Manchester United Thread

info0 said:
Malaga was supposed to be long term project to rival Barcelona/Real Madrid in the future... It lasted for how long? ;)

There are clubs which are RICH, but SPEND wisely and there are those, which want instant success no matter the money spent. The 2nd one is the worst shit happening to football in general. There is no such thing as youth academy there, not that they need it anyway when they can buy any player.

That's why I was in awe with Holland teams and France teams back in the days. Growing their OWN players. Right now I think only Barcelona does that with some success ;).
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United are still trying in vain to do this, but all our talented players are being pulled away by money on offer elsewhere -.-
 
Well, that kagawi bloke is a gem! Barca played wonderful and took the ball back once they lost it. I still think the fear factor for them is gone. As a neutral Mutd in the 2nd half was all over them. I think Fergie knows what`s needed Nani and Valencia look sharp. Anderson was better ,e looks healthy ,but Carrick was a beast at the back . Is he a DM or a CM that sits back?

I thought I would see a broken MUTD ,but I`m not sure why everyone was moaning about. Mutd looks certain again for the title, Vidic,Rio ,Nani, Valencia, Kawagai and Rooney looks to be the core.
 
We'll see. City still have a better squad, and Scholes was once again one of our best players.

I recorded the match so will watch when done with work. Will be interested in seeing Kagawa - has gotten good reviews. Also DDG was apparently on form.

Odd pre season though, only 3 goals in 5 matches. Normally we score loads.

Fergie has confirmed Arsenal have our bid for RvP, and that he's blown away by the size of PSG's Moura price tag.
 
De Gea, Vidic, Scholes, Kagawa, Rooney, Wellbeck

vs

Hart, Kompany, Yaya Toure , Silva, Tevez, Aguero


I don't think Utd are certain for the title. Still think we have a stronger core. You signing RVP will make it interesting. TBH, I don't want RVP at City but at the same time I don't really want to see him at Utd! Would be nice if he did a U-turn and stayed at Arsenal as they've made some good signings (particularly Cazorla)
 
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beachryan said:
Agreed, and it's about £70m vs. £120m in transfer fees alone (and City's players are on larger wages) - hardly surprising which set of players is better.
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I don`t know Mutd offers RVP £220k a wk :CONFUSE: plus 20m transfer, for a 29 yrs old. City didn`t offer him that, Fergie will buy up this season that`s for sure. You might want to slow down that big spending parade argument :LOL:
 
bebo said:
I don`t know Mutd offers RVP £220k a wk :CONFUSE: plus 20m transfer, for a 29 yrs old. City didn`t offer him that, Fergie will buy up this season that`s for sure. You might want to slow down that big spending parade argument :LOL:
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No way will United offer RvP more than Rooney (who is on £160k). It's all press garbage at this point.

If anything, the reason Fergie wants RvP is that he is relatively good value given his contract situation.
 
Godotelli said:
You may want to take a look at the cost of the 22 players in the derby. That may surprise you.
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One match. Only counting the starting players. City's 4 strikers alone cost over £110m.

I can't be bothered to add up all the 25 players in the two squads, but using transferleague.co.uk and using the net spend since 2003 (so almost a decade):

City = £405m
United = £100m

You really don't want to try to go down a spend argument as a City fan. Yes, you won the league, mazel tov, but you bought it by spending on a scale that is unprecedented in football. At least acknowledge it.
 
Can't really take too much away from it, since it was a pre-season friendly.

Kagawa really does look like he'll give us a new dimension going forward.

Wonder if we'll see more of Valencia at RB this season?
 
beachryan said:
One match. Only counting the starting players. City's 4 strikers alone cost over £110m.

I can't be bothered to add up all the 25 players in the two squads, but using transferleague.co.uk and using the net spend since 2003 (so almost a decade):

City = £405m
United = £100m

You really don't want to try to go down a spend argument as a City fan. Yes, you won the league, mazel tov, but you bought it by spending on a scale that is unprecedented in football. At least acknowledge it.
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2 matches and yet we still walked them. This is just to point out that the 40 odd million pound difference between the core players listed above isn't such a big deal.

I'm aware that we've spent alot. We've had to fit in 10+ years worth of spending into only a few years. FFP has only accelerated it. And Utd fans can hardly moan about teams spending big.
 
Didn't watch the game, should I bother lads considering it was a 0-0?

not bothered by the Moura deal that much, I mean we offered 30M and looked to have it all wrapped up when PSG run into the room with a €45m bid which is amazing for a 19 year old who has only really burst onto the scene within the last 6 months.

still more dissapointed in losing out on Hazard but again the agent wanted some ridiculous 6M. That's Sanchez, Hazard and Moura that SAF has tried to get in that position and unfortunately unable to get any. :((
 
Position by position of the generic starting XI I imagine we will see next year:

GK Hart £600,000 (rising to £1.5m if specific targets were achieved, which I don't know)
RB Richards Youth Player
CB Kompany £6m
CB Lescott £24m
LB Clichy £7m
DM Barry £12m
DM Toure Yaya £24m
AM Silva £24m
AM/ST Tevez (disputedly) £45m, see all the legal fees paid besides his transfer fee.
ST Aguero £38m

Man City grand total: £180.6m

GK David De Gea £17m
RB Rafael £2.6m (combined fee for the twins was £5.2m, 50-50 split seemed logical)
CB Vidic £7m
CB Ferdinand £30m
LB Evra £5.5m
CM Carrick £18.6m
CM Scholes Youth
RM Valencia £16m
LM Nani £18m
AM Kagawa £12m (rising to £17m)
ST Rooney £27m (rising to £30m)

Manchester United grand total: £143.7m

A difference of about £36.9m then (not including wages)

I guess this puts it into perspective we pay big, but over a number of years when we have EARNED the cash via constant success.

City spend big in a small time; with money that isn't theirs on retrospect, it's basically a loan the club will never pay back, and when the Sheikh wants that money back he will be willing to sell off the assets quickly.
 
beachryan said:
Kagawa?
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the three I mentioned were going to be used as wide players whereas Kagawa is a central player IMO, we were looking to sign Kagawa and Hazard/Moura confirms that. Kagawa was also someone who was Option 'B' after we missed out on Nasri the previous Summer.
 
Taylor_94 said:
Position by position of the generic starting XI I imagine we will see next year:

GK Hart £600,000 (rising to £1.5m if specific targets were achieved, which I don't know)
RB Richards Youth Player
CB Kompany £6m
CB Lescott £24m
LB Clichy £7m
DM Barry £12m
DM Toure Yaya £24m
AM Silva £24m
AM/ST Tevez (disputedly) £45m, see all the legal fees paid besides his transfer fee.
ST Aguero £38m

Man City grand total: £180.6m

GK David De Gea £17m
RB Rafael £2.6m (combined fee for the twins was £5.2m, 50-50 split seemed logical)
CB Vidic £7m
CB Ferdinand £30m
LB Evra £5.5m
CM Carrick £18.6m
CM Scholes Youth
RM Valencia £16m
LM Nani £18m
AM Kagawa £12m (rising to £17m)
ST Rooney £27m (rising to £30m)

Manchester United grand total: £143.7m

A difference of about £36.9m then (not including wages)

I guess this puts it into perspective we pay big, but over a number of years when we have EARNED the cash via constant success.

City spend big in a small time; with money that isn't theirs on retrospect, it's basically a loan the club will never pay back, and when the Sheikh wants that money back he will be willing to sell off the assets quickly.
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Stick Phil Jones at RB (considering he tended to be the RB last season) and 25m for Tevez and the difference evaporates.

Utd were spending big in the 80s before their main success. Don't get me wrong, obviously Utd are a huge club but it doesn't really reflect the success pre-92. Other factors helped Utd's worldwide appeal which is where alot of the money comes from.

Whether we like it or not, City had a short timeframe to catch up. And we did pay over the odds on a few players but that's over now. Like any business endeavour you will end up overpaying and you won't begin to see financial returns for a few years. City will eventually become self sustaining and the owners aren't going anywhere despite what rival fans say/hope for.

On a more general note, it's difficult to talk about football and money without talking about global economics. In many ways since the 80's it has been much easier for clubs who happened to be successful since that period to grow and sustain that success thanks to the opening up of markets worldwide.
 
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RVP deal stalling, can't say I'm surprised.. Can you imagine Wenger and Fergie trying to speak to each other.. Firstly there is the accents.
Then there is the potential child like name calling, the 'remember when we did this' arguments and the toys being thrown out the pram, Wenger ordering Pizza and Soup Fergie leaving the room to change his suit grabbing a bottle of water so Wenger can stress a bit more.. Wow.. I want to be in te room for this one ;)
 
Taylor_94 said:
RVP deal stalling, can't say I'm surprised.. Can you imagine Wenger and Fergie trying to speak to each other.. Firstly there is the accents.
Then there is the potential child like name calling, the 'remember when we did this' arguments and the toys being thrown out the pram, Wenger ordering Pizza and Soup Fergie leaving the room to change his suit grabbing a bottle of WHISKY so Wenger can stress a bit more.. Wow.. I want to be in te room for this one ;)
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;)
 
Godotelli said:
Stick Phil Jones at RB (considering he tended to be the RB last season) and 25m for Tevez and the difference evaporates.

Utd were spending big in the 80s before their main success. Don't get me wrong, obviously Utd are a huge club but it doesn't really reflect the success pre-92. Other factors helped Utd's worldwide appeal which is where alot of the money comes from.

Whether we like it or not, City had a short timeframe to catch up. And we did pay over the odds on a few players but that's over now. Like any business endeavour you will end up overpaying and you won't begin to see financial returns for a few years. City will eventually become self sustaining and the owners aren't going anywhere despite what rival fans say/hope for.

On a more general note, it's difficult to talk about football and money without talking about global economics. In many ways since the 80's it has been much easier for clubs who happened to be successful since that period to grow and sustain that success thanks to the opening up of markets worldwide.
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I don't want to go down this road again, but just a quick question - do you honestly believe that City will ever generate enough revenues to cover their costs organically? I.e., through commercial means and not through a rich benefactor?

They'll be close to losing £200m in OPERATING losses this season alone. They would need to outstrip Manchester United's entire revenue by some 20%.

I just don't believe there is that much headroom in the market that City can move into. If City want to continue to pay the highest wages in world football (second to Barca this year I believe) then they will always need an external source to help pay for them, because City will not overtake United/Arsenal in terms of revenue in the next 10-15 years. Won't happen.

Chelsea said they'd be profitable by 2010 - look at them now.
 
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beachryan said:
I don't want to go down this road again, but just a quick question - do you honestly believe that City will ever generate enough revenues to cover their costs organically? I.e., through commercial means and not through a rich benefactor?

They'll be close to losing £200m in OPERATING losses this season alone. They would need to outstrip Manchester United's entire revenue by some 20%.

I just don't believe there is that much headroom in the market that City can move into. If City want to continue to pay the highest wages in world football (second to Barca this year I believe) then they will always need an external source to help pay for them, because City will not overtake United/Arsenal in terms of revenue in the next 10-15 years. Won't happen.

Chelsea said they'd be profitable by 2010 - look at them now.
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Last I looked, both Chelsea and Madrid have a higher wage bill than City. Hopefully we can get rid of players like Ade and Santa cruz which should help free up funds.

Eventually we will be self sustaining. Don't know how long it will take but revenue will only increase and with the academy getting huge invenstment we should see more top class players coming through the ranks

There's huge markets open to City (and all clubs), eg. China, India, South America and the Middle East
 
Don't swap Phil Jones for Rafael there Godotelli, you'd lose the argument. Wasn't he signed for over £12m? EDIT: Oops, I mean you'd win the argument! haha :D

I saw what Ferguson said about bidding for RvP and having Arsenal stonewalling the deal. Both managers are playing their cards close to their chest.

Arsenal did a pretty good job to cover for Van Persie in advance, so Wenger is not in a rush to make this happen. Also ideally, he would be looking to sell Robin to Juve instead.

In the end, I think he will go to the highest bidder. Now Arsene Wenger knows United are loaded with cash (seeing that high bid they got rejected for Lucas) and will ask for the full price he initially wanted.
 
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Mourinho: "Kaka can leave for the right price"
We could do worse, given that he is a little older and a little slower he can be shaped into the CM we want so bad, and I can't see him costing more than £15-20million
 
Taylor_94 said:
Mourinho: "Kaka can leave for the right price"
We could do worse, given that he is a little older and a little slower he can be shaped into the CM we want so bad, and I can't see him costing more than £15-20million
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Classy guy, but doesn't have the legs, tenacity nor awareness to be a central/ deep midfielder which is what we want.

Sadly, Kaka's time is past, imo.

Re: RvP - I wonder if Fergie isn't doing Arsenal a favor, like he did with Sao Paolo. No way we were going to spend 30m euros on Lucas Moura, but by being so public with the bid (which is very un-United) he bumped up the price.

I think this whole thing is a sh*t show ahead of the IPO tomorrow. We've never been a team vocal about our transfer targets, and Fergie has never behaved this way before.

I think we're broke, and Kagawa and Powell is it for the year. And we're 1 injury away (Carrick) from complete and utter disaster.

Also, what is up with our young defenders being made of balsa wood? Jones, Smalling and Evans all injured after the summer off? Come on lads, harden up!
 
Looks like we'll be starting the season with an injury crisis, and just 3 senior defenders...
http://www1.skysports.com/football/news/11667/7975558/Fergie-Carrick-in-defence
Jones, Smalling & Evans are currently, meaning we'll likely have to put Carrick in defence.
With Rafael being in the Olympic team that probably means that Valencia will start the season at RB.

Maybe we should be looking at a De Rossi style utility player (doubt we have any hope of actually getting him) instead of RVP.
 
Godotelli said:
Eventually we will be self sustaining. Don't know how long it will take but revenue will only increase and with the academy getting huge invenstment we should see more top class players coming through the ranks

There's huge markets open to City (and all clubs), eg. China, India, South America and the Middle East
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It's this attitude from City fans that worries me. Eventually? Chelsea are losing more money this season than they did 6 seasons ago. And they've been on tours in the US, the far east. They've marketed there. And yet, they still don't make anywhere near enough revenue to cover their costs.

Why is City any different? Because of your ELITE DEVELOPMENT SQUAD? Chelsea went that road too. They paid £10m for a player you've never heard of and has never played a senior match (Piazon). And yet, no youth players are coming through. Because success is demanded today, not tomorrow.

What is eventually? 15 years? That would push the price tag up to something like £2.5bn in LOSS. Say you then start making a profit. A healthy one in footballing terms, maybe £10m a season cold hard cash profit. That would take you 250 seasons to pay back the 'investment'.

So please, City fans, stop deluding yourselves. Your spending and wages are not sustainable, you will never be profitable. Just grow up and admit you're like a trust fund baby. There's less shame in admitting the only reason you're driving the hottest car, drinking at the best bars and banging the hottest chicks is because your daddy was good at something. Don't pretend you are.

Note, I, of course, would love to drive those cars, drink at those bars and, wife permitting, bang those chicks. ;)
 
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beachryan said:
It's this attitude from City fans that worries me. Eventually? Chelsea are losing more money this season than they did 6 seasons ago. And they've been on tours in the US, the far east. They've marketed there. And yet, they still don't make anywhere near enough revenue to cover their costs.

Why is City any different? Because of your ELITE DEVELOPMENT SQUAD? Chelsea went that road too. They paid £10m for a player you've never heard of and has never played a senior match (Piazon). And yet, no youth players are coming through. Because success is demanded today, not tomorrow.

What is eventually? 15 years? That would push the price tag up to something like £2.5bn in LOSS. Say you then start making a profit. A healthy one in footballing terms, maybe £10m a season cold hard cash profit. That would take you 250 seasons to pay back the 'investment'.

So please, City fans, stop deluding yourselves. Your spending and wages are not sustainable, you will never be profitable. Just grow up and admit you're like a trust fund baby. There's less shame in admitting the only reason you're driving the hottest car, drinking at the best bars and banging the hottest chicks is because your daddy was good at something. Don't pretend you are.

Note, I, of course, would love to drive those cars, drink at those bars and, wife permitting, bang those chicks. ;)
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With regards to youth, just because Chelsea have so far failed to bring through quality it does not mean that City will follow suit. Suarez will likely begin to feature this season and he'll save a lot of money in the future

As for your calculations, you can't just assume that we'll record losses at the same rate in the future as we have in the past coupld of years. That's just silly.

Ranting about something (that the likes of Aguero are at City because we have lots of money) which is self evident and you tell me/us to grow up? No City fan ignores ADUG's impact. Pretending otherwise is just dishonest and an excuse to rant.
 
Godotelli said:
With regards to youth, just because Chelsea have so far failed to bring through quality it does not mean that City will follow suit. Suarez will likely begin to feature this season and he'll save a lot of money in the future

As for your calculations, you can't just assume that we'll record losses at the same rate in the future as we have in the past coupld of years. That's just silly.

Ranting about something (that the likes of Aguero are at City because we have lots of money) which is self evident and you tell me/us to grow up? No City fan ignores ADUG's impact. Pretending otherwise is just dishonest and an excuse to rant.
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To point 1 - that's some what fair, but I guess we'll have to wait and see if City actually bring through any young players. Traditionally it's something the club has been good at that but that's been abandoned during the purchasing spree.

To point 2 - your costs are increasing at record pace, and revenues are clearly not covering these as your losses are also growing year on year. So which is more sensible - City is suddenly going to grow revenues faster than wage bills or that things are going to continue as they have? (and this is operating cost related, not transfer fees - you mention Ade/Santa but Tevez's league winning bonus ALONE is probably as big as both of them). Fine, in your mind when will City turn their c. £200m operating loss of last season around? Chip away £50m a year (which would be impressive)? That'd get you to about 2016 to get things profitable, after which time the ADUG would have spent around £1.5bn 'investment'. Say you made more than any other club in history per year at £100m profit. It would STILL take til 2025 for ADUG to be cash positive. It. Is. Not. An. Investment.

To point 3 - I'm not sure who you're referring to here, but I agree it's self evident that had ADUG not lobbed over a clean billion Sergio Aguero would only be in Manchester to occasionally play against United in the CL.
 
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