The "Not happy with PES 2012" thread

[ToonArmy]

I agree that against another human opponent, the game is great. But against the cpu, which I play 90% of the time, it is hugely frustrating.

It is fine if some teams play with 9 men camped in their box, some teams actually do this in real life. But when they hoof the ball clear and 90%+ of the time it falls perfectly to the single attacker it is so annoying. If a team is camped back then you should be able to put a lot of pressure on them and not expect a lightening quick flawless counter attack each time they clear the ball.

The likes of Holt (Norwich) and Kenwine Jones can easily dribble around your defence as if they weren't there. And when I sprint up the line with a fast winger, I dont expect to see Andy Carroll chasing back and easily catching me as he did when I was running with Ashley Cole.

 

[CalcioCalabrese]

I haven't tried tweaking formations or player stats much yet but it might be really helpful in making the game more manageable against the CPU. Yes I agree we shouldn't have to do it. I've noticed that some animations and shot techniques seem to be locked to higher ratings - maybe that's just a placebo that I see though.

Whilst the core gameplay is solid, maybe the biggest flaw in the game is that stats are sometimes too unforgiving or conversely, too generous. Again, I haven't gone through the changes that Chimps has been talking about, but it may be where Konami needs to look at rather than trying to recode massive amounts of the AI.

 

[ToonArmy]

Konami are far too lazy to do anything with the stats as their ratings of most of the past it players shows.

Shame we can't use something like Chimps option file for the PC version, I would like to give it a go.

 

[CalcioCalabrese]

Ah you're on PC. Try applying his changes manually to a couple of teams that you've been struggling with. Try it as an experiment. Before and after.

I'm on Xbox so it's a bit harder but I'll try it.

 

[Schwarzenbeck]

Whilst the core gameplay is solid, maybe the biggest flaw in the game is that stats are sometimes too unforgiving or conversely, too generous.

The biggest flaw in the game is that the computer can pretty much ignore its own stats whenever it desires.

 

[ToonArmy]

Ah you're on PC. Try applying his changes manually to a couple of teams that you've been struggling with. Try it as an experiment. Before and after.

I'm on Xbox so it's a bit harder but I'll try it.

How do we find out what changes he made? I wouldn't mind doing 2 teams and playing a match to see if there is a difference.

 

[CalcioCalabrese]

How do we find out what changes he made? I wouldn't mind doing 2 teams and playing a match to see if there is a difference.

Sorry but I don't know how to paste a link to his discussion but on the PES 2012 Discussion Thread, go to page 441 and it's roughly the 5th post down. Post number #13205. He described it there. It's a bit long so I didn't want to paste it here too sorry.

 

[Lami]

Of course, and the part highlighted in bold is exactly how it should be. I'm sure Adam's involvement is nothing more than in a feedback capacity. But as I've already said, love or hate the guy, having someone like him involved is something that should be seen as positive. We always criticise Konami for not listening, not embracing new (Western) ideas. Well, now we potentially have a spokesperson directly involved with Konami.

I've not been the biggest fan of Adam and the way he runs his forums, but he's a fan of PES like all of us and cares passionately about the game. From listening to him it's clear his views on what needs to improve are the same as all of ours.

Not insulting the guy here, and I agree he might be a PES maniac, but I'd rather someone technical be involved. Guys like Chimps-with-quiffs, Klashman, the legends in the editing section, etc. Adam is a PR guy. He can be the one in charge as I think he might be pretty good at sending the message, but he should have all these technical guys working with him to give him the right message. I know he'll be using his guys/board for feedback, but I don't think that's the best idea.

I hope someone from their board is reading this, and send Adam a message to look for feedback from the right people, the ones I mentioned above, plus others with similar technicalities who I don't know.

 

[Jamezinho]

Not insulting the guy here, and I agree he might be a PES maniac, but I'd rather someone technical be involved. Guys like Chimps-with-quiffs, Klashman, the legends in the editing section, etc. Adam is a PR guy. He can be the one in charge as I think he might be pretty good at sending the message, but he should have all these technical guys working with him to give him the right message. I know he'll be using his guys/board for feedback, but I don't think that's the best idea.

I hope someone from their board is reading this, and send Adam a message to look for feedback from the right people, the ones I mentioned above, plus others with similar technicalities who I don't know.

Completely agree. I don't think there was ever a suggestion that he will be involved on a technical level as that's not his background. But as you said, Konami really should look at using what is potentially one of their greatest assets - the passionate, cult-like PES community. There are so many talented people out there who could help in an official capacity. Other game developers have hired from within their community so why can't PES?

 

[P34SEMM]

I think WENB and PESFan both submit a list of complaints/wish list to Konami every year........and Konami ignore it!

 

[pj_puttz]

If Seabass does indeed decide 80% of what goes into every PES game then he has become a mad dictator living on past glories and refusing to believe that anyone but him knows what is best for the series.

He should step aside and give a new generation with new ideas a chance at restoring PES to it's former glory because he has consistently failed to do so for a few years now.

The football game market is a two team league and his team has been resigned to second place for years now. If he were a football manager in that situation he'd have been sacked a long time ago.

 

[P34SEMM]

Every feedback they recieve asks if you can switch clubs in Master League.
Every year it never happens.

 

[Srider]

Completely agree. I don't think there was ever a suggestion that he will be involved on a technical level as that's not his background. But as you said, Konami really should look at using what is potentially one of their greatest assets - the passionate, cult-like PES community. There are so many talented people out there who could help in an official capacity. Other game developers have hired from within their community so why can't PES?

Cause the people who actually make the game are people in Japan, not people in the UK.

If you look at the way community feedback is handled with any technical oriented game (notably RTS games), the balancing and feedback are gathered from hundreds of proven competitive players playing competitive matches. The way that Konami hires a guy who runs a website, especially someone who isn't know to be a top player, shows that they have no idea what it means to involve the community.

Just look at the patch notes included with the last patch, it says nothing useful for the players to determine what exactly has been changed. This is clear indication that either it is intentionally left ambiguous as to hide some kind of shortcoming, or the communication gap between Japan and UK has yet been amended even with Jon Murphy now in charge.

To have one guy who twists the facts and even his own opinion back and forth to the swaying public opinion "filter" the community feedback is not the way to do things.

We have all seen it before, all of "I can't tell you yet, but just believe me" statements from Adam. Yet when the game comes out and clearly contradicts his previous statements, what does he expect people to think?

Successful games created based on feedback are not done this way. Dev teams are mostly transparent after the initial version comes out. Sites like PESStat would be a much more beneficial resource to use than a news site admin like Adam. Whatever feedback he can muster will not be based upon facts and data cause he simply do not have them. What he has in excess are only the biased opinions of the fanboy flock he shepherded over the years.

If only Konami knew how Adam banned anyone with a critical view of PES2012, they would have known to not use the guy. Ever since PES promised to listen to community feedback, sales have declined. This won't be the first franchise to be ruined by fanboys, it is just sad to see Konami fall into this trap like other have before.

 

[pj_puttz]

Cause the people who actually make the game are people in Japan, not people in the UK.

If you look at the way community feedback is handled with any technical oriented game (notably RTS games), the balancing and feedback are gathered from hundreds of proven competitive players playing competitive matches. The way that Konami hires a guy who runs a website, especially someone who isn't know to be a top player, shows that they have no idea what it means to involve the community.

Just look at the patch notes included with the last patch, it says nothing useful for the players to determine what exactly has been changed. This is clear indication that either it is intentionally left ambiguous as to hide some kind of shortcoming, or the communication gap between Japan and UK has yet been amended even with Jon Murphy now in charge.

To have one guy who twists the facts and even his own opinion back and forth to the swaying public opinion "filter" the community feedback is not the way to do things.

We have all seen it before, all of "I can't tell you yet, but just believe me" statements from Adam. Yet when the game comes out and clearly contradicts his previous statements, what does he expect people to think?

Successful games created based on feedback are not done this way. Dev teams are mostly transparent after the initial version comes out. Sites like PESStat would be a much more beneficial resource to use than a news site admin like Adam. Whatever feedback he can muster will not be based upon facts and data cause he simply do not have them. What he has in excess are only the biased opinions of the fanboy flock he shepherded over the years.

If only Konami knew how Adam banned anyone with a critical view of PES2012, they would have known to not use the guy. Ever since PES promised to listen to community feedback, sales have declined. This won't be the first franchise to be ruined by fanboys, it is just sad to see Konami fall into this trap like other have before.

Well said sir!

Someone who bans people from a public forum simply for not agreeing with his point of view is NOT someone who should be anywhere near the development of any PES game.

 

[Ameppe]

Well said sir!

Someone who bans people from a public forum simply for not agreeing with his point of view is NOT someone who should be anywhere near the development of any PES game.

that is another reason why i'm not happy about Adam being our "inside man"

Maybe i'm being too pessimistic, i just don't want to be fooled again by hype

 

[Robbery]

It is fine if some teams play with 9 men camped in their box, some teams actually do this in real life. But when they hoof the ball clear and 90%+ of the time it falls perfectly to the single attacker it is so annoying.

This is something that annoys me too. One or two time it would be ok, but it happen way to much. Meanwhile it is not very dangerous, because you know it will happen, but it just feels wrong.

The likes of Holt (Norwich) and Kenwine Jones can easily dribble around your defence as if they weren't there.

Here i have to disagree, because i believe it depends on how effective you defend. I don't see a lot of this situation anymore and most of the time i stop them from dribbling. The quick short passing is much harder to defend then dribbling for example.

 

[Robbery]

As i posted yesterday, here is the first half of my last away game against Kaiserslautern. As said before it was a terrible game offensively but i think it is a good example for defending against the CPU. And it is a good example to show, that you don't need to play brilliant or perfect and are still able to beat the CPU just by solid defending.

YouTube - Kaiserslautern vs FC Bayern München - Halbzeit 1 - PES 2012

I don't see any cheating there and again, i only concede 10 goals in 17 matches, so maybe some of you understand why i don't see this "CPU scoring at will" or "can't stop them".

Maybe it is a little bit easier to understand why some of us enjoy this game because some of the negative things are just not happening to me (anymore). And i truly believe it has a lot to do with stopping the CPU from scoring. If you feel cheated every game you won't get any fun at all.

 

[Srider]

As i posted yesterday, here is the first half of my last away game against Kaiserslautern. As said before it was a terrible game offensively but i think it is a good example for defending against the CPU. And it is a good example to show, that you don't need to play brilliant or perfect and are still able to beat the CPU just by solid defending.

I don't see any cheating there and again, i only concede 10 goals in 17 matches, so maybe some of you understand why i don't see this "CPU scoring at will" or "can't stop them".

Maybe it is a little bit easier to understand why some of us enjoy this game because some of the negative things are just not happening to me (anymore). And i truly believe it has a lot to do with stopping the CPU from scoring. If you feel cheated every game you won't get any fun at all.

I hate to be negative, but you are playing as Bayern against a lower tier team. I wonder if you end up having a harder time defending playing Bayern vs Bayern.

Just out of curiosity here, what are you average Shots on Goal, Average Possession, and Shots Faced stat in Track Record? And what difficulty you are playing on?

Just for comparison, I've played over 300 matches exclusively on Superstar difficulty, pretty much all as ManU versus top teams like Bayern/AC Milan/Real Madrid/Barcelona, and my avg stats are:

Shots on Goal 9.16
Shots Faced 13.59
Average Possession 55%
Average Passes Completed 82%

My win average is a measly 25%

I'm really curious to see how the stats stack up against people who enjoy the game, those who don't, and the ones that have problems with defending and ones who don't.

 

[pj_puttz]

I wouldn't say "only" conceding 10 goals in 17 games is anything to shout about anyway to be honest! It's hardly a rock solid defence is it?

Most of the time I am able to stop the AI with good defending too but the fact remains that sometimes the AI goes into "god mode" and even when I try to hack the player down or crowd him out he still somehow skips past me. He might not always score a goal after his mazy run, which renders your "goals conceded stat" argument useless anyway, but he sure as hell is carving out a chance for himself or a team mate no matter what I do.

I thought the AI cheating debate had been put to bed a long time ago anyway. Didn't Seabass all but admit the game has scripted moments where the AI cheats it's way back into the game? It stops being an argument or a matter or perception when the game designer himself admits it happens surely?

 

[Ern Dog]

If you look at the way community feedback is handled with any technical oriented game (notably RTS games), the balancing and feedback are gathered from hundreds of proven competitive players playing competitive matches. The way that Konami hires a guy who runs a website, especially someone who isn't know to be a top player, shows that they have no idea what it means to involve the community.

I am not saying that involving WENB in the making of the game is a good thing, but have you seen how the competitive PES players play?
Listening to them would be the worst thing Konami could do.

YouTube - PES 2011 World Finals: Final Match Part 1

If Konami listened to these guys they would end up making the most unrealistic PES ever.

 

[Pere Ubu]

I am not saying that involving WENB in the making of the game is a good thing, but have you seen how the competitive PES players play?
Listening to them would be the worst thing Konami could do.

YouTube - PES 2011 World Finals: Final Match Part 1

If Konami listened to these guys they would end up making the most unrealistic PES ever.

I think a big part of the problem is that Konami don't want to alienate those people. Them and the MLO / Lobby 1 slags. I think perhaps they know that if they offered a very strict simulation game with no opportunities for cheap play (assuming they're capable of going that far), the PES hardcore would lap it up, but the pressure whores / sprint spammers / cutback heroes would stop buying the game. So we don't get a proper stamina system, the cutback glitch is never fixed, and hold-down-pressure-buttons-and-bump-into-people is still a very effective way of defending.

 

[Srider]

I am not saying that involving WENB in the making of the game is a good thing, but have you seen how the competitive PES players play?
Listening to them would be the worst thing Konami could do.

If Konami listened to these guys they would end up making the most unrealistic PES ever.

I agree that the way people play the game online or at tournament level exploiting different aspect of the game isn't pretty to look at. Yet this is exactly why Konami needs to look at videos like this.

Their current design allows for this kinds of play, and if this wasn't what they intended, they need to fix it so that people can't win a tournament playing that way.

All of the big competitive games (Strategy/Fighting) had unintended and highly effective strategies that were either patched out, or balanced so they can be countered. Konami has the means to observe how people play the game, and they now have the power to adjust balance thanks to online patching, why don't they do it? Why rely on highly biased opinions posted on a fanboy forum?

 

[Robbery]

I hate to be negative, but you are playing as Bayern against a lower tier team. I wonder if you end up having a harder time defending playing Bayern vs Bayern.

I don't plan to record games of my current season it was just a spontaneous decision yesterday. Unfortunately the last game was against Kaiserslautern, so i record this one. The game before this game was against Dortmund, i won 2-0 and i believe they had 3 shots on goal too.

But anyway, people saying you can't defend in this game against the CPU - even against lower opponents. It doesn't matter if you are playing against Barca or Kaiserslautern, if the CPU decide to score they will score. They dribbel past your players no matter what you do. They counter you and score and you can't defend it.

I don't think that is the case (probably on higher levels) but i think a lot of the frustration comes with conceding goals and feeling some kind of helpless defending against the CPU.

Look at this thread it is full of negative things. If someone like me saying "oh, i don't see it that way" people are saying "he is such a fanboy he will never see it". But maybe i don't see it because it doesn't happen to me. Maybe i don't see this "scoring at will" because they don't score at will against me.

Just out of curiosity here, what are you average Shots on Goal, Average Possession, and Shots Faced stat in Track Record? And what difficulty you are playing on?

Just for comparison, I've played over 300 matches exclusively on Superstar difficulty, pretty much all as ManU versus top teams like Bayern/AC Milan/Real Madrid/Barcelona, and my avg stats are:

Shots on Goal 9.16
Shots Faced 13.59
Average Possession 55%
Average Passes Completed 82%

My win average is a measly 25%

I'm really curious to see how the stats stack up against people who enjoy the game, those who don't, and the ones that have problems with defending and ones who don't.

I really don't know my stats overall. I don't record the game to show how good i play (i play really bad in this one). My Point was my believing that many of the negative saying has something to do with effective defending and conceding goal after goal. I just want to show that there are ways to defend against the CPU.

 

[Robbery]

I wouldn't say "only" conceding 10 goals in 17 games is anything to shout about anyway to be honest! It's hardly a rock solid defence is it?

Most of the time I am able to stop the AI with good defending too but the fact remains that sometimes the AI goes into "god mode" and even when I try to hack the player down or crowd him out he still somehow skips past me. He might not always score a goal after his mazy run, which renders your "goals conceded stat" argument useless anyway, but he sure as hell is carving out a chance for himself or a team mate no matter what I do.

I thought the AI cheating debate had been put to bed a long time ago anyway. Didn't Seabass all but admit the game has scripted moments where the AI cheats it's way back into the game? It stops being an argument or a matter or perception when the game designer himself admits it happens surely?

I think 10 goals in 17 games is a solid defense. But it is definitely not "you can't stop them from scoring" and that is the main thing for me.

Again, i don't want to talk about playing good or playing bad or playing wrong. That is not my point. My point and i truly believe it, is that a lot of the frustration has something to do with stopping the CPU from scoring. I believe if people could stop the CPU from scoring they would have so much more fun with this game. And you can stop them, that is my point.

Anyway, the second half is on youtube:

YouTube - Kaiserslautern vs FC Bayern München - Halbzeit 2 - PES 2012

They had one more shot on my goal. I end up winning 2-0 and hold them at 3 shoots overall.

 

[Srider]

I think 10 goals in 17 games is a solid defense. But it is definitely not "you can't stop them from scoring" and that is the main thing for me.

Again, i don't want to talk about playing good or playing bad or playing wrong. That is not my point. My point and i truly believe it, is that a lot of the frustration has something to do with stopping the CPU from scoring. I believe if people could stop the CPU from scoring they would have so much more fun with this game. And you can stop them, that is my point.

Anyway, the second half is on youtube:


They had one more shot on my goal. I end up winning 2-0 and hold them at 3 shoots overall.

You never told us what difficulty you are playing. Watching the video you posted it doesn't look like you are playing any of the harder difficulties. It's obvious if you turn down the difficulty, not only is the CPU less aggressive in attack, but they do not press as much either as evident in your video.

 

[Robbery]

You never told us what difficulty you are playing. Watching the video you posted it doesn't look like you are playing any of the harder difficulties. It's obvious if you turn down the difficulty, not only is the CPU less aggressive in attack, but they do not press as much either as evident in your video.

This game was played on professional but that doesn't really matter. Simply because most of the negative things in this thread comes from people playing on professional level too.

If you followed the discussion you will find that most of the people think that professional level is the level where the "cheating" begins. Only a few play this game on topplayer or superstar.

Of course it is even more difficult if you play on topplayer or superstar, we don't need to talk about that. But for the most this game is "unplayable" already on professional. Is it? What do you think? Is it possible to stop the CPU from scoring on this difficulty? I think it is and that is what i'm trying to say.

 

[arthurm]

The biggest flaw in the game is that the computer can pretty much ignore its own stats whenever it desires.

Exactly. It's always been the case with PES, the cpu can just go into god mode whenever it needs to and essentially script the play.

It's little wonder so many people have turned their backs on this game. Being cheated is not fun. The only fans left for this game are those oblivious to the cpu cheating. FIFA is far from a good game of football, but I'm not surprised so many former PES fans have switched to it.

 

[Robbery]

I don't think people turn to FIFA because of cheating. FIFA cheats you not less, for example on World Glass and Legendary they read every slide tackle you are going to make. Stats doesn't matter at all in FIFA too if you play on a higher level.

 

[Thespeedster84]

To be honest, I am disturbed by PES 2012 dribbling animation especially while making a turn and some of GK animation.

 

[Messiah Ban Victim]

I don't think people turn to FIFA because of cheating. FIFA cheats you not less, for example on World Glass and Legendary they read every slide tackle you are going to make. Stats doesn't matter at all in FIFA too if you play on a higher level.

I dont think everybody who walks away from pes go straight to fifa. Off course some do, but i think you underestimate the amount of hard core pes players that just wlked away from footys in general. Like me, i am waiting for a good pes again. But fifa cant give me what i want.

So, i dont play at all (besides the occaisional pes night with mates and beer), and i think alot of old pessers are playing the waiting game too.