PES 2012 Discussion Thread .......

Thespeedster84 said:
Just for the sake of dicussion

YouTube - P8185388

Human vs human, better played compared to early vids e.g a bit more patient, focus on defender making unnecessary runs forward after every passing most of the time while not being underpressured. Of course this context that i don't want to see for the final build. If the context is more correct then it is okay.

Do you think both human player press R2 or make one two move all the time, i doubt it.

Let me say this, when playing PES 2011 in front of my eyes at first i try to look direclty at the next receiving player and sometimes the one that making a pass before in certain one-two situation. Untill, i try to observe in more big picture, i realise that PES 2011 passing animation should get changed. It is the "pass - freeze/stop - move" cycle. So yeah that might be what happen with some at gamescom i.e focus on the receiving player and team mate in front.
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what on earth was the keeper doing at 2:50? completely out of position (he was standing in line with the front post?) didnt react to the shot then did some crazy dive for the ball but got no where near it, i hope that is a one off but we saw the other situation where a keeper could have kept the ball in play but did some dodgy animation and missed it completely

also whats with eden hazard dribbling at 5:10? i thought all the playtesters reported that dribbling was incredibly realistic, the way he is running is physically impossible (this kind of thing rightly gets blasted in fifa), and i've seen more realistic animations in actua soccer 3

and another thing, i hope that was on fully assisted because some of the passes are bordering on ridiculous in terms of ping-pong style. i actually got more enjoyment out of watching the AI play in that last sporting vid, this video was not impressive for me at all
 
Lami: Do you remember if the long throws by the CPU are always the same? In 2011, you always knew where they would throw the ball to, it was extremely repetitive.

Anderson: Well I think you are pretty aware that there are a lot of people that say this is the intended behavior and nothing wrong with it. The PES Messiah himself says they are doing the runs to find space and that there is nothing wrong with it. Some of us can actually see that this is a glitch that has sneaked in, but far from everyone sees it (esp. over at wenb it seems).
 
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Hello guys,
Surely in the leaked vids from preview code that run thing isn't happening, and the ai looks pretty spot on, even pointing for space and running diagonally as forward.

Judging by these in the gamescon videos u can clearly see its not normal ai behaviour, seeing as it only happens for short passes, and not for long and through passes. I'd say konami screwed something up.

Sorry for my english
Peace
 
Gab_ said:
Do you remember if the long throws by the CPU are always the same? In 2011, you always knew where they would throw the ball too, it was extremely repetitive.
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I remember just one occasion where the cpu had a throw in near my box, so I ran to track the player closest to the thrower and then he instead threw it to the box. When that happened it was deja vu for me. Same as 2011. But to be fair, there was no one else to pass it to so I'll reserve my judgement til the demo's out.
 
Gab_ said:
Lami: Do you remember if the long throws by the CPU are always the same? In 2011, you always knew where they would throw the ball to, it was extremely repetitive.

Anderson: Well I think you are pretty aware that there are a lot of people that say this is the intended behavior and nothing wrong with it. The PES Messiah himself says they are doing the runs to find space and that there is nothing wrong with it. Some of us can actually see that this is a glitch that has sneaked in, but far from everyone sees it (esp. over at wenb it seems).
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Yeah I know that. Can't quite understand it tbh. I think it's due to the fact that it doesn't happen his code, so he thinks it's all the same. But oh well..
 
Lami: Thanks. Could be one of these things that are still the same. Kind of like defenders clearing headers from corners, always out in the middle outside the penalty area. It would just be nice with some variety to make every game feel more unique.
 
_anderson said:
Yeah I know that. Can't quite understand it tbh. I think it's due to the fact that it doesn't happen his code, so he thinks it's all the same. But oh well..
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You are right, that's exactly it. It didn't happen in his code and he even said that he can't believe people say he is holding something back, but we don't.

The only question mark is that Suffwan and Asim claims to have played the exact same version that is on gamescom and didn't notice it. However, this could just be because they too don't see anything wrong with the videos. We need someone that see the glitchyness to play next build, but I don't think we have a person for that. The thought of this glitch making it to full game is killing me, when everything else look perfect.
 
Are there any examples of CBs actually moving a considerable distance out of the back line and out of their half? As opposed to 5 yards or so? I've not really been keeping on top of the videos so don't know which are the best examples of what. The only cases I've seen had CBs only move forward a bit.

If this forward run is indeed in the game by design rather than as a bug, then you would have to wonder why not a single person who played the game, press or community based, commented on it at all. If it was in earlier builds too, then it's literally only come to light with these videos when the viewers have not actually been part of the action.

Would it be because not a single person who has played the game knows what they are talking about? Or is it because it doesn't actually affect the gameplay in the potentially frightening/gamebreaking way people think?

I still think we're not really seeing the full picture, and can't until the demo comes out. I know what I saw when I played, and I saw Barca passing around the back, just shy of the halfway line. I didn't see Puyol pass to Busquets and then gallop away into the distance. But then, according to Adam the AI wasn't changed for the GC build, and we can see that the sprinting forward looks scary in these videos. He also told me that this was apparent with Real Madrid as Pepe burst forward 5 yards or so before stopping, but that Stoke's CBs didn't get involved in forward play at all.

We need the demo to actually see what's going on, and to see how the actual game feels as a result. But I've not yet seen any evidence of this breaking the game, either by overloading the opposition or by leaving too much exploitable space at the back - that particular concern about forward running seems negligible.
 
Imo,theres not a forward run bug.Its how the new active ai system works and is a deliberate design choice.While theres little doubt after every pass the players generally move forward to recieve a forward pass,they never loose there position awareness or do they comprimise the structural integrity of the defence.Other players cover spaces left providing cover and if play does break down any players moving forward are quick to get back into position.Also if you really pay attention the players are always aware of whats going on around them and the position of the ball,its very clever stuff.If the player moving forward after a pass is a defender and doesnt recieve a instant return pass,they then start to mave back or position themselves for a supporting pass,but theres always cover and they never leave a huge gap for the opposition to exploit.

Its almost like certain individuals are so paranoid that pes2012 isnt the game perfect that they hyped it up in there mind to be that there willing to believe theres a gamebreaking forward run bug.

Theres a lot of edited videos with a mix of l1+x spamming and the ai moving forwards after passing but its difficult from videos to really accertain the point in the match this is happening,what the score is and the context in which and why the ai is making these choices.

Imo,pes2012 looks like a AI revolution for football games,one which has been a long time coming and one that will re-ignite the fun and playability that been so absent in football games this gen.
 
Personally I see a problem in those videos which I'm 100% certain I didn't see when we played it. Every video, or at least almost every one, looks like the L1 button is held for every single pass, AI or otherwise.

It doesn't just look different from my memory, it looks 100% different from what is in (ALL) of the earlier videos, and the trailers, and it's quite hard to be told different, because I almost can't find a single example of a pass not being followed by a forward run on one hand (unless pass is intercepted), but in the earlier videos/trailer this isn't the case. Frankly, my recollection of the AI is much more advanced than the AI which is on show in these videos. It was a lot cleverer than straight run after straight run and a lot less stupid than bringing the CBs up 20 yards after a pass, on their own. I'm slightly bemused that the GS testers can't even see what we're on about with the videos. It's one thing to say it's not a problem but it's a bit odd that they can't see why we think there might be. We have to give them the benefit of the doubt of course.

There is no use going over it now though, nothing will change in the next 5 days. The demo will be what it will be, and it will probably be fine, and if it isn't, we'll make some noise. I'm pretty confident it will all be fine.
 
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romagnoli said:
Are there any examples of CBs actually moving a considerable distance out of the back line and out of their half? As opposed to 5 yards or so? I've not really been keeping on top of the videos so don't know which are the best examples of what. The only cases I've seen had CBs only move forward a bit.

If this forward run is indeed in the game by design rather than as a bug, then you would have to wonder why not a single person who played the game, press or community based, commented on it at all. If it was in earlier builds too, then it's literally only come to light with these videos when the viewers have not actually been part of the action.

Would it be because not a single person who has played the game knows what they are talking about? Or is it because it doesn't actually affect the gameplay in the potentially frightening/gamebreaking way people think?

I still think we're not really seeing the full picture, and can't until the demo comes out. I know what I saw when I played, and I saw Barca passing around the back, just shy of the halfway line. I didn't see Puyol pass to Busquets and then gallop away into the distance. But then, according to Adam the AI wasn't changed for the GC build, and we can see that the sprinting forward looks scary in these videos. He also told me that this was apparent with Real Madrid as Pepe burst forward 5 yards or so before stopping, but that Stoke's CBs didn't get involved in forward play at all.

We need the demo to actually see what's going on, and to see how the actual game feels as a result. But I've not yet seen any evidence of this breaking the game, either by overloading the opposition or by leaving too much exploitable space at the back - that particular concern about forward running seems negligible.
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But isn't the demo straight from preview code? If it's something that was "introduced" in newer codes we won't experience it in the demo.
 
romagnoli said:
Are there any examples of CBs actually moving a considerable distance out of the back line and out of their half? As opposed to 5 yards or so? I've not really been keeping on top of the videos so don't know which are the best examples of what. The only cases I've seen had CBs only move forward a bit.

If this forward run is indeed in the game by design rather than as a bug, then you would have to wonder why not a single person who played the game, press or community based, commented on it at all. If it was in earlier builds too, then it's literally only come to light with these videos when the viewers have not actually been part of the action.

Would it be because not a single person who has played the game knows what they are talking about? Or is it because it doesn't actually affect the gameplay in the potentially frightening/gamebreaking way people think?

I still think we're not really seeing the full picture, and can't until the demo comes out. I know what I saw when I played, and I saw Barca passing around the back, just shy of the halfway line. I didn't see Puyol pass to Busquets and then gallop away into the distance. But then, according to Adam the AI wasn't changed for the GC build, and we can see that the sprinting forward looks scary in these videos. He also told me that this was apparent with Real Madrid as Pepe burst forward 5 yards or so before stopping, but that Stoke's CBs didn't get involved in forward play at all.

We need the demo to actually see what's going on, and to see how the actual game feels as a result. But I've not yet seen any evidence of this breaking the game, either by overloading the opposition or by leaving too much exploitable space at the back - that particular concern about forward running seems negligible.
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There are examples of CB running a very long way up the field after a pass, but they have the cover system so as long as the DM hasn't done the same, he will fall back.

It's obvious by comparing builds that the behavior is only new to the Gamescom build. It's night and day in the movement after a pass. I would assume the reason people don't complain about it is because this is very similar to how they play the game anyway. If they don't see anything wrong with the new videos, then why would they complain?

It's fine if people like to play pass-and-go on every pass, that is what the L1+Pass is there for. But a lot of us don't want this to happen automatically all the time. No one has ever passed the ball around at the back in these videos because it can't be done, there's no one there to pass it to.

Even if they only sprint 5-10 meters, for that moment they leave a huge gap if they lose the ball. Doesn't matter as long as you keep the ball, but if you lose it there will be trouble.
 
Guys watch the second half of the lille-rennes match. Hazard movement for the goal is unreal and the shot fake is back with avengence
 
Yeah I don't think the demo will allay any fears about this, if it's from an earlier code then it's anyone's guess what the final version will be like. Interestingly, I just read John Murphy's twitter and not a single question to him about this that I could see...
 
I didn't get to play any early code but I'm a little disappointed that the speed looks a lot faster in the videos I've seen. I like the pace of PES and the passing also looks a lot more FIFA_like to me in that it's very fast, over accurate with a lot of one touch football.

I'll see what the demo is like and I'm sure I'll get the full game but if PES has gone closer to FIFA I think I'll be a little disappointed as I've just got used to the great inertia in PES and the fast the game is the harder it is to really get that full sense of it being there.
 
Gab_ said:
There are examples of CB running a very long way up the field after a pass, but they have the cover system so as long as the DM hasn't done the same, he will fall back.

It's obvious by comparing builds that the behavior is only new to the Gamescom build. It's night and day in the movement after a pass. I would assume the reason people don't complain about it is because this is very similar to how they play the game anyway. If they don't see anything wrong with the new videos, then why would they complain?

It's fine if people like to play pass-and-go on every pass, that is what the L1+Pass is there for. But a lot of us don't want this to happen automatically all the time. No one has ever passed the ball around at the back in these videos because it can't be done, there's no one there to pass it to.

Even if they only sprint 5-10 meters, for that moment they leave a huge gap if they lose the ball. Doesn't matter as long as you keep the ball, but if you lose it there will be trouble.
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The thing is gab,you can clearly see the difference between a triggered run by the end user and a run triggered by the ai.The ai triggered runs are slower and they only move slightly forward and most of the time stop or move back if there not passed to,they dont just leave a huge gap.

Your really running with this one and i get the impression this is some kind of campaign of mis-information to generate hysteria in the community.

Theres so much good in these videos,so many pluses,but you seem hell bent in just going over this so-called forward bug that clearly isnt a bug.

Konami have been battered by the press and gamers alike over the last 4 years,do you seriously think they would exhibit code which in your mind has such a noticable floor that many on the show floor havent even highlighted.

Videos can lie and they can also be heavily edited and manipulated to show a product in a very negative light.
 
Reading some people's opinion elsewhere, I get the impression that PES really is a religion.
 
AsimTanvir Asim Tanvir
Watched a few PES 2012 videos, don't see this "always running forward" thing peeps are talking about.
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someone tweet him a link to the video someone on here made with the run run run run text, if he sees that and still can't see it then i'm not sure what to say
 
Expander: I don't agree, trigger run is a trigger run. Massive difference between the builds. Are you saying there is no difference or that you like it?

I already posted that I think everything else is perfect and don't want this new glitch to ruin everything. And about being a "campain", maybe it is I don't know, if telling EA every year that I want them to fix the perfect touches is a campain, then I guess this is too. I see something that does not belong there and I want them to know about it.
 
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Here's a new video where the forward-run-problem of the CB's isn't nearly as extreme as in the other videos:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ul2QcQhzJrs&feature=player_embedded#

My take on this:


I wanted to stay silent on the topic until I played the demo, but given that everyone else continues to talk about the topic, I couldn't resist to contribute my thoughts, especially that this new video gives more insight into the topic:

The player-run-problem of CB's (and that's the only ones we are talking here) is not as extreme as in the other videos... so that means that it obviously is depending on tactic-setting.

What happens in this video is that there is a pass-run-automatism for everyone including CB's, they run forward for a few meters and then return to their ideal position. Probably depending on tactic-setting the amount of meters they run forward differs, when set on full offensive it is probably more than when set on defensive.

Is that a problem? Probably not an extremely big one cause they return to their positions... but is it realistic? No, cause CB's are the last defenseline and there is no point in running forward a few meters and then to return to their position, in reality that behaviour would rob them of their stamina and they need every drop of it to be able to run when the fast striker-attackers of the opponents are testing them.

Like I often said the missing shortterm-stamina-model is allowing things in game that wouldn't be practicable in real football and this is one of them.

The other thing is that the movement is always forward and then back again, why not pass and jog (not run) forward a bit or sideways or even backward to make more room for the midfield?

More variance in speed and direction would be nice.

I hope that Konami will finetune this between Gamescom-build and final build.
 
Expander said:
The thing is gab,you can clearly see the difference between a triggered run by the end user and a run triggered by the ai.The ai triggered runs are slower and they only move slightly forward and most of the time stop or move back if there not passed to,they dont just leave a huge gap.

Your really running with this one and i get the impression this is some kind of campaign of mis-information to generate hysteria in the community.

Theres so much good in these videos,so many pluses,but you seem hell bent in just going over this so-called forward bug that clearly isnt a bug.

Konami have been battered by the press and gamers alike over the last 4 years,do you seriously think they would exhibit code which in your mind has such a noticable floor that many on the show floor havent even highlighted.

Videos can lie and they can also be heavily edited and manipulated to show a product in a very negative light.
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you do actually sound religious in the way you are defending the game. it reminds me of christians saying "well there is so much good in the bible why do you keep concentrating on the odd genocide here and there". by defending this as "not a bug" you are actually insulting the intelligence of the developers. if its just a bug then it will be fixed and hey bugs happen, if its by design then its possibly the worst design decision in the history of gaming.
 
I can't believe how they say there's no problem, people who were at gamescom and played the game.
ffs, when you see a CB making a pass and then running forward, you say that's not a problem?
It'll probably be solved by Konami until final release, but these people should at least shut up and admit it.
 
henrys hand said:
What happens in this video is that there is a pass-run-automatism for everyone including CB's, they run forward for a few meters and then return to their ideal position. Probably depending on tactic-setting the amount of meters they run forward differs, when set on full offensive it is probably more than when set on defensive.
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This is the thing. It doesn't matter if they return again. Why the hell do they do it at all? It's not realistic behavior, it makes the AI extremely predictable because you KNOW he will run straight ahead after a pass. Of course you can take advantage of this if you know it. Also makes every team play the same, just sprinting up the pitch, resulting in the 5-0-5 formations.

The leaked video looks much better in pace because you don't have the pass-and-goes, I bet it's exactly the same ball speed and player speed.
 
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What's worrying me right now is people putting faith in the demo coming next week. If it's a "newer build only" bug, it won't be there, 'cause next weeks demo is supposed to be preview code, and apparently it wasn't there back then.
 
Expander said:
Konami have been battered by the press and gamers alike over the last 4 years,do you seriously think they would exhibit code which in your mind has such a noticable floor that many on the show floor havent even highlighted.

Videos can lie and they can also be heavily edited and manipulated to show a product in a very negative light.
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Have you made sure you have two layers of aliminium foil over your head? Otherwise the CIA can log-in to your brain! ;) Conspiracy theories aside, I really can't believe people can't see the "run Forest run" stuff going on.

Whether it's a bug or a tactics settings is another matter. If it's just a blanket tactics setting in the demo I can somewhat understand Konami for doing it. Gametime per person is limited and they will want to show off the AI as much as possible, so maybe they made a poor decision (wouldn't be the first time) to go overboard to make sure everyone playing the game will notice. It's not like graphics have changed much, animation is better but still poor compared to FIFA so they do really, really need to show the AI working. And let's face it, there aren't hardcore people there most of the time so they need to be overwhelmed by any changes made.

It looks crap, and for us plays crap.....but it is showing the active AI very clearly. For the people playing they're probably thinking; "Hey wow, the AI is really trying to help me attack". We all know that everyone at those conventions plays like a nutter to atleast score a goal when do they finally get a game so defensive qualities go out of the window anyway.
 
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Does stamina have a bearing on the amount of forward runs made by the AI? When players tire towards the end of a match they become less likely to make bursting runs. If players can makes these kind of runs with the same intensity for 90 minutes then something is wrong.
 
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