PES 2018 PlayStation & Xbox Discussion Thread

[PRO_TOO]

Min 8:00 Torres goal and the knees celebration

torres at 1:27 looks like using part of his shoulder to "head" the ball in... thats what i call contextual. or am i misreading the situation?! great video none the less.

look at iniestas face at 2:11 when auba is hacking him down! DETAILS!!

look at the fans at 3:10! lovely little details!

yellow cards over players head are back!?

and i saw a lot of new animations in that video. plenty of good stuff like shielding of the incoming ball with the body, some "long legs" to get to the ball... love it!

 

[Chuny]

I'm not reading a single review this time. Not one. They will all glorify it like there's no tomorrow like every year then comes the demo and it's all different. F that shit. Gameplay videos until the online beta should suffice.

HAHA, I'm doing the exact opposite.

 

[PES94]

Shooting has been a problem since they introduced the arcade fest that is PES 2016. It was fine pre PES 2015.

 

[Chris Davies]

Here's a thing, if the simulation community is so huge and needs to be listened too, why don't folk simply get more organised? And by that I mean both regards the game once it is out, as well as in the build up.

I think that happens, and it happens naturally through dialogue. If you have a critique about the game and enough people agree, a movement naturally forms with people asking questions on social media, and you end up with situations like the poll for @Matt10's positional critique (and @Lami presenting it to Adam for a response).

Where there isn't a consensus, we're just screaming into a void. Which is a good thing - without a consensus, we don't really want Konami to hear it in-case it hurts the game, do we*?

*Yes, any gameplay change could potentially harm the game. My point is, if 100+ people want something, it's more relevant than the thing 5 people want. Whether it harms gameplay or not (and Konami know the stuff that will, and could tell us that, and occasionally do).

I see your point about "becoming organised" but when you start creating big long lists of issues and saying "look into these ten things", Konami aren't going to listen - and other people aren't, because it's just too much.

They have a team of developers who know what they want to do - they're not looking for feedback. So for me, having one or two major criticisms that we try to get across to Konami as a community is what's important. There's half a chance of it actually happening, then.

We've done that with the positioning stuff, and even shooting has come up before now - both of which have received official responses. The problem is...

Those official responses come from the social media team - the gateway to the developers. When they respond "fingers in ears, la-la-la, stop criticising my game**", it's easy to believe that there's no point in point together any community response whatsoever.

**You might want to call that a passive-aggressive comment, but how else can you describe it when they're sent a well-thought-out and, crucially, well-documented point, and something 100 other customers agree with, to be met with "you're wrong" - when the previous year's analysis and current year's footage shows the same thing? Say "it could potentially wreck the game to implement that". That's absolutely fair enough.

TL:dr; the big issues get through to Konami. The smaller stuff doesn't, because if we don't all want it, then we don't really want Konami to hear it - and at the end of the day, their social media team block even the most detailed, documented critique.

Sliders sure as shite ain't the answer.

They make "the other game" playable, and have done for years. Without them, it'd be a much worse game, to the point where I wouldn't be able to enjoy it - so they've saved me from throwing away about £100 (digital copies, I'm an idiot, fair play)...

The "they make devs lazy" argument is paranoid nonsense that shows no knowledge of how gameplay is created (they don't just sit and play with sliders and go "there, we've created a new game") - games like NHL have sliders for an absolutely mental amount of stuff, and have continued to add new gameplay improvements. Not only that, but you can download user-created packages in some games, so that if you don't like the out-of-the-box experience, you can instantly download and apply a set with a description that matches your gameplay desires.

But this is one of those things that will never have a consensus behind it - so I (or you) just have to hope that they've absolutely nailed my (or your) personal preferences in every area from ball speed to shot accuracy this year, and if not, I (or you) will have to wait until next year.......

 

[curdstar]

@Lami got organized. He created a thread that stemmed across other forums, got 100 votes of yes, and it still wasn't enough.

It's quantity over quality. It's hopes versus facts.

Until KONAMI allow us to customize the gameplay to our liking, they will fall short of the sim community's expectations.

"I've created this poll in response to the many complaints about end to end arcade football that's been in PES for a while now."

I like Lami, have a lot of time for him but this is the first mistake in that thread.

Y'see, if one were to start off like that you are immediately talking down to both fans and the developers.

I have respect for you as well, Matt (follow you on twitter, subbed to your youtube channel), but I think it was you who tweeted/posted something during a livestream which read along the lines of how you couldn't believe that only you out of 1,300 watching were able to see positioning issues. That's talking down again, intentional (which I don't think it is, given your gentlemanly approach) or otherwise.

Polls on a community website aren't going to do it, especially not if it laced with accusations, directly or indirectly, that the developers are making an arcade game. Even using the term "arcade" is quite frankly lazy, and again is talking down.

I'll be completely honest: if I were producing something and there was a small passionate community talking downwards and in hyperbolic phrases about my efforts I would start to ignore them too. That is not controversial statement as you see it everywhere. Of course, doing so can come with many problems. I don't think Konami/Adam/Asim/whatever are doing that, not by a long shot.

Lami references change.org and alike, but this isn't some political outrage and our elected leaders are letting us down. We are talking about artists, creators and yeah, number/code crunchers when considering the development team in Japan. You need to look to engage with them in a way they can relate to.

Posting up polls, making Youtube videos in which you talk about an issue using a stream of a fixture in isolation isn't going to do it. Us whining about it on here isn't going to do it. None of these things will engineer change, because we start to come across as nothing more than occasionally useful idiots. Our passion, our wearing a sim-nation badge with pride, completely unapologetically and showing no compromise can easily communicate as hate just as much as FIFA fanboys shitting on the game does. This isn't exclusive to PES. You see it in politics (especially) too.

People saying they are fans who go way back with the series isn't enough. There needs to be a new way found to communicate and articulate. There certainly needs to be more empathy and more of a reality check across the board.

 

[*aLe]

yellow cards over players head are back!?

They were there in PES 2017 as far as I can remember... And I'm pretty sure I've also seen them in PES 2015.
Maybe it's because I play without nameplates?

 

[Chuny]

If we didn't become an "organized entity" back when the situation required it, back when the game was a complete mess (2008 till 2014), why would we now that it's better than ever and probably even the best football game in history, period?.

 

[Chuny]

Can anyone ask Bryan or someone else who played if they improved the fake-shot?
I miss how it was until PES 2013. They screwed it up after that.

 

[Matt10]

"I've created this poll in response to the many complaints about end to end arcade football that's been in PES for a while now."

I like Lami, have a lot of time for him but this is the first mistake in that thread.

Y'see, if one were to start off like that you are immediately talking down to both fans and the developers.

I have respect for you as well, Matt (follow you on twitter, subbed to your youtube channel), but I think it was you who tweeted/posted something during a livestream which read along the lines of how you couldn't believe that only you out of 1,300 watching were able to see positioning issues. That's talking down again, intentional (which I don't think it is, given your gentlemanly approach) or otherwise.

Polls on a community website aren't going to do it, especially not if it laced with accusations, directly or indirectly, that the developers are making an arcade game. Even using the term "arcade" is quite frankly lazy, and again is talking down.

I'll be completely honest: if I were producing something and there was a small passionate community talking downwards and in hyperbolic phrases about my efforts I would start to ignore them too. That is not controversial statement as you see it everywhere. Of course, doing so can come with many problems. I don't think Konami/Adam/Asim/whatever are doing that, not by a long shot.

Lami references change.org and alike, but this isn't some political outrage and our elected leaders are letting us down. We are talking about artists, creators and yeah, number/code crunchers when considering the development team in Japan. You need to look to engage with them in a way they can relate to.

Posting up polls, making Youtube videos in which you talk about an issue using a stream of a fixture in isolation isn't going to do it. Us whining about it on here isn't going to do it. None of these things will engineer change, because we start to come across as nothing more than occasionally useful idiots. Our passion, our wearing a sim-nation badge with pride, completely unapologetically and showing no compromise can easily communicate as hate just as much as FIFA fanboys shitting on the game does. This isn't exclusive to PES. You see it in politics (especially) too.

People saying they are fans who go way back with the series isn't enough. There needs to be a new way found to communicate and articulate. There certainly needs to be more empathy and more of a reality check across the board.

That's well said. You're right. I think it's a very tough balance to have a sense of being heard, then being heard, but not being considered.

The problem is, where does it start? How do we get on the train early enough to be considered? Meaning, at what point in time can I come out with the videos that address some of the concerns they had last year?

I think Lami's twitter correspondence with Adam is what nailed it for me though. It truly seems that the numbers are stacked against us, and without speaking on his behalf, but Adam as well, as he had said he wanted so many things - but quickly realized that the data did not support what he wanted.

Can we discuss sliders a bit? Like Chris said, FIFA does it, and it has kept the sim community going, and if not growing. I've seen this first hand by ways of the Operation sports sliders, and as you know, my YouTube channel. Hearing things like "I'm no longer getting into the Champions League with Tranmere Rovers", or "I finally have a challenge against the CPU", or "I love seeing the CPU actually build up and me having to build up against them", are all very positive - and can't help but support the idea of sliders.

The PES purist in me says "Hell No.", the realist in me says "Please, just do it".

 

[Chris Davies]

Hearing things like "I'm no longer getting into the Champions League with Tranmere Rovers"

"breaks my heart" - that's the next part of that sentence, right?

 

[kamy100]

Up until December I was firmly in the camp that I would stick with basic shooting because that was the default method and Konami should fix it. In the end I decided to give advanced shooting a go and I am glad that I did. The variety of shots (both low and high) and goals have transformed the game for me. I still feel that basic shooting should be fixed by Konami because they need to cater for those that do not want to try other methods but at to be honest even if they fixed it I would probably still stick with advanced shooting as I have come to appreciate the extra control now that I have got the hang of it.

 

[curdstar]

If we didn't become an "organized entity" back when the situation required it, back when the game was a complete mess (2008 till 2014), why would we now that it's better than ever and probably even the best football game in history, period?.

Well, the problem there is that you are saying the game was a mess from 2008-2014. Many people rave about 2011, 2013 and 2014, so it isn't that organised and unified.

 

[Chris Davies]

In the end I decided to give advanced shooting a go and I am glad that I did. The variety of shots (both low and high) and goals have transformed the game for me.

I think I'd be able to get into it if it was purely a height thing - if I could press shoot and then up or down, with the ball still going in the direction that I was originally pointing (then I wouldn't be completely flummoxed trying to change from movement direction to shot aim in the snap of a finger - I don't have that mental elasticity, it just doesn't happen for me)!

I did give it a go, but just couldn't adapt. I did the same with manual passing, and although I did adapt, I went back to PA1 anyway after one particular game against the AI where they had almost 100% pass accuracy and danced rings around me. So I guess I'm not as hardcore as I thought.

I still feel that basic shooting should be fixed by Konami because they need to cater for those that do not want to try other methods.

Thank you - that's my point exactly regarding passing and shooting. Person A loves total control (i.e. manual), Person B thinks that ruins player individuality (though Person A disagrees). Adding more error to PA1 doesn't effect Person A, but improves the game tenfold for Person B.

Same applies to sliders. Person A doesn't even notice it. Person B spends approximately six weeks of his life pissing about with all of them, analysing the pass accuracy rate at the end of every game between varying levels of competition - but he's happy at the end of it when he gets those numbers closer to reality (even if it ends up breaking something else - he doesn't care, because out-of-the-box, something is always a bit broken anyway, and he's improved the thing that's important to him).

 

[Sami 1999]

Really? The matches must have taken up to nearly 2 hrs . . .what were the scorelines like?

More like 2 hours and 30 mins most of the time. We take rest for 15-20 mins after each half lol, and most of the time, matches turns out to be a draw and we go for extra time after that.

We get 4 to 6 goals, or even score 5:5 sometimes.

But, once I played with Cameroon and my bro played using Brazil.

We ended up 8:20 lol. While it maybe realistic, it's just frustrating. Games felt very scripted as if my players weren't even trying to defend.



Kinda makes 5 star vs 2 star useless imo. Tactics didn't do shit. Who knows, how PES 18 will be.

 

[geeeeee]

PES Preview from Futhead's Dave: http://winningelevenblog.com/blog/pes-2018-preview-daves-thoughts/

After reading this I am the most optimistic I've been about the game. Sounds excellent apart from the shooting. I like the mention of players trying twice to control a goal kick and passes going astray.

 

[aussiepesfan]

Look brilliant, like, ridiculously good. Just would like the game to allow me take them from a broadcast camera angle for that "live" vibe...

..I want the option to be able to take a PK in my game playing view... that's why I want the pes 11 system back. its fully manual, easy to control, and can be done in any view without affecting the difficultly of execution.

 

[Isslander]

Let's hope they add being fouled in the box equaling a penalty. Against the AI, obviously.

Now if they want PES 2018 to truly feel fresh - New commentators.

 

[curdstar]

That's well said. You're right. I think it's a very tough balance to have a sense of being heard, then being heard, but not being considered.

The problem is, where does it start? How do we get on the train early enough to be considered? Meaning, at what point in time can I come out with the videos that address some of the concerns they had last year?

I think Lami's twitter correspondence with Adam is what nailed it for me though. It truly seems that the numbers are stacked against us, and without speaking on his behalf, but Adam as well, as he had said he wanted so many things - but quickly realized that the data did not support what he wanted.

Can we discuss sliders a bit? Like Chris said, FIFA does it, and it has kept the sim community going, and if not growing. I've seen this first hand by ways of the Operation sports sliders, and as you know, my YouTube channel. Hearing things like "I'm no longer getting into the Champions League with Tranmere Rovers", or "I finally have a challenge against the CPU", or "I love seeing the CPU actually build up and me having to build up against them", are all very positive - and can't help but support the idea of sliders.

The PES purist in me says "Hell No.", the realist in me says "Please, just do it".

You already have started, Matt, and I mean that as a compliment.

Moving onwards, I would then look at and consider timeline. Ask yourself and others:

"How long can I do this for?"

"How longer realistically should I expect to do this for?"

"When could I realistically expect to see results off the back of my feedback?"

The answer to the latter two of those questions can only really be answered by knowing firstly that your voice is being heard. I guess, therefore, in order to achieve that you need to sell yourself along with your ideas and research, particularly if you are looking at Adam's comment on how/what feedback is considered is driven by pure numbers. It is about standing out from the rest.

That requires some passion and commitment but it is entirely possible, more so than ever.

Speaking directly to your good self, Matt, what I am saying is that what you are doing is enough to get a community largely on board but you, personally should now start aiming higher. Getting support and goodwill for your work by us is a good thing, but your next personal goal should now be continuing to try to develop a working relationship with the likes of Adam, or Asim.

I'll drop you a pm soon, Matt, and elaborate on this further for you.

 

[Deco]

More like 2 hours and 30 mins most of the time. We take rest for 15-20 mins after each half lol, and most of the time, matches turns out to be a draw and we go for extra time after that.

We get 4 to 6 goals, or even score 5:5 sometimes.

But, once I played with Cameroon and my bro played using Brazil.

We ended up 8:20 lol. While it maybe realistic, it's just frustrating. Games felt very scripted as if my players weren't even trying to defend.



Kinda makes 5 star vs 2 star useless imo. Tactics didn't do shit. Who knows, how PES 18 will be.

8-20? Lol. Scripting exists in human v human games.

 

[James Beaver]

I did give it a go, but just couldn't adapt. I did the same with manual passing, and although I did adapt, I went back to PA1 anyway after one particular game against the AI where they had almost 100% pass accuracy and danced rings around me. So I guess I'm not as hardcore as I thought.

Having played PES 2017 on full manual since it came out - I still play regularly - I would like to state shortly that the CPU can rig a single match to be absolutely ridiculous. That's one form of scripting: an insane full match momentum advantage. There are other forms.

I have multiple approaches to such matches. Acceptance. Replay. Change of difficulty level. But I would never, ever consider abandoning manual passing: in the vast majority of matches it gives by far the most exciting gameplay for me.

Edit. In a "fair" match, top player CPU has a pass rate of 70-85%. In a rigged match it's typically around 95%.

 

[ThomasGOAL]

https://twitter.com/morgandelamare

 

[curdstar]

If I were to start theorising about the reason and intended result of anything right now it is the decision for Konami to allow for what is an unprecedented level of game footage to be captured (often directly) and published.

Personally, I did like to think it is honesty, as well as confidence. Maybe they are just looking to be honest and transparent with the game, or there is just outright confidence. Maybe they are comfortable for it to be shown because they are confident of what they do have to show, but there is much more to come in the way of improvements or additions to the game and spectacle as a whole.

I mean, there is tons and tons of footage of the game out there now.

 

[curdstar]

https://twitter.com/morgandelamare

Cool wee trick that with the hair. Certainly from a static capture anyway. Isn't it a subtle motion blurring effect they have used?

 

[GiogiPogi]

Look brilliant, like, ridiculously good. Just would like the game to allow me take them from a broadcast camera angle for that "live" vibe...

Likewise!

I think that happens, and it happens naturally through dialogue. If you have a critique about the game and enough people agree, a movement naturally forms with people asking questions on social media, and you end up with situations like the poll for @Matt10's positional critique (and @Lami presenting it to Adam for a response).

Where there isn't a consensus, we're just screaming into a void. Which is a good thing - without a consensus, we don't really want Konami to hear it in-case it hurts the game, do we*?

*Yes, any gameplay change could potentially harm the game. My point is, if 100+ people want something, it's more relevant than the thing 5 people want. Whether it harms gameplay or not (and Konami know the stuff that will, and could tell us that, and occasionally do).

I see your point about "becoming organised" but when you start creating big long lists of issues and saying "look into these ten things", Konami aren't going to listen - and other people aren't, because it's just too much.

They have a team of developers who know what they want to do - they're not looking for feedback. So for me, having one or two major criticisms that we try to get across to Konami as a community is what's important. There's half a chance of it actually happening, then.

We've done that with the positioning stuff, and even shooting has come up before now - both of which have received official responses. The problem is...

Those official responses come from the social media team - the gateway to the developers. When they respond "fingers in ears, la-la-la, stop criticising my game**", it's easy to believe that there's no point in point together any community response whatsoever.

**You might want to call that a passive-aggressive comment, but how else can you describe it when they're sent a well-thought-out and, crucially, well-documented point, and something 100 other customers agree with, to be met with "you're wrong" - when the previous year's analysis and current year's footage shows the same thing? Say "it could potentially wreck the game to implement that". That's absolutely fair enough.

TL:dr; the big issues get through to Konami. The smaller stuff doesn't, because if we don't all want it, then we don't really want Konami to hear it - and at the end of the day, their social media team block even the most detailed, documented critique.

They make "the other game" playable, and have done for years. Without them, it'd be a much worse game, to the point where I wouldn't be able to enjoy it - so they've saved me from throwing away about £100 (digital copies, I'm an idiot, fair play)...

The "they make devs lazy" argument is paranoid nonsense that shows no knowledge of how gameplay is created (they don't just sit and play with sliders and go "there, we've created a new game") - games like NHL have sliders for an absolutely mental amount of stuff, and have continued to add new gameplay improvements. Not only that, but you can download user-created packages in some games, so that if you don't like the out-of-the-box experience, you can instantly download and apply a set with a description that matches your gameplay desires.

But this is one of those things that will never have a consensus behind it - so I (or you) just have to hope that they've absolutely nailed my (or your) personal preferences in every area from ball speed to shot accuracy this year, and if not, I (or you) will have to wait until next year.......

Really good observations.

If we didn't become an "organized entity" back when the situation required it, back when the game was a complete mess (2008 till 2014), why would we now that it's better than ever and probably even the best football game in history, period?.

Fair point. Off the top of my head I can think of two reasons.

1. If the starting point is already very good, as PES 2018 seems to be shaping up to be, going forwards there are going to be fewer things that need to be “fixed” compared to the past; hence it might be easier to develop a consensus around which issues are in most urgent need of attention, which in turn could entail that the collective awareness of such issues gains the critical mass necessary to climb the “official” hierarchical ladder of development priorities.

2. In a future scenario where PES has sorted out its main problems and has hit the proverbial development plateau, organised feedback might be a good (and fun) way to inject new ideas concerning not only gameplay but also game modes, extras, etc.

 

[Matt10]

You already have started, Matt, and I mean that as a compliment.

Moving onwards, I would then look at and consider timeline. Ask yourself and others:

"How long can I do this for?"

"How longer realistically should I expect to do this for?"

"When could I realistically expect to see results off the back of my feedback?"

The answer to the latter two of those questions can only really be answered by knowing firstly that your voice is being heard. I guess, therefore, in order to achieve that you need to sell yourself along with your ideas and research, particularly if you are looking at Adam's comment on how/what feedback is considered is driven by pure numbers. It is about standing out from the rest.

That requires some passion and commitment but it is entirely possible, more so than ever.

Speaking directly to your good self, Matt, what I am saying is that what you are doing is enough to get a community largely on board but you, personally should now start aiming higher. Getting support and goodwill for your work by us is a good thing, but your next personal goal should now be continuing to try to develop a working relationship with the likes of Adam, or Asim.

I'll drop you a pm soon, Matt, and elaborate on this further for you.

Thanks, mate. Much appreciated.

Likewise!


Really good observations.


Fair point. Off the top of my head I can think of two reasons.

1. If the starting point is already very good, as PES 2018 seems to be shaping up to be, going forwards there are going to be fewer things that need to be “fixed” compared to the past; hence it might be easier to develop a consensus around which issues are in most urgent need of attention, which in turn could entail that the collective awareness of such issues gains the critical mass necessary to climb the “official” hierarchical ladder of development priorities.

2. In a future scenario where PES has sorted out its main problems and has hit the proverbial development plateau, organised feedback might be a good (and fun) way to inject new ideas concerning not only gameplay but also game modes, extras, etc.

1. Excellent point. Maybe it is indeed about finding the base. I think the part that a lot, myself included, seem to reply with "Well, they've been there before, why not just slap some animations/physics/graphics on PES6 and call it good?". However, the nostalgia is so strong that it can be blinding. Finding the base, in its current form, could actually be PES 2018.

2. Agreed. If we do get to that point, and every part of the base is achieved, what will stop it from being called PES 2018.5? I think that's the trouble that FIFA faces. Marketing gameplay fundamentals into nice little packages, when in fact, it's basically the same thing they market before.

 

[gurtejgps]

Did anyone notice anything like the infamous catch-up bug in 2017? I am praying they absolutely remove it.

And calling it catch-up 'bug' is a misnomer, it's not a bug but sort of like a feature in PES 2017, where AI slows down or speeds up players to let opponents catch them.

 

[gabe.paul.logan]

Sorry guys but passing too. Where do you see the error? Players hit PERFECT backwards passes the ones which you couldnt in the PS2 days...but 2-3 times out of 10 with top players only.

 

[GiogiPogi]

2. Agreed. If we do get to that point, and every part of the base is achieved, what will stop it from being called PES 2018.5? I think that's the trouble that FIFA faces. Marketing gameplay fundamentals into nice little packages, when in fact, it's basically the same thing they market before.

Exactly.

 

[Bravez]

I know I keep banging on but i really cannot believe how good this game looks and how well it moves. The gifs this guy is posting are simply incredible https://twitter.com/KurosakiCarlos2

I rarely get caught up in the hype with PES but this has me genuinely excited. Some of the little touches and animation will add so much to my enjoyment. Also, looking at those gifs there is some variation in shooting, not enough but more than I initially thought.

 

[ianni]

I know I keep banging on but i really cannot believe how good this game looks and how well it moves. The gifs this guy is posting are simply incredible https://twitter.com/KurosakiCarlos2

I rarely get caught up in the hype with PES but this has me genuinely excited. Some of the little touches and animation will add so much to my enjoyment. Also, looking at those gifs there is some variation in shooting, not enough but more than I initially thought.

That gifs are priceless, really loving them.