slamsoze
International
- 28 September 2010
@gabe.paul.logan
It is not a black&white situation ,every one before me, cover my opinion . 2019ML is just boring and heavily needs the good parts of older titles, to becone fun. It doesn't mean the old games are the best like slicebread.
In my modest opinion , it is my turn to suggest that maybe next year 2020 can have some cons and regress more than even 19. If we recall something then doesn't mean we hammered it in the past and we praise it in the future.
When someone critices or judges the pros and cons doesn't mean he curses or makes a game godlike.
In each game there are cons that are fixable and others that are core problems and no patch/update/hotfix/monsterupdate can fix them. In 2019 even those that can be fixed, still seem unfinished.
And to close with a self judgment, 18 was a game i heavily judged ladt year. Some problems where impoved during the year.Its main issue FOR ME is still there today. Although it is still more creative to play an ML in 18 than in 19. This doesn't subtract any credit from 19. And i am talking about physicality.18 has no at all when 19 has very good physical game and fouls and even if the referee is more biased and script driven and denies fouls to the hunan player, you can still have more fouls in 19 compared to the 18, where there is not any collision . Later in the week ill upload a video which summarises the bad collisions in 18.
What i want to conclude is 18 with its flaws (not a t alk a sliced bread ) i still more playble for a ML than 19 The same applies for 17.
Never said it is rubbish .Its longevity is just get shortened.
It is not a black&white situation ,every one before me, cover my opinion . 2019ML is just boring and heavily needs the good parts of older titles, to becone fun. It doesn't mean the old games are the best like slicebread.
In my modest opinion , it is my turn to suggest that maybe next year 2020 can have some cons and regress more than even 19. If we recall something then doesn't mean we hammered it in the past and we praise it in the future.
When someone critices or judges the pros and cons doesn't mean he curses or makes a game godlike.
In each game there are cons that are fixable and others that are core problems and no patch/update/hotfix/monsterupdate can fix them. In 2019 even those that can be fixed, still seem unfinished.
And to close with a self judgment, 18 was a game i heavily judged ladt year. Some problems where impoved during the year.Its main issue FOR ME is still there today. Although it is still more creative to play an ML in 18 than in 19. This doesn't subtract any credit from 19. And i am talking about physicality.18 has no at all when 19 has very good physical game and fouls and even if the referee is more biased and script driven and denies fouls to the hunan player, you can still have more fouls in 19 compared to the 18, where there is not any collision . Later in the week ill upload a video which summarises the bad collisions in 18.
What i want to conclude is 18 with its flaws (not a t alk a sliced bread ) i still more playble for a ML than 19 The same applies for 17.
Never said it is rubbish .Its longevity is just get shortened.
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- Staff
- #9,663
The reason I keep reffering to 17 instead of 13 or any other before that is simple - Im playing 17 now, so I have a clear comparison and examples.
Truth is - I dont remember 13 much. I dont even remember what I had for breakfast yesterday..
I remember it felt great and I had lots of fun with it, but these are just empty words. I can't give you any specific examples about AI behaviours there.
As a child I used to play in this abandoned building. It was huge, like a fortress. Or so I remembered. Went back there couple of years later and it turned out to be more like a shed, than a fortress.
So in case my mind is playing little tricks on me, if it comes to my memories from Pes13, id rather compare it to 17.
And even tho 17's ML is shallow as a mode, offline gameplay proves that Konami is still able to make it enjoyable and we have a reason to fight for it.
It is also easier to fight it, when you say to Konami people - "3 years ago your AI was much better - what the hell happend??"
Instead of "we want Pes like it was back in PS2 days!"
Coz you know what they'll say, if shout the latter? They'll say - "its Nostalgia.."
Truth is - I dont remember 13 much. I dont even remember what I had for breakfast yesterday..
I remember it felt great and I had lots of fun with it, but these are just empty words. I can't give you any specific examples about AI behaviours there.
As a child I used to play in this abandoned building. It was huge, like a fortress. Or so I remembered. Went back there couple of years later and it turned out to be more like a shed, than a fortress.
So in case my mind is playing little tricks on me, if it comes to my memories from Pes13, id rather compare it to 17.
And even tho 17's ML is shallow as a mode, offline gameplay proves that Konami is still able to make it enjoyable and we have a reason to fight for it.
It is also easier to fight it, when you say to Konami people - "3 years ago your AI was much better - what the hell happend??"
Instead of "we want Pes like it was back in PS2 days!"
Coz you know what they'll say, if shout the latter? They'll say - "its Nostalgia.."
slamsoze
International
- 28 September 2010
Also @Emroth is the best "living proof" of this subject, as he played now the 17 so no nostalgia here.
To be honest i was afraid when i was encouraging him to buy and try the 2017, cause despite i have seen we share many similar opinions about PES, but he was of the most optimistic about 19, so i feared that the dated issues of 17 would bother so much him , that he would come back screaming to us : "Bitses@!!!you screwed up my money!!!@"
Despite this he fell in love with the game (relief) proving to me too, that it is not nostalgia, it is what happens when the fundamentals are working fine, even in a recent version
To be honest i was afraid when i was encouraging him to buy and try the 2017, cause despite i have seen we share many similar opinions about PES, but he was of the most optimistic about 19, so i feared that the dated issues of 17 would bother so much him , that he would come back screaming to us : "Bitses@!!!you screwed up my money!!!@"
Despite this he fell in love with the game (relief) proving to me too, that it is not nostalgia, it is what happens when the fundamentals are working fine, even in a recent version
- Staff
- #9,665
I was optimistic about 19 for a long time, that's true. I was trying to look pass the flaws and focus on all the good things, encouraging people not to replay matches and just enjoy a really good "on the ball" feeling..
But its not a game, where you will have couple of seasons in ML. Sooner or later utterly broken AI will break you, I just wasnt at this point yet.
Im kinda glad, that DP4 finished it of for me, coz it made me get 17 quicker.
Is that not strange tho? That half way through life cycle DP4 broke our own team mates so much? The breaking point for me was when my own team mates just went crazy. I couldnt make a run down the wing, coz I was crashing into my own team mate, who wouldnt get out of the way.
My defenders were running into each other, my GK was running into my defenders..
At some point it just became an uncontrollable mess. I always thought Konami patches were small, almost unnoticable tweaks, that were improving gameplay bit by bit. Then out of nowhere they threw this grenade.
Whatever happend with Pes19, I honestly think something went horribly wrong there. Whatever they implemented - graphics, animations, improved ball physics - something was the reason they werent able to tame and control all other elements...
But its not a game, where you will have couple of seasons in ML. Sooner or later utterly broken AI will break you, I just wasnt at this point yet.
Im kinda glad, that DP4 finished it of for me, coz it made me get 17 quicker.
Is that not strange tho? That half way through life cycle DP4 broke our own team mates so much? The breaking point for me was when my own team mates just went crazy. I couldnt make a run down the wing, coz I was crashing into my own team mate, who wouldnt get out of the way.
My defenders were running into each other, my GK was running into my defenders..
At some point it just became an uncontrollable mess. I always thought Konami patches were small, almost unnoticable tweaks, that were improving gameplay bit by bit. Then out of nowhere they threw this grenade.
Whatever happend with Pes19, I honestly think something went horribly wrong there. Whatever they implemented - graphics, animations, improved ball physics - something was the reason they werent able to tame and control all other elements...
chickenhawk
Conference
- 24 September 2018
An update of PES19 ML .
Well i eventually had enough of my Parma ML , Professional, Basic Shooting, PA1. Like Emroth says above the AI broke me about 10 games into season 3. Its the catch up yo-yo script that annoyed me the most, all of a sudden after being 2-0 3-0 up the AI become like Barca and spam you with amazing through balls , top corner rocket shots , all the while your defenders stand off the AI (thats if you can even get control of them before the ball is flying high into the net). Even winning a game 4-3 just felt underwhelming as the AI gave you so much space to attack into and didnt defend from midfield . It was poor. Repetitive gameplay and goals.
So started a new ML with Rangers in SPFL, Top Player . So far its an improvement, much harder to create space and attack which is more rewarding when you score, the AI not so lethal attacking (because of poorer rated opponents?) . I have seen some new animations and it just feels better. Yeh theres still scripting and annoying AI goals(backheeled through balls! Honestly) but they seem more Human and some matches have felt like a proper SPFL match. It might keep me entertained for another month or 2 until PES20.
The shooting needs overhauled, more variety of heights and accuracy reduced i think. Some low/ground shots would be a start, goals from normal corners, dribling round Keeper, Long Shots , deflections ,penalties.
Well i eventually had enough of my Parma ML , Professional, Basic Shooting, PA1. Like Emroth says above the AI broke me about 10 games into season 3. Its the catch up yo-yo script that annoyed me the most, all of a sudden after being 2-0 3-0 up the AI become like Barca and spam you with amazing through balls , top corner rocket shots , all the while your defenders stand off the AI (thats if you can even get control of them before the ball is flying high into the net). Even winning a game 4-3 just felt underwhelming as the AI gave you so much space to attack into and didnt defend from midfield . It was poor. Repetitive gameplay and goals.
So started a new ML with Rangers in SPFL, Top Player . So far its an improvement, much harder to create space and attack which is more rewarding when you score, the AI not so lethal attacking (because of poorer rated opponents?) . I have seen some new animations and it just feels better. Yeh theres still scripting and annoying AI goals(backheeled through balls! Honestly) but they seem more Human and some matches have felt like a proper SPFL match. It might keep me entertained for another month or 2 until PES20.
The shooting needs overhauled, more variety of heights and accuracy reduced i think. Some low/ground shots would be a start, goals from normal corners, dribling round Keeper, Long Shots , deflections ,penalties.
kernowdoc
Court In Session...
You are correct. Pes 2019 is that bad that it even makes 16, 17 and 18 look genius in regards to a single player experience. If they are not going to put the effort in to this part of the game, I wish that they would just come out and admit it and be honest for a change.
- Staff
- #9,668
Loyal "oldschool" fans dont have much patience and faith left and Konami doesnt have much time. I dont think they care, so why should we?
Once EA sorts ball physics and physicality out, i cant see myself thinking too much which game to buy in the future.
Had a chat the other day with an old mate. We used to meet up in his house with few others and play Pes tournaments.
Somehow we brought this memory back in a chat. And he says to me
- remember how we thought "jesus, if football games are like this now, imagine what it will be like in 10-20 years"... they didnt change much, did they?..
He's right. I used to play ISS and Pes with my dad and I thought that the difference he is seeing, from the beginning of computers and first games he played - I will have same shock playing with my child one day.. i was about 11 then.. my daughter is 5 now. So in theory they have 6 years to blow me away..
So... two 3 year cycles? Yeah, right..
Once EA sorts ball physics and physicality out, i cant see myself thinking too much which game to buy in the future.
Had a chat the other day with an old mate. We used to meet up in his house with few others and play Pes tournaments.
Somehow we brought this memory back in a chat. And he says to me
- remember how we thought "jesus, if football games are like this now, imagine what it will be like in 10-20 years"... they didnt change much, did they?..
He's right. I used to play ISS and Pes with my dad and I thought that the difference he is seeing, from the beginning of computers and first games he played - I will have same shock playing with my child one day.. i was about 11 then.. my daughter is 5 now. So in theory they have 6 years to blow me away..
So... two 3 year cycles? Yeah, right..
Ameppe
International
- 23 December 2007
- SSC Napoli
Will that ever happen though. I feel like i am waiting ages but nothing really improved about those elements in Fifa.
- Staff
- #9,671
I know, right? But they have to eventually. Id say there is much bigger chance in that, than Konami going back to glory days of Pes. This company is too limited and too arrogant to deliver what we want.
- Thread starter
- #9,672
We all know how they'd listen. Hit their pockets hard. That's how. Don't buy their games and make a big deal of it on Twitter. Just like the other gaming companies who thought taking advantage of their gullible fans was going to be an easy ride. Pockets hurt, and they "apologized".Loyal "oldschool" fans dont have much patience and faith left and Konami doesnt have much time. I dont think they care, so why should we?
Once EA sorts ball physics and physicality out, i cant see myself thinking too much which game to buy in the future.
Had a chat the other day with an old mate. We used to meet up in his house with few others and play Pes tournaments.
Somehow we brought this memory back in a chat. And he says to me
- remember how we thought "jesus, if football games are like this now, imagine what it will be like in 10-20 years"... they didnt change much, did they?..
He's right. I used to play ISS and Pes with my dad and I thought that the difference he is seeing, from the beginning of computers and first games he played - I will have same shock playing with my child one day.. i was about 11 then.. my daughter is 5 now. So in theory they have 6 years to blow me away..
So... two 3 year cycles? Yeah, right..
This is our only hope. Businesses follow money. Simple as.
- Staff
- #9,673
Thats true. Unfortunately community is partially to blame here.
All the "influential" people, streamers, youtubers, kit makers - they seems to be afraid to say something. Everyone is way too political. Even people who used to be neutral and talk out loud about the issues - recently they do everything they can to defend the game.
If you push them into a corner with hard arguments and clear examples - best you can get is "i agree to a point, its not perfect but its very good and solid"..
When you have people like this, with plenty of followers and direct link to Konami people, who paint the situation like this - its very hard to get anywhere.
At some point you'll start to look like one of them idiots, who just comes in to say "pes is shit/fuck you konami/fifa is king"
At least thats how they will start seeing you.
There is way too many sheep and PC people, who wont say anything and will be lying even to themselves not to hurt anyones feelings.
All this makes things worse. Coz a lot of those guys, including Konami related, are nice people. Im ending up feeling like a dickhead for just trying to open their eyes and state the facts..
Schwarzenbeck
Premier League
This industry-segment is in dire need of disruption. Someone who dares to put everything into question, throw everything out and start from square one. If you think of it, the way both EA and Konami do football games is essentially 15-20 years old. That's when original Ronaldo, Beckham, Zidane et al were still active players, for crying out loud.
Alas, no one in sight..
Alas, no one in sight..
Ameppe
International
- 23 December 2007
- SSC Napoli
It's difficult. Unless Sony decided one day to release a football game again, like This is Football, these are going to be the only two football games.
Even Pes is barely surviving and just thanks to Myclub.
Even Pes is barely surviving and just thanks to Myclub.
Peter Withe
It must be. It is! Peter Withe!
- 10 August 2018
Schwarzenbeck
Premier League
I am thinking more: small team of enthusiasts, perhaps ex-EA/Konami. Publishing via something like Github rather than Steam/Origin. Their goal doesn’t have to be making shitloads of money or compete with EA. Try first to create a convincing and authentic gameplay experience with generic teams/AI, maybe with an entirely new control scheme. This, when well done, would turn some heads, not necessarily with the online crowd but with enough “hardcore” in order to eventually grow it to a community-lead platform.
Edit: of course, I am talking PC version here, but maybe that distinction will become obsolete with cloud gaming sooner or later anyway
jameslv1986
League 2
- 4 November 2009
Thats sounds great and I'm a PS4 man, however I would support anyone trying to do something different and actually replicate a game of football, the technical side, the emotion and excitement side. Fifa and PES are both dull and sterile.
- Thread starter
- #9,679
Once that invitation and sweet talking come in, you feel you're in the circle receiving special treatment, and never want that to go away. Here is when you lose sight and change your tone. It happens to a lot of them, and it's a problem.
The premise of myclub is good but its poorly implemented.
Takes frickin ages to work out its flawed if you're only starting out in PES.
Hopefully folks get the message faster/sooner this year without the likes of curdstar and danielrh spreading their fake news.
rojofa
Premier League
- 15 September 2017
It's just your typical microtransaction/lootbox mode that most sports games cram in these days.
These modes are not built to deliver a "football" experience, they are designed to manipulate people into parting with their money through psychological tricks in the same way as a slot machine. They likely spent way more time, money and effort putting together their flashy 20-second "pack opening" sequence than they invested in all offline modes put together.
It's badly implemented (from Konami's perspective) in that they give everybody an insane super-team by just grinding for a while rather than needing to spend hundreds/thousands of £££ like FUT. The premise overall is just as toxic, but their incompetence meant they didn't even pace the progression properly for maximum profit.
The only positive aspect is the way you can build your own team, but they already had a superior online mode for this in Master League Online in PES 2011... They removed everything good about that and shoehorned in lootboxes and microtransactions because it's easy money.
They have no intention or incentive to produce a proper online team management mode (or even invest in any offline modes) as long as this shit goes unregulated and people keep willingly playing and throwing money at it.
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Ameppe
International
- 23 December 2007
- SSC Napoli
Actually, as i already mentioned, Pes streamers are trashing Pes every single time i try to watch them, especially because of the insane script the game has. Also, several editers already announced they are not going to support Pes anymore with their kits because Konami showed they don't care about offline modes.
This year, almost everyone is heavily criticizing Pes, starting from reviewers that were always too soft towards Pes.
This year, almost everyone is heavily criticizing Pes, starting from reviewers that were always too soft towards Pes.
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rockstrongo
Retired Footballer
Said it a billion times!
If racing/basketball/hockey can have a proper career mode and very near real life sport experience,then why not football games?
Especially Pes.
And is it a demand for? of course it is.
Like i said racing/basketball/hockey has it.
And those games also has a arcade element to it.
So having both should not be a problem
If racing/basketball/hockey can have a proper career mode and very near real life sport experience,then why not football games?
Especially Pes.
And is it a demand for? of course it is.
Like i said racing/basketball/hockey has it.
And those games also has a arcade element to it.
So having both should not be a problem
- Staff
- #9,684
Yeah, this is a biggie for me. I'm a regular reader of Eurogamer and was furious at the attitude they had in their PES 2019 preview (their guy started off by talking about the PES games he played at university and never really moved on from that, it read a bit like "PES is the best and always will be, it just is").
That attitude has been toxic to PES for-fucking-ever and it exists on every big review site (and even in some cliques of the community). No matter what happens, the reviews always start off talking about how great it was before and finish off by saying that old game is still in there somewhere, so 9/10. It is no wonder the game never changes.
But after that preview, the actual review came along and I was stunned. I mean, they start out praising the game - saying the ball physics are brilliant (which they are, we're still talking about that today), and that the other game is a pinball machine in comparison (which, I have to say, makes me laugh out loud given how ping-pongy PES is).
But "patience on the pitch, a shambles off it" was the headline, and they trash the game, really. I don't remember that happening before. I remember "not much has changed but it doesn't need to" and similar kinds of comments. Not this.
The game has no major financial investment and will never change, IMO, because they make enough money from it as-is. But maybe if enough unwarranted hype is killed off by places like Eurogamer, it will have an impact. Whether that's just on sales, or whether it makes Konami take notice before then.
- Staff
- #9,685
This is the PES2019 Xbox/PS4 thread..not the PC thread...smoke patch thread is here..ask in there.hey guys, so i have a question , i have the smokepatch, everything is perfect. But napoli isn't in the champions league , anyway to fix this? thanks
- Staff
- #9,686
@Ameppe , @Chris Davies
As much as I've seen a bit of criticism and kit makers/streamers turning their back on them - its too little too late.
Reviews and opinions like these were adequate in previous versions, where we had some gameplay flaws and very shallow ML, but overall it was still enjoyable experience.
You dont wait until all your wheels fall of and your car is on fire to say - "I think it needs a bit of work done..."
We need drastic changes and brave people who will say it out loud and without sugar coating. Unfortunately there is very few like that out there.
Apart from this negative, evil Evo-Web, full of god damn elitists!
As much as I've seen a bit of criticism and kit makers/streamers turning their back on them - its too little too late.
Reviews and opinions like these were adequate in previous versions, where we had some gameplay flaws and very shallow ML, but overall it was still enjoyable experience.
You dont wait until all your wheels fall of and your car is on fire to say - "I think it needs a bit of work done..."
We need drastic changes and brave people who will say it out loud and without sugar coating. Unfortunately there is very few like that out there.
Apart from this negative, evil Evo-Web, full of god damn elitists!
Wholly agree.
MyClub is a great idea if done right i.e.
- No acquisition of players from agents - just scouts
- One compulsory set of assist settings (my personal prefence would be full manual for all...if you're not good enough at those controls, then practice outside of MyClub)
- Proper stat based gameplay interactions (no script)
- Punishment for laggers/cheats
- Proper ranking system with points for losses and wins making more sense
When MyClub started I was hopeful.
It needs fresh management and a complete reset. If not, consumers need to be warned of its flaws - pes is NOT an esport as it stands.
Schwarzenbeck
Premier League
I always hated Eurogamer’s and pretty much everyone else’s official review of PES. Like I said earlier, they always leave me with the impression that the reviewer bases their opinion on three exhibition matches when everyone knows that it takes weeks if not months to evaluate whether you have a winner or a turd.
And don't get me started on the other thing you hint at, the "PES is always better because EA is evil and only pimply boys play FIFA" attitude. It's still around, on youtube on reddit, even here sometimes. But we need to throw this overcome thinking out, get rid of our nostalgia and look at this game with open and clear eyes and criticize it, where it needs to be criticized – from the first day on.
Of course, we will all fall into the same trap again when 20 comes around and someone will post "The King is back!" within 2 hours after the release only to find out two weeks later, that he actually isn't. He is still dead.
- Thread starter
- #9,689
rojofa
Premier League
- 15 September 2017
For me the mode is still a shit idea that list is useless unless you add one more thing to it;
- No coins/microtransactions to help acquire players (directly or indirectly).
Completely unrealistic to expect that with the way football games are going, but to me it's an absolute disgrace that we have allowed them to be able to get away with making this normal.
Let people pay for cosmetics like stadiums/kits/boots/balls if they want, but any pay-to-win elements should never be accepted.