Manchester United Thread

gerd said:
You're too young to remember, but Ferguson's first YEARS were even worse...
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In Ferguson's first partial season, he took United from 21st to 11th.

In his first full season, he took us to 2nd.

What are you talking about?

Also read this while viewing the history of Ferg: Here’s some nice Manchester United trivia for you. What was Alex Ferguson’s one and only appearance for the United first team? The programme cover above is a rather large clue. During the mid-season tour of Bermuda at the back end of 1987 Fergie came on as a second half substitute in the game against Somerset Cricket Club. Now you know. - See more at: http://footysphere.com/post/13169778853/alex-ferguson-bermuda-man-utd#sthash.zfk4zVLg.dpuf

My dad referee'd that match :) !
 
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Utd fans turned against him and he was very close to being sacked early on. Winning a cup probably saved him. Moyes won't be winning the FA Cup this year but he can still win the Wenger Cup. That will be enough to keep him in the job for a while.
 
Actually, I'd be surprised if he was sacked. Utd gave him a 6 year contract and 65m to spend thus far. Also, Utd are different, or so we're told, so they've really got to give him at least 2 or 3 seasons before even contemplating sacking him.
 
I just hope there's a clause in that 6 year contract that if he's unable to qualify for the champions league two seasons running he gets the boot.
I hate these comparisons with how Ferguson was given time then so should Moyes. Simple fact is however you look at it that Moyes has inherited a championship winning team and although we've lowered our expectations for him we should at the very least be in the mix for the champions league spots.
 
The pure and simple fact is that most of the fans in here are glory hunters.
When Moyes was appointed, most of you realized that he needed time and verbally wrote that he should have at least a couple of seasons...

It seems that the fans at Old Trafford still support Moyes...that is what i hear and read in the papers....

You guys have become so accostumed to winning.

Now some will reply that the quality of the football is bad. It has beenvery poor since Ronaldo left...
 
All these guys saying that Moyes should go, who would they replace him with? Because it's all very well saying sack the manager, but if there isnt a credible alternative then isn't in premature?
 
I think they secretly want Mourinho.
Speaking of attractive football...

No serious, good question by edmundo.

Who ?

If i had to choose one manager who really impressed me in England the last years, than it is a former Chelsea manager: that season under Ancelotti, they were great.
In any other club ANcelotti would still have been manager...
 
Considering how much Moyes comments get picked to pieces by people, I think perhaps a politician is wanted :P

I don't really know what to say after the Stoke game, I honestly think the players were trying at least, perhaps too hard, running around absolutely aimlessly at times.
 
Wilko22 said:
I don't really know what to say after the Stoke game, I honestly think the players were trying at least, perhaps too hard, running around absolutely aimlessly at times.
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Unless we start to pass the ball from the goalkeeper/defence to the central midfielders and then to the attacking four, we're not gonna get any better than this. Our defenders pointlessly hoof the ball forward all the time and no amount of running around could make our game better.

I also think, as I've said in the past, that the constant overuse of the wings is hurting us immensely, we have players like Mata, Rooney, Kagawa and Januzaj who on paper are some of the best attacking midfielders in the league and we're wasting their most valuable skill - the variety which they could offer. We're so predictable that even the weakest defences in the league manage to deal with us... we can't let that happen with these fantastic players. Our style needs a major overhaul and Moyes is the one to expect this from. So if he doesn't see what I'm saying now, then we're in for a "treat" (and he honestly comes across as rather clueless during his interviews, at least to me...):)
 
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gerd said:
The pure and simple fact is that most of the fans in here are glory hunters.
When Moyes was appointed, most of you realized that he needed time and verbally wrote that he should have at least a couple of seasons...

It seems that the fans at Old Trafford still support Moyes...that is what i hear and read in the papers....

You guys have become so accostumed to winning.

Now some will reply that the quality of the football is bad. It has beenvery poor since Ronaldo left...
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That's an incredibly terrible post Gerd, yes were glory hunters because falling from Champions to 7th/8th should somehow be acceptable and unless were absolutely fine with that were just all glory hunters.

The Old Trafford crowd is behind the team and trying to remain positive which it should, I have my opinion of Moyes but I certainly wouldn't boo him or anything of that ilk i'd just get behind the team

Gerd who here say we should be winning the title for him to remain in a job? again something which you've plucked from thin air.

as well as your observations of Sir Alex being quite some way off, yes he was potentially about to be sacked before winning the FA Cup but the difference between were SAF starting building Manchester United to where he was trying to take us is very different to where Moyes found himself and where he's taking us.
 
Younggun, first of all: if that post offended you (or other people here): i'm sorry. That was not my intention.
It never is.

I also never said that according to the fans Moyes should be sacked if Man Utd would not be champions.

But now it is becoming clear that they don't accept a place outside the top 4.

That is IMO unreasonable and unrealistic.

There are a couple of arguments to sustain my reasoning:

5 or 6 seasons ago, it would have been unacceptable for a team like Man Utd to end outdie de the top 4. The top 4 consisted of the 4 teams that were much stronger than the rest: Arsenal, Man utd, Chelsea and Liverpool.
Since then the top 4 has changed.
First there was Spurs that ended as 4th.
And after that (and much more serious): the emergence of Manchester City.
At the time there was a top 5: 3 of the classic top four teams, Manchester City and Spurs (don't forget that last year Spurs ended just outside the top 4 with their best result ever, so one mogyht say that Spurs is becoming a contender).

What happened meanwhile ?

City and Chelsea reïnforced squads that already were among the best in Europe.
Liverpool once again has a squad worthy of a top 4 place.
Spurs bought loads of players.
Everton have also become top 4 contenders.

What happened with United ?

In the the summer transfer window they bought Fellaini. Fellaini has problems, injuries and he has also difficulties to adapt.
Rooney wanted to go to Chelsea or another club and was injured.
Van Persie has become the player he has always been except for the two last seasons: an injury prone player.
In Januzaj you have a very good player, but he is too young to be the influential player he can become.
You have a very good GK, and you have Carrick who is perhaps the most underrated player in the EPL.

The rest of the team is not good enough: Vidic and Rio are well passed their best. Valencia is not a player who can change the outcome of matches ( imo he's better than what people here write about him). Giggs should have stopped and is maybe too influential.
Smalling and Jones seem not good enough.

Do you really think that Man United's squad (before the arrival of Mata) is stronger than othe top 4 contenders ?

Who are the other top 4 contenders ?

Well: Man City and Chelsea are clearly out of reach. Their squad is much stronger than the other teams' squad.

Arsenal have Özil, they have a strong squad in depth and in Cazorla and Ramsey, two of the outstanding players of the last seasons. On top of that they have with Koscielny and Mertesacker a couple of fantastic CB's.

Those 3 clubs are out of reach.

So the battle for 4th place is between: Liverpool, Everton, Spurs and Man Utd.

If i'm completely honest with you, of those 4 clubs Man Utd have the weakest squad (before Mata came and i'm not so sure now either).

Do you really think Moyes is underachieving ?

IMO a seventh place would not be a huge surprise (i'm not saying that United will end up 7th).

For some reason all those clubs (except Spurs) are much stronger this season than last season. And United is weaker because they changed manager (not because of Moyes, but because they changed manager).

Perhaps the only mistake Moyes made was that he didn't play hard to get and asked for a very high transfer budget. A more high profile manager like Mourinho might have done that (but Spurs' case proves that it is not a guarantee for success).

Considering all this, i don't think it Man Utd is underachieving.
Considering all this the only thing that is baffling is how this team was able to win the EPL last season (and this with such a large margin).
 
The thing about Ancelotti and Mourinho is both are just starting new jobs at big clubs this season, would they realistically join Man Utd if they got rid of Moyes (either now or even this summer)?

You're left with a choice of out of work managers who have been sacked (which isnt a ringing endorsement of them) like AVB, "retired" managers who probably wouldnt want to work 3-5 years on rebuilding a team (like Heynkes, Hiddink even Fergie) or trying to persuade a manager from another club to leave and join Man Utd (someone like maybe Laudrup or Martinez) but it would be hard sell to get these managers to abandon a sucessful club mid season and jump ship to Man Utd who season seems to have petered out.

There might be more candidates available after the World Cup, but for now, mid-season, I dont see any other realistic candidates who look better than Moyes.
 
How the mighty have fallen... I remember Scholes n others saying Mutd w'd never go so long w/o a trophy like Arsenal. As painful the truth was at that moment and still is . We never finished out of the top 4 w/ all the transition (Stadium/players moving)we endured. I still think Wenger wouldn't leave now that the foundation & walls are built.
 
bebo said:
How the mighty have fallen... I remember Scholes n others saying Mutd w'd never go so long w/o a trophy like Arsenal. As painful the truth was at that moment and still is . We never finished out of the top 4 w/ all the transition (Stadium/players moving)we endured. I still think Wenger wouldn't leave now that the foundation & walls are built.
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To be fair, we have at least, what, 8 years and counting to not go that long ;) We did win a fairly large trophy less than a year ago, despite the memory of football fans.

@ Gerd - Our squad isn't perfect by any means, but that's no excuse for the football we're playing. If you let Mata, Rooney and RVP out for a kick around on the beach they'd look more composed, creative and coherent than they did against Stoke. You just have to look at the impact that Moyes has had on individual players in the team:

Carrick - is awful this year. Was player of the season behind RVP last year.
Cleverley - Is not a footballer
Rafael - best RB in the league last year, or at least in the discussion, this year defending is suicidal and offering little going forward
Evans - Quietly led our defence to the league title this year. Now is good for one goal-giving mistake a match

And those are just the 'Moyes-type' players - the ones who are rough tumble and try hard despite their skill base. Hernandez, Kagawa, Nani and so forth - don't even go there, they're practically not footballers anymore.

Literally the only two players looking better under Moyes' regime are Rooney (who does what he does for himself only) and Janujaz, who to be fair was pretty awesome at reserve level last year.

As I've said before, if Moyes gave any hint whatsoever that we were building towards something, United fans would give him two seasons. But every week we get worse in every way. As Einstein said, doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result is the definition of insanity. Why should we have faith in Moyes? What single thing he has done in his year of United management to show that he's the right man?
 
At least give him a chance til next season. He'll have the summer to spend more time with them, plus see what players he might bring in. This time next year I think we all should have a much better idea of his capabilities.
 
I think that's what will happen. Moyes will get the summer.

And to be fair, he might be the man to clear out the 'deadwood'.

I still rate Fellaini and think he'll come good, so the additions of those two can't be scoffed at.

But I just desperately hope we start playing some decent football at some stage.
 
He has yet to even show the qualities he was known for at Everton and has yet to put out a properly organised Man Utd side on the pitch.

I do wonder what we do in training, even in Fergie's last few seasons. There is no cohesive movement between players, no understanding, no organisation.

Watching Simeone's Atletico this season and the gap in just basic organisation on the pitch between us and them is just astonishing.

I wouldn't be bothered about this inevitable decline if we at least played some fluid, entertaining football but we are a long way from even doing that at the moment.
 
YoungGun_UK said:
He'd be a candidate for the job to be honest.
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I guess you mean Simeone ?
When i read abou's post, i immediately was thinking about Simeone as a very good candidate for the United job. But i don't think he will leave Atletico at the moment. He can write history with this team...winning La Liga would be a huge success (i still fear they will choke in the end).
 
I still think he needs sometime as many players are still in the Ferguson era. I don't think they're playing as well as they should or can and is really bothered by the way they've been playing lately. I just feel that they haven't truely embraced Moyes' style.

But it really is frustrating watching it. I'm no glory hunter, I stick to my teams no matter if they're good or last (All Toronto sport teams are last in their respective leagues for most of the 30 years I've been there), but I just can't stand my team losing without even trying hard enough or playing near their potential. As past champions to not even in the top 5 is sad.
 
I maybe shouldn't have written about the glory hunters. But you can't deny that clubs who have success do attract glory hunters.
Basically i don't mind them, why shouldn't people be allowed to change clubs ? I did...my club doesn't exist anymore, so i had to choose another one...
It's the gloating that i don't like at all...they are also the first to be negative: the manager sucks, if another club buys Matic, than the the scouting staff sucks...everything sucks... But if the club is doing well again, they are the first roaming other club threads to gloat...as if they have some merits in the success of their club...nada.
 
Oh I agree Gerd, winning attracts fans and glory hunters alike. I know a guy who's a diehard Liverpool fan back then, and now roots for Chelsea cause they win more often now (his exact words). But sadly, a club also makes a lot more money because of such glory hunters.

Apart from the gloating though, aren't all fans sort of glory hunters?? Don't all fans want their teams to win? And so, shouldn't all fans have that right to argue or suggest ways for their team to be better and win?? Be it a new manager, new players, new coaches, etc. But always, patience is the key. I feel this team is underachieving with questionable tactics and player choices, but it takes time for players to adapt to a new manager, and it takes time for the manager to adapt to his players. It will be awful if we don't make it to the CL next year (as a club with such a stature), but if there are no improvements next year, then we can talk about sacking the guy. And who knows, maybe this gap year can help clean the fanbase from some bad unappreciating/gloating fans.

Oh, and Gerd, no offense to what you wrote were taken at all. I think all people are entitled to their opinions and I do agree that some of the Man Utd fans out there are just really out of place sometimes.
 
This the quote the media got that from:

Anderson: "All the players have it. Especially me and Nani, who have been in Manchester for eight years, or other players who have been for a long time in the same place. Sometime the players want to change. Despite Manchester United being a huge club, a club that did everything for us, sometimes a footballer must change a bit and have a different experience, change his football to learn something as well."
 
Gerd i like you but the whole holier than thou attitude can be a tad annoying at times. It would serve you well to take some of the banter on an online sports forum a little less serious. At the end of the day I'm far more concerned about what goes on at work or at home than the way Utd is doing at the moment. Sports is entertainment first and foremost and mostly serves as an escape from the realities of life.. its the reason we like our teams to do well and why schadenfreude is so prevalent when opposing teams d not.
 
That is a very moralistic point of view.
What i'm saying seems coming from and entirely humourless person who takes it all too serious...i don't think it's the case (but i'm obviously biased).
Sometimes there is a fine line between harmless banter, gloating and tribalism (and the last one i really detest, it leads to excesses).
Maybe i'm not cpable to be a real fan and that is why i sometimes don't understand the somtimes blind loyalty of fans for their clubs.
Something i can't graps is the rivals thing between clubs...
Because Spuirs and Arsenal are rivals, me (a Belgian) and a an Argentinian guy from the other side of the world are supposed to be opponents... (the Argentinian is a mere example, there is an Argentine Arsenal fan on this forum, it is not about him).

I happen to like both Arsenal and Spurs (but Spurs a litle bit more). Am i now a bad Spurs fan and (seen from the other side) do i have no right to like Arsenal ?

If Spurs win against Arsenal (it happens now and then) i'm glad, but to me it doesn't make any difference than a win against other teams...when i see footage of some Newcastle and Sunderland in their derby...jesus...those people are brainwashed idiots...

Hope you understand my point of view and that you see that it isn't an holier than thou attitude...the point is that i don't understand it...it just seems a waste of time and energy...
 
gerd said:
That is a very moralistic point of view.
What i'm saying seems coming from and entirely humourless person who takes it all too serious...i don't think it's the case (but i'm obviously biased).
Sometimes there is a fine line between harmless banter, gloating and tribalism (and the last one i really detest, it leads to excesses).
Maybe i'm not cpable to be a real fan and that is why i sometimes don't understand the somtimes blind loyalty of fans for their clubs.
Something i can't graps is the rivals thing between clubs...
Because Spuirs and Arsenal are rivals, me (a Belgian) and a an Argentinian guy from the other side of the world are supposed to be opponents... (the Argentinian is a mere example, there is an Argentine Arsenal fan on this forum, it is not about him).

I happen to like both Arsenal and Spurs (but Spurs a litle bit more). Am i now a bad Spurs fan and (seen from the other side) do i have no right to like Arsenal ?

If Spurs win against Arsenal (it happens now and then) i'm glad, but to me it doesn't make any difference than a win against other teams...when i see footage of some Newcastle and Sunderland in their derby...jesus...those people are brainwashed idiots...

Hope you understand my point of view and that you see that it isn't an holier than thou attitude...the point is that i don't understand it...it just seems a waste of time and energy...
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This seems fair enough, to be honest I've always liked Arsenal (as an example)and loved the way they play football etc. Yet apparently being a United fan I'm not allowed to appreciate that, and even more so this season saying that I have always liked Arsenal on the pitch (not supported them) this makes me a glory hunter, who only likes Arsenal cause they're winning and United aren't. Sometimes it seems fans are more interested in their club than football, even if it means blindly suggesting that their team is better than the rest when they just aren't.
 
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