Real football vs PES simulation ***Where has Konami gone wrong?***

I like this thread :)

Rob - exactly right about the lack of backswing and animations/ball movement for placed shots. Your curling shot with Villa is nice, but even then it doesn't have that much actual bend to it. And the animation looks terrible. There is a weird follow through where it seems the leg just swings across his body and slices the ball instead of wrapping his foot around it and kicking through the line.

Gab - I understand what you mean about the little touches. I tend to think it's pretty good at the moment. The lower guys definitely can't dribble like the better guys. But would you really notice the difference when playing from your camera angle if they made the animation random so maybe the ball moved 1 foot in front of you and then 1.5 feet and slightly off centre the next time you touched it?

Half way through this video, I scored an MLO goal with some nice curl to it. I think I did full power then R2 but I haven't really been able to replicate it since! And notice the nice little drag back he does to beat the first defender and face towards goals...left stick subtlety. And if you look at Cisse's goal at the end in MLO, it shows the subtleties of small movements in the left stick again when dribbling, and using the special control button.

YouTube - PES 2011 goals
 
kobayashi said:
I can understand why your playing PES 5 or WE9 which is the greatest football game ever released, but for me PES 2011 has finally beaten it pretty comfortably in terms of simulation despite many flaws, i think i could go back to PES5 on the PC though if i can get the right patch as it's still a top game and it's a 'complete game' where as PES 2011 is very basic in a a few areas.

You could probably get PES 2011 on the cheap now, I'd recommend it to give the dribbling a try again, or just get it on the PC with patches etc..
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I would get it again but i had it on my 360 and then when i bought a PS3 i re-purchased and it went pretty unused so i sold it because i was in the process of selling some old games anyway, plus my PC isn't good enought to run it. I would have kept it but my house mates are utter bores who never wanted to play it and like any other sports title it shines when playing against real people more so than the AI. Evidential proof there, not that we needed it, that Konami's game just doesn't rub off well on casual/non-gamers/crap-gamers.

PES 2011 has comfortably beaten PES5 in technical areas. I've only really been playing WE9LE recently because a)i have it, unlike PES 2011 b)i can't get new games to run on my laptop c)i still believe the format of the ML to be much more enjoyable. d)i wanted to test out the up to date patch.

I'm gonna hold out till PES2012 because i do think they're onto a winner if it ends up being a more refined version of 2011.
 
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I hate complaining constantly but i mean i was watching Calcio's video (top of the page) just there and whilst those goals are nice (kudos) it reminded me about issues that i hope get addressed.

Passing - The opening 4 seconds 3/4 passes get sprayed around so fast, first time and perfectly to feet. Instantly struck me as odd, the passing speed and the way it doesn't deviate from ground enough has always confused me.

Shooting - It's just there are so many powerful shots from well outside of the box that stay close to the ground - almost bullet like. Maybe i'm in the wrong here but i personally can't remember seeing too many goals like that in real life. If you hit the ball with power, as players do in the video, it will rise 90% of the time or balloon away from goal. That doesn't happen enough in PES.

Crossing - 1.45. I hope that player is left footed because he gets an awful lot of power and precision on that cross to keep is so low without having to slow down. I commented before on how the video somebody posted of Gareth Bale in this thread showed that players cut inside a bit or slow down first if they want to generate precision and/or power on a cross.

I'm going to stop complaining now.
 
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Gab_ said:
Another thing I would like to see implemented in PES that I have been asking for in FIFA is that every ball touch when sprinting should have error applied in both direction and length. It's too samey now, in real life you might get a touch that is to weak so that you have to slow down a little to make the next touch good and so on. You would then have a clear difference between a fast top player and a fast lower league player, like we have in real life. Because the shorter touches you make, the harder it is to keep a steady high speed.
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That should depend on stats, specially the technique stat.
 
Northzzz said:
I hate complaining constantly but i mean i was watching Calcio's video (top of the page) just there and whilst those goals are nice (kudos) it reminded me about issues that i hope get addressed.

Passing - The opening 4 seconds 3/4 passes get sprayed around so fast, first time and perfectly to feet. Instantly struck me as odd, the passing speed and the way it doesn't deviate from ground enough has always confused me.

Shooting - It's just there are so many powerful shots from well outside of the box that stay close to the ground - almost bullet like. Maybe i'm in the wrong here but i personally can't remember seeing too many goals like that in real life. If you hit the ball with power, as players do in the video, it will rise 90% of the time or balloon away from goal. That doesn't happen enough in PES.

Crossing - 1.45. I hope that player is left footed because he gets an awful lot of power and precision on that cross to keep is so low without having to slow down. I commented before on how the video somebody posted of Gareth Bale in this thread showed that players cut inside a bit or slow down first if they want to generate precision and/or power on a cross.

I'm going to stop complaining now.
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I take all my replays with a pinch of salt as you notice small glitches in the background. But in the heat of the moment they look great! lol

The first passing passage is with Real Madrid so they do have fairly good passing stats, and the replay speed might make it look worse than it is during gameplay. But yes they are all first touch passes that are very accurate.

The shooting along the ground I'm not sure on. There's a few of those goals that go at least a couple of feet off the ground or higher - the ones on the ground could be due to the amount of time I've pressed the button for or exactly where I've aimed the stick perhaps? I know some people don't like the shots that keep rising without realistic physics.

Although, I do see sometimes crosses where the ball drops/dips a bit more naturally, so there should be scope for the shooting engine to include that kind of movement where relevant.

I've seen your comment on the low cross before and I agree. It doesn't appear to fit in with the sim element as much. It's too assisted or accurate. More of them should go to the keeper, behind the goal or be overhit. At the moment the low cross unrealistically accurate. The air crosses don't seem to be though.
 
where konami went wrong?

they went wrong when they released pes 2008.

if they want to be able just to compete with fifa series, they must go back to the year of 2006, the year of pes5, we9 and pes6. only true pes games worth of mentioning.

if they keep this way, just upgrading bad pes titles from pes 2008 'till pes 2011, they will dig their own graves.

fifa ran them out in last 4 years.
 
I agree about the refs, I much preferred the demo's system where you could put your body between the defender and the ball and actually draw fouls from the opponents - this would have been a good tactic online against people who dive into tackles constantly.

I also swear the tackling was less "automatic" than the full game.

MadbaLL said:
fifa ran them out in last 4 years.
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FIFA 08 and Euro 2008 are the only ones worthy of mentioning in the same breath as PES...

The whole FIFA series before 08, and after Euro 2008 has been a complete arcadey mess.

PES 2011 is so far ahead of FIFA 11 it's ridiculous.

Also, PES 2011 is NOTHING like PES 2008...
 
Don't like blabber, I'll keep it short.
Some of you's mentioned PES2011 restricted in beating a man and feel pressured into constantly pinging it around in a manner unrepresentative of many teams except Barcelona.

YouTube - Theo Walcott Run vs Liverpool HD

This looks almost like WE9LE gameplay to me. More importantly, Can THIS be done with players like Walcott in PES2011? Discuss.
 
I don't think it can. PES 2011 still features the ability to dribble the ball past oncoming defenders if they commit themselves to tackles like they try to do against Walcott (which i like) but there's no decent ability to push the ball and run onto it like it looks as if he does (0.18) - unlike Fifa's right stick. In that video a player rushes behind him at about 0.21 and by 0.26 realises Walcott is too fast to be caught up and just gives up - that sense of acceleration and speed is not in PES 2011. That defender would have caught up with him, battle him from behind (which to me is a serious faux pas because as you can see he doesn't want to tackle him from behind in the video in case of a tripping him) and end up getting shoulder to shoulder with Walcott, who not being the strongest player, would have fallen victim to that little stumbling animation.

That's my hypothesis.

My null hypothesis would be that you would not score a goal if you tried something like that.
 
The beauty of left stick dribbling + R2 combination. PES is MILES ahead of FIFA when it comes to how players feel when dribbling. The possibilities created by a change of pace and direction are staggering.

Look at this:

l_stickDribbling.gif


It is almost a perfect representation of real world dribbling.

My main gripe with the game is the AI movement off the ball. If they could add some of the same realistic movement restrictions that players on the ball have, playing against the AI might actually be fun.
 
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sincover said:
The beauty of left stick dribbling + R2 combination. PES is MILES ahead of FIFA when it comes to how players feel when dribbling. The possibilities created by a change of pace and direction are staggering.

Look at this:

l_stickDribbling.gif


It is almost a perfect representation of real world dribbling.
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I agree 100%. The fact my own dribbling game has reached a whole new level is testament to both it's vast depth and also the relevant level of technique required to even begin to hope to master.
 
that number player 20 controls the ball and turns like a robot.... :LOL:
 
Musy said:
Don't like blabber, I'll keep it short.
Some of you's mentioned PES2011 restricted in beating a man and feel pressured into constantly pinging it around in a manner unrepresentative of many teams except Barcelona.

YouTube - Theo Walcott Run vs Liverpool HD

This looks almost like WE9LE gameplay to me. More importantly, Can THIS be done with players like Walcott in PES2011? Discuss.
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Yes, it's all about timing the use of R1+R2 with the left stick. I scored a fair few crosses from long runs with fast wingers! It's about getting the balance right between tapping R1 and Holding it with R1+R2.

people just need to adapt. Goals like this were much easier in previous pes games! Most of time you just held the R1 button and whooosh!

Northzzz said:
I don't think it can. PES 2011 still features the ability to dribble the ball past oncoming defenders if they commit themselves to tackles like they try to do against Walcott (which i like) but there's no decent ability to push the ball and run onto it like it looks as if he does (0.18) - unlike Fifa's right stick. In that video a player rushes behind him at about 0.21 and by 0.26 realises Walcott is too fast to be caught up and just gives up - that sense of acceleration and speed is not in PES 2011. That defender would have caught up with him, battle him from behind (which to me is a serious faux pas because as you can see he doesn't want to tackle him from behind in the video in case of a tripping him) and end up getting shoulder to shoulder with Walcott, who not being the strongest player, would have fallen victim to that little stumbling animation.

That's my hypothesis.

My null hypothesis would be that you would not score a goal if you tried something like that.
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Disagree. It's just a lot harder to do on PES 2011 than on previous games. There is this 'catch up' rubber band thing but you can still if you mater it break away from any player On FIFA 09 and older PES games like i said, it was esay, not just pushing the left stick ahead You could just hold R1 or the sprint button with a fat payer and WHOOOSH!!!

On PES it's all about adapting to R1+R2. Remember the dribbling is 360 and the R1+R2 pushes the ball ahead if you change direction, thing is you only need to change direction just a tad to push the ball ahead and maintain you distance from defenders.

While i was testing the Barca formation i used madrid and my 'only' outlet was to just sprint with Crisitano because the barca defenders just couldn't catch him, it's mostly tapping R1 then Using the R1+R2 when there's space ahead to run into.

I use it to beat players a lot, I'll upload a video of me (Ribery) running 80 m with Drogba chasing but me maintaining a sizable distance. If it was that defenders always caught you when sprinting Drogba would had caught ribery in the 80m sprint.

YouTube - Rubber banding? Tap R1 to stay ahead!
 
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YouTube - PES 2011 - David Villa curling strike

Jamezinho said:
Something I hope PES2012 builds on is a feeling of momentum and inertia, something which is lacking in the current game.
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Spot on. If you look at how Villa unnaturally 'jerks' to the right and left before the goal, there is no feeling of shifting his weight 'inertia'. Problem is a mixture of game speed, jerky animation and sensitivity of the analogue stick.

Even those moving dribble jpg's posted by SINCOVER only look like breathtakingly natural dribbling when slowed down in replays.
 
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kobayashi said:
On PES it's all about adapting to R1+R2. Remember the dribbling is 360 and the R1+R2 pushes the ball ahead if you change direction, thing is you only need to change direction just a tad to push the ball ahead and maintain you distance from defenders.
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Good point. Never thought of it that way. Would love to see a vid of that in action, replicating the Walcott assist - if that's possible lol
 
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Another area that needs works is the ball physics. It's not bad in PES2011 per se, but not that great either. The ball physics are inconsistent, that's the issue. Sometimes the ball slows down unnaturally quickly when rolling along the ground, and I don't feel the ball moves through the air, nor spins and dips as organically as in Fifa.
 
Jamezinho said:
Another area that needs works is the ball physics. It's not bad in PES2011 per se, but not that great either. The ball physics are inconsistent, that's the issue. Sometimes the ball slows down unnaturally quickly when rolling along the ground, and I don't feel the ball moves through the air, nor spins and dips as organically as in Fifa.
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pretty much everything with "physics" in it on PES 2011 is at least half broken. Hope the technically limitations Konami Uk talked about doesn't stop them from improving them to something decent in PES 2012.
 
Monkey See Monkey Do said:
Just look at the shooting animation. Does not look realistic at all.

Do Konami actually think that real people shoot like that? It looks handicapped and if Konami can't see simple things like that, they will never be able to add/make good animations.
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Good animations isn't a question of how good Konami are at programming, it's more about having the money and budget available to get enough athletes to provide them which is difficult because of insurance fees etc.. They tried to get players from J-League teams to provide them but like i said, very restricted of what they can do.

It must be improved, absolute must but it's by no means easy! FIFA's look great but take no individuality into account at all! I literally mean 0%. If you see how complex the dribbling is with every player generation a different animations depending on their stats, it's going to take them a while to to make the game look slick.

all of the bad animations I'm sure have been put there as an basis. They use konami staff to do them, it's harder than it looks!

Its the number one thing I'm looking for in PES 2012 but I'm not having a go at them because they ain't brilliant,as i've now found out it's not easy for them in the animations department!
 
In pes 2012 game will be more AI based rather than more eye candy, pes 2010, and pes 2011 have been a major embarassment in this aspect, as gameplay has been forgotten due to graphic overhaul, very unneceassary, in japan and konami they always have this mentality, they just love the graphics of games out there and try to accomplish it in a football game, how unfortunate that this never worked with pes 2010, pes 2011, pes 2012 will just be all about gameplay. InsaAllah, GodWilling.
 
PES 2011 is hardly a graphics-based game... The visuals are nothing special compared to other games, and the animations especially are sufficient at best.

The gameplay leap from PES 2010 to PES 2011 was absolutely massive - I thought '10 was a joke of a game but think '11 is the best football game I've played! They definitely put their efforts into gameplay.
 
pes 2011 was pretty close actually, no doubt the gameplay is advanced than any previous versions but that just makes it a new ball game far more less pes, rob the problem here is konami must stick to the old plan, rather than introduce new gameplay that in return introduces new bugs and glitches, im suprised to see that you really enjoy the game on pc more than any other pes game
 
Why stick to old ways when you can expand and make the game more realistic?

I'm happy for Konami to move away from their old style of football game.

PES 2011 may have more "bugs and glitches" than WE9LE, but the dribbling techniques now available plus the freedom of passing make it by far my preferred game and I hope they go on to add even more depth to the gameplay/controls.
 
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