orangebard
League 1
- 9 August 2004
Give the same crazy builders brand new materials and you'll always end up with a slightly wonky house!
PES 2018 PlayStation & Xbox Discussion Thread
- Thread starter ThomasGOAL
- Start date
Give the same crazy builders brand new materials and you'll always end up with a slightly wonky house!
- Staff
- #11,342
What is the Master League's "team spirit" if not a script?
With a terrible TS score, you won't be able to string two passes together. With a max score, you'll never lose, even on Superstar.
Yet I like the idea - I like that the game forces you to consider big changes to tactics, big signings who don't fit your system, etc...
But is the way that the TS punishes you - making opposition players rush forward to intercept passes (as opposed to your passes ever being off-target, because they just never are, on anything except manual passing) - the right way to do it?
With a terrible TS score, you won't be able to string two passes together. With a max score, you'll never lose, even on Superstar.
Yet I like the idea - I like that the game forces you to consider big changes to tactics, big signings who don't fit your system, etc...
But is the way that the TS punishes you - making opposition players rush forward to intercept passes (as opposed to your passes ever being off-target, because they just never are, on anything except manual passing) - the right way to do it?
Dennis_87
Physics n' Animations Fan
- 27 September 2017
But they said that 18 was the first of a new 3 year cyrcle so that means that 20 will be the third and the last of that.
So if we expect a new engine and things from scratch we will probably have to wait for 21 that maybe will come along with the next gen of gaming and consoles like ps5 etc.
But let's give a chance to 19 first.I'm pretty sure it will be better than 18.How much better we will have to see.
And it also always depends on what alternatives you have to play.If Fifa stays the same dark lighted small ball glitch fest again then i know i'm gonna be pretty good with Pes.
chiefrocka4real
Champions League
Good point.
Actually I see that postpatch.
The goals I conceded have been comprehensable. I saw my mistakes and it felt good to concede that goals.
Plus, the cpu really scored a nice one.
Prepatch though, there have been goals from the AI were I absolutely had no chance to block any pass or tackle any player as my players totally seemed to get rid of any power.
Hard to describe but I felt cheated.
Scripting probably needs to be there for the balance. But it has to be well implement and not so extreme and obvious.
That´s why I still think that there is something with the latest patch.
I´ll keep on playing more and if I have that bullshit games again, I´m gonna revise my statement.
Dennis_87
Physics n' Animations Fan
- 27 September 2017
I think that maybe the case is that when you have a max score TS then it plays like an Exhibition match.
It's not that you'll never lose,because you can still lose an Exhibition match,but it's more that it comes without all the extra bullshit that a low TS brings.
TS is a good idea for sure but they have to implement it in a more correct and well balanced way.
If they can't do it then it would be better to abandon it and just have the ML matches being played like on Exhibition.
It's still challenging afterall on Superstar Exhibition and plays good.
After last patch i also see that the game plays better in general and especially with Nesa's gameplay patch it's more loose and free in general and gives the impression that anything could happen on the pitch without feeling restricted.
Yeah the high % passing bullshit even with medium teams on higher difficulties is still there,but it's something we have to live with at least for now since it's unfortunatelly there in both games.I hope they can improve it.
I know that many disagree and have their prefferences but for me it's still the best Pes in general that i have played.
Well to be fair it has been over a decade that i haven't played the old Pes classics so i don't remember well how they play,but since for me the graphics,fluidity,animations and all the current gen elements in general plays a big role for the overall experience,i don't think that playing the retro ones would change my mind.
Matt10
International
- 5 February 2004
I think scripting is down to your perception of accountability, and how it relates to what you can and can't control.
For the scenarios in which you cannot control the players position, that to me is a script. If the CPU sends a ball over the top, and my centerbacks move forward each time, then the CPU scores - that to me is a blatant script.
However, if the CPU starts maintaining possession better, winning 50/50 balls more often, getting shots on target better and just overall playing better - then I can accept that the CPU has decided to ramp into their skills a bit more, and I need to combat this. Modifying formation, dropping down the attack/defense, clearing the ball as much as possible, holding the ball in the corner when it's 85+ minutes. Those are the areas of accountability to me. Those are the ones where I can lose a match and feel like I did everything in my power to see a result, but couldn't hold on.
I know that lowers the bar of realism, but the concept is better than seeing the CPU play as direct as possible, and moving my players out of position to create their chances. This works both ways as well, and it is actually the side of the sand that I tend to have issues with in this series since PES 16. This is the entire premise of my approach to sports gaming in general. Ensuring that not only the concept is intact, but more importantly the execution.
In the same way that I do not want my players moved out of position to let the CPU create chances, I also don't want the CPU to have their players moved out of position (blatantly) to create my chances. This happens in every single sequence of PES 2018. Show me a replay, and I will show you a CPU moving out of position to create your chance. Logically, I can defend if the statement in which "that's football, defending players make mistakes," but what I have seen, and played, in PES is something in which there is no logical reasoning to why players move out of position at times. Be it a central defender turning their back on the ball carrier to follow an off-the-ball runner deep into their box, or an outside back who runs the length of the pitch in the opposite direction, giving up miles of space and lastly the center backs who give up all hope as soon as the DMF is breached, thus sprinting to their imaginary defensive line before engaging.
The above happens too often, and too often it feels like charity. Charity for me and charity for the CPU. We talk about scripting for just the topic, but if you dig right into it, it's a product of illogical movements of players off the ball - creating the effect of chances in the match.
The source of scripting is there, but the problem is you have to find out what you are solving for. If scripting is what you are solving for, then you have to determine why scripting needs to be removed in the first place. If the only way to ensure that games don't always end in 1-0 and 0-0, what other variables can you possibly look into?
Forcing illogical positioning seems to be the main way that PES does it, and FIFA's way is ramping up the amount of runs off the ball to get players dragged out of position; the difference is FIFA is more subtle because it releases the players being followed earlier than PES. Every blade of grass that is covered matters in this sport, the position of players off the ball can make or break the experience if it's not executed with logic as a primary focus.
That is why I feel that scripting is so successfully implemented, and unfortunately there may not be a way around that for the nature of how these modern games are going towards in the Esports push.
For the scenarios in which you cannot control the players position, that to me is a script. If the CPU sends a ball over the top, and my centerbacks move forward each time, then the CPU scores - that to me is a blatant script.
However, if the CPU starts maintaining possession better, winning 50/50 balls more often, getting shots on target better and just overall playing better - then I can accept that the CPU has decided to ramp into their skills a bit more, and I need to combat this. Modifying formation, dropping down the attack/defense, clearing the ball as much as possible, holding the ball in the corner when it's 85+ minutes. Those are the areas of accountability to me. Those are the ones where I can lose a match and feel like I did everything in my power to see a result, but couldn't hold on.
I know that lowers the bar of realism, but the concept is better than seeing the CPU play as direct as possible, and moving my players out of position to create their chances. This works both ways as well, and it is actually the side of the sand that I tend to have issues with in this series since PES 16. This is the entire premise of my approach to sports gaming in general. Ensuring that not only the concept is intact, but more importantly the execution.
In the same way that I do not want my players moved out of position to let the CPU create chances, I also don't want the CPU to have their players moved out of position (blatantly) to create my chances. This happens in every single sequence of PES 2018. Show me a replay, and I will show you a CPU moving out of position to create your chance. Logically, I can defend if the statement in which "that's football, defending players make mistakes," but what I have seen, and played, in PES is something in which there is no logical reasoning to why players move out of position at times. Be it a central defender turning their back on the ball carrier to follow an off-the-ball runner deep into their box, or an outside back who runs the length of the pitch in the opposite direction, giving up miles of space and lastly the center backs who give up all hope as soon as the DMF is breached, thus sprinting to their imaginary defensive line before engaging.
The above happens too often, and too often it feels like charity. Charity for me and charity for the CPU. We talk about scripting for just the topic, but if you dig right into it, it's a product of illogical movements of players off the ball - creating the effect of chances in the match.
The source of scripting is there, but the problem is you have to find out what you are solving for. If scripting is what you are solving for, then you have to determine why scripting needs to be removed in the first place. If the only way to ensure that games don't always end in 1-0 and 0-0, what other variables can you possibly look into?
Forcing illogical positioning seems to be the main way that PES does it, and FIFA's way is ramping up the amount of runs off the ball to get players dragged out of position; the difference is FIFA is more subtle because it releases the players being followed earlier than PES. Every blade of grass that is covered matters in this sport, the position of players off the ball can make or break the experience if it's not executed with logic as a primary focus.
That is why I feel that scripting is so successfully implemented, and unfortunately there may not be a way around that for the nature of how these modern games are going towards in the Esports push.
Danny Henry
The King is dead.
- 16 September 2013
I see the scripts in other way. To me its notorious that my players became slower. Slow to turn, slow to dribble, slow to react to loose balls.
Weaker, weaker to shield the ball, to hold defenders off.
My players lost pass accurancy and strenght. No matter the pitch condition or the most I hold pass button. The pass clearly is slower.
My players dont make incisive runs no matter the tactic is set.
Shot accurancy is heavely decreased too.
And, CPU is too clinical! They score on any oportunity! Its very unfair!
Honestly I dont see so much bad positioning after this latest patch.
Saying this, the only way I can beat CPU on scripted matches is with short passes and shooting from very very close rage. Then, holding the ball like a cheater on the defensive field.
But anyway, dont no why but after the rage pass, I play this shit again, Just like PES 5 lol. So, I cant say that I dont like this game.
Weaker, weaker to shield the ball, to hold defenders off.
My players lost pass accurancy and strenght. No matter the pitch condition or the most I hold pass button. The pass clearly is slower.
My players dont make incisive runs no matter the tactic is set.
Shot accurancy is heavely decreased too.
And, CPU is too clinical! They score on any oportunity! Its very unfair!
Honestly I dont see so much bad positioning after this latest patch.
Saying this, the only way I can beat CPU on scripted matches is with short passes and shooting from very very close rage. Then, holding the ball like a cheater on the defensive field.
But anyway, dont no why but after the rage pass, I play this shit again, Just like PES 5 lol. So, I cant say that I dont like this game.
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janguv
Premier League
- 2 November 2016
Some of this discussion about scripting is good. I find it's helpful to clarify the different things people mean when they mention scripting. There's at least:
- offline (normally ML): Oppo/Own AI becomes unusually good/crap
- online: Oppo/Own AI becomes unusually good/crap
- game features: team spirit, player emotions, *momentum (*=maybe...)
...and within those categories, people are often referring to different elements, and don't see face-to-face on what counts as scripting even within one category.
This is why I referred to it in that other thread as largely a red herring. Like @Chris Davies, I agree that TS could be classified as scripting; I also don't think in itself it's a bad thing. I think it's part of what AI *is*. Sure, we can have debates over whether that's a good mechanism or implementation of an idea. But it can be both scripting and good at the same time.
People often fail to acknowledge the player emotions system. That's the system whereby players gain or lose form according to what happens on the pitch—i.e., if conceding, there's a drop in performance, etc. That's something Konami even put in the promo and manual materials. But when scripting is spoken of in accusatorial, whispering tones, I feel this fact has just been lost. Yes, sometimes your team will turn to bollocks when you concede a couple. That's not secret engineering; it's a feature. A good one? I'm unsure, but let's acknowledge what it is, first and foremost.
The online/offline split makes a huge difference in how the debate should be approached. For one thing, it's a lot easier to be clear about gameplay/AI shifts when you're playing offline, because you have an opponent which is supposedly mechanical/rule-based (unlike online players) and you have no network issues to contend with. Too often, the "argh the scripting lost me the game!" vibe you get from online players fails to acknowledge just how crap the netcode is, and how strange glitches, slow players, skipping framerates are par for the course online.
As for @Matt10's criterion of scripting—that's a niche and interesting one. I think it's arguably a correct diagnosis of the underlying mechanics behind what people (in a more conspiratorial tone) want to scream at and call "scripting!". I detect the view that it's a mess of code and different systems that are piled together; this makes sense to me, and it would explain why there's always such a rift between those representing developers and the players who complain.
- offline (normally ML): Oppo/Own AI becomes unusually good/crap
- online: Oppo/Own AI becomes unusually good/crap
- game features: team spirit, player emotions, *momentum (*=maybe...)
...and within those categories, people are often referring to different elements, and don't see face-to-face on what counts as scripting even within one category.
This is why I referred to it in that other thread as largely a red herring. Like @Chris Davies, I agree that TS could be classified as scripting; I also don't think in itself it's a bad thing. I think it's part of what AI *is*. Sure, we can have debates over whether that's a good mechanism or implementation of an idea. But it can be both scripting and good at the same time.
People often fail to acknowledge the player emotions system. That's the system whereby players gain or lose form according to what happens on the pitch—i.e., if conceding, there's a drop in performance, etc. That's something Konami even put in the promo and manual materials. But when scripting is spoken of in accusatorial, whispering tones, I feel this fact has just been lost. Yes, sometimes your team will turn to bollocks when you concede a couple. That's not secret engineering; it's a feature. A good one? I'm unsure, but let's acknowledge what it is, first and foremost.
The online/offline split makes a huge difference in how the debate should be approached. For one thing, it's a lot easier to be clear about gameplay/AI shifts when you're playing offline, because you have an opponent which is supposedly mechanical/rule-based (unlike online players) and you have no network issues to contend with. Too often, the "argh the scripting lost me the game!" vibe you get from online players fails to acknowledge just how crap the netcode is, and how strange glitches, slow players, skipping framerates are par for the course online.
As for @Matt10's criterion of scripting—that's a niche and interesting one. I think it's arguably a correct diagnosis of the underlying mechanics behind what people (in a more conspiratorial tone) want to scream at and call "scripting!". I detect the view that it's a mess of code and different systems that are piled together; this makes sense to me, and it would explain why there's always such a rift between those representing developers and the players who complain.
manmachine
Premier League
- 22 June 2008
You know, I was convinced myself with the e-sport excuse until I randomly discovered that even some pros have issues with nerfing/removing the defensive AI. Even they can't switch fast enough between 11 players and constantly correct their positions to manually defend, lol. And i'm in no way following the e-sport scene, so I could be wrong, but still I think it's interesting.
The thing is, the profits come from fut/myclub kids who are not pros, pros do want a skill based game with risk & reward but they are still a tiny minority. So EA & Konami had a real good look at the gameplay, saw that you can close your eyes, tap the pass button blindly 2-3 times and find your self in your opponents final third in 2 seconds. Then you can spam stupid skill moves and still no one can get near you. And then they thought "you know what, this is too easy, we need to inject more skill into the game to reward good players. Getting rid of the defensive AI it is then, right?". I don't know... The "skill" explanation does have some logic behind it, but I'm not so sure anymore. Sounds like they just "balanced" it so that goals could happen for the 90% of people who buy packs and still don't know how the game is played and how to score. Time will tell though.
Danny Henry
The King is dead.
- 16 September 2013
Check it out.
Bonano
League 1
- 2 July 2017
Just for the fun of it, show me where players were moved out of position to create my chance:
The only gift I see here is the keeper not coming out of his goal fast enough, and if he did he might not have saved it anyway.
This incidentally is probably also the best goal I scored on 2018, at least as far as the final pass (manual) goes.
This by the way is not to say that I don't agree with what you said about scripting. In fact that very game against Nigeria (and many frustrating rematches) was very scripted with Nigerian players scoring a lot of ridiculous goals!
Matt10
International
- 5 February 2004
The center midfielder at the very start of the the video goes forward towards the ball as if he is going to pick it up for a throw in. He's literally jogging to a player, with no intent to block a passing lane or to put pressure. Even when that player with the ball passes it off, the defending midfielder is still in jogging animation.
Then you have the center back (in the D) turning their back on their own defensive line for no reason. Results in them being completely disoriented and as soon as they turn back the ball is already past them. He has no reason to face his chest outside as the player with the ball is 10 yards away. He jogs, pedals back, then abruptly stops. By then, the ball is already past him.
The center midfielder who eventually slides at the end is also at fault. He marks well originally, then he gets so close to the runner, stops abruptly even though the runner hasn't stopped at all, and before he has time to start his animation again, the runner scores the goal, and he desperately slide tackles from a yard away at nothing.
As I said, this is a game that is about inches. Players stopping jogging to mimic pressure, turning their backs and stopping abruptly, are all examples of how less rewarding and manufactured the game is. It doesn't follow logic of just human common sense. Noone just stops abruptly like that.
It's not bad defense, and it doesn't classify as the sport not being perfect, but it has everything to do with programming illogically. PES 18 is not subtle in any regard. Powerful shots, powerful dribbling, super agile players, amazing superman goalkeepers, every goal has a slow-mo highlight, nifty backheels. PES is very much in your face this year. That's what I am sick of. It takes the most amazing, rare, things in the sport - and makes them the absolute norm.
That's why I said it's part of an Esports culture of needing to get from Point A to Point B as fast as possible - and in any way possible. I completely understand why it is this way, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.
Dennis_87
Physics n' Animations Fan
- 27 September 2017
You're really overanalyzing all this shit...
In your video about the teaser you spent 5 minutes talking about whether Beckham maybe 100% looks on the ball when he's kicking it or maybe not...
You're seeking for perfection and you'll never find it.
It's no secret that Pes has position issues etc. but saying that EVERY replay you'll see you'll find something wrong with it it's just pure exaggeration.
In the replay above it's a good goal based on a great manual pass that splits the defence in two and there are not positional issues with it.It's a goal that i could see in real life and seems pretty realistic.And yet you started finding problems with it.
So what?In the retro Pes that you play you're saying that you don't see these issues and it's all good?
I'm pretty sure that with your kind of judgement you will find issues in every replay there also and even in real life football replays you'll also find them there.
Errors and misjudges are a big part of football and every reaction cannot be perfect otherwise every match would end 0-0.And there are also the perfect plays that when they occur it just leads to a goal and the defending team can't do anything about it even when they didn't do something wrong.It's not always someone's fault when they concede.
Yeah it looks a bit weird sometimes how players suddenly stop and run and stuff and it can be improved furthermore but there's no video game in gaming history where every little move and every little decision looks 100% logical and natural.It's not supposed to be some million dollar NASA real life simulator or some shit.It's just a game.
The hardware we have now is far from perfect.Maybe in the future gens of gaming we'll see some really revolutionary stuff but surelly not now.
Also don't forget that they try to bring the events of a real 90 min football match in a 10 min match that most people play.So it's normal that the 'magic moments' you will see more rarely in 90 min,like every 15 min for example,you will have to see them every 2 min in a 10min match to have the correct analogy.That's a big reason why it feels that they're much more common in a Pes match.
And it really has to do also with what speed you play and what time.I play -1 speed 20 min match and i don't really feel that the game is rushed or anything or that i see crazy highlight moments all the time.It flows pretty naturally.
Also i see some people saying that the game is dull and not exciting,so how come such a game has suddenly all these magic moments?Either it's dull and soulless or either it's exciting and full of magic moments.It can't be both.
So decide people.
Anyway many times i agree with your points but i feel that you're overanalyzing every little move and decision and being a hardcore perfectionist.It's all good and we must surely look out for the details but also not forget that it's just a video game and it will never be perfect in every little move and every little decision.
I'm reading this and I'm not sure what y'all expect from AI.
I've been playing 10v10, with 10 human brains on each side, and this kinda happens. CM getting confused who he should be tracking, coz the DM initially just ran forward and left a hole in front of defense. At game clock 58:30, the CM is now thinking "wtf man, you left me with 3 lanes to track and I'm not sure which to follow anymore. Lets hope they mess up their execution on the pass then...I can only do so much."
And that happens to me a lot, as that's actually my position on my team.
Just a poor choice by someone then somehow a lot ends up on my plate and it just tilts all of us in defense. Playing in 10v10 there's no robotic perfection. Luckily, manual players don't have perfection in their passes either, so it can be lethal, but not every time. For us, it kinda equals out.
Vs COM, I'm not sure what happens in the tracking. I can only say we are on our mics talking about who to track and when to pass it off to the next guy, and it is still quite hectic. But it's much easier to intercept a manual pass mid-path so it's not always ending in a chance created for the opposition. Plus the pass itself can go wrong, easier.
I don't really know how COM behaves. If you ask me tho, the DM rushing out was the moment the weakness in defense was created.
It reminded me the goal Croatia conceded this week against Brazil:
https://streamja.com/lWQz
Kovacic at fault for rushing out "pressing" Willian, even though this press was completely singular (Willian had 3-4 options in a 360 degree angle, no point in enforcing there). Instead, he thinned out the width in his team's DM zone and it was over once the pass was played. The run probably won't even happen if Kovacic stayed with the other DM (Modric?).
Anyway, I think this feels a lot worse when seeing it happen in 1v1 or I guess v COM. Coz it happens in the background and you can't fix it. At least in 11v11 we are given a chance to control our destinies. If we fail, it's on us. I really don't feel like events on the field in 1v1, or v COM, will ever get on the same level of organic development in buildup or defensive cover. Having played with fellow humans on the field we kinda see all kinds of intelligence missing, that I don't think AI will ever get close to emulating how humans would make decisions/take in live feedback in relationship to the other 19 players on the field, where the ball is situated, what the opponent or team mate body animation is telegraphing....etc. Been thinking about this, I don't think I'll ever go back to taking 1v1 seriously anymore.
I've been playing 10v10, with 10 human brains on each side, and this kinda happens. CM getting confused who he should be tracking, coz the DM initially just ran forward and left a hole in front of defense. At game clock 58:30, the CM is now thinking "wtf man, you left me with 3 lanes to track and I'm not sure which to follow anymore. Lets hope they mess up their execution on the pass then...I can only do so much."
And that happens to me a lot, as that's actually my position on my team.
Just a poor choice by someone then somehow a lot ends up on my plate and it just tilts all of us in defense. Playing in 10v10 there's no robotic perfection. Luckily, manual players don't have perfection in their passes either, so it can be lethal, but not every time. For us, it kinda equals out.
Vs COM, I'm not sure what happens in the tracking. I can only say we are on our mics talking about who to track and when to pass it off to the next guy, and it is still quite hectic. But it's much easier to intercept a manual pass mid-path so it's not always ending in a chance created for the opposition. Plus the pass itself can go wrong, easier.
I don't really know how COM behaves. If you ask me tho, the DM rushing out was the moment the weakness in defense was created.
It reminded me the goal Croatia conceded this week against Brazil:
https://streamja.com/lWQz
Kovacic at fault for rushing out "pressing" Willian, even though this press was completely singular (Willian had 3-4 options in a 360 degree angle, no point in enforcing there). Instead, he thinned out the width in his team's DM zone and it was over once the pass was played. The run probably won't even happen if Kovacic stayed with the other DM (Modric?).
Anyway, I think this feels a lot worse when seeing it happen in 1v1 or I guess v COM. Coz it happens in the background and you can't fix it. At least in 11v11 we are given a chance to control our destinies. If we fail, it's on us. I really don't feel like events on the field in 1v1, or v COM, will ever get on the same level of organic development in buildup or defensive cover. Having played with fellow humans on the field we kinda see all kinds of intelligence missing, that I don't think AI will ever get close to emulating how humans would make decisions/take in live feedback in relationship to the other 19 players on the field, where the ball is situated, what the opponent or team mate body animation is telegraphing....etc. Been thinking about this, I don't think I'll ever go back to taking 1v1 seriously anymore.
slamsoze
International
- 28 September 2010
I posted this goal in last years (2018 wish-list discussion) in my my country's pes forum (wehellas) and i had written that thats a type of goal i would like to see being reproduced (simulated) by a PES game. Real did almost everything correct, no mispossitions or gaps at all and still goal happened. That's why football is the most popular sport.
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Dennis_87
Physics n' Animations Fan
- 27 September 2017
Not so sure that Matt would agree that Real did everything correct.
He would probably say that Carvajal didn't close Alex Sandro correctly and that they left too much space and time for Mandzukic to execute.
No offense,just joking around.
Bonano
League 1
- 2 July 2017
Fair points @matt, but I think you are overstating it a bit.
The DM who is jogging forward is, IMO, making a mistake within the realm of realism; he pushes up and rather slowly realize that the opponent makes a run behind so he gets caught out. However, my guy making the run (Biglia) is himself a DM, so maybe the Nigerian is surprised that he makes a deep run? Either way, I see it as an honest mistake that you could also see in real life.
It's true though, that their left CB makes some strange movements taking steps backwards and outwards. This doesn't make any sense, but is maybe to do with Lamela starting a run (that he doesnt carry on). I suspect it's about (bad) programming of AI defensive anticipation combined with the fact that two of his teammates are physically closer to Messi, so he “feels like” Messi is covered and he himself should be doing something else. To me those couple of steps he takes isn’t a big deal in comparison to the game’s overall positional issues, but I can see how you (or anybody else) would be annoyed about it. So I’ll give you that one
The CM, I don't know… He stops his run just before Messi receives the ball, maybe to anticipate what happens next? He probably should have body checked Biglia to make a foul, but I don't think the game has that sort of action which would be nice though if it did. Would be very realistic and also create more (tactical) fouls in the game. Oh and yeah that CMs final sliding tackle makes zero sense
However I don't understand why you are talking about CBs in plural as I don't see anything wrong with the behavior of the right CB...
Again, besides those couple of steps from the left CB, there must also be some half bad defensive decisions on the AIs part for there to be any scoring opportunities in the game. That match was played on professional level just for info (not saying similar stuff wouldn't happen on higher difficulties).
So again, I’ll give you that the left CB takes some weird steps that you could argue he is dragged out of position, but the rest of the sequence I think is a pretty decent and realistic expression of what could happen in any real life defensive situation.
Cheers
The DM who is jogging forward is, IMO, making a mistake within the realm of realism; he pushes up and rather slowly realize that the opponent makes a run behind so he gets caught out. However, my guy making the run (Biglia) is himself a DM, so maybe the Nigerian is surprised that he makes a deep run? Either way, I see it as an honest mistake that you could also see in real life.
It's true though, that their left CB makes some strange movements taking steps backwards and outwards. This doesn't make any sense, but is maybe to do with Lamela starting a run (that he doesnt carry on). I suspect it's about (bad) programming of AI defensive anticipation combined with the fact that two of his teammates are physically closer to Messi, so he “feels like” Messi is covered and he himself should be doing something else. To me those couple of steps he takes isn’t a big deal in comparison to the game’s overall positional issues, but I can see how you (or anybody else) would be annoyed about it. So I’ll give you that one
The CM, I don't know… He stops his run just before Messi receives the ball, maybe to anticipate what happens next? He probably should have body checked Biglia to make a foul, but I don't think the game has that sort of action which would be nice though if it did. Would be very realistic and also create more (tactical) fouls in the game. Oh and yeah that CMs final sliding tackle makes zero sense
However I don't understand why you are talking about CBs in plural as I don't see anything wrong with the behavior of the right CB...
Again, besides those couple of steps from the left CB, there must also be some half bad defensive decisions on the AIs part for there to be any scoring opportunities in the game. That match was played on professional level just for info (not saying similar stuff wouldn't happen on higher difficulties).
So again, I’ll give you that the left CB takes some weird steps that you could argue he is dragged out of position, but the rest of the sequence I think is a pretty decent and realistic expression of what could happen in any real life defensive situation.
Cheers
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LockedGroove
Non-League
- 9 June 2018
Despite the often exaggerated momentum shifts(scripting)in most modes outside of exhibition and on the higher difficulties.Im still enjoying this one..
When It’s good it’s great and for me there’s a real alchemy in the AI.No one game ever feeling the same in the better moments.And a overriding feeling the game has freed itself from its binery roots and come gloriously to life.
While the cpu AI may be a little to accurate or lacking any real error.Ive never felt unable to contain or have any goals I’ve conceded fallen to much outside of the context of what would happen in a real world scenario.I certainly don’t buy into the notion the game deliberately takes players out of position to make goals.More blending spikes in momentum to create more off the ball movements,heaviness in your player response while cpu player and reaction speed is increased.There are events or moments where the algorithms seem to get a little muddled up but I’ve noticed these less since the last patch.Defenders,defensive midfielders certainly see the danger and react consistently enough to the play(most of the time).
If Konami can bolster the shooting animation set,add in a visible fatigue and stamina system along with a raft of refinement and variation to passing and shooting I will be more then happy.Consistent refs and solid foul system is a given.
No revamp or reinvention needed here...Imo huge potential this year.
When It’s good it’s great and for me there’s a real alchemy in the AI.No one game ever feeling the same in the better moments.And a overriding feeling the game has freed itself from its binery roots and come gloriously to life.
While the cpu AI may be a little to accurate or lacking any real error.Ive never felt unable to contain or have any goals I’ve conceded fallen to much outside of the context of what would happen in a real world scenario.I certainly don’t buy into the notion the game deliberately takes players out of position to make goals.More blending spikes in momentum to create more off the ball movements,heaviness in your player response while cpu player and reaction speed is increased.There are events or moments where the algorithms seem to get a little muddled up but I’ve noticed these less since the last patch.Defenders,defensive midfielders certainly see the danger and react consistently enough to the play(most of the time).
If Konami can bolster the shooting animation set,add in a visible fatigue and stamina system along with a raft of refinement and variation to passing and shooting I will be more then happy.Consistent refs and solid foul system is a given.
No revamp or reinvention needed here...Imo huge potential this year.
Matt10
International
- 5 February 2004
He asked for my opinion, and I gave it. I look at things like a coach would. If you were a coach, and your players stopped abruptly, like a statue, or a host from Westworld (freeze all motor functions) wouldn't you wonder some things as well?
I am sorry it bothers you that I analyze these things. That's what I will do, I will see the things that you may have not seen. They are exploits and they are shortcomings in programming. That's all there is.
The older PES I play didn't have positioning right, I never said they did. It's their reaction that made them exemplary. PES 18 has two choices, either get the positioning on point or get the reactions on point. They choose neither. In older PES they picked one, or the other. The positioning hasn't been right since PES 2015, and PES 3 before that. The reactions have definitely been better.
There really isn't any need to be bothered because I choose to overanlyze, as you say. That's the beauty of a community. You get those who are more extreme and those who are not. That's how balance is found, can't you see? There would be no middle ground if there wasn't those who expected better and more realism involved, just like there would be no middle ground if there wasn't those who did not care about these things - just as long as they could accomplish what they wanted.
The premise of my original post was in relation to scripting and how it relates to on the field action. It is a product of a chain reaction of positioning and reaction based issues that happen on the pitch in PES 2018. I said show me a replay, and I'll show you something that isn't right.
Your comment about errors and misjudgment in football is the exact argument I always expect. It's the common phrase of "people aren't perfect" or "no game is perfect". Right, I get that. If you feel I want a perfect representation of the sport, then you've misunderstood me. I want the intent to be towards perfection, just like any human being trying to do their best would be, but knowing that their abilities/skills etc are the defining factors that hinder/help them. I want there to be a logic of understand what should happen, and attempt to make that happen. They can do this, believe me, they can. They've done this before. Why shouldn't we expect it again?
Lastly, think of it this way. If they focus on getting those elements correct 100% of the time, but the execution is only 80%, isn't that better than not trying at all? Don't you see? My push for realism is a push for the extreme, because that way if the extreme isn't met, there is a chance that it could get really close. That's how you achieve a balance.
Matt10
International
- 5 February 2004
Fair points @matt, but I think you are overstating it a bit.
The DM who is jogging forward is, IMO, making a mistake within the realm of realism; he pushes up and rather slowly realize that the opponent makes a run behind so he gets caught out. However, my guy making the run (Biglia) is himself a DM, so maybe the Nigerian is surprised that he makes a deep run? Either way, I see it as an honest mistake that you could also see in real life.
It's true though, that their left CB makes some strange movements taking steps backwards and outwards. This doesn't make any sense, but is maybe to do with Lamela starting a run (that he doesnt carry on). I suspect it's about (bad) programming of AI defensive anticipation combined with the fact that two of his teammates are physically closer to Messi, so he “feels like” Messi is covered and he himself should be doing something else. To me those couple of steps he takes isn’t a big deal in comparison to the game’s overall positional issues, but I can see how you (or anybody else) would be annoyed about it. So I’ll give you that one
The CM, I don't know… He stops his run just before Messi receives the ball, maybe to anticipate what happens next? He probably should have body checked Biglia to make a foul, but I don't think the game has that sort of action which would be nice though if it did. Would be very realistic and also create more (tactical) fouls in the game. Oh and yeah that CMs final sliding tackle makes zero sense
However I don't understand why you are talking about CBs in plural as I don't see anything wrong with the behavior of the right CB...
Again, besides those couple of steps from the left CB, there must also be some half bad defensive decisions on the AIs part for there to be any scoring opportunities in the game. That match was played on professional level just for info (not saying similar stuff wouldn't happen on higher difficulties).
So again, I’ll give you that the left CB takes some weird steps that you could argue he is dragged out of position, but the rest of the sequence I think is a pretty decent and realistic expression of what could happen in any real life defensive situation.
Cheers
Possibly, but that's the beauty of it - it was just for fun as you originally posted
. I'm a coach by nature, but I don't think it takes that mentality to see some weird things that most humans wouldn't do, especially professional athletes.
rockstrongo
Retired Footballer
8 games in on my ML,and it's no...
That's the only thing I can describe this game and ML.
No...
That's the only thing I can describe this game and ML.
No...
robbieryan
I dream of occasional fanzine mentions
Just watching soccer aid and saw how awful Usain bolt is, instantly made me think of what a jokenhis inclusion in this game is
janguv
Premier League
- 2 November 2016
It was definitely absurd; luckily he was shit with the ball.Just watching soccer aid and saw how awful Usain bolt is, instantly made me think of what a jokenhis inclusion in this game is
PES never used to be absurd: a referee on the cover of the game who didn't feature, playable penguins, ostriches, dinosaurs... fucking DINOSAURS.
chiefrocka4real
Champions League
My two cents about the last page´s discussion about positioning etc:
That´s a pretty nice goal! The way I see it:
I for the most part, keep looking at the attackers and there´s no doubt that the pass combination (specially the last Messi pass) is awesome. That goal probably would have made me bump my fist!
I see attackers trying to outflank defenders and manage it by a nice passing combination...surely something you´d see in real life.
Yeah, you can analyze that very exact like "defender A comes forward, jogs only, while defender B is a few meters out of position..." and so on and so on. If people don´t like the game because of stuff like this, fair enough.
But I wanna be able to get past defenders and I don´t care if one of them started 0,5 secs too late to move UNLESS
it´s really obvious that they don´t tackle, are way too much out of position or stand there doing nothing.
If those positioning or defending errors would be too extreme and obvious, of course I wouldn´t like that either.
But the way it is now (professional, manual passing, speed 0), I can´t simply run through the defense and score.
Defenders block my shots and also block my passes e.g. for the most part I´m okay with the defending.
Whenever that position topic is brought up, I mostly overfly those posts and that´s not because of disrespect.
It is because my approach to this is different, like I described a few lines earlier.
Completely perfect positioning without any mistake? I wouldn´t want that, as that would be frustrating in a 10 - 20 minute match which has to reproduce a 90 minutes game.
Just my two cents
LockedGroove
Non-League
- 9 June 2018
My two cents about the last page´s discussion about positioning etc:
That´s a pretty nice goal! The way I see it:
I for the most part, keep looking at the attackers and there´s no doubt that the pass combination (specially the last Messi pass) is awesome. That goal probably would have made me bump my fist!
I see attackers trying to outflank defenders and manage it by a nice passing combination...surely something you´d see in real life.
Yeah, you can analyze that very exact like "defender A comes forward, jogs only, while defender B is a few meters out of position..." and so on and so on. If people don´t like the game because of stuff like this, fair enough.
But I wanna be able to get past defenders and I don´t care if one of them started 0,5 secs too late to move UNLESS
it´s really obvious that they don´t tackle, are way too much out of position or stand there doing nothing.
If those positioning or defending errors would be too extreme and obvious, of course I wouldn´t like that either.
But the way it is now (professional, manual passing, speed 0), I can´t simply run through the defense and score.
Defenders block my shots and also block my passes e.g. for the most part I´m okay with the defending.
Whenever that position topic is brought up, I mostly overfly those posts and that´s not because of disrespect.
It is because my approach to this is different, like I described a few lines earlier.
Completely perfect positioning without any mistake? I wouldn´t want that, as that would be frustrating in a 10 - 20 minute match which has to reproduce a 90 minutes game.
Just my two cents
There’s nothing wrong with the defensive system or it’s logic as you quite really rightly say.More a case of the scripting slowing defenders reactions or ability to react on the higher difficulties.A unnecessary evil because the games solid enough for these moments to happen more organically and in the context of the situation.Its not like we don’t have the ability within the game to pull defenders or players out of position to create space and opportunity.
Personally I think the foundations are solid as is the core.
Factors like cpu AI passing accuracy and lack of error pull the experience down as does the end user having to much passing assistance which makes every pass to laser guided on even pa1.Makes the overall experience to simplified and one dimensional.
I don’t nor have I ever used anything other then pa0.I like that I’m forced to think about every pass and power.Touch is key as is body and foot position.I can’t just blindly pass in any direction and have to get the ball under control when it has more energy and zip in it.
My hope is they don’t go off in some other crazy direction this year and just work on improving every aspect of what’s in place in 18.9 months is a very small window and there’s little doubt passing assistance needs balancing as well as a huge pool of animations that need to be added to shooting and defending to make the game more dynamic.
Physics especially passing need to step up and I would love to see a big improvement in collisions and physics based outcomes.
There’s so much promise here and a little more weight to proceedings and more enthasis on good build up play and breakin teams down over quick counter attacks and end to end footie would make a big difference.
Not all bad though and I still have some real crackers with mates and against the cpu with a more manual setup.
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rockstrongo
Retired Footballer
It's weird,about to pack it in after two horrible games in the cup (and I know domestic cup games always fucks you) then I've had a string of top games .
I'm still having fun on my ML,even though TS is around 80 and it messes with you from time to time.
It's hard going back to older games since some of the things in this game is so much better,like responsiveness etc
I'm still having fun on my ML,even though TS is around 80 and it messes with you from time to time.
It's hard going back to older games since some of the things in this game is so much better,like responsiveness etc
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chiefrocka4real
Champions League
Same here...
Had an awful match (which I lost) against ManU yesterday.
But still....it didn´t feel like I was cheated like prepatch (latest one).
They used their chances very well, lost 2-3.
ManU is a good team, Lukaku had a good form...and I don´t wanna win every game for sure.
A few ugly games among many good ones is something I can live with.
In real life you also have exciting and boring games.
rockstrongo
Retired Footballer
Had a great game Vs Utd in my ML,where I got beaten 2-0,didn't felt cheated either,did felt cheated in the coppa italia Vs a Serie B team,but that happens every campaign.
I'm gonna keep this one going.
Just beat Udinese who pretty much parked the bus for 65 minutes,and I finally scored on a freekick.
Great game,they also went all out for a 1-1 goal the last 20 Min.
I can deal with the odd shit game every now and then.
As long as gameplay is what it is now,and not before,way back when I stopped playing it (backheels/chipped balls etc)
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