PES 2018 PlayStation & Xbox Discussion Thread

gerd said:
It is somehow worse, now that is really a fantastic explanation, imagine being Konami and getting that as feedback...
How is it worse?
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For me, at the very least, it's not an improvement as a whole. Dribbling etc. feels better, but team individuality (the sole reason I have always loved PES) has been diluted horribly, with all teams using the same... "exploits", almost (so many backheels, so many chipped through-balls).

Gerd, you say we have to be careful with our messaging and the way we communicate. But BEFORE RELEASE I provided a video review demonstrating this stuff. What more can you do but provide video evidence of real issues? Nicely? How many times have guys like @Matt10 done that?

One solitary gameplay patch later, it's the same. It's dramatic to say something like "ten years of broken promises" etc. but I genuinely feel like that's the situation we're in - especially offline players.

I'll be blunt - in my opinion, all PES is doing now is trying to copy FIFA, all of the time. Especially now that the focus seems to be behind the "casual". Surely we want a major difference in approach. If we're talking about mass-market mass-appeal fun-fun-fun, I don't see Konami winning that battle.

Don't try and out-FIFA FIFA. Make something different, get a different, more mature audience. I've read plenty of times that the average gamer is in their 30s. Who's to say a less casual approach wouldn't sell? But how would we know? Nobody's trying it.

BUT. Konami aren't the company to take that risk. They're a business, and an established one. They've stopped most game development and they've got a microtransaction, guaranteed-income approach, now. So the future is pretty clear. Especially now.
 
Hi Chris.
I agree with what you say about the lack of team and player individuality, but that was also the case in PES2017 and you really liked that one.
But i don't want an endless discussion.
I don't think there is anything wrong with your communication. There is nothing wrong with Matt's either (or neither?), but i often don't agree with him. I have a completely different opinion about football (and now i'm talking real football, not PES) than him. His (imo) wrong view about football 'colours' his criticism about PES, and makes it somewhat invalid for me, no matter how good he makes his point with excerpts of PES matches... Don't ask me an example now, because that is almost impossible to give... Damn i will try one, but i'm almost sure that i will not be able to prove my point.

Matt showed a video of a specific situation were a defender had to make a choice and where he was convinced that the AI defender made the wrong choice. I remember that the weekend before his post in a match against Liverpool, an opponent's defender made exactly the same choice and Coutinho scored. Pundits in the studio claimed (with the benefit of hindsight) that the defender made the wrong choice and should have stepped forward to block Coutinho. In that case Coutinho could have played a simple pass to another Liverpool attacker who should have scored...this was exactly what happened in the PES video.
To put it simplistic, Matt asks perfection from the AI, irl you don't see perfection.

A lot of stick Konami gets is exagerated and even culturally determined. An example: the backheels. There are too many backheels... Lots of people on this (English) forum will agree with that statement. A couple of weeks ago, Chelsea played one of their best matches of the season and this against Brighton. Hazard, Willian and Batschuayi (according to lots of Belgian fans he is a much better forward than Lukaku) had some wonderfull interplay including quite a few backheels. James Richardson and his guests discussed this match in the Totally Football podcast and i heard Richardson say that English people don't like backheels. The same day Gabriël Marcotti and his guests talked about the same match and they also said that English football fans don't like backheels. South American people love technical skills and backheels and Konami does target South America...

I'm not specially defending Konami, because imo they really deserve some stick, but some of the things that are criticised are the wrong things (backheels for example).

One could 'tune' the amount of backheels with sliders...for example let the choice between different styles: English, German, Italian, Spanish and South American...
 
As you say Gerd, endless discussion about the same point is no good to anyone, but:
gerd said:
To put it simplistic, Matt asks perfection from the AI, irl you don't see perfection.
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His point is that the AI should be better more often. Not always preventing an opportunity, not always preventing you from scoring, not always being perfect. His examples are just examples, and his point is that at the moment, it's the opposite to what you describe - (practically) always making basic errors.

Yes, it happens in real football, but what makes football (at the highest level) so great is that those basic errors are (relatively) rare (and usually lead to goals). Not constant.

(Before someone says it, I'm sure editing can improve it, but A) it's 2018 and we're still sold a product with a SHRUG, almost an "if you want it to be better, make it better yourself", and B) editing can only add the same "permanence", not a variation in how the AI reacts, because that can only be achieved through programming that variation to exist.)

That's not to say I don't really enjoy seeing posts like @Jimmy G-Force's - as @B-Man said, it's genuinely sort of heartwarming to see that a love of the game persists, that the enthusiasm and desire still exists.

Slightly off the current topic, sorry.
 
gerd said:
Hi Chris.
I agree with what you say about the lack of team and player individuality, but that was also the case in PES2017 and you really liked that one.
But i don't want an endless discussion.
I don't think there is anything wrong with your communication. There is nothing wrong with Matt's either (or neither?), but i often don't agree with him. I have a completely different opinion about football (and now i'm talking real football, not PES) than him. His (imo) wrong view about football 'colours' his criticism about PES, and makes it somewhat invalid for me, no matter how good he makes his point with excerpts of PES matches... Don't ask me an example now, because that is almost impossible to give... Damn i will try one, but i'm almost sure that i will not be able to prove my point.

Matt showed a video of a specific situation were a defender had to make a choice and where he was convinced that the AI defender made the wrong choice. I remember that the weekend before his post in a match against Liverpool, an opponent's defender made exactly the same choice and Coutinho scored. Pundits in the studio claimed (with the benefit of hindsight) that the defender made the wrong choice and should have stepped forward to block Coutinho. In that case Coutinho could have played a simple pass to another Liverpool attacker who should have scored...this was exactly what happened in the PES video.
To put it simplistic, Matt asks perfection from the AI, irl you don't see perfection.

A lot of stick Konami gets is exagerated and even culturally determined. An example: the backheels. There are too many backheels... Lots of people on this (English) forum will agree with that statement. A couple of weeks ago, Chelsea played one of their best matches of the season and this against Brighton. Hazard, Willian and Batschuayi (according to lots of Belgian fans he is a much better forward than Lukaku) had some wonderfull interplay including quite a few backheels. James Richardson and his guests discussed this match in the Totally Football podcast and i heard Richardson say that English people don't like backheels. The same day Gabriël Marcotti and his guests talked about the same match and they also said that English football fans don't like backheels. South American people love technical skills and backheels and Konami does target South America...

I'm not specially defending Konami, because imo they really deserve some stick, but some of the things that are criticised are the wrong things (backheels for example).

One could 'tune' the amount of backheels with sliders...for example let the choice between different styles: English, German, Italian, Spanish and South American...
Click to expand...

Sorry to jump in. I do agree with a lot of what's written here.
But the thing with backheels is, most of us (I even dare say NONE OF US) don't play real 45 minutes halves in PES. I'd bet we play 6, 7... maybe 10 minutes halves at most. So a lot of those automatic (this is the key word behind it all: automatic) backheels happen way too much, way too often, contained within those short matches. So the feeling you are left with by the time the match ends is that you remember seeing too many backheels compressed in such a short time frame. And, again, most of those backheels are decided automatically by the game, instead of forcing some other animation.

The same case scenario goes for fouls. One foul (IF one) in a 20 minutes match doesn't seem good enough. Take a real life football match at random and watch the first 20 minutes of it. I bet you, you'll see a lot more than 1 foul in 20 minutes.

I tend to disagree with Matt in many aspects as well. But if there's one thing that I agree with him a lot, is in players positioning and the battle for midfield, or... lack of. PES 2015, 2016, 2017 AND 2018 just aren't realistic AT ALL in this areas. Teams are split in two. Defense ------------- Attack. No in-between. You can get from you own box to 3/4 of your opponent's half with a pass or a lob, just because all there's a huge gap in between all that.

But I take that as a design choice. In fact, I know it's a design choice. They made all these years' games like that on purpose. They want the game to be broken and split in two like that. They want to give us that feeling of back and forth. Rushing from one box to the other. Getting a lot of scoring chances every match. When in reality, these matches should be an exception. They should somehow exist within the game, because we've all witnessed some electrifying, exciting matches like that in real life (recently, Liverpool V.S Manchester City, for example) but they should be nothing more than an exception and not a general rule.

If they could somehow get back the battle that existed in PES 2014, with the individuality of PES 2013, the animations and graphics of 2018, the variety in shooting that we had in PES 5-6, along with some new ideas and implementations, PES would be unbeatable.
 
gerd said:
It is somehow worse, now that is really a fantastic explanation, imagine being Konami and getting that as feedback...
How is it worse?

This may seem sarcastic (i'm sorry if so), but i'm really interested in what way it is worse...i don't see it. It's far from perfect, but imo it's not worse.

I agree with Ameppe about individuality, sliders will not change that. But sliders will help a lot of other problems. So if for example (one can always dream) Konami put sliders in 2019, then there is a big chance that lots of people will complain about individuality...sliders will help filter lots of problems...if you understand what i mean...
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I have given proper descriptive feedback in the appropriate channels, I am just simplifying based on the discussion at hand.

again keeping it simple, The AI has regressed and Master League is more broken than in the previous game. Obviously there is more but at a basic level that is my main gripes and what stopped me playing the game

and then there's the backheels...
 
Very good post from Chuny.
I think the length of the game may be an issue.
A got that idea when playing NBA2k. I love that game (i'm not a basket freak at allo, like to watch it but don't know nothing about the tactics).

If you want to have a decent simulation in NBA2K (and i'm not good enough to want real simulation), you have to play quarters of at least 28 minutes. That is way too long for me...imagine playing an NBA season + play-offs like that... I try it each year and never have been t othe end...not even remotely.

I play 15 minutes matches in PES. That are extended high lights and yes there is something wrong with the balance: too many backheels, not enough fouls, too many defensive errors (i agree with that)...

Maybe the developers should concentrate on that aspect...a PES match as a scale model of a real match...an impression, but a good impression.
 
Konami has released official reports, claiming PES 2018 has sold 2.3 million copies in the last 3 months. Best sales in 4 years.
 
And B is right. Why would any investor reallocate resources to rebuild the fundamentals like shooting, passing, positioning, tactics -with which im particulary not 100% satisfied- if the game sells that well?

They rather improve what needs improvement or build on what is already good and making money.

I dont see either the return of oldschool PES. Only if they rebuild it from scratch once again perhaps.
 
I don't see Adam Bhatti working at Konami past PES 2020 (you know, since... PES 2018 is supposed to be the start of a new 3 year cycle. which ends with PES 2020).
So that could be the new beginning we're all in desperate need. Damn, I'll be 33... fuck it, I quit, I'm hanging it up.
 
Right, let’s get the elephant out of the room between the fans and haters of PES.

Yes, it’s absolutely obvious to ignore the very similar tactics each CPU employs. Where are the long ball specialist teams, the classic counter attack tactics, those who park the bus looking to nick a goal from PES days previously ? Surely this can be patched ? All the variations are there.

What happened here ? And I’m sorry but I’ve nothing against Adam, I applaud what he’s managed to achieve, but what exactly are his football credentials ? Schoolboy, semi-pro, Northern League, professional ? Konami should employ a former player who can help explain all the technical fundamentals that they have nailed themselves over the years in many pioneeering facets.

Player individuality is still very apparent, but team tactics are missing.

Still, as much as that frustrates me, the Dribbling mechanics, variation of shots, animations, inertia, and many other classy additions keep me playing. They actually outweigh something that should be very easy to rectify.
 
Anyway, this 4-3 thriller against Arsenal was an incredible match. Superb goals, a realistic own goal and two amazing free-kicks. Definitely worth a watch, great highlights these, and the first I’ve ever uploaded.

 
gerd said:
I feel quite happy about the game. It's not a simulation, but to me it's quite fun for a couple of quick games after work and when my son isn't playing Fortnite.
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Same here.

I do enjoy this game. At least whenever I have some time left for 2 - 3 games continuing my ML.
That´s the only mode I keep playing.
Completely turned my back to myclub...it´s just not my mode.

I do enjoy the master league, even in it´s actual state.
Even there aren´t much injuries happening, even there are unrealistic transfers (signed Mbappe, Michael Owen, Michael Ballack to Derby County^^).

Even hardly any fouls being called in many games....even....even......even.....

The worst thing is that ML scripting! I hate those games that are meant to lose and it´s always games against low teams.
Played against Barca in CL group stage...it was easy...then afterwards played Watford for example and they were unbeatable.
(professional, full manual, game speed 0)
If only that could be fixed...

ML really needs an overhaul.
Couldn´t agree more.
 
Jimi_Zuko said:
If thats the case then they should have no excuse to employing a bigger team to focus more on each area for a full package this year.
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They didn't when they sold 6 millions or so every year, why should they do that this year with sales still being much lower than that?

Knowing Konami they will use these extra money for more useless licenses. Be wary i'm not saying licenses are useless per se, but they are useless if basics are so broken lie they are in Pes.
 
Jimmy G-Force said:
Right, let’s get the elephant out of the room between the fans and haters of PES. [...] What happened here ? [...] Player individuality is still very apparent, but team tactics are missing. [...] Still, as much as that frustrates me, the Dribbling mechanics, variation of shots, animations, inertia, and many other classy additions keep me playing. They actually outweigh something that should be very easy to rectify.
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I could kiss you, Jimmy. Thank you.

I can't recall seeing a post from someone who clearly absolutely loves the game (who even posts video content for us regularly), stating that there are clear steps backwards and an entire element of the game practically removed (i.e. tactics).

It is so refreshing against a backdrop of posts like the Trump-ish:
Edmundo 22 said:
Pes 2018 is a sublime great game.
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Because "sublime" isn't enough...
 
Jimmy G-Force said:
Player individuality is still very apparent, but team tactics are missing.

Still, as much as that frustrates me, the Dribbling mechanics, variation of shots, animations, inertia, and many other classy additions keep me playing. They actually outweigh something that should be very easy to rectify.
Click to expand...

Exactly. That’s why I think even with it’s problems it’s a great game (gameplay wise). It’s enjoyable and it def has a great foundation for next years game. I stopped because of the lack of offline modes, I just don’t enjoy MyClub the mode feels so lifeless and the presentation is even worse. Otherwise, I don’t really get all this hate, it still has its PES moments that we know it for. Adam says he’s in Japan to focus on offline modes which is excellent news to me.
 
PES94 said:
Exactly. That’s why I think even with it’s problems it’s a great game (gameplay wise). It’s enjoyable and it def has a great foundation for next years game. I stopped because of the lack of offline modes, I just don’t enjoy MyClub the mode feels so lifeless and the presentation is even worse. Otherwise, I don’t really get all this hate, it still has its PES moments that we know it for. Adam says he’s in Japan to focus on offline modes which is excellent news to me.
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I really do hope Adam is focusing on Offline modes, Master League and the other game modes could do with some improvement (please not an alex hunter style mode please ) so fingers crossed.

I certainly don't think Pes 2018 is a bad game, it does flow quite nicely, the goalkeepers I feel are fantastic and the best in years , animations, inertia all are pretty good improvements from last year. Sadly lack of tackles and fouls, Tactics don't seem to affect how a team plays and little pass error sadly makes me get bored of the game very quickly.

I do find it worrying with the main focus seems to be going towards Myclub, but I guess from a business stand point if it makes them more money then of course it will be there main focus. Id like to at least hope it will help with the Pes team growing so they can shift there focus to other areas like offline modes and things like improvements to editing, then again EA makes shit loads and still don't really improve the game much.

What I am a bit surprised by is why PES have not thought about making a Fifa Pro clubs equivalent, I reckon they could go into micro-transactions with setting it up in a similar way to Myclub, allow the ability to open packs and get players to add to your ai team, buy kits and balls, stadium and managers. Editing also for players is miles better than fifa.
 
I like pes 2018...also liked 2017, but think 2018 is definitly a step forward.

Im playing manual passing...if i try automatic passes i get bored immidiately.

Can you people please write if you play manual or assisted passing after you talked about the game. Cause its two completly different games. Someone that plays automatic and making a review is not even worth reading, cause thats not the game i play. (Well i know the AI doesnt change, but still different).

And i have no problem with lack of fouls...thats also something thats differ cause of the manual passing. Some passes are not perfect and put players in 50/50 situatuons which cause tackles and freekicks.
 
pellandi said:
(Well i know the AI doesnt change, but still different).
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That's they key though. The main issues with PES (IMO) are all on AI side of the game.
The perfectly guided passes and lofted through balls, the perfect first touches or ball control, the lack of variety when they attack, the perfect timing when tackling you most of the times (hence the lack of fouls), the huge gap in the midfield. So it doesn't really matter whether you play a fully assisted game (3 bars) or a fully manual one. The difference is that one makes it harder just for the human controlled team and that's it.
 
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