PES 2011 Discussion thread

Jimmy G-Force said:
Me to. But look at this another way. We are looking for maybe 3-5 players maxmium with an attacking mentality based on a CMF/AMF, LMF, RMF and possibly LSB and RSB depending on formation. I think you can take the average AMF to have an Attacking mentality anyway. Most CMF's will be Balanced, others will be Defensive or Attacking orientated. Finding fullbacks with an Attacking mentality will be very good, and specific, like I mentioned prior, not every fullback in the world has the same mentality as Ashley Cole, Glen Johnson or Maicon. It will be nice to search for this type of fullback, and there will be 100's of them out there.
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I see what you are saying Jimmy and there is a part of me that thinks its not soo bad, but ultimately it is leaving you with a less flexible approach to team management and that is not good. It will also require that you have a player in your squad to play in certain situaions when before all you had to do was change the defense option for an existing player.
It may even be more realistic this way, I dont think there are that many players with an attacking mindset that will become defensively disciplined because the manager told them to be. But the option was something that I found absolutely necessary in past games and the demo misses it IMO and so will the full game.
I will no doubt learn to live without it but at the moment, naughty Sea Bass :RANT:
 
For a game that is so dependant on stats that is ridiculous and unacceptable, what's the point in having stats if they are not going to adhere to them.
 
Jimmy G-Force said:
I must admit, this doesnt bother me too much, I like it being player specific, and I like the idea of building an ML team around this. Buying players that are naturally attack-minded for the positions I choose will enhance the individual nature of the teams. I appreciate the downside of this system, but there are ways to work around it with team tactics and strategies.
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cant you train up players to be more attack minded especially youngsters/reserves?
 
sincover said:
Coming from a heavy science background, I've conducted some experiments and created a video about the results. The experiments were conducted several times and the results are reproducible.
Feel free to rip into it and let me know if I did something wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZ3WKW58A9c
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the only bad thing is the sprint issue...they are really too fast o.O although you must say that they have no ball!

The other thing is good as it is. It is very hard to keep a ball while sprinting and being tackled at the same time.
Try it without sprinting and it is fine!
 
Jimmy G-Force said:
I must admit, this doesnt bother me too much, I like it being player specific, and I like the idea of building an ML team around this. Buying players that are naturally attack-minded for the positions I choose will enhance the individual nature of the teams. I appreciate the downside of this system, but there are ways to work around it with team tactics and strategies.
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I disagree actually that's more like a result of lazy effort of programming than enhancing individuality

I'm sorry but once again I will appeal to Football Manager here, you see in these games, you can order puyol to do play making in the team, but then of course his lack of abilities/stats in play making specific skills would result his play making utterly horrible.

why on earth we are restricted from telling one of our player in our team to be more aggressive and free roaming on the pitch? why can't we tell our winger to or not to do incisive runs? that's completely opposite of realism that Konami wanted to achieve with this game.

the solution would be to expand the stats system... add stats like offensive and defensive (off the ball) positioning, creativity, determination, flair, etc.
 
Ive got the game for my pc and have had a chance to play it abit. I though the full game would be alot better if im being honest. The turning feels clunky still. It doesnt feel 360 too me. Im annoyed that the pc version does not have -1 and -2 speed adjustments. The AI are good however. A vast improvement over last year. The goalkeepers have improved yet i seen some stupid parrys for a corner when their was no pace on the ball so it should of been a comfy save. Im still not a fan of the running animations. For me konami need to get this sorted. And like i said the game does not feel 360.
 
sincover said:
Coming from a heavy science background, I've conducted some experiments and created a video about the results. The experiments were conducted several times and the results are reproducible.
Feel free to rip into it and let me know if I did something wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZ3WKW58A9c
Click to expand...

Very interesting.

If the fatigue problem that was mentioned a few days ago and now this, were as bad in Fifa then it would have been ripped apart in the Fifa thread.

But Pes never promised the world, so nobody will be that harsh on Pes, because at the end of the day people are enjoying it....so that is all that matters.

It just goes to show that alot of what people are calling for and getting so worked up about doesn't really matter a great deal. The main thing that matters is how the game plays as a whole. People that love Pes say the game plays amazingly for them, so why does it matter about the stats not really counting or the fatigue system being extremely flawed? if people are enjoying the game then that is all that matters.

It jsut also goes to show that there needs to be a mixture of fun and sim in a football game. Because as mentioned, it will never truly be a sim when you play less than 45mins a half imo.

I do think that people are glazing over some of the points that pes fails on, but then if you are extremely happy about playing the game, then it doesn't really matter. People are excited that Pes is reaching giddy heights again and that is fair enough.

but it does seem silly when people completely slate Fifa and then Pes holds up just as glaringly bad problems....but alot of people brush aside. I do think though that Fifa deserves alot of the negativity because it promised alot and hasn't delivered, whereas pes didnt (as far as i know?).

Anyway, my point is people need to enjoy their prefered game of football and stop being overly critical of each game. If one person finds it enjoyable, that means the game is enjoyable. Nobody then needs to post back and describe why it isn't enjoyable...because that is their opinion.

Anyway, I don't really know what I am saying at the moment :PP there was a point in their somewhere :))
 
jonneymendoza said:
cant you train up players to be more attack minded especially youngsters/reserves?
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I cant check on PES 2010, also you didnt need to as you could just change the Player Card to attacking. Maybe it's possible, I will need to check on the full release.

Sincover, I understand what you mean now, but I need to play the full game to see how this works properly.
 
sincover said:
Coming from a heavy science background, I've conducted some experiments and created a video about the results. The experiments were conducted several times and the results are reproducible.
Feel free to rip into it and let me know if I did something wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZ3WKW58A9c
Click to expand...

I think it's a good experiment,

BUT again, thing about 'rubberbanding!' If you want to leave the defender! You HAVE to Sprint when with the ball either by tapping the R1 button OR The most effective way of speeding away from a significantly slower player which is using R1 and R2 and turning just slightly, knocking the ball on ahead :)

I'll comment more on the tackle glitch if it grates me when i get the full game.

A speed patch will come soon fro the PC, don't worry about the game being fast! I think there must of been issues with Konami including -1 and -2, maybe in terms of framerates etc.. :)
 
Finally figured out how to get my players making runs and filling in spaces. Wow, gameplay feels really rewarding and much easier too, shame about reviewers who are too inept to tinker around with so many options.
 
napo_rz said:
I disagree actually that's more like a result of lazy effort of programming than enhancing individuality

I'm sorry but once again I will appeal to Football Manager here, you see in these games, you can order puyol to do play making in the team, but then of course his lack of abilities/stats in play making specific skills would result his play making utterly horrible.

why on earth we are restricted from telling one of our player in our team to be more aggressive and free roaming on the pitch? why can't we tell our winger to or not to do incisive runs? that's completely opposite of realism that Konami wanted to achieve with this game.

the solution would be to expand the stats system... add stats like offensive and defensive (off the ball) positioning, creativity, determination, flair, etc.
Click to expand...

I dont agree, its all about individualism. Pronounced Free Roaming, Aggression, Incisive Runs are all player specific, if you want it generic across the board, then PES will not give you that. I'm all for real-life attacking fullbacks having that trait replicated. Most fullbacks are defensive by definition, thats what makes the more attacking fullbacks prominent. These type of defenders are like wingers in a sense, that is now replicated, it's another string to their bow, and what seperates them from defensive fullbacks in real life. It's far from lazy programming. Lazy programming would make every player in this regard the same. Therefore there is a level of thought applied to this system, whether you buy into it or not.

To put it another way, do you think Chelsea paid millions for Ashley Cole purely for his defensive abilities ? Of course not, Cole will never be a Paulo Maldini with regard his defensive duties, but what Cole does offer both Chelsea and England is another option entirely. And thats what we now have respected in this new system. Another level of individuality. Which is never a bad thing.

I'm all for this new system, it makes you work more to each players strengths and weaknesses, which is the essence of football. Just my 2 cents.
 
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dmxdex2020 said:
The turning feels clunky still. It doesnt feel 360 too me. Im annoyed that the pc version does not have -1 and -2 speed adjustments. The AI are good however. A vast improvement over last year. The goalkeepers have improved yet i seen some stupid parrys for a corner when their was no pace on the ball so it should of been a comfy save. Im still not a fan of the running animations. For me konami need to get this sorted. And like i said the game does not feel 360.
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:LOL: Sorry dude, but after trying out skilled players, you can honestly say it doesn't "feel" 360? And turning feels spot on, at least they're not running on air like that other game :JAY:
 
mr_man said:
:LOL: Sorry dude, but after trying out skilled players, you can honestly say it doesn't "feel" 360? And turning feels spot on, at least they're not running on air like that other game :JAY:
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Its just the feel i got man. I do like the game. Maybe i need more time to adjust. I also noticed that your players can slide tackle or shoot on their own sometimes. That needs to be fixed as its damn fustrating.
 
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@ Thypari
For the second part of the video I was not sprinting, it happened while I was moving at normal running speed. I rarely sprint when playing real matches.

@ Jimmy
I'm glad i was finally able to get my view across. Before I conducted the experiments I though I was going crazy.

@Klashman
Perhaps i'll include tests where I did what you said next time. I'm interested to see how that affects the CPU defenders. However, I still don't think that a CPU defender with 30 speed and acceleration should be able to keep up with a 99 player in a dead sprint.
 
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I tell you what i hate about this game and have done for a long time. Is the poor celebrations. When you score goal 1 you should seen your player get mobbed by his team mates. That none existant in this game. Also when you score their is a delay for the celebration. i scored with fabiano and he just stood their for like 3 seconds before he ran off celebration. Seriously konami these problems have been in the game for ages its about time things like this got fixed. They need to add custom celebrations into the game. Take a leaf out of fifas book. Fifa is not all that bad.
 
sincover said:
Coming from a heavy science background, I've conducted some experiments and created a video about the results. The experiments were conducted several times and the results are reproducible.
Feel free to rip into it and let me know if I did something wrong.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EZ3WKW58A9c
Click to expand...

Note the action from 12 seconds, when a 2nd defender who is running towards you has to slow down to a stop, turn 180 and then accelerate up to full speed, but does it all in an instant and is immediately on your tail at full speed.

The fact that the laws of physics that apply to your players are ignored for cpu players is precisely the feature of FIFA that makes playing against the cpu so awful.

Btw, the cpu controlled players have never adhered to the stats in PES. I used to do similar tests to yours in the so called glory days of PES and these issues have always existed. I learned there's little point dwelling on them as frankly, Seabass isn't listening.
 
i bought fifa 11 on ps3 guys and played a few games on that. imo pes is better. especially the passing.

no zip in passing in fifa 11 :(. im going to have more bash in it but as of now, PES edges it.
 
winston said:
Note the action from 12 seconds, when a 2nd defender who is running towards you has to slow down to a stop, turn 180 and then accelerate up to full speed, but does it all in an instant and is immediately on your tail at full speed.

The fact that the laws of physics that apply to your players are ignored for cpu players is precisely the feature of FIFA that makes playing against the cpu so awful.

Btw, the cpu controlled players have never adhered to the stats in PES. I used to do similar tests to yours in the so called glory days of PES and these issues have always existed. I learned there's little point dwelling on them as frankly, Seabass isn't listening.
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Oh please. :CONFUSE:

And trying to use that small clip to justify your point in that regard is beyond ridiculous in my opinion, more so in next gen.
 
dmxdex2020 said:
Its just the feel i got man. I do like the game. Maybe i need more time to adjust. I also noticed that your players can slide tackle or shoot on their own sometimes. That needs to be fixed as its damn fustrating.
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I feel the game has 360 mvement but it differnt from the other game. In FIFA, I assume this is your basis for saying PES does not feel 360, you turn with the ball stuck to your foot, this makes it look very fluid, feel very smooth and gives you a greater degree of movement. I say FIFA has a greater degree of movement not because PESs lacks 360 movement but because in PES you turn in increments because you have to move the football through the angles aswel as the player. To get a more fluid feeling you are required to use very slight movements of the stick and move very slow, no sprinting, then the player will take closer touches of the ball and move with a greater degree of freedom. Also hold R2 helps as you can stept on the ball and drag it to your desired angle which is also quicker.
 
jonneymendoza said:
i bought fifa 11 on ps3 guys and played a few games on that. imo pes is better. especially the passing.

no zip in passing in fifa 11 :(. im going to have more bash in it but as of now, PES edges it.
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Time to change your signature on the maybe games then!
 
Also PES isn't the pick up and play game that most folk in FIFA are used to. It's all about simulation and tinkering and if people don't have the patience to experiment with formations and tactics that go wrong then maybe it's time to jack it!!

I love PES because of the depth of tactics and little touches that it brings into each game. That's what's kept me playing it for years. It's always had that something and not everything in football is perfect.......Ask Rob Green!
 
Hmm, after some very interesting experiments it seems that there is less deviation between a player with 99 stats when he has the ball and a player with 30 stats when he doesn't have the ball.

Here's how I set up the experiment: The two players (99 and 30) each had to run from the goal line to the half line, both with the ball and without the ball. I took 5 separate measurements with each player, then calculated the average (among other things).

Here are my findings:

99 Stats Player
WITH BALL
Dead Sprint (Hold R1)(secs) – 7.23, 7.25, 7.20, 7.27, 7.23
Average Time = 7.24 secs

30 Stats Player
WITHOUT BALL
Dead Sprint (secs) – 7.16, 7.13, 7.16, 7.12, 7.14
Average Time = 7.14 secs

This was very surprising. According to my observations, the 30 stats player, when chasing without the ball, is actually faster.


Here are more results:

99 Stats Player
WITHOUT BALL
Dead Sprint (secs) – 7.0, 7.03, 7.0, 7.02, 7.03
Average Time = 7.02 secs

30 Stats Player
WITH BALL
Dead Sprint (secs) – 9.04, 9.0, 9.01, 8.98, 9.01
Average Time = 9.01 secs

As you can see, the deviation caused by having the ball for the 99 stats player is only ~0.22 secs, while the deviation for the 30 stats player is a whopping ~1.87 secs.

These results suggest that ball possession makes all the difference. I'd wager that as Jimmy said, this system was put into place to stop sprinting abuse. The CPU isn't rubberbanding, when chasing you down, they are simply faster.

Gotta love good old empirical data. :WORSHIP:
 
sincover said:
*Science*
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Lol nice job mate, but your affirming something we already know, passing is what the game is all about. However off the ball speeds are true to the players stats so I imagine attackers will reach the ball before a defender will in an attacking situation.
 
Rooney10 said:
don't agree with you sorry.

firstly, you can rush out your keeper if you time it correctly to block the striker that is being passed to.

i'm a sporting person, but I'm strongly against people choosing the type of goals to score against. this type of goals, i love, to be honest. it's exactly the way Arsenal score I think clearly more than half their goals. only because in real-life too, the keeper HAS to cover the near post like in PES, but once the pass is made, it's almost impossible to defend.

Arsenal would've score hundreds more only IF bendtner wasn't as inefficient in slotting shots home.
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I'm lost as to why you fail to see why they chose to make a rule of no cut backs. Despite you actually saying yourself that that type of goal is "almost impossible to defend". :CONFUSE:

Surely you can see why a goal that is "almost impossible to defend" would be seen as a cheap goal and therefore agreed by all to be something not to be used? So that when someone fairly scores an goal through open play and by not trying over and over to force a cutback goal. They're then not scored against by someone who does successfully do that?


Also I'm not in PEEL so I can't talk for them - but I'm assuming that they're not talking about all kinds of cutbacks. If you're on the wing, you pass it to someone, they pass it to the pen spot and you tap it in... I'd think of that as a fair goal. The kind I'd have a problem with and that I assume PEEL may be talking about are the kind that is an obvious attempt at exploiting the game and forcing a goal. The kind where the player against you just spams that tactic for 90 minutes. Not a sporting kind of player at all.
 
sincover said:
Hmm, after some very interesting experiments it seems that there is less deviation between a player with 99 stats when he has the ball and a player with 30 stats when he doesn't have the ball.

Here's how I set up the experiment: The two players (99 and 30) each had to run from the goal line to the half line, both with the ball and without the ball. I took 5 separate measurements with each player, then calculated the average (among other things).

Here are my findings:

99 Stats Player
WITH BALL
Dead Sprint (Hold R1)(secs) – 7.23, 7.25, 7.20, 7.27, 7.23
Average Time = 7.24 secs

30 Stats Player
WITHOUT BALL
Dead Sprint (secs) – 7.16, 7.13, 7.16, 7.12, 7.14
Average Time = 7.14 secs

This was very surprising. According to my observations, the 30 stats player, when chasing without the ball, is actually faster.


Here are more results:

99 Stats Player
WITHOUT BALL
Dead Sprint (secs) – 7.0, 7.03, 7.0, 7.02, 7.03
Average Time = 7.02 secs

30 Stats Player
WITH BALL
Dead Sprint (secs) – 9.04, 9.0, 9.01, 8.98, 9.01
Average Time = 9.01 secs

As you can see, the deviation caused by having the ball for the 99 stats player is only ~0.22 secs, while the deviation for the 30 stats player is a whopping ~1.87 secs.

These results suggest that ball possession makes all the difference. I'd wager that as Jimmy said, this system was put into place to stop sprinting abuse. The CPU isn't rubberbanding, when chasing you down, they are simply faster.

Gotta love good old empirical data. :WORSHIP:
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I think it is obvious though that a person having to control a football is going to be somewhat slower than a person who is just having to sprint!!

Common sense would tell you that.
 
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