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Liverpool Thread

Re: Liverpool Thread

tiktiktiktik,
But it's all due to the tv-money and the way CL money is divided (the clubs who get most tv money get most money of the Cl too, when Porto won it, there were more than 10 (and i think it was more than 16) who got more money at the end of the Cl).
Rich clubs keep on getting richer...

And yes Real Madrid is the worst possible example, but after them i'm afraid it's the English clubs.

Did not know that Spurs are financially sound, i always thought they overstretched in money spending.

You talk about Villa, but what will happen if Lerner has enough? And the fact that Villa can't get through the glass ceiling to enter CL and is financially sound says it all to me (but if you are right, SPurs are an exception...anyway this will be once oof since Man City are up there now).
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

I don't know why you guys are always saying Real is the worst example ever. Look, in the last financial year they got profits. PROFITS!!! With all the amount of investment was one of the fewest club in the world to end up a year in the green zone.
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

But aren't we mixing arguments Gerd? You are saying the succes of clubs is "unfair", I see that as the sugardaddies and the goverment sponsorships, you see that as the financial windfalls the clubs have had due to sporting and commercial succes.

I agree the CL and tv money is totally screwing football. We are very unlikely to see the likes of Ajax repeat their 95 succes with their own youth players coming through. They all just get picked off because of the huge financial gap between the leagues. That is really sad, but also football has grown into such a business that it has evolved and any attempts to "even" the playing field won't happen.

However the anti english sentiment is unfair, they have been the top clubs for the past 5 years (maybe that's already over) but before that it was Spanish and before that it was Italian. England have always been a bit behind when it came to European football but their commercial succes enabled them to develope and buy top quality players from abroad. Before Abramovich came to Chelsea they were basing their succes on CL player "hasbeens", Deschamps, Gullit, Zola, Vialli were already past their peak. It was only Manu that could afford to buy the very best back then. Chelsea got unfairly financed, but Liverpool had their succes due to a clever manager and were "reasonably" sound financially. They were getting in debt but at the same time their commercial exploits were crap.
The past few years Liverpool have made a profit from transfers and from income, it's just the owners that have screwed it up. Arsenal have based their succes on a top manager and a very good youth policy coupled with a new stadium and good use of their former ground. So out of the top 4 clubs from the past 5 years only Chelsea were really unbalanced.

Spurs are earning their money through very good business as far as I can tell, they aren't a club in debt and have a smart businessman as owner/chairman. As for Villa, Lerner hasn't really done anything financially over the top. The reason O'Neill left is because the 25mil for Milner was just too good a deal that Lerner wanted to go through to keep the club financially healthy. If anything they seem like a very solid club aswell.

The huge amount of debt both Liverpool and Manu have is down to the owners. I find it amazing that they can even buy companies in such a way. It's like us buying a home for 1mil. euro (even though we can only spend 250.000 based on our income) and that the extra money and rent that needs to be paid is "guarenteed" by the price rise in 30 years. For some frightning reading, and an insight to how both the clubs are being raped read this;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/davidbond/2010/10/crunching_the_numbers_at_old_t.html

Manu have had nearly 500mil taken out of the club just to be owned by those c#$ts! And you are saying these clubs have an unfair advantage?! :D They are both being screwed for being succesfull and having history!

@ The special one;

Found this online, seems a reasonable overview of the financial differences;
The reason is Real’s massive revenue stream. Deloitte has named them the richest team in the word for the last four seasons (Manchester United is second) with revenues of €366m (£290m). One large source of revenue is gate receipts. Real have the third-highest average attendance in Europe.
Another huge revenue stream is Real’s TV contract. In 2006, Madrid they signed a seven-year deal with MediaPro guaranteeing €1.1 billion for their domestic league TV rights. That works out at about £135 million a season from their domestic league rights, which is more than twice what United receive.
Another advantage that Madrid has over its European competitors are the tax laws in Spain. Spain’s tax laws mean foreign players pay tax at about 23 percent for the first five years that they are in the country. So if Real wants to pay Kaka £8 million after tax, it would cost them about £10 million a year, whereas it would cost Manchester United £16 million (thanks to the new 50 percent top marginal rate in England).
Over five years, that’s a difference of £30 million on just one player. Multiply that £30 million by three or four players and it is easy to see why Real can afford the salaries they can.
Finally, there’s Real’s status as, effectively, a non-profit social trust. This means they do not need to generate £30 million a year just to service their debt (like United). Most of Madrid’s dent is held with local banks, many of whom are under political and social pressure not to tighten the screws. Real are too big and too important to fail or to come under the kind of debt pressures that affect traditional clubs. The club’s social, political, and economic significance dwarfs that of any other club in the world.
So in other words it's a combination of huge marketing and commercial succes with a free pass to get in debt with the banks.
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

Tiktik...,

I have nothing against English clubs. Spurs are my favourite team and the Premiership is the my favourite league (although i also love Italian football). I would have said the same thing at the time the Italian clubs were advantaged...

To me the most important paragraph in your last post is the one about Ajax...that's why i talk about unfair competition.

I don't agree that the commercial success of football stands in the way of a more even competition. Look at the NBA. This league is even more commercially exploited, but the NBA board knows very well that it isn't good that there isn't enough competition. Football could do exactly the same (the draft, salary caps, open accounting).

And i'm pretty sure in 10-15 years Russian clubs will be the biggest clubs in the world. Most fans of English clubs will agree with me then.
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

True, but that's the way of the world. And as football isn't a national sport (lik the NBA, and a few other US sports) it will be impossible to do imo. You can already see how scared UEFA is about the G20 (or whatever they are called) as they probably account for about 60-70% of football's income. Teams like Blackpool and sadly now Ajax aswell just don't matter on a bigger scale. It's all about the big teams in every country and in Europe.

For me the accounting issue brought up earlier in the thread is a good ruling in theory, however it will always be relative to a club meaning the big ones will continue to have the wealth and power but it will stop the ridiculous cash injections seen making the game even worse imo. Won't do much for the small cubs though...Actually it will make it next to impossible for the likes of ManCity to become what they are today, if you are not allowed to run at a loss and have a max. of 55% of your turnover go to wages it will be impossible for any team to break in and keep themselves there. Unless they have an amazing manager, but I doubt they could sustain it.

Another reason why I am getting more and more bored with football. There is very little left of sporting achievement between the debt, the spineless authorities (both financial and sporting) and the whoring players.
 
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Re: Liverpool Thread

I find it intriguing that there is so much flip-flopping in the
news about LFC's takeover.

First Broughton announces the board have agreed to sell LFC to NESV...
that they are great for the club, etc,etc...

Then there is the scheduling of the court-case which can decide
whether the sale will go through...

Broughton says he is confident it will go through...but you never know.

Hicks says he wont sell....RBS has a deadline...so that means it is possible
we can go into administration....

The PL first says there wont be a 9 pt deduction....

Now suddenly we hear that the 9 pt deduction is a possibility...

Broughton also says the same thing.....

NESV sources says they will walk away from the deal if that happens...

Purslow says it will not happen....he has not even talked to them
about it....which is ridiculous....how could they not go over such
a contingency....

In the meanwhile Hodgson says Liverpool won't be relegated...as if
that was some massive achievement.......

It's a mess.....and I hope after all the smoke clears....we are left
with good owners...a good manager...and a team who wants to play for LFC.
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

NESV have said that they're in it for the long term. If they're really going to pull out if we get a 9pt deduction, then their "long term" commitment isn't that great. It's probably just media speculation though, trying to fill the sports pages while there's not much else happening.
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

I'm actually more worried about things on the pitch. The takeover won't fix it immediately. And with a 9 point reduction, relegation IS ON THE CARDS, it really is that bad. Hard to believe when you look at the quality in the squad, but there is no cohesion between the players, injury concerns, and weakeness in depth in quite a few areas. Hodgson IS too negative, and his failure to sign another striker in the transfer window is gonna prove costly. NGog will flourish in a high flying team, but for him to yet again (on his own) lead the line during Torres's lengthy injury spells won't do him any good.

I do wonder if the players have been under even more immense pressure to get off to a good start in the league because they knew a 9 point reduction was inevitable. That pressure combined with a tricky fixture calendar.
 
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Re: Liverpool Thread

This week could be brilliant with a win in the courts and a derby win. On the other hand it could be the worst imaginable.

Interesting to note that the court case isn't LFC Board vs Hicks, it's RBS PLC vs Hicks & others.

I really doubt RBS and Broughton would have gone this far if they didn't think they would win, Hicks is different, he's trying to hold on to the club for every last penny, but Broughton and RBS could walk away without too much damage apart from reputation. I wasn't that confident when it was Broughton vs Hicks because i always thought that fat texan cunt would have some slimy way out, but now i know it's RBS vs Hicks i think (hope) he's fucked.

Who'd have thought the most important fixture of our season wouldn't involve any of our players. Royal Bank of Scotland PLC Vs. Hicks & others, 12 October 2010 - Kick off time: 10:30am
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

UJSupanova said:
This week could be brilliant with a win in the courts and a derby win. On the other hand it could be the worst imaginable.

Interesting to note that the court case isn't LFC Board vs Hicks, it's RBS PLC vs Hicks & others.

I really doubt RBS and Broughton would have gone this far if they didn't think they would win, Hicks is different, he's trying to hold on to the club for every last penny, but Broughton and RBS could walk away without too much damage apart from reputation. I wasn't that confident when it was Broughton vs Hicks because i always thought that fat texan cunt would have some slimy way out, but now i know it's RBS vs Hicks i think (hope) he's fucked.

Who'd have thought the most important fixture of our season wouldn't involve any of our players. Royal Bank of Scotland PLC Vs. Hicks & others, 12 October 2010 - Kick off time: 10:30am
Click to expand...
Yes, you are right. Also, if it wasnt the truth, Broughton wouldnt have been telling to the media that he has papers that legitimate him as the only person that can change the board. I think there is no reason to not be optimistic.
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

Bloody hell, more twists and turns. Now a Singapore billionaire is putting in a bid, and it's higher than NESV's!

I just want all of this to be over :(

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-11518079

Edit:
His interest in English football stems from his ownership of several Manchester United themed bars in Asia - which have persuaded him that there is huge global potential for making money from top-flight English football.
Click to expand...

:DOH:
 
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Re: Liverpool Thread

northstandhero said:
After all the shit that Broughton's had on Forums and RAWK it's weird that you're talking about him now as some kind of knight in shining armour.
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Yeah just shows how fickle and ignorant football fans can be! He got called allsorts and accused of being there to bring the club down with H+G, mainly just for being a Chelsea fan! :LOL:
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

northstandhero said:
After all the shit that Broughton's had on Forums and RAWK it's weird that you're talking about him now as some kind of knight in shining armour.
Click to expand...

No that's not true is it?

All we're sayins is that we need him to win his case to get the two greedy cunts out of our club. Nobody is saying he's a knight in shining armour, just that he clearly now seems to be fighting for the best interests of the club rather than the owners.

Plus, i don't know how many times i have to say this, but RAWK is a fucking awful site and not a good representation of LFC fans.
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

Good luck tomorrow. Will be a travesty of Hicks somehow wins. Ugh. Football is football, not a business. It's for players, not lawyers. Sigh.
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

It's RBS v Hicks tomorrow, we haven't got a date to go against Hicks yet. Depending on what happens with RBS's court decision tomorrow to check the legality of the underwritings, we're not sure what's going to happen and when it's going to be Liverpool FC v Hicks.

Lots of doubt about how genuine this Peter Lim story is, with people suggesting it might be a Hicks PR stunt so that he can say to the courts that he was right and that the club is being sold at an undervalued price.
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

UJSupanova said:
Plus, i don't know how many times i have to say this, but RAWK is a fucking awful site and not a good representation of LFC fans.
Click to expand...

a bit harsh. There are a few nutters on there granted, but a lot of the negativity towards Broughton and Purslow stems from the fact they are career minded people who have been brought in to oversee a job, not neccessarily in the interestes of the fans, but themselves.

That job has taken a lot longer than expected, and things are coming to the boil almost on "deadline day"

Broughton has been saying all the right things, but I'm not exactly singing his praises.

I don't understand how Hicks et co can demand a profit from a sale conisdering they failed to deliver any of their promises and have effectively put us into administration. They can blame the credit crunch all they want, but they key word in that is "credit". Everything they did and planned to do was borrowing against the club. We need pure cash injection, and whoever does it, WILL get a return, if the investment is sincere and proper. This club has massive potential for not only making quite a few people extremely weathly, but also to compete consistently at the highest level.
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

All the Takeover headlines has taken the focus off the pitch
where our team and manager have been atrocious.

After all takeover/administration goes through....the focus will
once again return to the team....
Hodgson needs to be replaced....simply delaying it will not help...
He has not done anything to suggest a turnaround....we have got
much worse since last year....the signings have been atrocious.

I looked at Rafa's and Houllier's first seasons in charge..and both
of them had mixed openings...but with more wins...and they were
definitely playing better football...they were not getting worse.
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

i have a few questions about liverpool guys, as i'm hearing some contradictory news... i figured that was the best place to ask. :))

1- is this KOP a newco or is it a holding company?
2- is liverpool KOP's only asset or does kop have a controlling interest over other companies aswell?
3- is KOP liverpool's only owner or does KOP only holds a controllig interest over the club?
4- is liverpool in debt, or is KOP the only company who's risking a cross default? (that's most important).

the italian media don't really care that much about liverpool's situation (they hardly covered it so far) and the english media come out with very confusing infos.... one day they talk about rbs acquireing the club (wich would imply that KOP is the only company risking default... in wich case there's no way liverpool is risking administration and point deduction).....
and the following day they say that the club might actually risk to go into administration and to get points deduction.....

so if u don't mind, what is exactly going on??? :SS
-----------------------------------------------------------------

also guys, allow me a bit of a criticism.... u see most of u guys would want to see hodgson out..... seriously guys, are u nuts???!!! we're in week 7 for God's sake!!!!! the man is dealing with so many and such serious issues.... any other english coach would now have u with 0 points.... u should be glad u actually managed to make those 6 points, given the situation!

we're talking about a club whose players don't even know who's gonna be their employer in 2 months.... and u're surprised for their lack of fighting spirit? oh come on, just cut them some slack, this is a very tricky situation for them...... much more than it is for u fans.

besides if the problem is the lack of fighting spirit in the players, what are u expecting roy to do?! is that his fault? if the "lack of motivation" (such a bad word btw) comes from the club situation (and not just from the players' mental state) how can u expect roy to change this situation? do u think another manager could do some magic and just have the players forgetting the fact that the club might be risking administration and points deduciton? or maybe another manager could have them forgetting the fact that they don't even know who could be their owner in a few months?..... please, let's be serious. a steady onwership is a most serious concern for the players, because owners are the ones who pay their wages, who negotiate their renewal... it desn't matter how professional u are, u just can't work well in such a situation..... and anyway, even if there wouldn't be any issue at all (i'm gonna try and say this as kindly as possible), it's not like liverpool has a top class team right now.... i mean there's a pretty big gap between your starting 11 and man utd's, chelsea's and arsenal's starting 11.... so even if everything would be going smoothly u shouldn't really expect to have great results.... and when u take into account all the other problems liverpool is facing right now, well u can't really be surprised by this poor start of the season, can u?

sure hodgson isn't exactly a top class manager..... but he's a very good manager.... probably the best english manager..... besides were there better options this summer? were there any world class coaches waiting for a call? no. roy is a good coach, he's english, he knows the league..... and he was available.

yeah he's took some very weird decisions.... but for God's sake, he's a professional!! he's not a fan... u have to realise he knows this game much better than u lot. so if he does something that seems stupid, u gotta imply there's something u don't know.
if he plays some players out of position (and doesn't deliver) how can u suppose he doesn't know their proper position? FFS he's a coach! he's a professional! he does this for a living... and he has done it for years!! he works with those players, he sees them every day in practice...... and u think u might possibly know something he doesn't???!!! that's hilarious.
when he says "i still don't know my players" he doesn't mean that in the true sense of the word.... he means "i still don't know them from a coaching perspective" (wich is absolutely normal, as we're still in the beginning of the season).....he doesn't mean "i don't know liverpool players as u fans".... "knowing a player" for a coach has a completely different meaning than it has for a fan..... none of us knows any player in the sense hodgson means!!! coz as a coach, u don't "know" a player until u coached him. he's just beginning to coach liverpool's players, hence he's getting to know them.

some of u might say "hey i might not know liverpool's players from a coaching perspective, but i would have put the players in their proper position" wich is kinda logic.... so don't u think roy had a good reason to play them out of their position? i don't really wanna sound harsh guys, but coaching in real life is not like playing a FM game. maybe he saw something he didn't like during the week and so tried something bold to shake the players up... who knows. the only thing we know for sure is that he definitely knows the game better than a fan, so if he did that, he had a reason.
besides sometime the difference between a brilliant move and a stupid one is just luck... if u do something unusual and things go smoothly, people label u a genius... if it goes wrong people call u an idiot.... it's not that simple to coach a team really, especially in theese conditions.

another crazy thing is not taking advantage of all the subs available during the game.... that is by all means a wrong move usually.... but then again, if i know that... if u guys know that, don't u think a professional would know that too?
i mean it's not like rafa hasn't done some really crazy stuff during the matches last season.... yet u guys were much more tolerant towards rafa's weird calls...
i understand, rafa is more cool, he's more hyped, he has a better curriculum, he's been with u for years and he's brought u a champions league....... while roy is definitely not cool or hyped and he has just coached liverpool for 7 matches..... but still, given the club's situation, u guys should really cut the guy some slack....

this current liverpool is nothing but the natural evolution of last year's liverpool. i mean, from a neutral point of view, liverpool was really a bad team last season...this summer the club hasn't really improved the squad (u just replaced benayoun with cole, aquilani with meireles and aurelio with insua...it isn't really a step forward).... meanwhile the club situation has gotten worse and u've gone through a coaching change....... seriously guys what where u expecting? did u really think this season would have been better than the previous? and why, since everything suggested the contrary (the change of coach, the club situation, the squad).

if liverpool would have, say, just 3 points more (wich means only one win), u would be 10th in the league, and no one would panic and blame it on roy.... (if anything he would probably be seen as an underrated master of tactics for managing to steady the ship through rough seas).
but instead u're in relegation zone and it looks like the world is coming to an end...... being in relegation zone at this point of the season means absolutely nothing.... because the table is very short and with just 1 single win u might even be right below the europa league zone..... so just calm down and let the man do his job before talking about a new manager..... it takes 1 entire season usually to properly judge a coach's job..... u're already doing this since september FFS. that's just ridiculous.

besides, who would be this master of tactics who could save u from disgrace? is there any top class coach available right now?
do u really think that replacing a coach with the experience and the tactical knowledge of roy hodgson, with kenny daglish would be a good call?!?!?! :CONFUSE: wow!
like oscar wilde used to say "be careful what u wish for... it might come true"

as u will probably understand from the tone of my post, this doesn't want to be a provocation at all. infact i do care about liverpool.... i can't really say u "support" any team in foreign leagues, as i just enjoy the show.... but i can certainly say i do hope liverpool will win a title again as soon as possible as they're a great historic team, with huge tradition, which hasn't been successful in the domestic league for way too long now.
so i'm not having a go at u guys (at all)... i'm just saying "calm down"... it's still the beginning of the season, and given the club situation, u should have expected such a tough start.... the situation is pretty heavy, i certainly realise that, and i also realise that is easy for a fan to get carried away with emotions and ask for a total revolution (even thought there aren't better coaching alternatives available out there and we're still at the beginning of the season).... but that would be just asking for even more troubles.
 
Re: Liverpool Thread

good post Ben :SAL: (I heard Henry from NEVS had tears run down his face during a chant "Walk alone" )
 
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Re: Liverpool Thread

1- is this KOP a newco or is it a holding company?
2- is liverpool KOP's only asset or does kop have a controlling interest over other companies aswell?
3- is KOP liverpool's only owner or does KOP only holds a controllig interest over the club?
4- is liverpool in debt, or is KOP the only company who's risking a cross default? (that's most important).
Click to expand...

From what I understand;
- Kop is a holding company
- Liverpool FC is the only asset
- Sole owner I think, there hasn't been any shareholder meetings since they took over
- Liverpool, at the time were 60mil? in debt but have since been making steady profit every year. The RBS debt is in Kop, not the club.

As for the fan comments, we never expexted this year to be any better, nobody minds Hodgson but then none of us (or the majority) thought he was good enough to manage the club in the first place.
I don't think the main problem is the manager, but it's the players not performing. However so far he seems to have increased this issue with players out of position, not having a plan B when things aren't working (1st sub at 77th min?!) and the team are playing even worse then last season (which seemed impossible). Also so far in nearly every game the team has improved, for about 15-20min in the 2nd half. Watching every game it seems the tactics are wrong and that this improvement is little more then a reaction to getting a bollocking at HT. Agger stating he isn't allowed to "play football" as a defender, Torres being totally isolated and used as a Zamora and the general play just seems to give the impression that the adjusted system/tactics are only making the team play worse. Tbh I can't say I have noticed calls for Roy to be sacked from the decent fans, seems more media nonsense.

I think the main aspects of fans thinking he isn't up to it are;
- Hodgson going off on one about his experience and it working at every club so far in a very defensive manner gives the impression he doesn't have the "balls" to deal with the high level of pressure at a club like Liverpool;
- Not defending his own player (Torres) when Ferguson accused him of cheating! Can you imagine what Rafa/Mourinho/Wenger/etc would have said? If anything you can't allow your players to be attacked in the media, let alone against your most hated rival!

Now for the 2nd one you could say that he has actually played it smartly, within a week it's been forgotten for the most part and if it has been dealt with in-house and there is no need to come out in the media then fine. However waiting a week to do it reeks of being out of his league and just not having the mentality of a big club manager.

I'm not sure which it is, however I can't say he is filling me with confidence when players like Meireles are being played on the wing or at AM. Agger isn't being used, or only at LB, Poulson and Lucas are actually on the pitch together! We have seen two season of Masch and Lucas being the best defensive tactic for the opposition as they totally stifle the team, and now we have an even slower and less energetic guy doing the same things but all worse.
 
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