there gameplay dictates this.And when has this been such a bad thing.Old school arcade games were and still are some of the hardest ever made.They were designed to be to take your money and werent designed like games are now for the home.

 

[Miro]

Re: PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

Enough of this crap, they need to take their product off the market, for a one year and start to work hard on PES for next gen XBox 720 and PS4 , otherwise it will be the end of the serie.

However still there are people like some individuals here they are playing different game like the rest of the planet called earth and they are doing with their nonsense - blind - fanboys comment big damage to this game, making Konami believe that the shit they deliver since 2008 is playable game.

Can you hear the train in the distance running away ?
Thats FIFA - wake up !!!

 

[AntrAcsA]

Re: PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

After ... maybe 100 games on PES2k12 and FIFA12 i can say !!! The animation engine in PES is much better than FIFA . I mean that... the FIFA has better animation as a unit, as acting...PES has bad acting , motion capture of animation is bad (maybe Seabass himself is actor ), bad transfusion ,often lacks logic , but the engine is much better, they are more clean, more realistic feel . In FiFa animation has a lot artefacts , more look like a glitch , seems to have epilepsy.
This can best seen in Replays and cutscenes even in the game can be seen
PES team must work more on the logic of movements, a better mo-cop work and better transfusion.

 

[leandropuc86]

Re: PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

You

People don't like FIFA in terms of gameplay but in terms of high technology + extra licenses! This is the key! If You read most forum 90% people don't speak about FIFA gamelay but about superb animations, collisons, new engine etc They love it. They don't look deep, you know what i mean? Thats all.

I'm a long time PES fan and I play it since WE3, on PSOne. I bought FIFA 11 (my first FIFA since 2003) and I have to say it pisses all over PES 2011 in terms of GAMEPLAY. It's fluid, it's manual features are just as good and the controls are responsive. The CPU AI doesnt take a volley shot from outside every rebound after a corner. If I tell a player to turn around, he will at least TRY to turn around instead of running the ball off the pitch. In FIFA, my players do kick a ball with more power when they're shooting, not when they're passing. If I want to select a player, said player will be selected. On PES, even on PES 2012 on set-pieces, I feel like the CPU will select any player, except for the one I want.

That is one of the most ridiculous things on PES. If I tell a player to make a strong pass, he will make a strong pass. If I charge the whole damn shooting bar, SOMETIMES I'll get a powerful shot, but most often than not, he'll kick it like a 12 year old kid. Dont get me wrong, I've got a lot of gripes with FIFA - hard to dribble, easiness of finesse shots, predictable CPU AI except for Legendary and a lot more.

But I feel like I'm having a real input into the result of a match. On PES, dunno, seems like I'll do all the right things, aim at the right corners but it's the CPU's decision whether I'm winning or losing.

 

[geeeeee]

Re: PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

You know when i first got pes 2012 i was really excited and enjoying it immensely, the thing that cheesed me off were the goalkeepers.

So once the patch arrived and the goalkeepers were far better i was even more happy with it. I then came on this forum and started reading that people were generally very happy too, then the complaints started creeping in.

I popped across to other forums and the same thing was there too, this started to bother me now. Until i read about the defenders actually protecting the keepers more than they did in version 1.0, well i did not even notice this until i had read it.

I was really enjoying pes 2012 before i had come on the forums and yes with the patch, i was in awe at how well the keepers performed. I was totally happy trying to build decent play to get by all these defenders, it was hard work but i was loving the game totally.

Now i'm feeling torn between version 1.0 with crappy keepers at times or 1.01 which yes maybe it does not flow as good but is still very good to play.

I think at the end of the day it's a great soccer sim and people tend to demand perfection , which lets face it your not going to get. If you decide to play with ver 1.0 and crappy keepers at times, just try to defend better to protect your keepers.

I just feel people are just focussing too much on any flaws in the game. You cant tell me that fifa does not have flaws.

I totally agree with you, i do enjoy reading these forums but when someone picks out a bug that i havnt noticed before, then the bug stands out like a sore thumb and i begin to dislike the game. For example i never noticed scripting until i read about it, then i found it really frustrating.

Its taken me a good couple of weeks to work out that i prefer Pes to Fifa, this is mostly because different forums keep influencing my opinion.

Like you said people demand perfection rather than focusing on the positives. Personally i am enjoying this game more since going back to patch 1.0 with Goalgerd's OF. Yeh the keepers are a bit rubbish sometimes but its the same for both teams. I think the positives far outweigh the negatives in this game. And im actually enjoying this game for the first time on ps3.

 

[Expander]

Re: PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

After ... maybe 100 games on PES2k12 and FIFA12 i can say !!! The animation engine in PES is much better than FIFA . I mean that... the FIFA has better animation as a unit, as acting...PES has bad acting , motion capture of animation is bad (maybe Seabass himself is actor ), bad transfusion ,often lacks logic , but the engine is much better, they are more clean, more realistic feel . In FiFa animation has a lot artefacts , more look like a glitch , seems to have epilepsy.
This can best seen in Replays and cutscenes even in the game can be seen
PES team must work more on the logic of movements, a better mo-cop work and better transfusion.

I agree with this and i felt the same about pes2011,the studs on the boots of the players in fifa are always above the pitch also.I also dont like it when you press both the triggers in fifa for close control and to slalom or jenga,it doesnt look natural and its the same for every player.PESs motions are alot more natural as is the way players turn and rotate on the ball.And however much they tweak the ball physics there still floaty in fifa as are the players movements.Its fools gold.

People can crank on about fifas gameplay till there blue in the face but it still doesnt hold a torch to pes despite PESs technical limitations.Because you can still play someone whos pants at fifa and doesnt no anything about football and they can give you a good game,it flatters to decieve.A hardcore pes player will always out think and outplay a weaker opponent.

This is why even fifa converts always come back to the pes forums every year before release,because they know in there hearts fifa doesnt really cut the gameplay mustard,however pleasing it is on the eye.

I cant remember who said it,but they were right,the amount of number crunching pes does compared to fifa is what makes it what it is.This is why some struggle with pre patch pes2012 stating its to fast because like real football any mistakes or mis-calculation will be punished,as it would in real life.When post patch you get away with so much more,hence the difference in score lines in both pre and post patch.The games that much more brutal pre patch.You can only control tempo if your in possession of the ball which again is like real football.

What i also find ironic is that people that generally prefer post patch are those that have passing assistance on 2 rather then zero.They just like a easier game with more flattering score lines.

 

[Jamezinho]

I was going to reply to the post about FIFA12 outselling PES2012 by a ratio of 25-1 but I've completely lost track of what's going on after all these posts have been needlessly moved from the PES2012 discussion thread.

So, seeing as this is essentially the new discussion thread........

I've heard over the last couple of years that PES was being outsold by 5-1, 6-1 or 7-1, but 25-1 is absolutely crushing. I'd be interested to know if this is a worldwide figure or for a particular region/country. One thing is for sure, even with their massive advertising budget, EA's overheads for FIFA are not 25x that of PES. Let's not forget, PES has a good size team working on it with many expensive licences to maintain. PES is by no means a budget title to produce.

Unfortunately Konami are now feeling the heat after years of neglect and poor decisions by the PES team. When you're getting comprehensively beaten by the competition the one thing you should do is try to get your product to market before the competition, yet year after year Konami release at the same time as, or after, FIFA. They go the extra mile by screwing UK customers, making them wait two weeks after the release of FIFA. And Konami wonder why PES is getting absolutely killed in the sales charts in the UK?

The worrying thing to me is that 25-1 equates to Konami getting less than 4% of the football game market. Such a low market share is surely not sustainable for the long term, even for PES?

 

[Flaw3d Genius]

The 25-1 figure is for the UK only.

 

[Lami]

How's that 25-1 even believable? I can't get this through my head. It's way too much it doesn't make much sense. Not exaggerated?

 

[Jamezinho]

The 25-1 figure is for the UK only.

Ok thanks. Konami's decision to fuck over their UK fans with a late release date will have undoubtedly played a part, as will the continued lack of Premier League licence and stadia.

I'd be really interested to know how PES has sold compared to FIFA in Germany, where the situation is even worse - not a even a fake German league in the game.

While 25-1 is extreme, I wouldn't be surprised if that kind of figure is indicative of a global trend in PES sales. If what Srider said earlier is true, even the Japanese are turning away from PES. Perhaps that is the catalyst needed for Konami to sort themselves out.

 

[Flaw3d Genius]

How's that 25-1 even believable? I can't get this through my head. It's way too much it doesn't make much sense. Not exaggerated?

No that's what the sales figures were for Fifa's first week and PES's first week on sale in the UK. PES only managed a new entry at no.5 which for a football game is awful. PES 2011 managed to get to no.1 for it's release week then dropped quickly.

No doubt 2012 is better than PES 2011 but with PES 2011 being so poor as well as the other games it's had a huge knock on effect.

 

[klashman69]

Re: PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

Enough of this crap, they need to take their product off the market, for a one year and start to work hard on PES for next gen XBox 720 and PS4 , otherwise it will be the end of the serie.

However still there are people like some individuals here they are playing different game like the rest of the planet called earth and they are doing with their nonsense - blind - fanboys comment big damage to this game, making Konami believe that the shit they deliver since 2008 is playable game.

Can you hear the train in the distance running away ?
Thats FIFA - wake up !!!

This is what i mean, nothing Konami can do will please this man. Konami are going nowhere with people like this. Leading them in circles on certain issues of the game.

Have you ever stopped to actually think! About how your helping anyone with your rant. If i stop playing PES because i take your opinion? What am i going to do for single player? I'm not banging my head against a way playing FIFA, i only play that vs my mates? So what do I play for single player then? Don't even mention the on rails dated PS2 PES games? Go on what do you suggest? Since no one can play PES 2012 in your opinion?

Go on, tell me? Or are you just going to not post i guess?

 

[CalcioCalabrese]

He got hit by the train that is FIFA

 

[Srider]

Ok thanks. Konami's decision to fuck over their UK fans with a late release date will have undoubtedly played a part, as will the continued lack of Premier League licence and stadia.

I'd be really interested to know how PES has sold compared to FIFA in Germany, where the situation is even worse - not a even a fake German league in the game.

While 25-1 is extreme, I wouldn't be surprised if that kind of figure is indicative of a global trend in PES sales. If what Srider said earlier is true, even the Japanese are turning away from PES. Perhaps that is the catalyst needed for Konami to sort themselves out.

WE/PES has only one last saving grace in Japan: that FIFA doesn't show the player's names in Japanese, and this is why you still see decent sales for WE here. Most of the community, however, are playing both games, which has never been the case before.