vanzandt
The answer must be Jam
- 26 July 2007
- Everton
Re: Serie A Thread
And you were correct, I did not mean to suggest you were not I was just offering a reference on what went before and how we ended up with 4-4-2 and how our use of it differed from Brazil.
Thanks for the kind words.
It is nice to read your posts, the comments are almost always justified and intelligently made. I have appreciated your posts detailing Roma recently especially.
I said earlier that I would comment when I came back on the rest of your post. I am not sure I useful it would be to do so. You have given me good detail that I did not know prior and covered the issue well that I already knew. Good post.
This is one point I was trying to put across, but it is like a handshake, I was not educating you on the point just offering agreement because I knew the point is something you well understood.
Too many football fans still talk of the system as though the numbers give you a rigid way of play or of a 100% type of game, but that is of course complete rubbish.
A few years ago in England I heard commentators suggesting to one another that the 4-4-2 was dead as an international system of play because in a particular Euro championship a lot of teams were employing a 3-5-2 system. The commentators were suggesting that 4-4-2 was now maybe found to be flawed because you couldn’t control the midfield again such teams employing the extra man.
I thought how truly stupid are these people!!
First of all the players, play on the pitch not on paper. That the system might suggest one less player in midfield on paper but that means nothing in practice. I was thinking that 4-4-2 as is not really one system at all, as there as many ways of playing it etc. I was thinking equally 3-5-2 can be played many ways, right and wrong for differing situations. I was thinking that sometimes tactics can be to press home differing advantages, midfield control, quick counters etc and that always the idea of an extra man does not mean success. I was thinking that how well the players pass the ball, how well they play and execute the play and tactics is just as key as the tactics themselves etc…
I know you will be on my wave length and agree with me on this, anyone who truly understands football knows these fundamentals.
A example of th number meaning nothing came in a very bad away game that Everton played at Middlesboro in the F.A about 5 years ago….I do not remember the actual date but it was a dark day to support Everton.
The coach sent out Everton supposedly to play 3-5-2 and that is what was given as the formation on the television. Everton played the game with two defensive fullbacks supposedly in midfield in the wide midfield positions. Of course there natural tendency was to funnel back towards their own traditional positions at full back. So the name of the formation might have been 3-5-2, but in effect it was 5-3-2. We had a left back at right mid who became a right back, a left back at left mid who became a left back….we had an attacking mid that we played in a def mid role who dribbled the ball in our own half causing danger for us, who never dribbled where it could hurt the opposition…and we had two defensive mids in semi attacking mid roles as part of the central three who could not retain possession. Add to all this we had two short centre forwards who had no supply from wide positions apart from deep wide positions which meant long inaccurate passing to them in the air and we had two defensive mids dropping deep and getting in the way of the defensive mid who was dribbling in bad positions.
We were hammered, we had no control of the ball and the system was never 3-5-2 despite the captions saying otherwise. Yet when you talked to people after the game they said that we played badly because 3-5-2 was a bad system….hilariously sad if you understand me!!
Formations on paper mean little, it is the true formation on the pitch and the roles and actions on the pitch within the formations and the ability and the talent of the players on the pitch in enact the tactics of the coach. In that respect an orchestra is a very good metaphor for what is required, it is a very nice way to put it.
But I still feel that the tactics are still more versatile in Italy, certainly more teams play more flexibly. Outside of the top teams in England there is still a lot of inflexibility and somewhat rigid use of the flat 4-4-2 in the traditional English sense…with the key being the players much more so that tactical maneuvers.
I think that there is probably more use of the split striker still in seria a as well.
On the Inzaghi note once more. The physicality was still part of the equation and thinking that I rectified myself on. In the English league he would not be strong enough to play as a lone striker, even though he is strong enough to do this in seria a. This is nothing to do with some daft idea of players being tougher in England, it is to do with what referees will allow here and the protection then would not give him. Inzaghi has good technique and I see where you are coming from, but in England the coaches would be less likely to understand his use as a lone striker and they would be worried about him getting hammered by CBs….treatment that opposing CBs would like to do to him in seria a, but are not allowed…
You are a mile ahead of me here. My knowledge of seria a is limited and I need to expand on what I know by taking in more games and gathering more experience of the Italian game.
And you have many fine exponents of the game in this position. Nesta has been one of the best CBs of all time for me as were Baresi, Canavaro, Montero, Scirea (all totally brilliant in different ways)….you might laugh I me including Montero in there I don’t know. My view of seria a is not as accurate, I have been looking in through frosted glass for a while. I want to get a better view of it now than before.
I have always rated Inzaghi. Some people have moaned about the number of times he is caught offside, but as a defender he must have been a nightmare to play against over the years because unless you had your eye on him, you would think where is he now is he slipping into space is he turning me etc. And yes he knows where the goal is, no doubt about that, many chances stem from his quick movement and thinking..
I have never doubted his ability. My comments relate to how the English coaches view the use of a front man and what they want from one, which differs form the Italian game. The tendency to cross the ball more which wouldn’t suit his game and the fact that in England….not in Europe with an Italian side playing against an English side….he would not get protected well enough to play that role…he would get badly fouled and whacked about the pitch until he did not want to play…
None of the above takes anything away from Inzaghi, it is just why he wouldn’t be a fit as a lone striker in the England…..But like I said all that is irrelevant apart from being a side note and an explanation on my thinking because Inzaghi is in seria a and not the EPL and I need to see more of his play as a lone striker in the Italian game….I need to see more seria a games period.
On reference to tall forwards and not seeing two on them played that often in the EPL you said;
No what you said was perfectly ok, I was just making my own point, not correcting you I knew what you meant.
And you were correct, I did not mean to suggest you were not I was just offering a reference on what went before and how we ended up with 4-4-2 and how our use of it differed from Brazil.
and many things u wrote are new to me, so thank u Van, really nice post
talking about the things u wrote i already knew instead, i absolutely agree with u
Thanks for the kind words.
It is nice to read your posts, the comments are almost always justified and intelligently made. I have appreciated your posts detailing Roma recently especially.
I said earlier that I would comment when I came back on the rest of your post. I am not sure I useful it would be to do so. You have given me good detail that I did not know prior and covered the issue well that I already knew. Good post.
This is one point I was trying to put across, but it is like a handshake, I was not educating you on the point just offering agreement because I knew the point is something you well understood.
Too many football fans still talk of the system as though the numbers give you a rigid way of play or of a 100% type of game, but that is of course complete rubbish.
A few years ago in England I heard commentators suggesting to one another that the 4-4-2 was dead as an international system of play because in a particular Euro championship a lot of teams were employing a 3-5-2 system. The commentators were suggesting that 4-4-2 was now maybe found to be flawed because you couldn’t control the midfield again such teams employing the extra man.
I thought how truly stupid are these people!!
First of all the players, play on the pitch not on paper. That the system might suggest one less player in midfield on paper but that means nothing in practice. I was thinking that 4-4-2 as is not really one system at all, as there as many ways of playing it etc. I was thinking equally 3-5-2 can be played many ways, right and wrong for differing situations. I was thinking that sometimes tactics can be to press home differing advantages, midfield control, quick counters etc and that always the idea of an extra man does not mean success. I was thinking that how well the players pass the ball, how well they play and execute the play and tactics is just as key as the tactics themselves etc…
I know you will be on my wave length and agree with me on this, anyone who truly understands football knows these fundamentals.
A example of th number meaning nothing came in a very bad away game that Everton played at Middlesboro in the F.A about 5 years ago….I do not remember the actual date but it was a dark day to support Everton.
The coach sent out Everton supposedly to play 3-5-2 and that is what was given as the formation on the television. Everton played the game with two defensive fullbacks supposedly in midfield in the wide midfield positions. Of course there natural tendency was to funnel back towards their own traditional positions at full back. So the name of the formation might have been 3-5-2, but in effect it was 5-3-2. We had a left back at right mid who became a right back, a left back at left mid who became a left back….we had an attacking mid that we played in a def mid role who dribbled the ball in our own half causing danger for us, who never dribbled where it could hurt the opposition…and we had two defensive mids in semi attacking mid roles as part of the central three who could not retain possession. Add to all this we had two short centre forwards who had no supply from wide positions apart from deep wide positions which meant long inaccurate passing to them in the air and we had two defensive mids dropping deep and getting in the way of the defensive mid who was dribbling in bad positions.
We were hammered, we had no control of the ball and the system was never 3-5-2 despite the captions saying otherwise. Yet when you talked to people after the game they said that we played badly because 3-5-2 was a bad system….hilariously sad if you understand me!!
Formations on paper mean little, it is the true formation on the pitch and the roles and actions on the pitch within the formations and the ability and the talent of the players on the pitch in enact the tactics of the coach. In that respect an orchestra is a very good metaphor for what is required, it is a very nice way to put it.
But I still feel that the tactics are still more versatile in Italy, certainly more teams play more flexibly. Outside of the top teams in England there is still a lot of inflexibility and somewhat rigid use of the flat 4-4-2 in the traditional English sense…with the key being the players much more so that tactical maneuvers.
I think that there is probably more use of the split striker still in seria a as well.
On the Inzaghi note once more. The physicality was still part of the equation and thinking that I rectified myself on. In the English league he would not be strong enough to play as a lone striker, even though he is strong enough to do this in seria a. This is nothing to do with some daft idea of players being tougher in England, it is to do with what referees will allow here and the protection then would not give him. Inzaghi has good technique and I see where you are coming from, but in England the coaches would be less likely to understand his use as a lone striker and they would be worried about him getting hammered by CBs….treatment that opposing CBs would like to do to him in seria a, but are not allowed…
You are a mile ahead of me here. My knowledge of seria a is limited and I need to expand on what I know by taking in more games and gathering more experience of the Italian game.
And you have many fine exponents of the game in this position. Nesta has been one of the best CBs of all time for me as were Baresi, Canavaro, Montero, Scirea (all totally brilliant in different ways)….you might laugh I me including Montero in there I don’t know. My view of seria a is not as accurate, I have been looking in through frosted glass for a while. I want to get a better view of it now than before.
I have always rated Inzaghi. Some people have moaned about the number of times he is caught offside, but as a defender he must have been a nightmare to play against over the years because unless you had your eye on him, you would think where is he now is he slipping into space is he turning me etc. And yes he knows where the goal is, no doubt about that, many chances stem from his quick movement and thinking..
when he's waiting the ball (with his back oriented towards the net) he makes a couple of steps backwards, till he can touch the cb's body. then he litterally leans on the cb's body. when this happens the cb is screwed.... he can't do anything anymore.
inzaghi waits for the ball, and when it arrives to him he can easily turn around the cb, using his body as a lever, and shoot.
the cb has not a clear vision of what is happening, coz inzaghi is just ahead of him;
he can't intercept the pass because he's just behind inzaghi;
he can't push him, coz it would be a penalty;
he can't make a step backwards, coz inzaghi (who is leant on him) would fall on the ground, and it would be a penalty.
that's a terrific technique, coz it allows u to elude every cb's coverage (the bigger they are, the easily it is for inzaghi to "feel" their bodies with his back). there's just one way to avoid it. u have to try to cover inzaghi staying far from him... at least 3 steps..... but gifting 3 steps space to inzaghi is a suicide move, so....:mrgreen:
inzaghi scored many goals this way, against italian, german, spanish, english defences. i'm pretty sure if u'll do a search on youtube, u'll find at least one of theese goals.
I have never doubted his ability. My comments relate to how the English coaches view the use of a front man and what they want from one, which differs form the Italian game. The tendency to cross the ball more which wouldn’t suit his game and the fact that in England….not in Europe with an Italian side playing against an English side….he would not get protected well enough to play that role…he would get badly fouled and whacked about the pitch until he did not want to play…
None of the above takes anything away from Inzaghi, it is just why he wouldn’t be a fit as a lone striker in the England…..But like I said all that is irrelevant apart from being a side note and an explanation on my thinking because Inzaghi is in seria a and not the EPL and I need to see more of his play as a lone striker in the Italian game….I need to see more seria a games period.
On reference to tall forwards and not seeing two on them played that often in the EPL you said;
yep, actually by saying "it happened many times" i meant to say 10, 15 times in the last 50 years.... while in italy it never happened.... btw 10\15 times isn't "many times", you're right, i just didn't express myself properly
No what you said was perfectly ok, I was just making my own point, not correcting you I knew what you meant.
, but he's still very young and unexperienced and yesterday he was playing off role. besides, when u see vieri running like a rhino towards your goalkeeper..... well it must be quite scaring :lol:
).
. he would really coming handy to ancelotti at the moment.
.
I can just wait until the day that I can legally drink Italian wine :lol:
